We should boycott American Airlines!

[Bonobo]

They apparently aren't firing the guy.
I am pissed about this, How about the rest of you?
Am I overreacting?

[Democrats unite]

1. Aren't firing who?

Sorry I gave to claim ignorance here.

[Bonobo]

5. Sorry for not being clearer. I'm referring to the proselytizing pilot.

Please do a search for the other threads concerning this.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

2. Link?

Info please?? :)

[politick]

3. what's going on?

what guy should be fired?

[goclark]

4. Yea!

That should be a lose your job event!
It sounds like he is playing favorites with the passengers. If the plane had to do an emergency landing,who would he try to save first,the Christians? Would born again Christians have special privileges?

This is the last straw.Even as a Christian I am insulted.

Goodbye American Airlines. Sounds like they are the Fox News of the skys.

[Bonobo]

6. Link to other thread. But this is no dupe, mods.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=352402

[Az]

7. The evangelyzing pilot

An American Airlines pilot got on the speaker and told all the Christians to raise their hands. He then informed everyone that those that did not raise their hands were crazy. Then essentially told the Christians to evangelyze the other passengers if they wanted to make their time on the plane mean anything. He had just returned from a missionary trip and was quite overcome with zeal.

[Nashyra]

10. You sound like just like the "pilot"

You have no knowledge of what the Airlines is or is not doing. He has been taken off schedule. I work for American and know what the f*&^ I'm talking about. This reactionairy BS about boycotting a company who is doing something about the situation is just as bad as the pilot preaching to a captive audience. The company is doing something and for you to advocate hurting the other employees with a boycott is childish. The other crew members were horrified to hear the captain make that speech and have all reacted wioth the same outrage, not on my airline is the reaction, those poor folks were sitting in the cabin in their UNIFORMS. Personal responsibility is the appropriate response. I wonder if the original poster should be held accountable for everything his fellow worker or family member does?

[Az]

24. Um, what did I say?

I seem to be catching the brunt of your anger here. I looked through my post and didn't see anything that warranted your reaction. I do not happen to agree with the boycott notion. I am watching what AA is doing and do not believe that they are responsible for his actions and expect them to deal with it appropriately. My post was simply to inform those that did not know the circumstances about the incident that initiated this.
.
.
.
.
Ease up there dude/dudette.

[trof]

27. um...I think you replied to the wrong person.

Happens to me too.

[Bonobo]

29. Whoever she was replying to, it was unecessarily rude.

[Sterling]

46. Not like the poster has an agenda either.

Wow I like my job but I am not willing to defend my company if they were handling this the way AA is so far. That guy should be out on his ass, publicly. Jet Blue is way better anyway.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. No, he said the *opposite* of that

The NYT today said the *opposite* of what you are saying. The pilot said that the Christians "must be crazy" for raising their hands, and suggested the people who didn't could ask the people who did about their religion if they wanted to.

Not saying it was appropriate, however.

[Az]

35. Check sources

From NY Daily News:

Shortly after takeoff on Friday, the pilot asked people aboard Flight 34 to "raise their hand if they were Christian," according to one passenger, Amanda Nelligan, of Los Angeles, who spoke to CBS.

He then told the passengers that "everyone who doesn't have their hand raised is crazy," Nelligan said.

"He continued to say, 'Well, you have a choice: You can make this trip worthwhile, or you can sit back, read a book and watch the movie," Nelligan said.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

41. eh? the newspapers disagree

what do you know!

[Wonco_the_Sane]

8. Boycott sounds good

I don't think you can fire a union guy. Maybe demote him to 3rd seat (navigator) with no mic privileges.

[Nashyra]

11. That's right you don't think

Believe me American is taking care of the situation, this is a situation where you do have to consider the fact that he is union but that does not mean he can not be fired. Right now he is off schedule.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

13. I agree with boycott

what he did was wrong. Glad he is punished.

[Nashyra]

15. Boycotting hurts the other employeesn ot the pilot who has

already been removed from the schedule. Once again do you think you should be held responsible for everything your co workers do.

[mike1963]

18. Management is responsible. They have so far declined to indicate what

if any action has or will be taken. I have many friends who work for AA (Tulsa)...they are just another big asshole corporation feeding at the tit of government largesse and bailouts. And it's a shame, long ago it was run by aviation people instead of bow-tied bean counters.

[Bonobo]

19. There is a difference between individuals and companies

And that difference is that, yes, companies ARE responsible for their employees actions. I think that is obvious. So your analogy is silly.

Having said that, I would be happy to fly on AA if they react appropriately and permanently ground the guy.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

20. Boycott sends message.

AA should fire the guy. Fire him, boycott ends. Union issue belongs on another thread.

[Brian Sweat]

32. Why in the flying fajitas should AA and the rest of their employees

be made to suffer, just because one of their pilots went off the reservation. AA has disciplined the pilot. It is clear that it is not their policy to have their personnel behave in this manner.

This is as stupid as the people that wanted to boycott the drug store company because one of their employees violated the companies policies.

There are good reasons to boycott companies. These are not good reasons.

[mike1963]

39. Suppose your bank has a teller who embezzled your money.

But they refuse to do anything about it. Are you still going to entrust them with your money?

The upshot is totally contingent on what management DOES about this.
If they dump the prick, there won't be a boycott. It doesn't get much more complicated than that.

(I speak from some experience as a commercial pilot of 39 years.)

[Brian Sweat]

42. Absolutely. If AA allows this guy to continue flying

then they should be boycotted. But calling for a boycott before you have the whole story is premature. AA has clearly indicated that they do not condone his behavior and that he will be disciplined.

[Sterling]

47. Maybe the threat of a boycott will pressure AA to fire.

I think that is the point. A boycott is totally valid. No ones job is more important than what is right.

[Brian Sweat]

57. Sure, the threat of a boycott.

Write AA and voice your concerns. Explain to them that you would have strong concerns about having one of their employees proselytize to you will you were trapped in one of their planes and that having the pilot ask about god during a flight would be quite frightening. Explain to them that unless they take measures to assure you that this will not happen in the future, you will not be able to continue using their airline.

Just don't jump on the boycott bandwagon before they have had a reasonable amount of time to respond.

[mike1963]

55. I agree completely, but the response from AA's management has been

mealy-mouthed at best thus far. "We are conducting a study..." bla, bla, bla. If I had been the CEO of AMR, I would have come out within hours with an unequivocal statement: "This person has been terminated. No further comment."

Q.E.D.

[stromboli]

37. union firing

no, you can fire a union employee if their actions warrant it. unions protect against unjust firings. i'm willing to bet the union would allow it, considering the potential consequences for the whole company.

[Bronco69]

9. You're not overreacting

The guy should be given the boot! I can only imagine what those poor people on the plane must have been thinking. I would have felt threatened. I wonder if AA will get a few lawsuits over this.

[Nashyra]

12. The passenger son the flight

were probably calmed down by the 10 UNIFORMED crew members who were deadheading in the cabin and probably reassured most who had questions that the PA was not business as usual.

[Bonobo]

16. I'm glad you posted.

I called and registered a very polite complaint with AA.
As for trusting them to do the right thing, I think that they will IF (and only if) they feel the heat. Otherwise I am afraid they will just let the issue disappear quietly.

Also, in addition to punishing thes one individual, it is vital that a message be sent to the customers and the rest of the world that this will not be tolerated.

Until that time, I will encourage everyone I know to not fly on AA.

I hope that you will keep us informed of what is going on re this issue and not take personal offence at my feelings. They are not a personal attack on you or anyone else at AA.

[Sterling]

52. What ?

That only makes things more frightening. The fact this guy was so clearly out of control and still flying the plane.

[Sterling]

51. I would have made a FAA scene.

They would have to have turned the plane around. I would not be going peacfully on that nuts last flight. That was the impression many passengers were left with. That the fruitcake was on a suicide run. I understand why.

[hlthe2b]

60. I'm with you, Sterling.....

I would probably have gotten myself locked up, but I would clearly have demanded that they turn the damned plane around and let me the hell off! I am Christian, but this is outrageous behavior and quite frightening given recent events. To say it is unprofessional is an outrageous UNDERstatement. It is as likely to be perceived as a threat to passengers hearing the pilot as if someone stood up and yelled "bomb!"

I credit the sane American Airlines staff who, it sounds, worked hard to calm the passengers while also ensuring that authorities were notified. However, I strongly agree with most everyone here that AA has to take a very strong stance on this issue. They must reassure the public that this will NEVER be tolerated in the future. I'm not coming out with a suggeston to boycott, but I can tell you one thing-- until I see something very definitive coming from AA on this issue, I personally WILL NOT fly AA.

While I empathize with AA employees who feel victim to this whole episode, I might suggest that your concerns would be better directed towards management, than at the public at large. Perhaps internal pressure may be equally effective as external pressure from the public? Regardless, I don't think you can blame the public for not trusting an airline who does not act upon this in a immediate, forthright, and serious manner-- with full disclosure to the public.

[MAlibdem]

14. I don't think I'd feel comfortable

If I was on that particular flight to allow the pilot to take me to my destination. It's sickening. But I think there has to be a full investigation into the matter before any boycotting should begin.

[geniph]

17. Am I the only one

who is made nervous when the pilot thinks it's time to start praying during a flight?

:scared:

[DemoTex]

21. FAA First Class Medical Certificate.

As a retired airline captain, I feel that the FAA should suspend his medical certificate (temporarily grounding him on medical reasons) pending the outcome of a psychiatric evaluation done by the FAA Aeromedical Branch. If he is found to be unfit for flight, for psychiatric reasons, he can utilize sick leave, long term disability, and AA's excellent medical insurance while he is treated for his condition. If he is truly sick, I don't begrudge him that. He should not be fired for a mental condition.

I would hope that whatever internal actions American Airlines take with this pilot they consider his mental state. Punishment should be reserved for the time his psychiatric state is cleared by the FAA and, if appropriate, company and pilots' union (APA) psychiatrists.

I know of a pilot who was fired because he couldn't pass his 6-mos check ride. Or the re-check. Or the third, and final, check ride. He had never had anything but glowing reports from check-pilots during his entire airline career. Ends up, he had a brain tumor that was affecting his judgment and spatial awareness. The union (ALPA) got his job back, which placed him on paid long-term disability (with full back-pay) while his tumor was treated. The treatment was successful, and he is back flying the line now.

[trof]

38. Extremely bad judgment.

And that's really what they paid us for.
To have (and use) good judgment.
Hopefully EXCELLENT judgment.
A certain amount of eye-hand coordination, and good reflexes, but the good judgment was paramount.

I believe he exercised extremely poor judgment by:
1. Proselytizing his religion to a captive audience already edgy post 9/11.
2. Evidently having no concern as to how this might affect the company who he depends on for a livelihood
3. Not considering his own situation and that of his family in relationship to 1 and 2 above.

I do believe he was "encouraged' to do what he did by the current ploltico-"religious" atmosphere. The "WE are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong" fundie position that national leaders seem to encourage.

[DemoTex]

49. I agree Trof

Such bad judgment, such egregious judgment, that I think he has mental problems. Someone asked me:"What was his F/O (co-pilot) doing!?" I said, " Staring out the CV window at the desert below, and asking 'WHY ME, CREW SKED?'"

[Arugula Latte]

22. Can you imagine if he said "Who here is devoted to Allah?"

This is just as bad. Fire his ass!!

[Brian Sweat]

33. While I think the call for a boycott is premature

and probably an overreaction, I do believe that the pilot should be punished severly and that he should never be allowed to fly a commercial airliner again.

If he had said Allah, not only would he have been fired, but Trashcroft would have arrested him for being a terraist.

[KharmaTrain]

23. AMR's Sure Not Sending The Right Message...

I'm looking to book plane tickets via American in the next couple days (it's the only non-stop), but now I'm seriously thinking of alterative routes...even if it adds hours onto my travel.

I understand Nashyra's point about the one bad apple and not to punish the 10 other good, hard-working people who were stuck in that situation. Yes, I'm very supportive...but the reaction from AMR corporate is what concerns me.

First, the "cone of silence"; making this a private internal matter with the added message that any actions taken would be private smells of a hush-up. I'm not a Christian, thus I would have been highly offended and horrified had I been on that flight. The company's reaction so far has not convinced me that such an incident couldn't happen again and they don't consider this a serious matter. I do.

Imagine if my rabbi were the pilot and said the same thing, or a devout Moslem or Wiccan. Do you think the reaction would have been as muted? Methinks, the corporate would love to wave a "we got one of them radical A-rabs", while giving the wink and nod to a "professional" who obviously couldn't leave his personal life on the ground.

[Nashyra]

25. I will forward your conderns to American Airlines

I can guarantee you that it is not being taken lightly, however Demo Tex was right in that he needs to be evaluated first and it is important that disciplinary action remain private until after a thorough investigation and then be released to the public. I don't think that there would be another occurence of this type at American soon. I know I have seen my company mail.

[KharmaTrain]

28. I appreciate your reply

Again, I stand with you and the many hard-working people who I know condemn this action. I would have hoped the initial response from the company was more direct...putting this pilot on "hiatus" (that's the word I heard today) compared to suspend sounds more like "time out" to me than a serious discipline matter.

I've also send a email to AMR corporate expressing my concerns about this issue...from a religious/political, safety and overall comfort standpoint.

This story was virtually buried over the weekend...I first saw it in a LBR string here and had to hunt for several hours to find a solid link. Even then, I mentioned the story to my wife last night before we sat down to watch the news (this was Monday) and she hadn't heard the story...she first caught wind of it on Olbermann's newscast and was as appauled as I was. Again, it was the corporate's reaction or lack of it that seems so glaring here.

From my reading of this, we may never know what actions are taken against this pilot...or what actions can be taken against him. Unless this is speaking out of school, I'd appreciate any follow up you could give us from the inside. Actually I think you'd be doing your fellow employees a big favor to get the real story out and clear minds. Cheers!

[salin]

What concerned me,

was the initial response, at least that was reported, that they were looking into it, but that it just appeaered that the pilot had gone a little too far in sharing his personal beliefs.

It was worrisome because given the situation - the pilot has control of the plane, people can not go anywhere and their lives/safety are in his hands, and his message could easily be construed as a threat... some passengers reported being very frightened by the incident. The crew was reported to have contacted the ground control (or crew?) (which seems the right thing to do) - which suggests that folks were very ill at ease/worried.

My point, is that the public response (ala the spokesman) seems to have underplayed what the problem was with the situation. This wasn't a person at the gate who was overzealous in "sharing" their beliefs to people waiting in the boarding line. The way the pilot expressed this was much more serious. If the company has made a stronger response, such as a public appology - or a response expressing regret to those passengers on the plane that recognizes the seriousness of the situation (and thus assuring the public that one is not likely to fly in a similar situation).. then it would be great to have that be a part of this story here at DU (eg a link to such a statement.)

The media can be selective in what they print (duh!), so it is possible that such a response has been forthcoming - but it hasn't gotten the same publicity. If this is the case, would you know where we could find such a statement? It would bet that it would greatly change the general tone of the dialogue here centering around this story.

[ma4t]

26. absolutely!! yes, sir!!! boycott, boycott, boycott!!!!!!!!

No doubt about it. There should be a big boycott. That guy shouldn't be allowed to get by with his offensive remarks. This is no difference from the time we should have boycotted the Dixie Chicks because of their remarks that were so offensive............ never mind.

[Brian Sweat]

34. The Dixie Chicks remarks didn't scare the stuffing

out of a plane load of passengers. You are comparing apples to oranges. If he had said Allah instead of god, you'd be the first to call for his head.

[ma4t]

56. have to disagree

I'm not calling for anyone's head and if "he had said Allah instead" I wouldn't call for his head. I'm from the school that says everyone should be allowed to be a fool in his own way so long as he doesn't hurt anyone. I confess that I'm continually disappointed by most here at DU as they repeatedly demonstrate that they stand four-square for freedom of speech, just as long as they agree with the speech in question.

I understand that I'm comparing apples to oranges. With the AA pilot situation people here are calling for a boycott and/or firing because someone said something that offended them. Whereas with the Dixie Chicks people here condemned a call for a boycott because someone said something that offended others. Thanks for pointing out the obvious differences.

My point is that supporting freedom of speech is easy when you agree with the speech. It's only when you support freedom for those with whom you disagree that you are really supporting it as a matter of principal. Read the Federalist Papers for a more complete explanation.

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[BlueCollar]

36. Please don't boycott AA

I've already taken a 17% paycut, lost a week of vacation, and given up five paid holidays a year.

Additionally a lot of our employees are laid off...

A boycott would hurt many more of us...and I don't think the airline business is creating a whole lot of jobs these days.

If you want to fire off nasty mail to AA about this..then please do so...but please don't boycott us...I really can't afford to lose this job...

Thanks in advance.

[Az]

40. Not planning on it

but then I am not going anywhere any time soon either. Sorry.

[Sterling]

53. That sucks

I hate that you are stuck at AA. They have way bigger problems than this though as I am sure you are aware. They really dropped the ball by not getting on this in a meaningful way earlier.


Maybe Jet Blue or one of the new low cost better service lines will pick up some of our DU friends but when AA crashes it won't be because DUers held a boycott based on their principles.

[brainwashed_youth]

43. yes

ur overreacting a whole lot. this was an isolated incident and I take it from ur post that u sound like you have a problem with christians. hey, don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan of christianity, but this was simply an isolated incident and a boycott is silly and wholly unnecessary

[Bonobo]

44. What in my post indicates I have a problem with Christians?

I have a problem with anyone that pushes their religion to a captive audience.

[Sterling]

45. Yes we should. Besides Jet Blue is better and cheaper.

I made the mistake of flying to Sundance on AA. I later learned the same ticket was less on Jet Blue and they have much better service.

[MrsMatt]

58. JetBlue violated their own privacy policies

http://www.alternet.org/rights/2003/09/001264.html

I'm not knocking JetBlue - they have a very fine track record. But, I just wanted to point out that all airlines have their warts.

[smirkymonkey]

48. Had I been on that flight I would have been

completely freaked out. Boycott or not, I probably never would fly that airline again.

If management doesn't take something like that seriously, I really can't say I trust them to use there best judgement in running other aspects of the airline. On the other had, I am sure fundamentalists will be more loyal to AA because of it. So I would guess they would cancel each other out.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. I don't think they should fire him but they should definitely suspend him.

He should have known better than that. I was always told 3 things to avoid discussing in the office: Politics, Religion and Race

[Ilsa]

54. ITA with DemoTex...

This guy should get a medical suspension and have a psych exam. Apparently it has been too long since his last (or initial) psych exam. He is a scary dude, and I wouldn't want to ride on his plane. AA needs to take care of this, and the Pilots Union needs to protect itself by handling this nut objectively.
But that's just my opinion.

[littlejoe]

59. What he did was inappropriate and scary.

AA should fire him, period.