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Why are anti-theist allowed to spread hate on DU?**rant**

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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:02 PM
Original message
Why are anti-theist allowed to spread hate on DU?**rant**
Why aren't they treated like any other asshole that comes to DU to divide us and start flame wars? Some idiot earlier today claimed that he now was going to make fun of gays and was banned, a course of action I agree with. Yet if someone posts a thread stating that they hate christians, not rare, not only are they not banned, but usually it takes an ADMIN to even lock it because the mods won't. Hell it's almost impossible to get even a post deleted regardless of content if it's directed at a christian.

I was even told once by a mod to "not read it if I don't like it." Amazing. And today I see that the anti-theists are back in full gear, freely spreading their hate all over the place.

I'm getting fed up with this bullshit and I know I'm not alone in this. Either enforce the fucking rules fairly or let us religious DUers know that we are not welcome so we can get the fuck out of your way.

If you want to question the behavior of a religion please do so, but do so respectfully for those of us who happen to belong to that group. Odds are we agree with you, like I do about the Catholic churches anti-gay marriage announcement. But if you blanket insult you will get a response because I feel that I shouldn't have to sit by and allow such crap to go on unchallenged.

/rant

Flame away anti-theists I'll go get some popcorn.
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Dob Bole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Flame Shield
I put this post under your post to separate it from the coming flames...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Then consider this a bunson
existence of (a) 'God' is debatable. :hi:
Live and let live. How many religions preach and PRACTICE that?
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Almost all of them
at the very least
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. not when they attack pregnant women
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:26 PM by NewYorkerfromMass
and their doctors.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Get a clue
.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Ah yes those people are obvioulsy
representative of christians world wide.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. I'll let the bible speak ....
Revelations 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Should'nt this really be
in the Ask the Admins forum? If you're truly in search of rules enforcement and/or Admin comments, you'd be much better served there, imho.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. They can move it if they wish
but it's a question GD on this day of rabid anti-theism should think about.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. But the concern is with what people do, perhaps changing behavior ...
not just asking a mod to ban behavior.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I was responding to this:
"I was even told once by a mod to "not read it if I don't like it." Amazing. And today I see that the anti-theists are back in full gear, freely spreading their hate all over the place.

I'm getting fed up with this bullshit and I know I'm not alone in this. Either enforce the fucking rules fairly or let us religious DUers know that we are not welcome so we can get the fuck out of your way."

Sounds like a topic for the Admins, that's all.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. maybe it's cause real Christians have sat by
and let people steal the word Christian and use it to spew hate all over the place. Its like the right stealing our flag.the word Christian is now synonimus with Fallwell,phelps/bush/robertson and the rest. Decent christians are hidng, shuddering, unable/afraid to speak out to the false prophets who own all facets of your varios sects. Christianity, through their aegis is fast approaching whacko cult status.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. sat by? BULLSHIT!
Falwell has found fantastic allies in demonizing "Christianity" in the anti-theist community. Between the two shouting and the media drive for conflict no give a damn what the real Christians have to say.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. sat by? ok debatable
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:45 PM by mitchtv
but i earnestly believe that when someone says"I am a Christian", that they are usually about to say something very unchristian.While thereare many "real" christians around. they are silent. the whining about christians being persecuted falls on deaf ears, cause they are doing a fair amount of perscuting in the name of Christ, themselves. when i hear them spouting thier bilge in jesus' name, i can only think of of some other characters in the New testament , the pharisees. There is nothing wrong with Christianity , per se, it is the 21st century american/roman permutation that is so hypocritical as to border on the ridicuous. by the way , I donot consider myself anti -thiest. I have a strong parochial 12year education. I have learned the words of Chist and disregarded the rest, I am a deist, a pantheist or pagan . I believe in God all of them. speak out! damn it expell those goddam money changers for get about non christians for a bit.
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. You are generalizing
I am a Christian, and I plan not to say anything to you or anyone else 'something very unchristian', as you say. I do not whine either.

My faith is mine, and I practice it quietly. I don't broadcast it and I don't evangalize. I respect anyone's decision to believe or not to believe. There are many times here on DU when someone I respect shows their prejudice, and I have to wonder how they can call themselves progressives.

I believe in the seperation of church and state; I am pro-choice; I support gay rights, their commitments with their loved one, and their legal union. And, while I strongly disagree with the neo-Christians, I will support their right to believe however they choose, so long as it does not interfer with your and my rights. Organized religion should not be in politics. While I may disrespect the neo-cons leaders, I will never disrespect their faith, anymore than I would a non-believer.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I wouldn't go that far
I've known many people I would consider to be good Christian people who cannot stand the terrible things that Pat Robem$ome and Jerry Fartwell have done to Christianity. Problem is, the media likes sensationalization so until Jerry gets caught in a motel room with two pre-teens and a strapon, the real Christians who criticize his hypocritical ass won't get any air time.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Sat by?
Dead wrong.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. I like most of the religious DU'ers!
I sincerely do. I don't agree with them on religious items but that's no big deal.

Just not the one's that bitch, and whine, all of the fucking time about those blue meanies, the Atheists.

Ciao
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. In other words you like the ones that quietly take a beating
Of course you do.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Note that the poster did not say 'atheists,' rather 'anti-theists.'
Most atheists respect the values of others. But some people attack others for having religious beliefs -- whether it's for having any at all, or for having beliefs in conflict with their own.

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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. yep,
it's a two-way street, and atheists are in the minority, yet somehow we are the evil ones :shrug:
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I try not to spread hate.........BUT
I try never to cast aspersions at someone's faith even though I am a person without "belief" (so to speak). And coming from a very religious and loving family I understand there are many layers to religion.

But last I checked, active membership in any religion is a choice. And with any choice we make in life it comes with responsibility and accountability. If I were a Catholic Democrat who belonged to the ACLU and people criticized any of those organizations then I would defend each and every one of them by answering people's questions and adressing the issues or problems they raise directly. Why do I support those organizations? Which of their policies do I think are the best and why? Do I worry about where my money goes when I donate to them?

And I would recognize that people are going to criticize things in ways that are sometimes respectful and illuminating and other times petty and juvenille and silly. But the bottom line is that I would recognize that with my choice to allign myself with any of those groups comes my responsibility to defend them that should be just as strong and undeniable as someone's right to criticize them.

Just one man's opinion. Like I said I try not to engage in any theism bashing since I recognize how vast and important and complicated a thing it is.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I agree with you
but how do you answer "I hate Christians" and how would you feel as a Christian if those types of posts were tolerated.

I have no problems with people questions either Christianity, I have problems with hateful insult that go unpunished.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
48. I personally don't hate Christians
I feel sorry for them for being involved with a religion that is dominated by right-wing idiots.

As a general rule, I find organized religion to be too restrictive, and in my opinion it is devoid of any verifiable factual content. The only completely open-minded church I've been too was a UU church, but they're not exactly what I'd call religious (spiritual maybe).

On the flip side of the coin, I find that atheism is a religion for some. To my way of thinking, the lack of evidence for existence of a god, doesn't mean there isn't one, only that there might not be one. As it stands, I'm a strong Agnostic. I don't believe it's even possible have verifiable proof either way.

Having hate for an entire group is always a bad idea. You can never hate someone you don't know.

we should all just sit down and have a beer together and work this thing out :beer:
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, DU a bastion of anti-theists
:eyes:
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Uh Oh!
(Phat beats.)

Bonus points if you get the allusion.

How's it going, yo? How was your move?

-C
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:30 PM
Original message
It's going wicked good!
Move was most excellent :-)
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. That's great news.
Enjoying New England life so far? No critical mass problems?

You're in Boston, if I remember right?

-C
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. I don't hate ANYONE. I vehemently oppose the rantings and idiocy of the
CHURCH however... and I feel bad for those that are slaves to it.

That's a lot different than hating someone.

I speak my opinion bluntly to shock some sense into those who are still conditioned and enslaved to that archaic and draconian, and albiet damaging belief system.

I call em as I see em. Being gay isn't a CULT. It just is. It isn't damaging, or judgemental, it just IS.

Being a member of this cult you people call christianity is a CHOICE and one you have to learn to question.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
22.  you certainly preach a lot more then the christians here
Being a member of this cult you people call christianity is a CHOICE and one you have to learn to question.

Anti-theism is a vile form of bigotry. Those that preach it are brain dead idiots or hateful bastards that the world would be better without.


How you like them apples?
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. remove the plank from your own eye...
"Those that preach it are brain dead idiots or hateful bastards that the world would be better without."
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. You missed the point
I was turning a anti-theist type comment back on a anti-theist.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. i predict you too will go atheist within the year
it's cool to be an atheist blue, catch the wave and chill. most of us were in the same mental state as you when we decided to grow a brain. now we are not upset when someone expresses an opinion not exactly like our own. atheism will quell the raging beast within you, you are full of hate yourself. where is your christian charity and centered wisdom and joy? either your chosen religion isn't working, or you need to drop out and tune in to humanity and secularism. no one attacked you personally, but you've done some pretty nasty attacking with this thread. whatever washes back at you, don't be too disgusted. you brought it on yourself, you aren't under attack by atheists. which is sad for you, because i know you really enjoy confrontation and hysterics.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. Another preacher
wow DU is full of them.

I would like to point out that this thread is aimed at 'ANTI-THEISTS' not atheist.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. This atheist says "No, sorry"
Jeez.

I've always been really into my skepticism and atheism, but...

after coming here, I'm ashamed to call myself an atheist.

Never once have I felt that religious people were dumber than myself, or brainwashed by a cult. I have learned so much from religious teachers, and am grateful for many religions.

THIS atheist calls the attitudes of some atheists on this board bigotry, for that is what it is. I know your game - I think many of you just enjoy looking down on the horde.

I'm switching to "agnostic" or something.

:puke:
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. I'd say that quote is abrasive
...but pretty mild compared to what we hear almost daily from the Christian Right.

And that wing of Christianity is the only one our media cares about.

This debate has been going on a while in the Unitarian Church, and they haven't made much progress on it.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. I don't have to like any apples. I'm not a bigot, nor do I hate anyone...
I abhor archaic and draconian belief systems based on gods and statues.

The world would be a better place without such stifling and ritualistic beliefs that are damaging to everyone involved.

That priests are allowed to molest children without punishment and while enjoying the full protection of the church; while at the same time excortiating consenting adults who want to establish a permanent union, is truly the classic case of the filthy hypocrisy that the church wraps its false morality around.

I see a cult. So I call it a cult. That's not hate or bigotry, but a simple, accurate definition. It's not an apple.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. That also applies to Jews and Israel too
You are right, Blue_Chill. Very few of the anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli threads ever get moved, along with the ones that are anti-white.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Unfortunately, even on DU
there are a few, ignorant asses that apparently can't handle or understand anyone believing differently than they do.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. Ooh, you got a smaller cross I see this time!
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:26 PM by robbedvoter
What happened to the one from the Exorcist? Nothing nobler than defending an oppressed minority - one that is suffering so cruelly victimized by the bush regime ("we are all sinners")! Carry on soldier, and no more personal abusive messages, please!

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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hello anti-theist
:hi:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. Fundamentalism in any belief system (or lack thereof) is a terrible thing
Take for example, Earth First. Earth First is a fundamentalist PAgan organization, IMHO. It's tactics are terroristic in nature. ELF has taken up the torch that EF used to carry and is a simlar organization. As a PAgan, I find their techniques and practices abbhorrent and anti-Pagan.

The anti-theism you've experienced is tanamount to Fundamentalist Atheism, IMO.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Thank you Walt
I agree Fundies are bad for everybody.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Good point
It is just the flip side and can be as fanatic as the other side.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. As a reformed anti-theist
I used to be an anti-theist myself. Blamed many of the evils of the world upon the religous but I finally realised that was childish. I am still an atheist, some days an agnostic. I don't care for what is done in the name of religion but I think most religions and truly religous people are ahead of the game on the good vs. evil situation.

or to put it another way. I think a lot of people are jerks and idiots. The fact that some of them cloak their idiocy (sp) with religion is irrelevant. They are just plain idiots. They shoudl not be confused with the true believers of all faiths.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
31. There seems to be a lot of protected hate speech on DU lately
It is all useless and demeaning. Free speech doesn't have to be cheap too but unfortunately it can be.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
35. I LOATHE fundamentalists' thinking
I was raised Catholic.. Did not "buy it" then...still don't.. I do not want to know your religious beliefs.. I do not go around telling people about MY doubts about what I was taught as a kid, and I could NOT care less what your beliefs are..

Take the with you to church...practice them at home with your family.. BUT..

Do not bring them to school and flaunt them to MY kids
do not take them to work, and offer to "save" your fellow workers
Do not expect others to worship the way you do..

Keep YOUR personal faith out of OUR government

disclaimer.The use you "your" and "you" are not directed specifically at anyone in particular, and are definietely NOT aimed at the originator of this thread..




If faith and belief help you or yours , that's hunky dory, but we have MANY faiths here in the USA and it makes me CRAZY to see all the religious dueling.. Yours is great, his is great, they are all great..just keep them OUT of the public arena..

that is all..
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. Correct me if I'm wrong, Blue Chill
But weren't you one of the people on one of the lengthier anti-Green threads going on about how they are the enemy and deserve no consideration?
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
40. When you aren't talking PETA you have a philosopy
that is admirable!
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:36 PM
Original message
er... if you can face the flames from this threat, with popcorn
maybe you can stand the horror of people bashing your sacred cow every now and then as well.

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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
41. er... if you can face the flames from this thread, with popcorn
maybe you can stand the horror of people bashing your sacred cow every now and then as well.

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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. How old were you in 1980?
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 03:47 PM by realpolitik
A lot of it is not from 'anti thiests', but from those of other faiths that were defamed, persecuted, or openly proselytized by Christians.

Were you around for the Helms Amendment? That is when I personally gained my biggest attitude problem with Christianity as an organized religion. All the Christians stood by while Jessie Helms introduced and nearly passed an amendment to remove my religions tax exempt status.

He clamed that Wicca was not a 'valid' religion. We spent a lot of time and effort getting that one killed, and I did not see much help from the Christian community then. Why, therefore, is it incumbent on Pagans to adhere to Rev. Niemuller's warning only now, when the Christians ignored their own's efforts to subvert and destroy the plualist society in the Reagan years?

I personally try to give Christians, Moslems, and other montheists the benefit of the doubt. But when someone identifying themselves as a Christian pisses in my well, I am not to blame when I yell about it.
If you don't like to feel like you are that kind of Christian, go out and do something to make an alternate statement. Then, when someone does gak on you, let your works and your faith in action be your defense.

I sympathize that you are not the kind of Christian that does these vile things. You are not Fred Phelps. But if you are a baptist, you are partially to blame for Fred calling himself Reverend. I am not the kind of Witch who steals babies, either.

I have to live with the centuries of defamation and persecution from Christians. Sadly, now you live in a very pale reflection of what Christianity did to other faiths. It sucks, and I feel for you. I also understand why others throw stones, no matter how wrongly. You, as a good Christian, might be well advised to mention politely to your detractors, that you are officially turning the other cheek.


I also think that Walt's point about Fundi Pagans is well taken, and I do not advocate spiking, or other injurious monkey wrenching to protest logging. But on the other hand, I have long held that 'Harm None' is not the first line in a suicide pact.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
43. I dunno I do hate the religious being attacked but
Ive seen inner religion disputes relatively minor but they annoy the hell of me between Catholics and Protestants. I do agree Rome is wrong on a lot of things but certain people never mention the good they do too. Now DU's athiests I consider many of them my good friends. Nice people most of them with Reverends Falwell and Robertson always on TV its no wonder people think Christianity is right wing. Most of DU's athiests are good people and the same could be said about the religious here good people, most of them are. I think my possible only disagreement with some would be that the pope is just as bad as Robertson he is not good on some things but on somethings I think, us and him would agree like fighting poverty. So I think we need to tolerate religion and athiesm which is in its own way a religion itself.
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. The problem with organized religion..
Religion is the *vehicle* to spirituality, it is the *means* and not the end. If one can achieve spirituality without it, then one should by all means discard of that crutch. Years ago a good friend of mine described this in a phrase that I still think of at least once a week, especially since 9/11.

“Organized religion is the means by which young people are convinced to drive truckloads of explosives into embassies.”

I’m sorry, but as an American, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are more important documents that the bible.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
50. The issue is how to give people equal rights
The issue is how to give people equal rights. Giving whites rights that blacks don't have was very much part of our society. Religious leaders would even point to Bible passages to justify bans on interracial marriage, segregation, and slavery.

Here is Howard Dean's very moderate position on LGTB issues, followed by the 2000 Green Party position (which mirrors Dean's position on civil unions).

The Marxist-Leninist position is that religion is a private matter, but that the state must remain atheist which simply means that sectarian orthodoxy must never be allowed to be translated into public policy. IOW, keep the bigotry within the churches and out of the law!

Equal Rights for All

I’m proud to say that as Governor of Vermont, I signed legislation to grant homosexual couples the right to enter into civil unions. This law, the first of its kind in the United States, guarantees lesbian and gay couples the same basic legal rights that married couples enjoy – the right to inherit property, obtain child custody, visit a partner in the hospital and control a partner’s affairs upon death.


The Republican Party seems eager to run against me because of my role in enactment of this historic law. I welcome that debate -- I can’t wait to ask the President of the United States why he doesn’t support equal rights. I can’t wait to ask him to repudiate the GOP-authored Defense of Marriage Act, an unconstitutional, mean-spirited law that stoked fears of homosexuality and pitted one group of Americans against another.


I’m tired of being divided. America is better than that. In this election, I promise that when Republicans pander to our lowest fears, I will fight back by speaking to our highest aspirations. I will offer the American people the chance to choose hope instead of fear, community instead of division, healing instead of hatred.

I’d like to tell you about my vision for an America that includes every one of us. As President I would:

Work to ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 bars employment discrimination based on race, religion, sex and national origin. But nothing in federal law prevents an employer from discharging or refusing to hire someone because he or she is gay. I will fight for enactment of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to remedy this gap in federal law.

Strengthen federal protections against anti-gay violence. The murder of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming was not an isolated incident but part of persistent anti-gay violence in the United States. I support enactment of the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act to help states investigate and prosecute bias crimes and to add “sexual orientation” to the list of protected categories in the federal hate crimes statute.

Give federal employees the right to name same-sex partners as beneficiaries. Major U.S. corporations such as Boeing, Ford Motor Co. and AOL-Time Warner have adopted human resources policies to allow employees to designate a domestic partner as a beneficiary of health and other employment benefits. The federal government should do the same.

End bias in the immigration laws. Current law authorizes family members of U.S. citizens and permanent residents to obtain immigrant visas, but the Immigration and Nationality Act's definition of family does not include same-sex partners. I support enactment of the Permanent Partners Immigration Act (H.R. 832) to add the term "permanent partner" to the statutory list of family members eligible to obtain immigrant visas.

End the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” Policy. Last November several Arabic and Korean linguists from the Army's Defense Language Institute were discharged for being gay despite the critical need for qualified linguists in the war on terror. That was wrong. As president, I will offer gay and lesbian soldiers the opportunity to serve our country openly.

Ensure access to affordable health care, including AIDS/HIV Services. My health care proposal ensures that all Americans would have access to affordable health insurance. This would be a major step forward for individuals suffering from AIDS, many of whom lack coverage despite the need for costly life-saving interventions. I also support increased funding for public health programs like the Ryan White CARE Act.

As President I will fight for the civil rights for all Americans – and that includes lesbian and gay Americans.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_equalrightsforall

Equality by sexual orientation, including gay marriage

We affirm the right to openly embrace SEXUAL ORIENTATION in the intimate choice of who we love.

We support the rights of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people in housing, jobs, civil marriage and benefits, child custody - and in all areas of life, the right to be treated equally with all other people.

Source: Green Party Platform, at 2000 National Convention Jun 25, 2000

http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Green_Party_Civil_Rights.htm

For more information on the Socialist position on religion:

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin


Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labor of others are taught by religion to practice charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

But a slave who has become conscious of his slavery and has risen to struggle for his emancipation has already half ceased to be a slave. The modern class-conscious worker, reared by large-scale factory industry and enlightened by urban life, contemptuously casts aside religious prejudices, leaves heaven to the priests and bourgeois bigots, and tries to win a better life for himself here on earth. The proletariat of today takes the side of socialism, which enlists science in the battle against the fog of religion, and frees the workers from their belief in life after death by welding them together to fight in the present for a better life on earth.

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen's religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men's consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm
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drdigi420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
51. I try to avoid insults
but I will point out that religion is a con game

you can disagree, but trying to get our veiwpoint censored is very undemocratic
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
53. Atheist here who agrees with BlueChill.
It was getting ugly on some threads.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
55. This is to the mods
Can I please get an explanation as to why this thread didn't get locked while one I posted which was similar in tone but about treatment of women was?

I fail to see any difference at all here. This poster mentions mods as did I. This poster complains about disparite treatment as did I. IMO this poster was right as was I. But even if we were both wrong as all get our or if he is right and I am wrong why the different treatment?

I would like my thread unlocked and kicked to the front page or some reasonable explanation given.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I am locking this thread
Questions about Democratic Underground policies belong in the "Ask the Administrators" forum. All discussion topics relating to Democratic Underground policies, procedures, enforcement, etc., which are posted outside of the "Ask the Administrators" forum will be locked or deleted.



NYer99
DU Moderator
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