It's not IF he served. It's when and how much. I got numbers.

[trof]

Mods: Please do not lock or move.
This contains my own perspective and expertise as a former ANG pilot.
Thank you.
trof

OK, LISTEN UP!
Here's HOW MANY DAYS he SHOULD have served.
From the horse's mouth.
ME!
Different duty requirements for pilots.

If I remember correctly, my Air National Guard paychecks came from the U.S. Treasury Department. We were paid quarterly. On the first month of a new quarter, we were paid for the previous quarter.

The Guard doesn't pay you if you aren't there to answer "present".
I should be a simple matter to see how much income Bush received from the Department of Treasury (from his annual tax returns) each year of his Guard obligation:
Total annual income from Air National Guard (Treasury), divided by daily pay rate for a 1st Lt. on flying status (base pay + flight pay), equals number of days served.
May have to be adjusted for time spent on non-flying status (which should NOT have happened, see 2a below).

You can do the math on how much he SHOULD have received, had he been present each time he should have been.
12 REQUIRED monthly drill week-ends a year
24 days = 48 pay periods
(1 day's pay for each 4 hour period) = 48 days pay
12 REQUIRED Flying Training Periods
(FTPs) per quarter X 4 quarters = 48 days pay
2 weeks REQUIRED Annual Summer Encampment = 14 days pay
110 days pay annually

Anything less for each year of his six year obligation following completion of pilot training indicates no-show.

Three more points:

1. It's highly unusual that Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. If you kept
your nose relatively clean, you made 1st Lt. 3 years after your commission
as a 2nd Lt. Two years later, you made Captain. As long as you just put
your time in, it was automatic. That he didn't make Captain prior to his
discharge is very telling. Reason: He wasn't there long enough.

2a. Failing to pass your annual flight physical is one thing.
Failing to even show up for it is ENTIRELY another. It is a direct violation of Air Force and ANG regs. Punishable by disciplinary action, even court martial. The Texas Air National Guard (taxpayers) spent around $1,000,000 on his training. He committed to SIX years of flying AFTER getting his wings.
2b. The ONLY person who can administer an Air Force flight physical exam is a certified Air Force Flight Surgeon. An Air Force doctor. Not "your personal physician", or the Mayo Clinic, or ANYONE, who isn't a flight surgeon.

3. An Honorable Discharge is NOT "evidence" that he served his time. This
is one of the strongest "talking points" used by him and his supporters.
It IS evidence that his commanding officers violated ANG rules and
regulations. It's called "covering one's derriere". Had they NOT given him
an honorable discharge it would have called attention to the fact that they
gave him a pass and pointed up a serious dereliction of duty on their part.

[ewagner]

1. This is the point that I've been trying to make:

1. It's highly unusual that Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. If you kept
your nose relatively clean, you made 1st Lt. 3 years after your commission
as a 2nd Lt. Two years later, you made Captain. As long as you just put
your time in, it was automatic. That he didn't make Captain prior to his
discharge is very telling. Reason: He wasn't there long enough.

He received a "direct" commission after AF Basic training as a 1st Lt, but even so, he should have been eligible for promotion, right?.


on edit: hehehe, can you see him actually getting the "yell in the face treatment" from a Lackland TI?

[wellstone_democrat]

2. Him and a Lackland TI?

I'd buy a ticket (having faced them myself in my time.

Thanks for the original post, this is what I have been waiting to see--the real issue here. Frankly, an Honorable discharge is NOT hard to get. If they want you to just go away you can get one---I saw a number of them in the early 70s in my own squadron. Oh, BTW, failing to show up for a physical in the 70s was universally known to be a case of avoiding random urine testing. I don't know anyone who could claim anything else. They either don't know the USAF of the period or are flat out lying.

[ewagner]

4. Still have my graduation pic

around here somewhere.

but they did say that dubya received a direct commission after AF Basic Training at Lackland.

[guitar man]

7. COG?

Did they call them a COG (convienence of government) discharge back then? that's what they called it in the 80's when they wanted someone to "just go away". COG may be the term we are looking for. I do know COG= honorable discharge.

[wellstone_democrat]

12. COG has a "SPN" code

it would be on the DD214 and could mean anything from "what the hell, register for fall term instead of spring! We are happy to help!" to "go away and die but I don't want the hassle of what a "general" or "dishonorable" discharge would entail. just go away"

There is a SPN (fondly known as a "spin" code) on every DD214. You can find the code on-line for pre-1988 (? not sure of the year) to match the SPN number if you have the DD214.

[TahitiNut]

27. Yup. Mine's "411" (Early Separation Overseas Returnee)

That was policy -- those of us DEROS'd from 'Nam with less than 3(?) months before normal ETS were discharged and sent home.

[BrotherBuzz]

35. SPN codes were dropped in 1974

(b) Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower and Reserve Affairs) Memorandum, "Discontinuation of the Use of Certain Information of Separation Documents Issued to Individuals," March 27, 1974

My DD-214 dated 29 April 1974 has no SPN code. Instead, I was issued a cheesy form letter (mimeographed!) stating my reason for Separation from service - "Early Separation of Oversea Returnee". The amateur letter appears to been hastily drafted and oddly written, almost an afterthought, because the directive to drop SPN codes was only a month old. Nevertheless both DD-214 and the crappy letter are recorded as one document with my County Recorder.

[AZCat]

6. I don't know much about rank, but I am curious

Is it possible he was demoted from Captain?

[rasputin1952]

14. "-Demotions" in the Officer Corps is extremely rare...

It is far easier to offer an easy out, a change of command, a change over to a unit or organization that basically exists only on paper, or just transfer the offender out to parts unknown.

I had a Bn Commander, a Lt Col, that just 'was gone' the day after an M1911A1 45 cal auto came up stolen from the arms room. The entire BN went into lockdown, the officers came up with the idea of offering a reward for the return of the 45; the kid that stole it, 'found' it, and took it up for the reward. He got busted on the spot. Bad idea for the Bn Cdr to come up with, he was history that night. We had a new Lt Col the next AM.

I never did find out what happened to him, heard he was sent to Ft Huachuca in AZ, but who knows.

In any case, the Officer Corps is in a class by itself, and to find an officer that was 'demoted', you'd have to look long and hard!

O8)

[trof]

15. True.

I've never heard of a "busting" down to a lower rank of an officer.
Happened in the enlisted ranks, but not for Lieutenants and above.

[AZCat]

19. Thanks- both of you!

nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Not possible.

Regular and Reserve officer commissions are commisions to permanent officer grade, by the President. Officers are only reduced in grade under special circumstances, usually after holding temporary commission to higher than commisioned grade. For instance, in World War I and World War II, to meet the organisational requirements of full mobilisation, many officers were temporarily promoted from their permanent grade to higher grades due to lack of trained and experienced field-grade officers. In most cases, demobilisation brings reversion to regular commissioned status. (As an example of this, Gen. George S. Patton was a captain in the Regular Army in 1917. He was temporarily promoted to Colonel, and reverted to Captain in 1919.)

Hope that answers your question.

[Az]

8. Anyone know if there are any stats

on what grade most muster out at? Would be interesting to show that something was up.

[trof]

9. Here's how it worked.

He probably received a "temporary" commission as a 2nd Lt. in order to attend pilot training. ALL pilot trainees are officers now. It didn't used to be that way.

Here's the drill:
At the time I joined the guard (17 MAR 1963), my unit, unlike Bush's,
was in dire need of pilots. The 117th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing
and the 106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron had been recalled to active duty in France, in October 1961, during the Berlin Crisis.
The units were relieved from active duty in August, 1962.
Many of the pilots elected to remain on active duty and make a career
of the Air Force.


I heard about the guard pilot training program and just walked in off the
street. I took a 4 hour Air Force Officer Qualification Test (AFOQT,
basically the old Stanine general intelligence test) and another four hour
Flight Aptitude test. I passed both, although I don't remember what a
passing grade was. I do remember that 8 or 10 of us were taking the tests
and only 2 of us passed. I also took and passed a flight physical with the
base flight surgeon. You DO NOT take a flight physical with your
"personal" physician. ONLY an Air Force Flight Surgeon can administer this
examination.

While my test papers and applications were
forwarded to National Guard Bureau in Washington for processing and
approval, the FBI ran a security check on me. A few weeks later I was
notified that all preparations were complete and that I could present myself
at the monthly drill week-end for swearing in with a temporary commission as
a 2nd Lt. No boot camp, no nuthin'. The temporary commission was to become
permanent upon my successful completion of pilot training.

A few months later, my unit secured a slot for me in a USAF pilot training
class. It was a 55 week program. When I was awarded my wings, I returned
to Birmingham, AL (106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 117th Wing,
Alabama Air National Guard) and 90 days of active-duty-for-training
to check out in our unit's aircraft, the RF-84/F. I then completed my 6
year obligation and was honorably discharged with the rank of Captain.

[djg21]

3. Pay records?

Thank you for your observations.

I believe that Shrub's release of pay records raises more issues trhan it resolves -- especially in light of the Cohen piece in the WP. For instance, I want to know to what extent Shrub was receiving military paychecks during periods when he was not reporting for duty.

If he in fact was not reporting for duty, and he was taking military pay, that would have to be tantamount to theft and/or a fraud on the U.S. Treasury. It's really not much different theoretically from defrauding Social Security or Medicaid.

That being said, maybe it's best to justleave this alone, and let swing voters infer what they want from Shrub's refusal to release all of his military records, and the fact that he cannot produce a single guardsman who recalls serving with him!

[DinahMoeHum]

16. Right, just like a "no-show" job, a political patronage position.

n/t

:kick:

[DemoTex]

5. Thanks, trof. Good stuff!

I was wondering about the lack of promotion, too. I figured he just had not been in long enough to make O-3. He should have mustered out as Captain George W. Bu$h.

[trof]

10. EXACTLY!

[Bunny]

11. Trof , you always have good info in this area.

But a question for you: how realistic is it that NO ONE from either TANG or ANG has apparently come forward to say that they served with LT. Bush? No buddies from his unit, no squad mates, etc? No one at all?

I'm not familiar with the Guard - do the folks there typically develop close friendships like the active duty guys, or are they more removed from each other?

Wouldn't you think that someone would have come forward to say: I remember that guy - he was okay? Or: I remember that guy, what a dick!

I think it's very telling that no one has come forward. Do you find this strange?

[trof]

13. Very odd.

Pilots established VERY close relationships.
When I was flying another guy's wing, my life was literally in his hands. When you're flying wing, you can ONLY watch lead and stay in position.
You can't look at your own instruments, or out at the horizon, or ANYWHERE but lead's plane.

I'm talking CLOSE formation. Wingtips overlapped, and me just a few inches behind. Reach-out-and-touch formation.

If lead flies into a mountain, his wingman will hit a fraction of a millesecond later. That's the degree of concentration, trust, and confidence involved. Next flight, I'll be lead, and you'll be on MY wing.

We ate, drank, flew, lived, loved, cried, died...everything together. You wouldn't go up with a guy you didn't trust implicitly. It's hard to put into words. You had to be there. Be one of us.

Close? Yeah, we were close.
Where are George's buddies? Speaking out. Standing up for him.

[Bunny]

17. Very odd indeed.

As much as we despise him, you'd think there'd be someone from his unit who'd be proud to say they served with him.

[rasputin1952]

18. Same thing in the Army...

the guy in the foxhole w/you is the guy you depend on keep you alive, and visa-versa. The guys in the tank know each other so well, they can tell when you skip a beat. Every unit is like this, and the tighter/smaller the unit, the closer you get.

I never fought for mom, apple pie, the girl next door, (she was ugly anyway), I fought to keep myself and others alive. All the rest is nice stuff to read about, but in the end, you fight to survive. Everyone who serves, is a hero, and deserves the respect of those they protect. War, peace, in between, makes no difference; if you serve, and can be called upon to go into harms way, you are owed a debt by everyone in the country. It is up to US, the PEOPLE of this nation, to ensure we ONLY go to war, when there is no other option. bush has shown himself to be a failure at everything he has done; this administration is no exception!

O8)

[trof]

20. "I never fought for mom" Aye-f*cking-men.

"I fought to keep myself and others alive. All the rest is nice stuff to read about, but in the end, you fight to survive."

That's it. Precisely.
Bottom line.
I didn't want to die. Even though, at the time, I thought I was bullet-proof, I knew there was an OUTSIDE chance.

I might get as close to that chance as I had the cajones to get.
But I still wanted very much to remain among the living.

rasputin nailed it.

[Brian Sweat]

22. One thing to remember is that even by his own admission

Shrub did not fly in Alabama. The AANG didn't have his plane.

However, this should be an issue in and of itself. Why was he allowed to do equivlent duty in a state where his million dollar training was completely wasted?

[0rganism]

24. To put it simply, he WASN'T ALLOWED to do it

His request for transfer was accepted by the Alabama unit, but REJECTED by superiors in the ANG (HQ in Colorado, IIRC). He went there anyway.

[DemoTex]

21. My take on this (I wanted Trof to chime in first):

I agree with all the responses to bunnyj. I think two things are in play here:

1: The AANG guys are still scratching their heads and saying WTF?. They cannot remember him because HE WAS NOT THERE.

2: The TANG guys - those who obviously did know Lt. Bu$h - are afraid to talk. Why? A. Because they talked about him so much in the context of what a fuck-up he was that it would be hypocritical to come forward with any support now on fear of being ridiculed by the real fighter pilots - their buds - in the unit. B. These are smart men. They read the paper. They know about Cliff Baxter. They have the BFEE pegged for what it is.

[cheapbeemr]

And it should be noted that Air Guard bases were much smaller

than regular Air Force. As an E-3 in MoANG back then, I can attest the base CO knew everyone - an Air Guard bases' personnel were in the dozens, not the thousands of a regular base. No way a pilot especially could serve there and not be noticed.

[kurtyboy]

33. Absolutely right!

I was in an ANG non-flying unit (Communications, Combat Crew) in the early eighties. We ALL knew each other, knew all of the spouses, knew everything about each other. It was like a little town.

I don't know about the ANG in the seventies, but it does seem weird that NOBODY will come forward to say, "Yeah, I drilled with this guy." Especially since the "guy" was a son of a congressman, working on a local political campaign (when I work on campaigns today, EVERYBODY I MEET hears about it---everybody), and was a bit out of the ordinary...(See Turnipseed's comment that he would have remembered someone from Texas)

The silence is, as they say, deafening.

[Bozita]

23. Helluva thread! ... My thanks to all contributors

Very informative ... and it all makes sense.

[DemoTex]

25. Kick for the late night crowd. Expert opinion involved.

Thank goodness for DU!

[wellstone_democrat]

26. kick

:kick:

[rumguy]

28. excellent post - keep this kicked everyone!!!

the media needs to know this stuff...

[Norquist Nemesis]

29. Excellent posts! One more thing about Bush being "seen"

is that a press release was issued when he signed up. People knew who he was and they (the ANG) brought his presense to light being the son of a congressman and all. So...it's even MORE suspicious that no one can remember/is coming forward to say he was there.

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[DemoTex]

32. Proof positive! Lefties love capitalism.

Give 'til it hurts! I do!

DemoTex

[Bozita]

34. Bernie Ward is talking to a military pilot now -- link

http://www.kgoam810.com/complexshowdj.asp?DJID=3284

good stuff

[trof]

36. Some confirmation of numbers

I've discussed (by e-mail) what I presented in the original post with two of my former squadron mates, and they confirm my info as to pay periods and required duty.

I asked one "Wonder what would have happened to me if I'd decided not to show up for my physical, taking myself permanently off of flying status about half way through my obligation?

I'm thinking General George Reid Doster (our wing commander, and a tough, no nonsense soldier) would have had a very large piece of this Lieutenant's ass.

I'm thinking camo fatigues somewhere hot and sweaty and real green.

I know different standards apply to royal families, but it still rankles."

[GOPisEvil]

37. Out-f'in-standing!

A big salute to you and Demo-Tex (and related posters) for doing some Sierra Hotel leg work!

[trof]

38. More on how the Guard "works".

From one of my old squadron mates:

"It does rankle. We both know exactly what would have happened to us in the Alabama ANG. However, this type of thing used to go on all the time in other units, perhaps still does.

I served my last year on active duty detailed as the XXXX (Chief of Staff) in the HQ DC ANG. I became persona non grata very quickly when I found out and took action on one local TV personality who had belonged to the unit for 8-9 years and NEVER attended drill. His records will show he received pay and an Honorable Discharge. Then there was the young lady they were going to appoint as a 2nd Lt. until I found out she had a 3 convictions for prostitution. Then there was the Flight Surgeon, Hospital
Commander who I discovered had no degree from medical school and I caused to be relieved from duty as a doctor/commander.

I had been recruited by DC specifically to become the Adjutant General for Air and to be promoted to BG (Brigadier General). Naturally, my continued efforts to run the place by the book were not well received. By the way, all of these individuals, including The Adjutant General, were from downtown DC. Got the picture? I think I said it nicely!

I already had 22 1/2 years active duty and had been at the rank of Colonel for 9 years, so, shortly after all of this confrontation with the DC "mafia", I found it in my best interest to retire. I have never looked back, but s...t like this does still rankle!"

[GOPisEvil]

39. Ya think mebbe that Poppy found a "friendly" ANG unit to ship Jr. to?

Ya know, one with a reputation for allowing folks to goof off, not attend drill and still get paid and an honorable discharge?

Mebbe them TANG guys actually wanted Jr. to show up for drill and fly a plane every once in a while...