United States is NOT the best country in the world!

[usrbs]

It’s time to explode this jingoistic meme. What makes this the best place?

I was arguing with my 16 year old son, who being a centrist Democrat is the most right-wing member of our family and he came up with this statement when I was criticizing the pResident, “But Mom, America is still the best country in the world”, and I exploded.

In plenty of other countries I wouldn’t have to worry about losing my health care if I lost my job. In plenty of other countries I would have twice as much vacation as I have now (and I’m very lucky to have 3 weeks). If I was in a different country, perhaps I wouldn’t be working an average of 48 hours a week, after all we Americans work harder than most other Westerners. Not to mention that in many areas such as education, child birth, health care, the statistics show America not even in the top 10. And the average European is more well informed by far than the average citizen here, and much less prudish! And tell me, in what other Western country is there even a question about teaching evolution? I mean, sometimes, after reading about the school board Creationism battles and that idiot judge lugging around his stupid stone tablets of the 10 Commandments I find it hard to believe I’m not living in some primitive benighted third world country.

To top it off, Europe is way ahead of us in social connectivity, social and ecological awareness, and preparations for Peak Oil. And our Democracy, with it’s “perfect” constitution and it’s fabled system of checks and balanced is supposedly the best system of government in the world. Well, it hasn’t been working that well lately, has it?

But if you ever bring up facts like that you’re just a self-hating unpatriotic deluded Commie because, of course, as everyone knows - United States is the freest, the most Democratic, the richest, the absolutely no-f-ing-doubt-about-it best place in the world!

[Mari333]

1. I sent my sons overseas on purpose

and took them to Ireland to give them a first hand look at another culture...just so they wouldnt get the idea that the US was so grand..
they were pretty amazed..
Now they all travel, and for good reason, they know that the US isnt necessarily the best country in the world because they have been out of the US
show him some stats on the health and well being of other societies..he might be surprised..

[usrbs]

6. That's another thing - so few Americans travel abroad.

If they do leave the country, many times it's to go to Cancun or the islands, which doesn't really count. I wish more people did what you did, and sent their children abroad. We might become less insular.

[Vogon_Glory]

14. Insularity--And It's Getting WORSE

It's not simply the fact that fewer Americans are traveling abroad--it's that from a print viewpoint, very few Americans can see foreign magazines these days to see what other folks are thinking. The international magazines selections at news stands in major Texas cities are a black joke compared to even the smallest, backwater towns in France or Spain.

[billbuckhead]

2. Don't forget the highest percentage of it's people in jail,

many for victimless crimes. But we do have more rights to guns than any other advanced nation and we do have the death penalty.

[_Jumper_]

3. Where does the net flow of immigrants go between the US and Europe?

?

[usrbs]

4. I think the U.S is much more open than Europe, so it's easier,

but I'm not sure. Besides, Europeans know English, and know the culture as a result of Holliwood and TV, which isn't at all true in the reverse. If I were to immigrate to France or Norway, I'd have a lot more of work and learning to do - in language, and customs. So even if the numbers say that more come Europeans come to the U.S. than the other way around it doesn't prove anything. And, besides, this country is getting worse in some areas than it used to be, but the reputation lags behind.

[_Jumper_]

29. Good points

America is superior economically but lags behind Western Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ in virtually every social area. However, I do think that America is much less racist than Japan and Western Europe.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Your impressions are outdated

Immigration from both Western Europe and Japan is TINY these days--unlike when you were younger. Remember that until about 1960, both areas were basically still rebuilding after WWII. There was still the occasional ruin standing in Germany when I went in 1967.

In recent years, Japanese and Western European tourists, unlike those from other areas, have been getting automatic tourist visas at the airport, because they rarely overstay.

These days, the bulk of immigration to the U.S. is from places like Latin America, Southeast Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe--places where life is tough. In Portland, the major immigrant groups were Latino, Vietnamese, Korean, Russian, and Romanian.

In Minneapolis, they're Latino, Hmong, Vietnamese, Ethiopian, Somali, and various West African.

I currently know about half a dozen people from the U.K. who are living here, but they're here because of marriage, student status, or a specific job offer. The rest of the Western Europeans I know who came over did so decades ago.

[_Jumper_]

28. I said net flow

Obviously few people from Western Europe and Japan come here but few Americans emigrate to those countries.

Note: Canada is the #10 source for foreign-born Americans.

[Fixated]

5. .....I still think it's the best

Clearly we have flaws...but honestly I can't stand Europe. Something about the culture and the people makes me feel unwelcome. I'm not uncultured, and I know about their daily lives, but when I'm in Germany or France I feel like I'm extremely out of place.

[Mari333]

7. When I was overseas I felt like I was at home

much more then the US..Im staying in the US because my mom and kids are here..otherwise I would be gone.

[usrbs]

15. I too feel more at home in my own culture, but that isn't the point.

Look, I love many things about America, including just the magnificent landscape, the incredible feeling of openness you get when you get into your car in Boston and realize you can drive miles and miles and miles until you reach the other ocean, without border crossings, without ever losing sight of the golden arches. (It's horrible, but in some way, this commercial ubiquitous uniformity is strangely comforting.)
And the people are in general friendly and generous. Perhaps more than in France or Germany. But there are a lot of flaws, and this statement doesn't seem to stem from any reasoned thought, just jingoism.
Have you ever tried Australia? English, similar culture, great scenery, and the nicest people I have ever encountered.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. I feel at home in Europe. it's so civilized.

i'm not a huge fan of Germany, but Italy, France and the Netherlands are very welcoming (despite all the anti-French BS in this country, they're a pretty friendly bunch outside of Paris).

[bvar22]

31. Response to #5 "felt very uncomfortable".

Did you bother to learn their language? money? culture? history?
Did you bother to really see their country, or did you stay in the Americanized theme parks and order cheeseburgers?
Did you wear Bermuda shorts and sandals with socks?

[Vogon_Glory]

8. Standard of Living and Arguing With Liars

When attempting to argue with some of the pathological liars over on the Nut--Chase ISP, I attempted to point out that the US does not have the highest standard of living and was shouted down. I was unable to point to links or sources (And considering the thousands and thousands of links on a topic found on Google, small wonder) showing that certain western European social democracies have standards of living, better health care, and better educational opportunities than we do. I still seethe about that incident

I still love this country. But we progressives do need to bust the c*ck and bull "Amurrican" right-wing myth that the US still has the highest standard of living and that the US middle class (at least what's left of it) is ipso facto better-off than its European counterparts.

:grr: :nuke:

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. It is easier to keep a better standard of living

When you are not cast in the role of world policeman.

[Mikimouse]

30. We cast ourselves in that role, nobody to blame but us...

in addition, we only did so because we managed to convince ourselves that our system was superior to everyone else's. Total horsefeathers. If the US wants to police something, it should police itself.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Not true

Circumstances played a part, other nations play a part as does the UN.

The Cold War definitely set things up this way. With only one superpower, we are looked to as policemen.

I saw the UN and other nations urging the U.S. to send troops to stop the killings in Eastern Europe or to send troops to Africa. The U.S. has troops in a bunch of places and I don't see those nations pushing us to withdraw them. I'd be more than happy to pull out our 37,000 troops from South Korea. When Rumsfeld suggested that, the South Koreans freaked.

[cryofan]

34. please do all of us DUers a favor and ....

go read some Chomsky. Go to the library and checkout Manufacturing Consent. Please!

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. I have read Chomsky

Next question.

[JailForBush]

9. LOL!

"I was arguing with my 16 year old son, who being a centrist Democrat is the most right-wing member of our family..."

That's priceless! It illustrates 1) the generation flip-flop between the 60's and the present and 2) the sad state of the Vichy Democrats.

I spent sixteen years in public education. Our schools STINK, and Democrats are as guilty as Republicans.

We probably boast the world's finest propaganda, which, combined with electronic entertainment and our Soviety style schools, produces some of the world's biggest idiots.

Health? Europeans fight off genetically modified foods, while most Americans aren't even aware of them.

Tell your son you want to revisit your discussion on a couple dates, five and ten years in the future. If he doesn't see the decline in the American Empire now, he will by then. China's moving up in the world, while we're sinking.

Even if we elected a dragon slayer as President, it might take a generation to reverse the trend. President John Kerry would probably do little more than slow the decline, and I'm really not sure if any of the other candidates could or would really make a huge difference.

I won't say "deal with it," because I believe in fighting back. But I also believe in reality.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. If I were Education Czarina

I would make a junior year abroad a requirement for college graduation.

The college where I last taught had programs that allowed students to use their Stateside financial aid in several countries throughout the world, and it was sad that so few students took advantage or were even interested in the notion.

[usrbs]

18. In defense of my son, he's only 16.

And his 2 older siblings are firebrand socialists (and think I'm a liberal sell-out), so I think he tends towards the moderate middle just in self defense.

But you're right on about the schools. My first 2 children didn't go to traditional schools, and maybe that's cause, and not just effect of their different characters. I would have loved to get my son out of public high-school into something better, but I didn't have the money or the means, and the Democratic school in our area has devolved.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. In the current climate, be careful about what you say to young people

No one would want to put a youngster in the difficult position of wrestling with the question of whether a family member's "anti-American sentiments" rise to the level that should be reported to school officials.

[cryofan]

13. Why are we in more debt, fatter, and die earlier than NW Europeans?

We live shorter lives than western europeans (about 3 years). We are so stressed out from our commuting, rat race lifestyle, and scrambling to keep our jobs and our health insurance, that we overeat and go into debt.

The social democracies of NW europe make a less stressful life for their citizens: if they lose their jobs, it is not a major worry for them: they can get YEARS of unemployment or welfare payments. They will continue to have medical care for little or nothing. Daycare is state-run. Many people remark that the NW europeans live a more laid-back lifestyles. Damn right they do: they do not have to worry about living under a bridge unless they want to (some do, however: they would rather spend their welfare/dole on booze, much as the alkies here beg for money at street corners, then walk to the adjacent gas station to buy and chug a 40 oz'er.). They do not worry about being bankrupted by medical bills.

Granted, in some ways, we have it better than some EU countries, such as housing. In many EU countries, housing is too expensive. But this is in many ways a function of our being a large country with lots of space, and the fact that gasoline is not taxed as much here.

THere is NO WAY the USA is better than the NW EU countries for the MAJORITY of its citizens.

Check out my signature URL for links on social democracies.

[Mari333]

16. show him this

[usrbs]

20. LOL. I will. n/t

[Athame]

23. Okay, I have to print this map

Thanks, Mari333. I work in a university Education Abroad Program. Our office is filled with world maps. This one is getting posterized and plastered on my door! LOL


Unfortunately, it is all too familiar of attitudes of our students before they go abroad. Well, maybe not the commies part, but certainly the idea that the USA is CENTRAL and THE BEST...

Not when they come back, however. I agree that study abroad should be required for a complete education.

[Mari333]

25. heh I printed it out a couple years ago

and put it on my fridge..my sons all cracked up...
Its , unfortunately, the way my mother thinks..Im not kidding..I love her, but she is sadly clueless.

[southerngirlwriter]

17. Everything you say is true, however....

In plenty of other countries:

• You can't apply for and get food stamps if you need them
• You can't sue your boss for sexual harassment if he gropes you
• You can't show up at one of the ubiquitous emergency rooms and be treated in a crisis, regardless of your ability to pay
• You can't criticize your government without ending up dead


My point? Justice for all is not a reality here, but we are trying. Look at the recourses available for women and minorities today that weren't there just fifty years ago. Somehow, despite * and other fascists being in office from time to time, we manage to make progress.

I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, and I HAVE been abroad. But that's just me.

[usrbs]

19. That's true, but I was comparing just to the West.

We're obviously much better off than most other societies, but social democracy seems to me to be the better, more humane way to go. And of course it's not Utopia there. How could it be? It's full of humans.

[cryofan]

24. jeez...talk about a strawman! Are you comparing America to Africa?

We are talking about comparing America to NW Europe, not o Africa (that is just a WEE bit of a strawman....).

Those NW EU countries have MUCH stronger welfare states and social safety net, MUCH stronger worker protections, universal taxpayer funded medical (you don't HAVE TO wait until it is an emergency (you seem to have a gross conceptual error here: emergency rooms only take EMERGENCIES: if you have to wait until your tumor is a medical emergency, you are a dead person!), and with the advent of the patriot act, many of those countries are indeed freer.

BTW, all you have to know about the political culture of NW Europe is that they have FAR GREATER voter particpation rates than us. That kind of says it all. PLease read my sig URL at bottom here for links regarding social democracies....

[Leados]

21. The IDEA of America,

the Dream is what is so good, not the people per se. I think Jefferson knew what he was unleashing on the world, and there was nothing George Washington could to do stop it. America was created for Rich white guys by rich white guys, but somehow the dream went beyond all that, and it will always live on in some country, even if the US vanishes.

[indepat]

22. A goodly portion of what's most wrong with America, IMHO, stems solely

from a hard far-right agenda, most of which gets pushed through even when a Democrat is in the White House. Of course, anything barely left of center is communist-inspired whereas anything extremely far right is not corporatist/fascist. Yeah!

[Bonobo]

33. Sorry, but DUH! eom