E-mail to XXXXX re Bush* military service

[trof]

(just remembered we can't mention the name of a candidate in GD)
Dear XXXXX,

I think I know how to either get Bush to prove he served his full obligation, or show that he didn't.

XXXXX should make public his IRS filings for the period he served in the military. He should call on George Bush to do the same.

If I remember correctly, my Guard paychecks came from the U.S. Treasury Department. The Guard doesn't pay you if you aren't there to answer "present".
I should be a simple matter to see how much income Bush received from the Department of Treasury each year of his Guard obligation.

You can do the math on how much he SHOULD have received, had he been present each time he should have been.
12 monthly drill week-ends a year = 24 days pay
12 REQUIRED Flying Training Periods
(FTPs) per quarter X 4 quarters = 48 days pay
2 weeks Annual Summer Encampment = 14 days pay
86 days pay annually

Anything less for the six year obligation following completion of pilot training indicates no-show.

A couple of more points:
1. It's highly unusual that Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. If you kept
your nose relatively clean, you made 1st Lt. 3 years after your commission
as a 2nd Lt. Two years later, you made Captain. As long as you just put
your time in, it was automatic. That he didn't make Captain prior to his
discharge is very telling. Reason: He wasn't there long enough.

2. An Honorable Discharge is NOT "evidence" that he served his time. This
is one of the strongest "talking points" used by him and his supporters.
It IS evidence that his commanding officers violated ANG rules and
regulations. It's called "covering one's derriere". Had they NOT given him
an honorable discharge it would have called attention to the fact that they
gave him a pass and pointed up a serious dereliction of duty on their part.

Massey Lambard
Foley, Alabama
former Captain/pilot, 1963-1971
106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron
117th Wing, Alabama Air National Guard

[Wickerman]

1. Good post and note that Bush* said on MTP that he would

authorize his tax records to be opened.

[trof]

4. He did, then said he already had.

I still think XXXXX should do as I suggested.
If Bush* opens his tax returns, that will tell the tale.
If he doesn't, he has to try and explain why he won't.
Looks like we win either way.

[Wickerman]

18. exactly

if he's already released them then the evidence is there. If they've been scrubbed, then I see that as an indicator of guilt and an indictment on the entire Bush* family that should ring true to all Americans. Its obvious the family has the influence to make things vanish - when they do, that should be proof of their involvement.

[Skittles]

2. trof

I wanted to know what you thought when you saw that AWOL cowardly piece of SHIT strutting around that aircraft carrier in uniform. I tell you it made me feel physically ILL knowing he how seriously he had taken his real enlistment.

[trof]

3. I thought it was funny

that this former fighter pilot was walking around the deck with the crotch straps on his parachute harness still fastened.
That's what gave him that huge "satchel".

I can tell you from personal experience that it's very uncomfortable.
As soon as I was on the deck, taxiing in, with no need to be ready to eject, the first thing I did was pop those straps.

If I forgot, and tried to climb out of the cockpit without releasing them, it was EXTREMELY painful. Didn't happen more than a couple of times if you possessed a modicum of intelligence.

[PaDUer]

6. interesting..

"If I forgot, and tried to climb out of the cockpit without releasing them, it was EXTREMELY painful."

Which would only mean since he didn't undo those straps, that he doesn't have anything there to cause pain.

[loftycity]

5. Great Post and Thanks my Father is in the Air Force and has

said this since 1999. Thanks.

[arwalden]

7. Excellent Post, Trof...

Could someone have proxied for him? "Uh... Bush couldn't make it, so I'm here to collect his pay for him."

Was there "direct deposit" back then?

-- Allen

[trof]

9. No and no.

No proxy, and no direct deposit that I know of.
Pay checks were handed out at drill as I remember.
I think we were paid quarterly, since we were on a "quarter" system. We had 3 months to accomplish all of our requirements for that period.

More than you probably wanted to know, but:
Each quarter I had to "accomplish" 'X' many different requirements.
So-many landings, so-many NIGHT landings, so-many instrument approaches, and so-much instrument flight time.
So-many refuelings and so-many NIGHT refuelings.
Even "X" number (minimum) flight hours.

After each flight I filled out a form indicating which things I'd accomplished. Most of it was verified elsewhere, i.e. if I claimed a refueling and no tanker had been scheduled for our unit on that day, somebody would say "Whoa, how could he do that?" You had to be honest. Sometimes I'd slack off a bit in the beginning of a quarter and have to cram a lot of flying in to the last 3 or 4 weeks. But I either did it or didn't get paid. I liked getting paid. A lot.

[arwalden]

11. So This Simply Isn't A Matter Of ALL Records For His Unit Disappeared...

Correct?

From what I can tell only HIS records have disappeared. --- We don't have a case of an entire BOX of records being lost or burned in a tragic fire... only HIS records do not exist, while the other records of the people in his unit can be located.

I'm imagining the same will be true with his pay records. Everyone else's can be found, but only HIS will be mysteriously missing.

Hmm.

-- Allen

[trof]

14. OK, here's how it works.

When I got out of the guard, our squadron sergeant/clerk handed me my squadron file. It contained records of all of my attendance, training requirements fulfilled, grades on check rides, everything I'd done in 7 years on the squadron level.
He admonished me to keep them in a safe place because there were no duplicates.
I hung on to them for years, but can't put my hands on them now. Maybe disappeared in the last move.

When I was released from the active guard, I was transferred to the inactive reserves, and some files to that extent were in a cabinet somewhere in Denver. Remember, there weren't any computers generally available back then. Everything was hard copy or it didn't exist.

Several years later I had "served" how ever many years it was in the inactive reserves, I received my honorable discharge certificate in the mail, and I was finally a civilian again. My personal records were rendered kind of moot by then, so who knows where they went?

But IRS records don't die, and don't go away. That's where we could see if and when he served. All he has to do is release them.
The guard/Treasury absolutely DID NOT pay for non-performance.

[Davis_X_Machina]

8. This issue is going nowhere....

....because the party is about to nominate a candidate who said in '92:

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways."

Want to bet there's an ad already filmed & in a can on Karl Rove's shelf with that little nugget on it?

Kerry has already exonerated Bush on AWOL.

[trof]

10. I'm not so sure.

I'm surprised it has surfaced again, now.
I could parse "who served and how" several different ways.
Besides, it does not have to be XXXXX who does this. Just as the repugs do, we can use another mouthpiece.

[arwalden]

13. XXXX or XXXX will not risk making AWOL an issue... BUT...

it appears that this story now has legs now and that it will be a talking point for everyone else. This will benefit us.

-- Allen

[Bonobo]

12. Mods: Please do not lock this thread under any circumstances.

It makes me sad to see everyone has to jump through hoops like this to not be locked. Obviously the letter whould be sent to the frontrunner because it would have the best chance of having the desired effect.
If this thread is locked for the dubious reason that it is too close to mentioning a primary candidate, I will be seriously pissed.
Not a threat, just a warning.

[buycitgo]

15. Locking.

ha

once again the REAL issue here isn't so much his missing services days, but WHY the FFFFFF he quit flying.

the peepul can empathize MUCH more easily with the fact that WE paid like a million $$$$ to train this monkey, and THEN, he just QUIT!

he fricking QUIT flying!!! AND....he lied about the amount of time he spent flying, IIRC, right, according to his autobio.

time for some definitive answers on that

WHY?

make him anwer THAT one.

how's he going to answer THAT one?

[trof]

16. Thanks.

I remembered the "rule" in time to do XXXXs.
I think you can draw your own conclusions about where I sent it.

[trof]

17. OK, here's a personal experience about cost to train a pilot.

My close buddy, John, and I joined the guard together.
We hoped to go to pilot training together, but if you know the military, you know it doesn't work that way. I went to Oklahoma and John went to Arizona.

We kept in touch. He lasted for about 5 months. Discovered he had a psychological fear of flying that he could not shake. It happens. He washed out and was sent home to Birmingham. If you washed out, you were out of the guard too. That was the deal.

He had to report to our commanding general for mustering out. Here is, almost word for word, what the general had to say to him.
(caution-strong language to follow)
"You worthless son of a bitch. Do you know how much this state had to pay to get your sorry ass that slot in pilot training? Damn near a million dollars. A million dollars of our taxpayers' money. We had to buy that damn slot from the Air Force, whether your worthless ass made it through or not. You have cost us money and you have cost ME a goddam pilot. I WILL SEE YOUR ASS IN A GREEN UNIFORM BY FIVE O'CLOCK THIS EVENING. NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE!"

John drove from the guard base DIRECTLY to the Navy recruiting office and signed up.
Green Uniform = Viet Nam.
Wonder how *'s CO felt about the money they spent on his training?

[SoCalDem]

19. Didn't he START as a 1st Lt???

I thought I read that somewhere :shrug: