Is Capitalism a huge swindling machine or "slouching toward utopia"?

[JanMichael]

This should be a fun thread. It covers several different issues like Income Mobility, Generational Quintile Mobility, and Globalization. Even Paul Krugman gets a mention in this first article:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0204yates.htm

"Interestingly, states with greater inequality of income distribution also spent less per person on education, had fewer books per person in the schools, and had poorer educational performance, including worse reading skills, worse math skills and lower rates of completion of high school."

Can we all say "Banana Republic"? It seems the greater the income inequality the greater the chance that the truly poor will remain so.

"Great and growing inequality saps the political power of those at the bottom, making it more likely that the social welfare programs which help to alleviate the harmful consequences of poverty will be gutted, while at the same time making it more likely that policies which further favor the rich will be put in place. The poor are increasingly filled with hopelessness and despair as they contemplate the yawning gap between them and those at the top.7"

This is such a difficult concept to relate to people. The fact is that the lower one goes the lower one's power, I mean resources and perhaps even one's Will, to fight back deteriorates. The deck gets perpetually stacked. It should be an easy thing to grasp but I'll bet you anything (OK, not anything, nothing.) that this thread draws out some that will vehemently disagree...

This article is referenced in the previous article. It lays out the current statistical relationships between Parent to Child quintile movement over time.

http://www.irs.princeton.edu/krueger/intergen2.htm

"Furthermore, the degree of persistence across generations is strong for both rich and poor. Thomas Hertz of American University finds that a child born in the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income has a 31 percent chance of ending up there as an adult and a 51 percent chance of ending up in the bottom 20 percent, while one born in the top 10 percent has a 30 percent chance of staying there and a 43 percent chance of being in the top 20 percent."

Super Quintile/Income Mobility is one of the perpetual disingenuous tales told by our Media.

"In another study, David I. Levine of Berkeley and Dr. Mazumder found that the impact of parental income on adult sons' income increased from 1980 to the early 1990's."

What a shocker! Reagan did a fine job protecting the Rich and Powerful.

GRAPHIC: Chart: "Like Parent, Like Child"

Recent studies find that there is less income mobility from one generation to another than previously believed.

PARENTS INCOME QUINTILE: Top 20%

CHANCE OF CHILDREN ATTAINING EACH INCOME LEVEL

Top quintile: 42.3 %

Middle quintile: 16.5

Bottom quintile: 6.3



PARENTS INCOME QUINTILE: Middle 20%

CHANCE OF CHILDREN ATTAINING EACH INCOME LEVEL

Top quintile: 15.3

Middle quintile: 25.0

Bottom quintile: 17.3



PARENTS INCOME QUINTILE: Bottom 20%

CHANCE OF CHILDREN ATTAINING EACH INCOME LEVEL

Top quintile: 7.3

Middle quintile: 18.4

Bottom quintile: 37.3
====================================

So is it a self protecting Swindling Machine or an engine slouching us all toward Utopia?

[LiberalVoice]

1. Huge Swindling Machine

n/t

[mgc1961]

2. I'll go with...

...H.S.M.

[EstimatedProphet]

3. Yeah, HSM

The one simple thing that people froget when they talk about the "fairness" of Capitalism, is: what about the people that start without capital? We saw where that went in the late 1800's with the rail barons and trusts-only ones with the money, so they were the only ones that could get started.

[HawkerHurricane]

14. I am not a capitalist

Since I have no capital.

[pop goes the weasel]

4. three card monte

with the mark blindfolded and drugged

[KT2000]

5. Democracy and capitalism

constitute a non sequitor in the real world. The population is mollified with the myth of democracy while capitalism hijacks our society.
The wealthy know that we do not live in a democracy and their money buys much in the political system.
The lower income are are fed the myth of democracy by the ruling elite - none so blatantly as Bush.

[Nederland]

8. As are Freedom and Socialism

The real myth is to think that the attributes that we want in ideal society: Freedom, Equality, Democracy, etc. are not inherently contradictory. You simply cannot have all of them simultaneously, which is why I have consistently argued that no pure system--neither pure Capitalism nor pure Socialism--can possibly succeed. The rest of the world has already come to this conclusion, its just a handful of people on the far left and far right haven't got the message yet.

[Terwilliger]

19. Yeah, but the US has none of that

the US is corporo-capitalism with antiquated notions about stimulating economies with less cost when the value of everything (except labor) goes up

You seem to suggest that nothing should be done...is that YOUR extremism?

[Nederland]

21. Not true

I don't believe that nothing different should be done, I merely disagree with those people around here that think raising taxes is a good idea. The federal government has plenty enough money to do everything it needs too, it just spends the money on the wrong things.

[Terwilliger]

22. I agree with that

but you want social spending cut, and I say defense and other pork

[Nederland]

24. Wrong Again

Defense spending is precisely what I would like to see cut.

[Terwilliger]

25. good!

so why are ya trippin?

[Nederland]

29. I'm Trippin...

...because most people around here want to raise my taxes :)

[camero]

35. Then you must be rich

Because they are the taxes that need to be raised.

[MrPrax]

6. Some good research here...

Way to go...

One of the cornerstones of 'capitialist' philosophy, that even liberals fall prey to in their solutions, is this mobility question.

From the 60s on, there has considerable evidence that social and income mobility is a myth and is merely an ideological handmaiden to 'freewill' justifications--poverty, homelessness, illiteracy, lower mortality rates, etc etc are simply viewed as facts of personal failure and, of course, a way to market yet another 'self-help' approach.

[AndyTiedye]

11. It is Not Capitalism when a Cartel Buys the Government

It is not Democracy when the voting machinez are own3d by one party.

[Selwynn]

7. Capitalism will never lead to utopia - it is self-descructive.

Marx was essentially absolutely right in his critique of capitalism, even though he may have been wrong in his proposed alternatives.

[Nederland]

9. Ditto Socialism

The future belongs to mixed systems.

[Estragon]

10. If capitalism is so bad...

....then why are all of you Democrats?

-slightly confused observer

[Nederland]

13. Welcome to DU

You'll quickly find that the Democrats here are significantly to the left of the mainstream of the party--particularly on economic issues.

[Terwilliger]

17. You should see some of the "two-party system" arguments we have

that might enlighten ya :hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

12. Huge swindling machine

I think capitalism turned into corporatism, which is a huge swindling machine. Welcome to the United States of Corporate America.

[HawkerHurricane]

15. Depends on how it's done...

Properly regulated, capitalism works wonderfully, if clumsily, toward making things better.
Unregulated, or worse, improperly regulated (like the Bushies want) leads to a feudalistic system where wealth = rank; it will always end in revolution... and almost all revolutions end with something worse.

[JanMichael]

28. Let's hope, no ensure, this next one is better.

It's all we've got.

[Sam Lowry]

16. Hrrm, Yeah

Either that or it affords the most freedom and opportunity of any system ever devised. Come on, my chickens.

[G_j]

18. can't have filthy rich without dirt poor

simple logic. Yes it's a HSM.

[AG78]

20. It doesn't matter...

what system may be in place. If our species gets it's hands on it, it'll end up a corrupt system.

Capitalism is just the current struggle against existence itself. There's a reason we have so much, and most of the rest of the world has so little. That's capitalism. It's being corrupted. It's not simply because those other states are failed ones. They have to be failed states for us to have as much as we do.

If Globalization keeps going the way it's going, everything will be (police?)state controlled, it will be a race to the bottom, and that won't work either.

We need a human system. Whatever that means, we need it. We need the ying, and the yang. We know a lot about ourselves. We know, or at least have access to, thanks to the information age that we're in, more history than ever before. Yet we continue to do the same thing in the big picture level.

I'm sure many people here could write a book on this topic. As I'm writing the next sentence right now, I'm thinking of the opposite answer to one of the questions I answer.

If we, as a species, focused on the answer to this question, instead of killing each other, maybe that would be the key. It's the eternal question of what it means to be human.

It's a hell of a question though, and one that needs a much larger forum than this.

[RichM]

23. Huge Swindling Machine, all the way

Capitalism leads to wealth concentration in the hands of a narrow sliver of the population. Every vital industry becomes dominated by monopolies or oligopolies. The top echelons of these organizations become capable of purchasing the government. The government becomes hopelessly corrupt. Market imperatives demand overseas expansion; imperialism is inevitable. Wars and campaigns of repression are the only possible outcome. The tax burden is pushed increasingly on society's weaker members, and grunt-level military service is performed mainly by working class citizens. The wars thus have a marked class character: financed mainly by the working class, fought mainly by the working class -- with all the benefits flowing to weapons contractors, oil companies, etc.

[JanMichael]

32. Yep. The facts tend to suggest that.

The intentionally obtuse types will never contemplate that though:shrug:

[robcon]

26. Definitely 'slouching towards utopia'

Capitalism is the engine of dynamic change, of increasing standards of living, and of the growth of the middle class.

[Terwilliger]

27. haaha....on what planet???

The "middle class" was invented by socialism...it was socilaist policies that brought about the "New Deal" and the middle-class

[earthman dave]

30. Swindle. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

Them that has, gets. If you're rich enough, you can even rewrite the rules that determine who gets what, bending the "financial spacetime" (perhaps a metaphor too far, but i'm drunk, so who cares?) even further. Regardless, the "downhill" direction is for all the money to "flow" to the rich.

[MAlibdem]

31. Third choice

-Effective way of allocating capital to create goods and services.
-Level of inequality is troubling, can be righted by governmental intervention.
-Rewards for initiative good.
-Equal opportunity created by government, equal outcome not assured, solved partially by inheritance tax.

[Salviati]

33. It has it's place, but is certainly not the answer to everything...

The way I see it, and this goes for just about everything, the ideal solution to a given problem is never just one of the possible solutions, but a combiniation of all possible solutions, each where appropriate. Capitalism works great where it works great, but in many cases is as much a miserable failure as his chimperial majesty. In my opinion, capatalism is doomed to failure in any sector that citizens to not have the ultimate freedom as a consumer, not to consume.

When people are forced to play the game, such as in health care, utilities, etc buuisnesses seem to become either a monopoly, or they might as well be, because they know that the people have to pay whatever they charge. When people have the freedom to take their ball and go home, then the playing field is a bit more level, and capitalism stands a chance at bettering all parties involved...

[camero]

34. It's the great con of humanity

They say it is slouching us toward utopia but offer vague excuses when it turns out to actually be a different form of feudalism.

The kind that we came to these shores to escape.