The Catholic Respect Thread

[Dob Bole]

I'm not Catholic (though I've considered becoming one) but I have been the target of anti-religious bias on DU as well. Everyone knows that assuming moral authority over the Vatican does no good; if you want to change the Church, you have to do it from the inside. So if you're a Catholic, shout out!

[Clete]

1. Well, as an ex-Catholic, I can tell you, it won't happen.

The Church is dogmatic and does not accept any new ways of thinking because they believe that God has revealed everything that we need to know up to the death of St. Peter. Everything else is not accepted as the word of God.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rich Hunt]

13. appalling

On behalf of anyone who was raised in a humanist, Catholic tradition, I find that appalling.

:puke:

The church has more gay & lesbian history than you are willing to admit. Thank god I went to a church & school that had gay & lesbian teachers and gay deacons.

[radwriter0555]

35. Give me ONE reason why I should respect a cult, as opposed to innate

human nature?

People are a lot better off without the interference of cults, whether islamic or christian.

There is just simply no need for this archaic and draconian cult fervor anymore. We all know there aren't any gods. Time to give it up. "The Church" is a useless relic of the past and serves no one except the masters of greed and power.

[EAMcClure]

49. There aren't any Gods, huh?

Look inside your wallet, look at the money, and tell me how money works, where it comes from, and what you would do without it.

Then come back to me and tell me there aren't any Gods.

Look at the US flag, and tell me what it means, what it represents, and what a nation means.

Then come back and tell me that there aren't any Gods.

Eric

[Rich Hunt]

52. "cults"

You don't have to be in a religion to practice cult-like thinking, that's for sure.

[radwriter0555]

64. I completely fail to see your perceived relationship between money and

flags and gods and cults.

[EAMcClure]

68. Of course you don't, radwriter

That is why your post came off as so narrow-minded.

What is a god? An actual entity, a being that exists in some extra-dimensional space... Is a god a consciousness, an energy that permeates certain aspects of life?

The most simple definition of a god is a higher power. Money is a higher power. You as an individual, men/women as a group, humanity as a collective, can not predict and control economics. There are certain individuals and groups (clergy) who make it their business to put economics under human authority, but look around and see how well it works.

Nationalism is a religion. There is no such thing as a state but that which thinking makes real. The U.S. is often given the attributes of a God by normally reasonable people all over the world. Uncle Sam is an anthropomorphisation of the United States as a god-entity.

I would like to know what the word god means to you, and what a god would be for you to believe that a god exists. I, personally, see god as logos, not a being, but extension and attribute.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

99. Well sure, if you want to make something so utterly simple into something

astoundingly complex....

What for?

There are no gods. There isn't some mystical being ruling the planet and all things on it... It's illogical.

I can find a parallel between the muppets and your gods, if I dig deep enough, but why bother?

When tempered with simple logic, your argument in favor of gods becomes moot.

To make money into a diety of worship is well, strange.

I find it interesting that you persist in insisting I need some sort of gods to pay homage to, and that you insist on knowing what gods I find relevent. As hard as it may be to fathom, I simply don't do the whole god thing. I don't pray, I don't kneel or confess anything to any gods. I don't 'thank' anyone under my breath. I've managed to remove all reference to gods from my life, and oddly, no thunderbolts have struck me down, and even MORE strange, I'm a highly moral person. How is that possible?

What if you stopped thinking that we needed to do that? What if you removed the need for any gods from your way of life? I find it fascinating that people in the US are FAR FAR more programmed for religion that most other countries. I find it to be a form of mind control frankly. Christianity is so ingrained into this culture, but without a genuine need or relevence. People like you find it impossible to go about daily life without the inclusion of religious relics and iconry into your lives...

Perhaps you need to examine your own life to find what is so lacking that you must resort to letting a fabled institution control it so much. Perhaps a remote father figure, or some lack of control lead you to find guidance in a god, a bible and a building with statues in it, to make you lead a 'moral' life?

My life is fine without your gods. What is wrong with your life that you need false idols?

[EAMcClure]

104. Where are you coming from?

You are using "logic" as a shield and a sword, but if you took a second to actually READ what you wrote, you would find a series of assumptions. No logic, just value judgments.

You are making the primal, cardinal confusion by equating "god" with "entity" or "being." This is an endemic mistake, and I don't blame you for it... but you are using that mistake to pigeon-hole me in a place where I don't fit.

Firstly, I am not a Christian. Secondly, I do not worship entities. I revere and worship forces, energies, attribute, and substance. I also believe in religiosity, in the purest sense of the word (re ligare, to religament or put onself back together at the joints).

If you insist on defining god as an entity, that's fine... we are in agreement: there are no gods. I don't believe in an anthropomorphised being or beings. I do believe in gods, but since you didn't pay attention to what I wrote before, I don't expect you to note the difference.

"Perhaps you need to examine your own life to find what is so lacking that you must resort to letting a fabled institution control it so much. Perhaps a remote father figure, or some lack of control lead you to find guidance in a god, a bible and a building with statues in it, to make you lead a 'moral' life?"

I apologize in advance for this crudity, but exactly where the fuck do you get off saying shit like this to someone you don't even know? It is disrespectful, narrow-minded, bigoted, superficial, and above all inarticulate. You need to re-evaluate your approach to conversation, especially on such a touchy topic. A topic, I might add, you don't know much about. You think you know about religion, its institutions, and its purpose, but trust me radwriter, you are ignorant and in need of edification.

Reccomended reading: "Varities of Religious Experience," by Wiliam James

"Sepher Yetzirah," by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan

It sounds to me as if you read "Civilization and Its Discontents," and took Freud at face value.

Not even the ancient Egyptian priests believed that their myriad gods were entities, save one: Ra, the great encompassing being and father/mother of all... Plotinus type stuff.

If you want to talk more, just let me know in a civilized manner. No pandering or condescension. I'll lay off the Dutch Uncle treatment next time.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

109. Well I haven't read any of that stuff, my thoughts and opinions are my own

and always have been. I see you have a hard time understanding that someone can form their own opinion without influence outside of a rote manner of thinking... Don't you find your dependence on other people telling you how or what to think to be strange, or a lot of work?

You said "... I revere and worship forces, energies, attribute, and substance. I also believe in religiosity, in the purest sense of the word (re ligare, to religament or put onself back together at the joints). ..."

Well, why must you revere or worship anything at all? What's the purpose? Aren't there other things to think about -- or do -- in a day that would be more fun? entertaining? worthwhile, educational, inspirational, or perish the thought, productive?

Why not just look at a sunset and appreciate it for what it just IS, instead of strapping the credit for it onto someone or something else? That's just way too complicated.

Exist in the moment for a moment, without slapping a bunch of crap on it for justification.

It just all seems so complex to worry about all that crap all the time.

Me? Narrow minded? Hardly. I suffer from what the world seems to fear the most; freedom of thought. And stop taking this all so personally and seriously. There is no motive or agenda, it's just a discussion.

[EAMcClure]

110. There was a poem about a dog who found two bones

"I see you have a hard time understanding that someone can form their own opinion without influence outside of a rote manner of thinking... Don't you find your dependence on other people telling you how or what to think to be strange, or a lot of work?"

Okay, so I will live my life without being taught, without being educated, without learning from the wisdom of my elders, my peers, or their works. I will not attempt to analyze or synthesize the world around me. i will not use a compass when lost in the woods. I will not read a book when I already know what I believe. William James didn't tell me what to think... he's dead. William James did open my awareness to the sheer variety of belief, and that faith comes in all forms, and faith is as much free thought as your so-called deductions, which are unreasonable.

"Why not just look at a sunset and appreciate it for what it just IS, instead of strapping the credit for it onto someone or something else? That's just way too complicated."

The universe is a complicated place. Beauty is a complicated matter. The credit for a sunset does belong to something else... namely hydrogen and helium. What is the reason behind the furnace which powers life on earth? It is one thing to explain fission and fusion, gravity, spheroids, and light speed, and another to find an attribute lurking in the mechanisms themselves. A fundamental pattern, shape, elegance to creation, which to me does not pertain to intelligence but to creativity.

Something is responsible for life on earth... even "random thankless chance" is a something, and the study of statistics reveals a harmony inherent in large bodies.

"Exist in the moment for a moment, without slapping a bunch of crap on it for justification."

To live in the moment is to live reverently, to give thanks for existence by existing IN THE NOW. My beliefs accentuate this way of life... so we do have something in common. I, however, don't short-circuit my faculties in the name of "simple logic" (the name of the god you choose to worship, along with "free thought," another antinome you seem to give attribute and godly significance to).

"Me? Narrow minded? Hardly. I suffer from what the world seems to fear the most; freedom of thought. And stop taking this all so personally and seriously. There is no motive or agenda, it's just a discussion."

To quote Devo: Freedom of choice is what you've got, freedom from choice is what you want.

First, we weren't having a discussion. You were lecturing me as if you actually know a thing or two about faith. You can make blanket statements about me and box me in to some Christian box, based on some erroneous conception you have of religious people. And of course I was offended, because stupidity is offensive.

And you are narrow-minded if you view what you engage in as freedom of thought, and what I engage in as mental slavery (dependence on a cosmic father figure). The master/servant game is played all over the world, and you are not the first to abuse the rules. Just because you believe (have faith) in the notion that you are a free-thinker, does not mean your thoughts are free.

If there is one word that is abused more often than any other in the United States, it is "freedom." Everyone thinks they have some special privelege to be free in some aspect of their lives. Usually, it is that very aspect they take for granted as freedom to which they are most in bondage. Your thoughts on organized and disorganized religion reveal a singular lack of clarity.... but you confuse the mud for Evian.

Eric

[ElsewheresDaughter]

116. eric...whoah...eloquent and thought provoking words

thank you :loveya: my spirit is smitten

[radwriter0555]

123. eh you're just pissed that you got caught not being able to prove

your belief system isn't a cult by definition and action.

You're pissed that I'm right.

Compasses, poets, definitions, big words, personal attacks, insults.... don't take away from the fact that I'm right.

Christianity by definition is a cult. No matter what words you use to argue it, excuse it or defend it, the definition still stands. That is something I have faith in.

[EAMcClure]

128. The little Nero finally gives in

"Christianity by definition is a cult. No matter what words you use to argue it, excuse it or defend it, the definition still stands. That is something I have faith in."

That's fine. Stand by your definition and watch how far that takes you.

"Compasses, poets, definitions, big words, personal attacks, insults.... don't take away from the fact that I'm right."

And, ultimately, that's the only thing that matters to radwriter, FREE THINKER and master of SIMPLE LOGIC.

Fine, you win. Mea culpa. I'll never argue with you again. It's too difficult in the face of such SIMPLE LOGIC.

Eric

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Cults

The mere fact that you call it a cult says loads about the usefulness of anything you have to say.

[radwriter0555]

100. Defition of a Cult:

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
a. The followers of such a religion or sect.
b. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
a. The object of such devotion.
b. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest


The tenets of christianity fall well within this standard identification. The nuns, priests, praying, rituals, chanting, songs, gatherings, etc, are not "normal" or else everyone would do them.

[EAMcClure]

105. Look out

By including nuns and priests of an accepted worldwide institution under the category of cults, you are removing the negative connotation from the world, making cult acceptable.

You can use categories to encompass a broad variety of nouns, but be careful the circumference.

Definition 5b can include NASA, MENSA, the International Chess Federation, or labor unions.

Definition 5a can include the Stanley Cup.

Definition 4 can include Bayer, Inc. for its use of aspirin, whose scientific attributes have largely been reached ex post facto.

Definition 3 is too ludicrous to even get in to.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

108. I just posted what was in websters....

I didn't make it up...

And how is it that placing those nuns and priests within the definition doesn't make THEM part of the freak show, as opposed to making the term 'cult' acceptable?

Why not make it was it I? Understand that christianity is simply a cult. Take away it's credibility, its power, and learn to remove it from the norms of society? What would the horror be? What would the harm be? Would millions of people being guideless in their lives and fall prey to immoral actions if they don't have a god or a ritual?

[EAMcClure]

111. The difference between free thought and cheap thought

"Why not make it was it I? Understand that christianity is simply a cult. Take away it's credibility, its power, and learn to remove it from the norms of society? What would the horror be? What would the harm be? Would millions of people being guideless in their lives and fall prey to immoral actions if they don't have a god or a ritual?"

No, people can be perfectly moral and ethical without religion. I never said that. If anything, those cultures and governments most ruled by organized dogma (dogma, i.e., structure, is another god) are most prey to immoral acts.

Second, I know your definition came from the Dictionary. That does not mean that you can apply the definition however you see fit unless you are willing to accept the TERMS of your argument. By your terms, political parties are cults as much as Christianity. If you can accept that, then by all means Free-Thinker, take the reins and ride that horse!

Christianity is not simply a cult any more than people are simply beings of volitional consciousness, or carbon bags filled with water and trace elements. Funny, but to say "Christianity is simply a cult," doesn't smack of free thought. It actually has the bitter taste of persecution.

What are the "norms" of society? How does a civilization normally operate. What parts of the civilized mechanism would you remove in order for it to function more "agreeably" or more "smoothly"?

Eric

[ElsewheresDaughter]

115. EAMcClure WOW

thanks :toast:

[EAMcClure]

118. A toast to freedom

In talking with radwriter, I remember a "debate" on the existence of the Christian God at my College. It was one of those setups that could be a joke: An atheist, a priest, and a rabbi walk into an auditorium....

Anyhow, at one point, the atheist discussed (rather eloquently) how Nietzsche used "God is dead" to underline the lack of connection modern man feels with organized religion, and how that lack of connection points to an actual lack of God itself.

The rabbi, with his thumbs tucked under his dress shirt, smiled warmly and said, "Of course God is dead! Take a deep breath. You can smell his rotting corpse!"

It's not just the atheists that can think freely.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

117. Firstly, I'll not attribute any other issues or groups to being a cult

because that is not part of the argument. The argument is whether or not christianity is a cult. I say by its definition that it is. I don't need to factor in any other group to justify my position, as the position alone stands very clearly. There is no need to muddy the waters of a perfectly good definition.

And secondly, I'm not oppressing, harassing or bothering anyone with my point of view; i.e., I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm not imposing my point of view on anyone. I'm stating my opinion in a forum for debate and discussion. Don't make how you feel about my opinion into my problem. You are free to engage in this debate, and free to leave it as well.

I stand firmly by my position, that christianity and its relatives of judaism, islam and the moonies, and who knows who else, are all simply cults. Therefore, I can't take them seriously, and frankly, I'm appalled that these beliefs are force-fed to so many people. Worse, I fear for the state of the society that doesn't question such intrusive impositions without so much as a by your leave.

A society that allows itself to be lead off down a path so lacking in logic and reality is a frail one, that sadly, tends to reap what it sows.

[EAMcClure]

121. Simple Logic: Only Begotten Son of Radwriter

"because that is not part of the argument. The argument is whether or not christianity is a cult. I say by its definition that it is. I don't need to factor in any other group to justify my position, as the position alone stands very clearly. There is no need to muddy the waters of a perfectly good definition."

You can't have it both ways. By liberally applying the definition of cult to Christianity, you are leaving the definitive door open for other groups to fit in... perhaps groups you yourself admire and/or affiliate yourself with. It is a perfectly good definition, and you have strethc it to its very limit in order to degrade a system of beliefs and call its ardent practicioners a freak show. I find that persecutory.

"And secondly, I'm not oppressing, harassing or bothering anyone with my point of view; i.e., I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm not imposing my point of view on anyone. I'm stating my opinion in a forum for debate and discussion. Don't make how you feel about my opinion into my problem. You are free to engage in this debate, and free to leave it as well."

I didn't say that... I did say your ideas have that scent, that odor of persecution. Using code words like "simple" and "logic," to make that which isn't "simple" or "logical" somehow wrong or repulsive is the behavior or the fundamentalist, the fanatic.

"I stand firmly by my position, that christianity and its relatives of judaism, islam and the moonies, and who knows who else, are all simply cults. Therefore, I can't take them seriously, and frankly, I'm appalled that these beliefs are force-fed to so many people. Worse, I fear for the state of the society that doesn't question such intrusive impositions without so much as a by your leave."

Here comes the paranoia. They are all simply cults, they are all simply things which people do IRRATIONALLY, without LOGIC or FREE THOUGHT. They are forced into it, and it is the duty of FREE THINKERS to LIBERATE these poor men, women and children, from their shackles like you yourself escaped from Plato's cave.

I fear for the state of society that sees beliefs as an imposition, and all religious instiutions as cults. If cult is such a demon word, how come it defines all religion in your free-thinking mind? Well, save for one religion: SIMPLE LOGIC.

"A society that allows itself to be lead off down a path so lacking in logic and reality is a frail one, that sadly, tends to reap what it sows."

So lacking in logic, so lacking in reality, eh? Just replace those two words with God and faith and you sound just like a neo-conservative. Let's not play fanatic mad-libs, radwriter.

Just accept that you worship SIMPLE LOGIC as a god, and that SIMPLE LOGIC is your religion, because you apply SIMPLE LOGIC with the fundamental ill-clarity of a Puritan.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

124. I like how you tried to some callibrate our belief systems, and tried to

in a way, attempt to understand my belief system, or lack there of with yours, by insisting that I must worship something, i.e., "worship simple logic." I find it also interesting how you've clung so tightly to that one phrase and have used it a number of times. For some reason that phrase really bothers you... which is interesting I suppose.

I don't worship anything and I don't need a god.

Why do you?

I'm not here to liberate anyone from anything. I'm just participating in a discussion that has you all wound up. You keep accusing me of all manner of things, when all I'm doing is defending my position that religions are cults. Which you still haven't disproven, by the way. Why is it so terrifying for you to define your religion as a cult?

[EAMcClure]

129. Atheism is such a kewl independent and rebellios choice!

"I'm not here to liberate anyone from anything. I'm just participating in a discussion that has you all wound up. You keep accusing me of all manner of things, when all I'm doing is defending my position that religions are cults. Which you still haven't disproven, by the way. Why is it so terrifying for you to define your religion as a cult?"

It's not my religion, and you are on a merry-go-round. By your definition, your liberal application of Mirriam Webster, you have concluded that Christianity is a cult, and that cult indoctrination is wrong and against FREE THOUGHT.

I can use your liberal definition to include many groups and organizations under the rubric of cult. If that is what you want, then that is fine. You can live with that definition and its ramifications. I am, in a small way, trying to point out the error... but alas, your SIMPLE LOGIC is too powerful and eloquent... it must be because your thoughts are FREE and INDEPENDENT. While my thoughts are slavish and cultish.

"I don't worship anything and I don't need a god."

Little do you realize that you already have a god, and that you are already fanatical in your worship of that god. The god of simple logic, blessed be he.

(Why do I think I have been peanut-tossing with a teenager?)

Eric

[radwriter0555]

131. It's funny that not once did you try to debate the issue, but only kept

trying to state, and restate over and over, what YOU thought I think.

Never once did you defend your position, which remains unclear. All you've managed to do, over and over again, is descend to insults, name calling and baseless rhetoric.

So very holy of you. I'm sure you find true divinity in such hostility and suppressed rage and witty, biting sarcasms.

You still can't tell my why you need a god so badly.

[EAMcClure]

170. Dance, FREE THINKER, dance!

"You still can't tell my why you need a god so badly."

The might radwriter controls the terms of the debate!

It's not a need, man, it's a belief, beliefs you know nothing about. I gave you a peek into how I believe, but you have insisted thus far on playing some strange game (Chutes and Jacob's Ladder).

You called Christianity a cult. I said, hey, if you are going to be so flexible with your verbage, be prepared to face consequences. If all organized religions are a cult, then the word cult ceases to have meaning. Religion = cult, then what is religion? Of course, in your perfect world, religion is a crutch, a magic feather, and all the Dumbos of the world don't need it when there is the much better alternative of SIMPLE LOGIC and FREE THOUGHT.

Further, you heard my definiton of god as higher power that can be neither fully predicted or controlled. I believe in the realm of the mystical, the unexplained, and I have faith in concepts I'm sure your INDEPENDENT mind would reject at face value. That's a difference between us that I won't exploit.

You, however, have been a chauvinist pig. That's why I am getting more and more ugly with you. You want me to answer your questions while you casually dismiss mine... this is not how you win a debate, unless of course you are a think-tank Republican.

Fact: I, nor anyone else who has faith in any religion or creed, does not NEED the religion or creed. It is not a drug habit. I have run a spiritual gamut. I was raised Catholic (Irish), recovered and adopted atheism... well, I just simply could not find a reason to believe in religious doctrine and the Holy sky-god in the sky. At the time, I was narrow-minded... in fact I also revered SIMPLE LOGIC.

Now, I am a pagan. I believe in the orgone, synchronicity, the law of averages, and magic. I respect all belief systems, and I further believe that all belief systems are valid to the individual practicing them. Those who choose to abuse dogma are abusers. Religion does not make the fanatics, fanatics make the religion.

I am open minded, something a FREE THINKER like you should appreciate. Instead, you are gandy-dancing on this board under the pretense of enlightened individualism. You have a lot of growing up to do.

Eric

[radwriter0555]

200. Oh story time then. Okay, at age 4,5 & 6 I kept getting kicked out of the

various sunday schools in my town, because I just asked too many questions. I just didn't understand why the whole town went to churches and read all these stories and prayed to this god, in different kinds of churches. As I grew older, I observed how christianity has saturated this society. I didn't understand how so many just believed in all these stories with such fanatical devotion, without ever going 'huh?' Even then I was flumoxed by people who just did what they were told to do without any question, like marching lockstep. I still don't understand those people but unfortunately, the US is as saturated with them as any islamic country. Take away the burqas and the US' version of religion is pretty much the same as any muslim country. The same slavish devotion, stories, chants, rules, praying, songs. Rituals devoted to a piety that really doesn't exist. I find that most christians are very hypocritical which then brings me back around to the absurdity aspect that I observed as a kid.

I find that religious rote is mind control. The same elements are used when the freaky and fanatical cults (koresh, jim jones, moonie types) want to gain control of subjects, and in institutions as well. There are extremes of these elements which are disturbingly similiar to the basic rituals used in christian churches, which brings me back around to the usage of the word 'cult'.

Then we can examine the origins of christianity and the rituals used in it, which are among the most hypocritical and inane aspects of todays society.

I have no feelings for any of this. All these conclusions as I was growing up were just observations. I've never cared to examine the issue to any great length and never felt the need to align myself with any athiests, agnostics or pagans, which is the LAST group I understand. The whole pagan thing is really totally and completely lost on me. No offense, but it's like kids wizards and witches games.

One of the greatest disappointments of my life was in my recent trip to europe. I wanted to visit the heart of tuscany, florence, to see the grand museums filled with fantastic art. I'd dreamed of this my whole life... But sadly virtually all of what is considered great art was picture after picture of jesus in some form and mary in another. After a couple hundred of these interpretations I stopped buying any more museum tickets. It's sad that the church had so much control over the greatest artists that ever lived, that they could only portray this iconry as a ways and means to stay alive. How sad they didn't get to express themselves except for the rules of the church...

I wonder what they would have created if they hadn't been forced to earn a living at the hands of the church... how different things could have been were men not ruled by gods.

[EAMcClure]

219. Thank you for your explanation

I respect the route you have taken. I do... I questioned my Catholic upbringing from a very young age as well. My grandmother prayed to St. Anthony in order to find lost objects (she was always misplacing things... everything except the rosary she used to pray to St. Anthony!), and I wondered what for? I followed the train of thought until it went off a cliff... I renounced the faith of my family and decided that no religion was valid.

"I find that religious rote is mind control. The same elements are used when the freaky and fanatical cults (koresh, jim jones, moonie types) want to gain control of subjects, and in institutions as well. There are extremes of these elements which are disturbingly similiar to the basic rituals used in christian churches, which brings me back around to the usage of the word 'cult'."

I understand. The prayer, genuflect, and ritual repetition can come across as mind control... much like reciting the national anthem. However, there is an underlying power to Catholic ritual that is undeniable to those who have experienced it first hand. I know, to someone like you who has both feet on the ground it may seem like insanity. However, there is much to this universe, and much to the power of the human mind, that has yet to be discovered. The undiscovered country, both macro and microcosmic, are mysteries that deserve our fullest attention.

There is a difference between Koresh, Jim Jones, Hubbard, Moon, et al. and the major religious institutions... and that is the leadership. No member of the organized institutions claim that they have privileged access to God's word, nor do they claim to be an incarnation of the messiah. When the crazies take over and start waxing messianic, that is when ritual becomes mind control, because the ritual is giving power to the messiah and not the flock. The shepherd is nor the law, he or she is merely the guide.

"I have no feelings for any of this. All these conclusions as I was growing up were just observations. I've never cared to examine the issue to any great length and never felt the need to align myself with any athiests, agnostics or pagans, which is the LAST group I understand. The whole pagan thing is really totally and completely lost on me. No offense, but it's like kids wizards and witches games."

Given our so-called debate, I can't take offense at what you say about my faith, or anyone else's faith. You have adopted a belief system which sets you apart from the majority. I have as well. There is a certain open-mindedness and humanism I see lacking, but that comes with age and/or a life-lesson from above.

Since you don't understand paganism, Wicca, or hermetic ritual, or whathaveyou, I can understand why you can think it is somehow geeky. In a way, it is... trying to unearth buried tradition isn't the most socially acceptable thing to do. I don't mind that any of this is lost on you... we're from two different worlds. I won't try to convert you, sacrifice you, or hex you. People with your kind of worldview are just as necessary to life on this planet as anyone else. The only thing I ask of you, POLITELY, is that you keep your opinion what it is... a value judgment, and nothing more.

You are well within your right as a FREE THINKER to call organized religion a cult. But don't expect to get taken seriously. That is because you are not coming from a position of respect. Instead, you are coming from a position of perceived superiority.

"I've seen through this illusion, why haven't you?" Not everyone sees the world through your lenses, radwriter. Some of us cultivate mystery, revere nature and the cosmos as a divine spectacle, and yes, GO TO CHURCH. That doesn't make us primitive or deluded, and it sure doesn't make you better if you don't. It just makes you who you are.

"One of the greatest disappointments of my life was in my recent trip to europe. I wanted to visit the heart of tuscany, florence, to see the grand museums filled with fantastic art. I'd dreamed of this my whole life... But sadly virtually all of what is considered great art was picture after picture of jesus in some form and mary in another."

If you can't study the composition, color, and inherent genius of a work of art, no matter what the subject, than I don't know what to say. "All those silly cave-painters just kept painting animals." "All Degas does are ballerinas."

Eric

[radwriter0555]

226. Nice reply, thanks for the civility. Funny you bring up the national

anthem because that's another form of reverence that I eschew, that and the freaky pledge of allegiance. I believe the USA is the only country in the world where it's people stand up and say an allegiance to a piece of cloth. Very odd ritual. I tend to shy away from doing anything the herd tells me I must.

I happen to think that people who aren't aligned with gods and dieties are possible slightly more evolved than the average bear. Just a thought, a possibility... and not a cause for superiority. I'm not above anyone. Like you said, it's just who (we) are, and my thoughts are merely commentaries and observations.

I LOVED your statement on art! That was awesome! Gave me such a huge grin, I hadn't thought of it that way. I truly did appreciate all the composition, color and the genius it took to create the imagry I saw... but what if that same genius had been allowed to 'travel freely", to tell us of travels, and living people, and landscapes and towns and cities and vignettes? I found it sad to confine all that astounding genius to the stories of the bible. Luckily there were a couple of Da Vinci exhibits in the Louvre and in Tuscany with his astoundingly out of the box creations... he was such a genius. Luckily Degas also liked portaiture of naked chicks and chicks getting out of the bathtub as well.

One of my comments to my daughter after all this art in europe was that "dang! there were lots of chicks just laying around naked waiting to get painted, weren't there!?" Too many espressos tend to cant one's point of view about things.

[Woodstock]

144. You have no idea what Christianity is about

You see, there was a guy named Jesus. And he brought a lot of hope and love and guidance to an awful lot of people. And still does.

Sure enough, given free will, a lot of other people decided to distort Jesus' teachings in exchange for control, power, money.

But to say that the second group of people = Christianity shows a DEEP flaw in your arguments.

[Cheswick2.0]

228. This is an example of religious bigotry and against the rules

It is one thing to say that you are against the politics or public actions of the catholic or any other church. However your post is ignorant religious bigotry and I have alerted it.

[Blue_Chill]

232. so then you define normal?

The nuns, priests, praying, rituals, chanting, songs, gatherings, etc, are not "normal" or else everyone would do them.

Most people do. So if majority doesn't define the norm what does? You?

I don't think so.

[Nicholas_J]

25. Hardly

Catholic Theology may appear dogmatic, but the Catholic Church possesses the widest ability to disagree among its membership. While it disapproves of contraception, It has not authorized the excommunication of Catholics who uses contraceptives. It has acepted the written differnces in ideas of MANY different Catholic Writers and Priests who write on ideas separate from the Catholic Church. The Catholic church is the ONLY Christian Church that has formally recognized that ALL religions possess truths given by their idea of an eternal supreme being, and that all are capable of being accepted by that being if they follow the religious precepts they were born to as fully as they are able. You will NOT find this ideal propounded in the RULES of any Protestant faith as it is in the Catholic Catechism.

Having several graduate degrees. One in history, the history of the church is as filled with the liberating and advanced ideas of men, as it was filled with conservative men of power trying to keep things the way they are. The Churchs is as tolerant of Franciscans as they are of Jesuits. As different as a bunch of bird loving hippies and the Harvard Debating Team. For the most part, the Catholic Church has been more open to change than the U.S.changes in government that have occred in the United States in the last 200 odd years.

The Catholic Church officials who handled pedophila by transferring predominantly GAY pedophiles. But given the possibilities of destroying another life, by attacking that pedophile, they long ago showed a sense of understanding that these were not monsters, but sick people. But they are not psychiatrsits or doctors, and handled the situation in the only way that their limited knowledge of a disease enebled them. To remove them from the temptation. But then again, only the Catholic Church is supposed to be run by those who are more than human, less hypocritical. more holy, and held to higher expectations than others.

To be honest I have found that DU by and large has more than its share of pompous ignoramuses who think they know it all, and even more so, who are so BLIND in their mindless support of candidates than I am not surprised that the United States is becoming a right wing dictatorship. When one of the major candidates of what is supposedly the left is as right wing as anyone on the Republican side of Congress, perhaps it is time to pick up and move to a truly liberal nation like Liberia.

[dsc]

56. So now we know why you hate Dean

I hope anyone who takes you seriously at all reads this post about gay pedeophiles. You let it out in the open.

[XanaDUer]

71. What do you mean?

May I speak for him?

the argument was, attacking all catholics and saying that they are supporting pedophilia by supporting the catholic church is similar to attacking all gays who support gays because SOME gays are pedophiles.

What does Dean have to do with this?

If you are going to attack the Catholic Church, as all those who support pedophilia, using the same illogic, you must assume Dean supports Dean supports the same by signing the Civil Union Act, because some gays may be pedophiles.

This argument is irrational.

[Nicholas_J]

72. It is factual

That a large number of the pedophiles in the church are gay. It would seem odd for a male to sexually abuse a male child and be straight.

You are a real damned ass, and my argument was sympathetic to pedophiles, that they should be treated humanely and not criminally.

You should be treated criminally.

I hope those who read this post reaopize that many Dean supporters are not very smart, and attack anyone who opposes Dean visciously., therefore this must indicate something unseemly about Dean.

Notice, my thread was not deleted, while theses trhead were closed for a while, but many others were, indicating that the moderators found my response to be acceptable, and not a false attack like yours.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

96. Do your research...

"It would seem odd for a male to sexually abuse a male child and be straight."


The majority of pedophiles self-identify as straight, not gay. The notion that pedophile=gay has been an incredibly damaging error that too many people have used to hurt a particular group.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

172. YOur facts are not correct. And 97% of ALL sex crimes are

committed by heterosexual males.

[Cheswick2.0]

229. now if we could outlaw those abusers from society

....oops, we can't.

You are right and what is even scarier is that more men abuse their biological daughters than step daughters, at lease in my county. I read the stats and it made me want to scream.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

119. and Nicholas_J i've always been an admirer of your mind too

:loveya: :toast to your mind

[Clete]

155. So that poor sweet nun with a few degrees in Theology

must have lied to me according to you. You seem to also think that might makes right.

[CHIMO]

208. 20 Years of Conservatism

Don't know where you have been for twenty years but just look at what has happened to the Jesuits. They have been shut up. The best minda in the church.

Must be nice to be so intelligent.

[Loonman]

2. Former Catholic

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/212/metro/O_Malley_s_homily_reveals_a_frank_devout_humorous_man+.shtml

I support the new archbishop, Franciscan Friar O'Malley who will get the job done instead of shirking like sniveling and cold-hearted Cardinal Law.

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. I'm half Catholic

But the church can go to hell. It's betrayed the entire flock and is worse than the Republican Party in my opinion.

Of course, I'm also half Jewish and I have major problems with Israel, so maybe I should just stay out of commenting about religion.

It gets me too angry.

[Dob Bole]

6. How can someone be half-Catholic?

Is Catholic a new race? I thought a religion was something people choose, not a birthright...

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. because silly

My dad is Jewish and my mom is Catholic.

I celebrate both religon's holidays. At least the one's where you get presents.

:)

[Dob Bole]

24. haha....

Must be sweet getting all those presents. Still, I've heard people say that they're both Christian and Jewish, or choose one or the other, but I've never heard a person claim half of each. Makes sense now though.

[Submariner]

22. You thought wrong

Choose?.....not a chance. It was beat into us by the nuns. Believe this or else.....eternal damnation in the flames of hell.

Choice never had anything to do with religion. We were indoctrinated daily from birth on the basis of what they called 'faith'. I think it's called brainwashing nowadays.

Education comes first, then choice can become a factor.

[Rich Hunt]

27. are you pre-Vatican II?

That was a bad time for Catholics.

I grew up in the liberal 70s, with hippie priests in sandals and all.
No hell flames, just face-to-face reconciliation and folk masses.

:)

[Submariner]

40. Probably

I was brought up in 1951-65 Irish/Italian catholic Boston. What I recall mostly was the 'fear of the lord' concept they drilled into us. It caused a lot of undue anxiety no kid needs to endure.

[Woodstock]

148. Me, too, I loved those folk masses

I still remember the songs. They were seriously cool services. :)

[drdigi420]

74. It's called terrorism

Pursuasion and rule by threat of eternal damnation (for those gullible enough to believe it)

[Ellen Forradalom]

8. Which half?

Upper or lower?

[Character Assassin]

4. Eh, they almost excommunicated Meister Eckhardt

But the clever bastard up and died before they could get to him.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. O.K. Lapsed ex here.

Teaches good morals. I ahve read other testimonies here and elsewhere that Catholics tend to be among the most kind and understanding people you'll meet. Especially us lapsed ones! :)

[Character Assassin]

26. Tut, tut. I have no issues with Catholics...

After all, that was waaaaay back in 1327.

The current members of the church bear no responsibility for that.

Plus, I love discussing things with Jesuits. So much more interesting than, say, Pentecostals.

[arcane1]

33. you haven't said anything good about them either! LOL

set an example!

[Ellen Forradalom]

7. Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian

You're always welcome to join us. There's always traffic between Rome and Canterbury. Every time the Vatican annoys its flock, a few jump to the Anglican Church, and vice versa.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. I don't believe you are Catholic

or you wouldn't utter something as revolting as "screw gay marriages". I have alerted this message.

[LuminousX]

28. Gay Catholics...

So you are directly saying that Gay Catholics are not welcome in this thread?

[Nicholas_J]

73. I was raised catholic

married in a High Anglican Mass as my wife was Anglican, and the Anglicans accept Catholic baptism so you do not have to become Anglican if you are a Catholic.

[Um_Yeah]

10. Still Catholic.

I dont go to church very often.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. I am a Catholic

There is seperation of church and state in this country. The state doesn't have to have the same view of marriage as the church. The RC Church. doesn't recognize those married by the state as being married anyway.

[OrdinaryTa]

50. Civil Marriage

The RC Church doesn't recognize those married by the state as being married anyway

No, that's not correct. I don't know if that was ever true, but it's certainly not true now. The Church regards marriage as a contract between the two people who are getting married. That does not preclude recognition of a civil marriage ceremony as valid. This is true even in the case of a Church annulment of the marriage.

[Nicholas_J]

75. The catholic church

DOes not recognize any marriage outside of the church as a VALID, marriage, but they are recognided by the catholic church as LEGAL marriages. There is a distinct differnce in the Catholic Church but a VAlaid marriage has to do with the sacremental nature of marriage, and not legal status. A gay can be catholic, stay catholic, engaging in gay sex is comnsidered sinful, and the church wil not recognize gay marriage, but you can be gay, not engage in gay sex, and be considered a good catholic. The churches stance on gay sex is not related to the fact that it is gay sex, but that it is sex outside of marriage, and the purpose of sex withing marriage is procreation, so gay sex as a sin has the same status as sex outisideof marriage, and sex without the possibility of procration (contraception) You can be gay, engage in gay sex, go to confession, unburden your soul, nad be granted absolution.

Gays have a problem with that as they do not beleive what they are doing is sinful. I was eraised Catholic, have a gay sister, And half a dozen gay relatives of one degree of co-sanguinity or other. I dont give a damned, the family parish doesnt give a damned, and certainly my gay uncle who is a priest doesnt give a damned, I dont ask about his sex life, he doesnt ask about mine, and we get along fine.

A lot do not like the church, but many become priests. AND many stay in the church and deal with their own contradicions the own way.

Most of the anti-catholic idiots are simply liberal who are really bigots. Others like Howard Dean, show their bigotry in subtle ways, by denying methodone clinics because of what happened in neighborhoods in which they are placed, and Vermont becoming a magnet for heroin addicts, though he could never come up with any damnmed good medical reasons, as there were none. This was Dean, who did his internship in the South Bronx because he didnt graduate high enough in his medical school class to get an intership at Columbia Presbyterian, and then moved to lily white Vermont, and passed laws that said NOT IN MY LILY WHITE BACK YARD. That is another kind of bigot. The one raised in New York and moves to Vermont or Idaho.

[Woodstock]

150. I knew you'd blame it all on Howard Dean

In the face of such hatred, it's hard to know what to say. So I won't say anything.

Hate in peace.

[CHIMO]

209. As I Remember

The union of two people in a RC(sic) cermony involves a witness who is the one performing the ceromoney. The marriage is sealed by those who are being married.
There are many witnesses, one doese't have to psss a test.

[CWebster]

18. In some Leftist circles

I have encountered athiests that confessed they had just transferred their early anti-Catholic indoctrination to the more inclusive rejection of all religious faiths. I can't help but think of the priests who practiced liberation theology and were slaughtered in Latin America and the nuns who went to prison for civil disobedience to the Berrigans and all they they accomplished... walking in the true footsteps of Christ.

[chiburb]

19. Bless me father, for I have sinned...

It has been 37 years since my last confession...

Couldn't care less about Catholics (or religions in general), but I'm reminded of Cardinal Bernardin (Chicago):
As a Catholic, he was consistant: No war(nukes specifically), no abortion, and no death penalty.
No waffling, no making excuses for the death penalty while fighting abortion.

I didn't agree with him on abortion, but at least he didn't have the double standards that seem to afflict his flock.

[Dob Bole]

21. I met a gay Catholic

last month from Mississippi. He had been through a hard time, and was joining the monks at the monastery in Conyers. (Monks refrain from sexual activity.)

Anyway, my trip at the Monastery was cool. All the monks were vegetarians, but their food was still good. I've been trying to go veg since.

[Nicholas_J]

29. THe wonderful. kind, fantastic priest

who gave my mother the last rites when she was dying in the hospital was/is gay.

And a better priest and human being you will not find anywhere!

[OrdinaryTa]

46. Fr. Mychal Judge, 9/11 Hero

Fr. Mychal Judge, heroic chaplain of the New York Fire Department, was killed on September 11th while giving last rites to the dying. Fr. Mychal was gay and a recovering alcoholic. Some people feel that these things detract from his heroism or his sanctity, or both. I say they add to them.

[Davis_X_Machina]

179. Father Judge, Zichrono l'brecha... n/t

[EAMcClure]

23. Raised Catholic, now Pagan

The Catholic church, along with the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches, are the only real bastions of ritual mystery for western civilization. Between the eucharist, communion, and the various observations and holy practices... the Catholics have reverence for the sublime mysteries. Most people take reality for granted, at the cost of wisdom.

Catholicism does cultivate wisdom through reverence. I would not reccomend attacking this church as backwards and narrow-minded without first studying its tradition and history. The Catholic church is a firm upholder of the doctrine of miracles, healing, and the ineffable omni-presence of divinity through logos.

However, many criticisms leveled against the institutions history and moral dogma are legitimate and DESERVE to be discussed. The mystification of sexuality, especially. The fact that this institution has sought from its inception to make human sexuality the devil's playground has virtually ensured that the human race is crippled to its foundation.

But, respect the ritual, observe Catholic practices and worldview from a discrete distance, and you will find that the church is a stunningly beauitiful institution.

Eric

[CWebster]

32. Absolutely right

One of the reasons they should've never changed the latin mass. It was the ritual, the sound, the tradition. What the words mean is not important in mysticism.

So often going into a Franciscan Catholic church in Europe was like going home. The dark stillness, the echo, the fluttering candles, the faint scent of incense, the old wooden pews, the shrouded monk.

I still keep a statue of St. Francis in my garden.

It has nothing to do with the politics and corruption of the Church.

[EAMcClure]

38. So many wonderful saints

The reading material produced by many of the saints could last one many lifetimes. I wouldn't mind locking myself in a study and absorbing as much of their material as possible. St. Augustine's "Congessions," and "City of God." The poetry of St. John of the Cross. The prayers of St. Bernard. So much magic, intellect, and sheer devotion. At the very least, regardless of their faith and the doma pitfalls, their words are inspiring and point to what lies behind the veil of day to day existence.

You are right, the sound, the ritual cadence, the symbolism... all of this creates an atmosphere of something wonderful just out of reach, just beyond the corner of sight and sound. I owe much of my spiritual exploration and study to my Catholic upbringing.

I just keep very careful mental notes of why and how the church persecuted women, homosexuals, and ethnic/religious minorities... because those negative evil traits show up in all institutions that have power combined with corruption and poor membership requirements.

Eric

[Rich Hunt]

51. Have you read Sor Juana?

I recommend the poetry of Sor Juana, too!

[EAMcClure]

57. Sobre si es atravimiento

Unfortunately, I have yet to find her in adequate English translation... there is a stiffness to what I have read which is absent from the flow of her Spanish (read I can, comprehend I can not). I am but a penniless scholar. She is actually on my short list, along with Dona Barbara.

If you have any information about a good English translation, please let me know!

Eric

[Rich Hunt]

61. I'll look into it

My Spanish is so-so - I usually get the texts that have English and Spanish side-by-side, so that I can get a deeper appreciation of her poetry. I've got a few books stashed in my garage.

But what a fascinating woman!

[CHIMO]

211. I Too

Enjoy the Gregorian chants. Have some CD's of them but seem to have lost them.
Think that it is a great aid in meditation.

[XanaDUer]

39. Thank you for a beautiful and well-thought-out thread

In Church's history, it widely ignored homosexuality, abortion was not illegal or wrong, and it turned a blind eye towards human fraility.

Most of what people consider the repressive of the Church came as a response to Protestant repression after the reformation. The church's counter-reformation led to them trying to match the protestant church's blow-for-blow, so to speak.
Is the hypocrisy? Yes, in all human institutions, including atheism, of which I am now one.

[Liberator_Rev]

86. Where did you learn your Church history,LibertyChick ?

"Most of what people consider the repressive of the Church came as a response to Protestant repression after the reformation. The church's counter-reformation led to them trying to match the protestant church's blow-for-blow, so to speak."

Here's just ONE example of what REALLY happened in the History of Catholicism:
        (in the early 1200's) When the King of France refused to lead the Crusade, Pope Innocent III made his legate, Arnald-Amalric, the General of the Cistercian (i.e. "Trappist") monks at Citeaux, its commander in chief. . .
        Arnald called on the Catholics in the town of Béziers, an Albigensian stronghold, to hand over the 200 or so known heretics.  If they didn't they would suffer with them.  The townsfolk decided to stand together against these foreigners . . .
        The townsfolk took refuge inside the cathedral and the great churches of St. Jude and St. Mary Magdalene. . .  The command went out from Arnald:  "Kill them all: the Lord will look after his own."
        Behind the locked doors of St. Mary Magdalene's, the clergy tolled the bells, while celebrants vested in black for a requiem.  The churches, places of sanctuary from time immemorial, were crammed.  In that church alone there were 7000 women, children and the elderly.  To the sound of priests chanting mass was added that of axes splitting the timber of the doors.  When the doors gave way, the only noise and church was the Latin of the liturgy and the babble of babies in their mothers' arms.
        The invaders, singing lustily Veni Sancte Spiritus (Come, Holy Spirit) spared no one, not even the babies.  The last to be cut down were two priests in the sanctuary.  One held on high a crucifix, the other the chalice.  With a clang, the chalice hit the stone floor, and Christ's blood mingled with that of the people of Béziers.  It was, said Lea, in his book The Inquisition in the Middle Ages, "a massacre almost without parallel in human history".
        The crusaders then destroyed everything in the town, including the cathedral.  "All that was left of Béziers was a smouldering heap under which all the citizens lay dead."
        "In the cool of the evening, the monk Arnald settled down to write to his superior.  "Today, your Highness, 20,000 citizens were put to the sword, regardless of age or sex." That is unusual.  After a siege, women and children were spared, and especially clergy who had immunity.  Slaughtering babies was bad enough, but it was an unspeakable crime to cut priests down as they celebrated the ritual sacrifice of Calvary.  Blood-lust had taken hold of the Pope's crusade and was never to relax its grip."
        "Pope Innocent was deeply moved by Arnald's letter.  He thanked God for His great mercy.  Never once did he question the legitimacy of a monk slaughtering heretics and the Catholics who harboured them."  It seemed right to defend Christ's truth by methods that led to Christ's crucifixion."
        "It has been reckoned that in the last and most savage persecution under Emperor Diocletian, about 2,000 Christians perished, throughout the empire.  In the first vicious incident of Pope Innocent III's crusade, ten times that number of people were slaughtered.  Not all were Albigensians, by any means.  It comes as a shock to discover that, at a stroke, a pope killed far more Christians than (the pagan emperor) Diocletian."(P. 158 - 160)
Read the whole book Vicars of Christ, by Father Peter De Rosa, or see many excerpts at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist .

[JNelson6563]

126. you could also read just plain

old history to find many an atrocity committed by "Christians". Soon after that event you list the kings of France and England (and other leaders of Christendom) did go on Crusade. It bled the people of their lands dry of their own wealth and they went on to slaughter the infidels in great numbers. I believe it was outside the city of Acre that Richard ordered some 3000 captives beheaded. This took too long so after a while the men just started to cut them down. Saladin returned the favor and had his Christian captives slaughtered.

There is no end of tales attributed to Christianity throughout the ages that are horrific. Seems there are plenty of members of Islam looking to write similar chapters in the history of their religion too.

Ah religion, the great divider.

Julie

[XanaDUer]

41. Thank you for a beautiful and well-thought-out thread

In Church's history, it widely ignored homosexuality, abortion was not illegal or wrong, and it turned a blind eye towards human fraility.

Most of what people consider the repressive of the Church came as a response to Protestant repression after the reformation. The church's counter-reformation led to them trying to match the protestant church's blow-for-blow, so to speak.
Is the hypocrisy? Yes, in all human institutions, including atheism, of which I am now one.

[Ellen Forradalom]

137. Beautifully put

I attend my mother's Ango-Catholic church whenever I have the opportunity, simply for the sheer beauty of the worship.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rich Hunt]

36. I'm an atheist now

...but all of this militant atheism bothers me.

I have learned so much from all religions. I think blaming all evils on religion is missing the point. It's an easy target.

[Leftist78]

45. It bothers me too

There is plenty to complain about when it comes to religion, but I've found that some atheists become so anti-religion that it becomes their religion.

Personally I'm an agnostic. For me, it's the only honest thing to be.

[iverglas]

114. "easy target"

" I think blaming all evils on religion is missing the point. It's an easy target."

Of course, the easiest targets are ... the straw ones.

I dunno, maybe the post to which you responded, which has been deleted, did "blame all evils on religion". I wouldn't necessarily think that this made it non-straw.

[Dob Bole]

37. I deeply respect your intellectual superiority

to the rest of the human race. I have many atheist friends who are not so uptight. Has it not occurred to you that

a)not all people see Christianity as a religion, because in its purest form it is not about rules or making God accept you, but about love and respect.

b)many people choose to follow a lifestyle of love and respect. It is not something that can be forced on someone or "spoonfed" to them.

c)not all people who choose to be religious are flaming retards who have been had by Corporate blah, blah Profitable blah Opiate gnyarr

[Rich Hunt]

44. there are atheist Unitarians

I've been to the Unitarian church, and seriously thought of joining, because there are a lot of atheists in it who believe in the study of and respect for religion.

I'm a very religious atheist, if that makes sense.

:)

[Rich Hunt]

31. St. Francis is my man

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Francis/

My admiration of St. Francis has a lot to do with the sort of person I am today.

[Woodstock]

152. What a neat site! :-)

Thanks :)

[roughsatori]

161. thanks for that link

I just saved it as a favorite for reading more later.

[OrdinaryTa]

34. St. Ignatius Loyola

Today, July 31st, the Jesuits celebrate their founder, St. Ignatius Loyola. He was a Spanish nobleman who came up with the idea of discussing religion politely instead of putting heretics to death. The strong Jesuit commitment to higher education comes from Ignatius' belief that Catholics ought to be able to hold their own in philosophical discussions.

You don't have to be Catholic to like the Jesuits. Most Jesuits are quite liberal to the point where they are openly mistrusted by conservative Catholics. The Ignatian expression in spiritu lenitatis refers to the Jesuit commitment to remaining civil and polite even though they uphold the formal teachings of the Church. The Jesuits have upheld human rights in places like El Salvador, where right wing thugs murdered six of them.

My favorite Jesuits include philosopher Teilhard de Chardin, poet Gerard Manley Hopkings, and peace activist Daniel Berrigan. But how shall we educate men to goodness, to a sense of one another, to a love of truth? And more urgently, how shall we do this in a bad time?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

42. Most of the Jesuits I've met...

are very cool. They tend to be the most approachable and broadminded of the orders. I knew more than a few Jeusits who could party with the best of'em. :)

[Maeve]

43. This thread makes me so sad

First, that it should ever be seen as needed--liberals are supposed to respect other beliefs. Second, that it should bring out so much bile, some from people whose opinions I otherwise value.

I am Catholic. I will probably always be Catholic, altho on my own terms--I don't accept that the Vatican or Vatican spokesmen always speak for the Church that has spanned @ 2000 years. The Church is far bigger than that little piece of Roman thought. I have known many good, loving, kind and saintly Catholics in my life, some of them gay. And I mourn that the good and the innocent are trashed with the venal and the evil.

[noonwitch]

47. Catholicism is a fair target, catholics as people are not

My mom and sister, die hard liberals like me, are always going off about catholics. I tell them that it's okay to have a problem with the church and its teachings, but it's not fair to have one with catholic people.

[dwckabal]

48. I was always taught

that if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and acts like a duck, call it a duck. If you don't follow the teachings of your particular religion, Catholic or otherwise, why do you you call yourself Catholic (or Methodist, Buddhist, or whatever)? The Catholic religion is founded upon the principle that the Pope is God's spokesman on Earth--he is infallible. The Bible is the literal word of God--no discussion is possible. If you don't believe those things, then you can't really call yourself Catholic. Once people understand that, they can free themselves from the shackles placed on them from childhood, and maybe, just maybe, humanity can grow and reach its true potential.

And I'm not singling out Catholicism here, the same can be said for any institutionalized religion.

[bloom]

53. and I always figured...

that there are groups - whether they be religions or political parties, or who knows what and that NO TWO PEOPLE in those groups are going to think exactly the same about anything. And when people understand THAT - " they can free themselves from the shackles placed on them from childhood, and maybe, just maybe, humanity can grow and reach its true potential."

[dwckabal]

196. the problem is

That religious dogma is not up for questioning. Why else do you think there are so many different sects of Christianity? They can't all be "right". My original point was, if you don't agree with the spiritual teachings of a particular religion, get out--but don't keep calling yourself something that you are not. By definition, you can't be Catholic and still use birth control--you are breaking the "law" of that religion. You are thinking for yourself, which is a good thing, but still clinging to the outdated concept of organized religion.

[CHIMO]

214. God

Never told me that.
It becomes a moral issue when one gets down to it.
Would like to know where you found the relationship between birth control and RC(sic) membership.

[ButterflyBlood]

216. it's pretty simple

the RCC says you can't use birth control, so if you are you're violating their rules, and really have no reason to call yourself a Catholic. My mom used birth control, so I don't see what reason she has. I use birth control and do plenty of things the RCC prohibits, so I dropped it. Not too hard.

so since God never told you that it was wrong to use birth control, it comes down to who you're following, God or the RCC. And if you're going to be a member of the RCC, it has to be the RCC. Because it says if you aren't following it, then you aren't following God. And if you don't believe that, then I don't see why the hell you're in it.

[Dob Bole]

54. None of those things are Catholic

Catholicism is actually based on the fact that God loves humans and sent his son to sacrifice himself for them. There were Catholics before there were popes (even if you consider Peter to be a pope figure, that's still true.)

Your understanding that Catholicism is based on the infallibility of the Pope and the Bible is false. Catholics do not worship the Bible either. They use it as a guide but use other sources as well.

[dwckabal]

197. The word "catholic"

simply means "univeral" or "general". This implies that the Catholic Church is the same everywhere. Doing a Google search for "tenets of catholic church" I fond this little ditty:

The Roman Catholic Church is one body, whose members are all united together in one and the same faith, in being all of the same communion, and governed by one and the same supreme authority. This is the more to be remarked when we consider, that, though those of her communion be exceeding numerous, and spread throughout the whole known world, and differ from one another almost in every thing else, in their country, in their language, in their customs, in their government, and in their worldly interests, yet they are all most perfectly united in religion; they every where believe the same divine truths, profess the same faith, teach the same doctrine, preach the same gospel; so that, wherever any one of that Church goes, throughout the whole world, he always finds himself at home, with those of that communion, as to religion.

If you don't agree with that statement, how can you say you are a Catholic?

Christianity is based on the belief that God loves humans and sent Jesus to die for their sins. There are no facts to be found that support your statement, other than the Bible, which is basically a big book of Hebrew myths and admonations on how to live. Again, almost every website I could find relating to the Catholic religion state as the very core of the religion the universal belief in the literal meaning of the Bible and the belief that the Pope has a direct line to Jesus Christ.

[OrdinaryTa]

58. Quack Like a Duck

The Church is more liberal than you think. The Pope isn't the all-powerful figure that people say he is; he's just the head. He can huff and puff about obedience to Church teaching, but Catholics go ahead and ignore him. The most striking example of this is the response to Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae which held that birth control is sinful. Catholics simply ignored this, and not just liberal Catholics. Everyone. Conservative Catholics are aware that John Paul II opposes capital punishment and denounced the war on Iraq. They went right ahead and ignored him.

Lots of Catholics continue to disagree with absolute, flat-out, believe-it-or-else dogma. But Jesus taught that faith is a private thing between each person and God. If you disagree with people who call themselves Catholic when you think they shouldn't, you are really disagreeing with Jesus.

[Liberator_Rev]

80. The Head of your Church, OrdinaryTa & NickJ, says U R WRONG !

Pope John Paul II message to "Liberal" Catholics   ( 16 September 1987 ) :"It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today, do not adhere to the teaching of the Church on a number of questions; notably, sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage, some are reported as not accepting the Church’s clear position on abortion. It has also been noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective to their adherence to the Church’s moral teaching. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a "good Catholic" and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the Bishops of the United States and elsewhere."See much MORE at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist

[Rich Hunt]

81. study your history, Rev

For many people, Catholicism is more about spirituality and the "popular church" than it is about the hierarchy.

There are many saints who were originally considered heretics by the hierarchy.

If you were really so tolerant, you would respect what IS important about Catholic traditions to those who practice them.

Instead, you seem to me to be just another evangelist.

Go ban some alcohol or something. I WON'T assimilate!

[Liberator_Rev]

89. So YOU, Dymaxia, define Catholicism !

You speak for ONE out of a billion Catholics.
Pope John Paul II speaks for a billion Catholics.

[Rich Hunt]

93. I am NOT a Catholic

It's funny how the anti-Catholics call everyone who defends Catholicism a Catholic.

It's like I said - the traditions are much more fluid and complex than can be gleaned from focusing on the hierarchy.

I'm not going to post centuries of art, philosophy and poetry to this thread, not to mention the radical Catholic social traditions.

[CHIMO]

217. Back to Basics

The great one in Rome spaeks on matters of dogma when the Bishops have agreed.
Who gave you the authority to set definitions?

[Dob Bole]

102. Thought Christ was head of the church...

but I must be splitting hairs. Christ? Pope? There is obviously no difference.

[DemBones DemBones]

138. You are correct, Christ is the head of the Church.

Liberator_Rev forgets what he once knew when he gets "revved" up on an anti-Catholic rant.

[ButterflyBlood]

153. but the Pope is his representative

and thus is infallible, and anything he says you must follow. that's how I understood it from my upbringing.

[CHIMO]

218. Try and Rationalize Things

Think that you would agree that he can't make the stock market go up or down.
So somehow this infalibility has to have some bounds.
Well what are the bounds?
It is hard to find one's way out of a maze when it has been pushed at one from a young age.
The result of seeking the answer puts the onus back on the individual.
All I can say is if one is satisfied with their conscience then keep on following it and if one wants to learn more then keep on searching(a library would be a good place to start).

[dwckabal]

199. but Christ is dead

and hasn't actually physically spoken to anyone in over 2000 years. Thus the necessity of the Pope, Christ's spokesperson on Earth.

[CHIMO]

215. So

One has to follow their conscience according to the RC(sic) religion.
The great one in Rome is the administrator. He/(maybe she in the future) speaks on the matters of dogma when the bishops agree. Haven't seen any of those agreements lately.
Where are you getting your data?

[dwckabal]

198. That is my point

If you disagree with the tenets of a religion, then you can't really claim to be a memember of that religion, plain and simple (and I don't know why you would want to be part of a group whose beliefs you don't share).

Jesus also never said anything about churches, or Popes, or excommunication, or purgatory either. So why is all of that part of the Catholic religion?

If faith is a private thing between each person and God, why do we even need churches?

[Cheswick2.0]

230. this is my point

You have no reason to care. Why do you care what others believe?
I was raised by an atheist, never went to religious education and still as an adult decided that I wanted chruch in my life.

I don't believe that Christ is dead. I also don't agree with everything my family believes, yet I am a member of my family. When I was younger I was a member of the girl scouts and I didn't believe every tenent of that organization either. :shrug:

[dwckabal]

241. I simply posed a question

and all I got back was "stop misrepresenting the Catholic religion".

Why do I care? I guess I really don't. But I do like to understand other people, their beliefs, and what drives them to act on their beliefs.

And I am fascinated that people who disavow 30%, 40%, 50% or more of a religion's BASIC tenets still call themselves members of that religion.

Why?

Is it a function of guilt, or fear? I don't know. And I doubt those people do, either.

The great thing about family is that you CAN disagree with them, and remain part of the family.

If you didn't agree with what the Girl Scouts were about, why did you join? Peer pressure? Your answer may open the door for why people join churches (assuming it wasn't forced on them at an early age...)

[Rich Hunt]

59. you're wrong

I think what annoys people so much is that the anti-Catholics don't bother to practice the basic cultural sensitivity with regard to the Church that any liberal ought to be familiar with by now. That is, you should maybe attempt to learn something about a culture (and Catholicism is as much cultural as it is religious) before criticizing it. It's just so arrogant to assume you know more about Catholic traditions than those who were raised in them.

1) The pope is only "infallible" when he speaks "ex cathedra", and there is a very strict standard for this

2) The Catholic church is not at all fundamentalist, so the Bible is in no way the literal word of God

I think you owe Catholics an apology for misrepresenting their faith.

[dwckabal]

202. So you are telling me

that there are no Catholics in the world who believe what I said? Funny, just about every website I'be been to, every religion class I've ever taken, every book I've read, basically says the same thing: the Bible is the literal word of God, and the Pope is the voice of the Church.

I think that it is particularly arrogant of you to assume that I know nothing about the Catholic faith. I have friends who are Catholic. I ask them these same questions. The answers I was given are what I have stated here. Are you telling me that they are wrong? Do you speak for millions of Catholics in the world? Now who is the arrogant one?

By the way, I am not particularly anti-Catholic, I am anti-religion. I am not misrepresenting the Catholic faith. I just made a statement that if you don't believe the tenets of a religion, you shouldn't call yourself a member of that religion.

[Rich Hunt]

221. sorry, but you are wrong

I went to Catholic school, where we were explicitly told that the bible is not the literal word of God. Sorry, you are very WRONG.

OOooo...you took the time to go to a website - I'm impressed. That really holds up well next to my 12 years of Catholic education.

"The Pope is the voice of the Church" - I can't even respond to this one, because it is so vague. It doesn't mean anything. Please be more specific next time.

PLEASE. I'm guessing there are a lot of mistranslations between you and your Catholic friends.

I can't imagine commenting on theological matters for a religion I was not raised in.

[dwckabal]

239. Your bitter sarcasm wounds me

But again, you've missed the point. You say that I am wrong...but some Catholics obviously believe it, unless you are calling me and my friends liars. You say you were TOLD that the Bible is not the literal word of God. Why did you have to be told that? Couldn't figure it out for yourself?

And yes, I can go to websites--like NewAdvent.org, which contains the online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Catholic Encyclopedia, as its name implies, proposes to give its readers full and authoritative information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine. What the Church teaches and has taught; what she has done and is still doing for the highest welfare of mankind; her methods, past and present; her struggles, her triumphs, and the achievements of her members, not only for her own immediate benefit, but for the broadening and deepening of all true science, literature and art -- all come within the scope of the Catholic Encyclopedia."

I won't go into the editors and authors of said work; suffice to say it should meet your approval for knowledge and integrity. For more information, you yourself can visit this website at http://www.newadvent.org. On the issue of the Pope being the voice of the church, I'll leave that one for you to look up yourself--unless you are afraid you might learn something.

As for the Bible being the literal word of God, I'll defer to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Bible, as the inspired recorded of revelation, contains the word of God; that is, it contains those revealed truths which the Holy Ghost wishes to be transmitted in writing. However, all revealed truths are not contained in the Bible (see TRADITION); neither is every truth in the Bible revealed, if by revelation is meant the manifestation of hidden truths which could not other be known. Much of the Scripture came to its writers through the channels of ordinary knowledge, but its sacred character and Divine authority are not limited to those parts which contain revelation strictly so termed. The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church". The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.

Hmmm, looks like you were told wrong (unless, of course, you're going to now tell me that the Catholic Encyclopedia is full of lies).

[Rich Hunt]

243. "inspired" and "literal" are not the same thing

How dare you insult me.

I couldn't figure it out for myself??

I was a child when we were taught Catholic theology. Kids needed to learn that their church rejected the fundamentalism that was becoming more popular among other denominations in the eighties.

It is the "inspired" word of God, not the "literal" one.

How on earth did some people on this board get so arrogant that they feel qualified to lecture on a culture they weren't raised in?

THAT is illiberal.

Christ, I am REALLY fed up with finding one example of bigotry and arrogance on this board (not just directed at Catholics).

Co-existing with different cultures requires that you not speak for a culture. It's called "humility". No wonder Americans are viewed throughout the world as arrogant.

You still haven't explained to me how your five-minute web search stacks up with my twelve years of Catholic education. We were told over, and over, and over that the Bible was not the literal word of God. For one thing, the book of Genesis blatantly contradicts itself.

[dwckabal]

244. OK, let me try one more time

First of all, I was not trying to insult you, but your posts keep screaming of rote obedience to what you were "taught" in your 12 years of Catholic school education.

My posts are not meant to denigrate anyone's culture, religion or education. What I am trying to say here, which you have such a hard time comprehending, is that while you claim to have had a Catholic education, what you were taught does not jibe with "official" Roman Catholic doctrine.

Now, you can nitpick definitions all day, but sometimes it takes an outsider's viewpoint to gain a better understanding of something; you know, the whole forest for the trees thing. Just because I didn't go to a Catholic school, or belong to the Catholic church, doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to be curious about said religion, to the point where I can read the official Vatican stance on any number of issues and interpret them for myself. All I have done here is explain how I interpret these official church writings. You seem to have taken this as arrogance and bigotry simply because my understanding on church teachings doesn't agree with what you were taught.

My web search may not stack up chronologically with your schooling, but I cut out the middleman (or woman) and went straight to the source. Unless you do not consider the Catholic Encyclopedia a valid source of information, it's hard to find any vagueness in the following passage:

The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God...The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. To take the Bible literally is a slippery slope indeed, one that requires a person to suspend all forms of logic. Not only Genesis, with it's two different accounts of creation, but numerous other books of the Bible contradict themselves (which I am sure you are aware).

Let's put this in a different frame.

As a non-Catholic, I am nevertheless interested in the Catholic religion, and so I do some research. This research involves asking practicing Catholics about their religion, reading various scholarly tomes on the subject, and yes, going on the internet. Along the way I am bound to get conflicting information, but over time, a coherent picture should emerge regarding the official stance of the Catholic church.

You and I happen to meet in line at the DMV. We talk, and the conversation turns to schooling, when you mention you went to a Catholic school for 12 years, but you are no longer a practicing Catholic. I say, "Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to understand how they can say that what's written in the Bible is literally true."

"That's not what I was taught in school!"

"Really? Almost everything I've ever come across says that is the official position of the Catholic church."

Now, do you go off and call me arrogant, and how dare I presume to claim to know anything about a religion I wasn't raised in? That would be quite rude. What would you say?

Based on everything I have heard, read, been taught and been told, your position is not the "official" stance of the Roman Catholic Church. So, while you may have been taught the the Bible is not the literal word of God, this teaching is apparently outside the official teaching of the Church. I'm sorry this upsets you so much (and I am not being facetious here). But unless you can show me some official Church stance on the issue, I'd have to say that your school taught doctrine that was at odds with official Church teachings.

[ButterflyBlood]

63. I kind of agree

if you don't agree with the church on abortion, homosexuality, ect. then get out. I don't agree, so I left. The church has a right to pass it's rules, and if you don't like them, don't call yourself Catholic. It's like saying "I'm in the KKK but I'm not racist, I just disagree with them on that part." There's no reason to be in the KKK if you disagree with their hate doctrine, and there's no reason to be in the RCC if you disagree with its hate doctrine. I don't see any reason for a liberal to be in such a homophobic, sexist institution.

[dwckabal]

203. Thanks

So far, I think you are the only one who got my point.

[Maeve]

65. dupe--deleted by author

dupe

[Maeve]

66. dupe message deleted by author

blasted connection!

[Maeve]

67. Inaccurate data, I'm afraid

"The Catholic religion is founded upon the principle that the Pope is God's spokesman on Earth--he is infallible. The Bible is the literal word of God--no discussion is possible. If you don't believe those things, then you can't really call yourself Catholic."

First, the inerrancy of the Pope was not declared until 1870 and has been highly qualified. It's not a founding principle in any way, shape or form. Second, the literalist view was disputed by theologians as far back as St Augustine (who did not beleive the Genesis creation story to be literal fact, btw)

You can be a Democrat without accepting 100% of the platform. Same is true with faiths.

[dwckabal]

204. Your analogy is incorrect

religion=faith=no compromise
politics=compromise

You said:
First, the inerrancy of the Pope was not declared until 1870 and has been highly qualified. It's not a founding principle in any way, shape or form.

I would point you to:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

excerpt:
One need not expect to find in the early centuries a formal and explicit recognition throughout the Church either of the primacy or of the infallibility of the pope in the terms in which these doctrines are defined by the Vatican Council. But the fact cannot be denied that from the beginning there was a widespread acknowledgment by other churches of some kind of supreme authority in the Roman pontiff in regard not only to disciplinary but also to doctrinal affairs...And what is still more important, is the explicit recognition in formal terms, by councils which are admitted to be ecumenical, of the finality, and by implication the infallibility of papal teaching.

* Thus the Fathers of Ephesus (431) declare that they "are compelled" to condemn the heresy of Nestorius "by the sacred canons and by the letter of our holy father and co-minister, Celestine the Bishop of Rome."
* Twenty years later (451) the Fathers of Chalcedon, after hearing Leo's letter read, make themselves responsible for the statement: "so do we all believe . . . Peter has spoken through Leo."
* More than two centuries later, at the Third Council of Constantinople (680-681), the same formula is repeated: "Peter has spoken through Agatho."
* After the lapse of still two other centuries, and shortly before the Photian schism, the profession of faith drawn up by Pope Hormisdas was accepted by the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870), and in this profession, it is stated that, by virtue of Christ's promise: "Thou art Peter, etc."; "the Catholic religion is preserved inviolable in the Apostolic See."
* Finally the reunion Council of Florence (1438-1445), repeating what had been substantially contained in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus approved by the Second Council of Lyons (1274), defined "that the holy Apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world; and that the Roman pontiff himself is the successor of the blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians, and that to him in blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling and governing the universal Church was given by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this is also recognized in the acts of the ecumenical council and in the sacred canons (quemadmodum etiam . . . continetur.

Thus it is clear that the Vatican Council introduced no new doctrine when it defined the infallibility of the pope, but merely re-asserted what had been implicitly admitted and acted upon from the beginning and had even been explicitly proclaimed and in equivalent terms by more than one of the early ecumenical councils. Until the Photian Schism in the East and the Gallican movement in the West there was no formal denial of papal supremacy, or of papal infallibility as an adjunct of supreme doctrinal authority, while the instances of their formal acknowledgment that have been referred to in the early centuries are but a few out of the multitude that might be quoted.

Inaccurate--I think not.

[ArkDem]

69. I'm Catholic. Joined 3 years ago.

I've been taught that the bible is open to intellectual interpretation and the Pope (like all priests) is human but devinely inspired. Methinks you have some bad information.

[dwckabal]

205. Please

see above.

[CHIMO]

213. Bullshit

The Pope speaks for the church on religious matters when all the bishops agree!
Plain and simple.
Forget what you were taught.

The RC(sic) religion accepts the New Testament and The Old Testament of which many entries are parables.
Study a bit and be free.

[Cassandra]

60. There are threads...

that start out bashing Israeli policies (Likud, specifically) and quickly descend into very nasty comments against Jews...
"liberals are supposed to respect other beliefs. Second, that it should bring out so much bile, some from people whose opinions I otherwise value."

There have been comments dripping with bile about Jewish laws that are not understood, Jewish concerns that are deemed trivial. All it would take is someone just asking for an explanation of something they don't understand, rather than assuming they know and assuming it's evil.

That said, what I don't understand about some accusations of Catholic bashing is they are very likely to be aimed at Catholics who have rocked the boat (with the media doing the reporting). Aren't Catholics allowed to complain about abuse in their own Church?

[CHIMO]

212. Learn

Try and obtain readings of philosophy from the Jesuits.
Granted it may be hard to start out with theology but maybe look for something in philosophy.
You may be surprised at how simple it is.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Half the reason the Catholic church's transgressions are in the news

while the SAME transgressions of other religions (child abuse, adultery etc) are going unnoticed is because the Bushies are paying back the Jesuits for their interference in Latin America.

[EAMcClure]

62. Also, pay attention to Bush connection to Rev. Moon

The Bush family has an intimate business/social connection to the Universalist church and its leader/founder/maniac Reverend Sun Myung Moon.

Not only do the Catholics get in the way of U.S. historical abuse of the Monroe doctrine to push colonial repression on South/Latin America, but this is compounded by the Bush family antipathy towards Catholicism in general (outside P-2 and Opus Dei, of course).

Eric

[bloom]

70. the Unification Church and Unitarian Universalists are two different thing

the Unification Church (moonies - do a google) and Unitarian Universalists are two different things.

[LeftHander]

79. Ack! UUs are not moonies!

But you can be one if you want too...

[EAMcClure]

106. The Unification Church is also called "Universal Unification"

If you think that I mean Unitarian when I said Universalist, that says more about you than me. I will refrain from that word in the future. I did not know the Unitarians had claimed it as their own.

Eric

[ElsewheresDaughter]

134. Opus Dei = Hannity, Keyes, O Rielly, Pryor, Thomas, Scalia, Santorum(ms)

to name but a few :scared:

[EAMcClure]

171. Don't forget Curt Hanson, FBI double agent

The guy who sold all sorts of secrets to god knows who.

China, P-2, Mossad... he really screwed the U.S. over, because he believes that he is one of the initiators of armageddon. Perhaps... he is.

Eric

[ElsewheresDaughter]

173. eric oh yeah i forgot about him ....speaking of cults ...inhoOpus Dei

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberator_Rev]

174. Did you forgot David Kuresh, nothingshocksmeanymore ?

Nothing...,
What you were asked for was proof of your claim that
"Half the reason the Catholic church's transgressions are in the news
while the SAME transgressions of other religions (child abuse, adultery etc) are going unnoticed." (You yourself emphasized "SAME")

What you gave me was evidence that there was SOME wrongdoing reported in a very FEW groups, and these groups just happen to be extremely autocratic and secretive, like the Roman Catholic Church. I'm would expect to find similar behavior in other autocratic and secretive religious groups.

Now if you can give me evidence that MAINSTREAM Judeo-Christian Denominations have the SAME problems as the Catholic Church but are getting a free ride (for whatever reason), I swear on the Bible or whatever else you like, to give you your apology.

In the meantime, I believe that one of the great reforming saints of the Catholic Church, Bernard of Clairvaux, was right when in the year 1135 he repuded the Albigensian claim that marriage is sordid, with the following warning: "Take from the Church an honourable marriage and an immaculate marriage bed, and do you not fill it with concubinage, incest, homosexuality and every kind of uncleanness?"

I'm not "pushing my web site down anyone's throat" when I simply make it convenient for ANYONE WHO WANTS TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT MY ARGUMENTS" to get it. I can't force anybody to even click on a message I have posted, for God's sake. For those who want to know how true it is that the Catholic Church has had a huge problem with clerical celibacy FOR CENTURIES, they can either go out and get books on the subject, or get a quick overview by checking out http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist .

P.S. If you go off on another personal attack, I'm going to alert you again, if need be, until you can observe DU's rules of civil discourse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

187. Oh I see..change the terms of the debate when you are proved inaccurate

Then hit the alert because I said BLOVIATING FINGERTIPS. Please tell me what is so civil about you attacking Catholics which you have done all throughout this thread in spite of the fact that you have been requested not to. You are attacking them personally and pretending you aren't.

As I said, I could have posted links all day. There are examples in all denominations.

BTW, not you personally, but I have read your web site. It is my opinion it is PURE SHIT!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

191. Trying this once again while suppressing the bulk of my sarcasm

http://www.geocities.com/robbi01/child-abuse.html

Clamping down on BAD ONES
Parents and Religions

© 1998 Times Publishing Company
St. Petersburg Times
St. Petersburg Florida
3 Oct 1998
Saturday
SECTION: METRO & STATE; Pg. 1B
LENGTH: 754 words
HEADLINE: Abuse laws still vague when faith is involved
BYLINE: JEAN HELLER

Janet Reno

BODY:
The recent death of a boy, whose parents don't believe in modern medicine, has child advocates asking whether the law addresses the issue properly.
After Amy Hermanson, 7, died at her home in Sarasota, a victim of diabetes, her parents were convicted of child abuse and third- degree murder. They knew Amy was sick but said that their Christian Science faith kept them from seeking medical attention for her.

The conviction in the 1986 case was overturned in 1992 by the Florida Supreme Court. The court criticized the state's child abuse statutes, calling them so incomprehensible that no reasonably intelligent person could tell when his actions regarding his children cross the line into criminal behavior.

Today, six years after the Hermanson ruling, and two years after the court rendered the same judgment in another case, the old statutory language remains.

The impact, experts say, is chilling: Making a case against a parent - even an abusive parent - whose child dies for lack of medical attention is nearly impossible if the parent can show ties to a religion, even a tiny circle of like-minded friends, that disdains modern medicine.

http://www.silentlambs.org/education/jwjustice.cfm?FACTNet

Jehovah’s Witnesses Child Molestation
Victims Seek Justice

August 8, 2001

Victims of child molestation have served a lawsuit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the corporate entity that controls the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. The law firm of Reinhardt and Anderson, in Saint Paul, Minnesota, is filing the first of several lawsuits in behalf of victims who have been injured by the Watchtower's policy of ignoring reported child sexual abuse.

The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is a closed society that requires its members to turn inward to the organization with any problems, rather than seek outside help. This practice conflicts with laws requiring the reporting of suspected child abuse. Victims' attorney Jeff Anderson states: "Child sexual abuse is not tolerated anywhere else. With the onset of the laws protecting children such as neighborhood notification laws and mandatory reporting statutes, the days when child molesters enjoyed a cloak of silence are past, except within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. This church seems to think they are above the law the rules do not apply to them. This case is simply about making Jehovah's Witnesses understand they have the same rules as everyone else when it comes to protecting our children."

Jehovah's Witnesses are accused of creating an organizational policy that, in the opinion of victims, has shielded child molesters, while continuing to harm victims. It is alleged that when a victim comes to the church elders to report child sexual abuse by a church member, Watchtower has instructed the elders to require the victim to present proof of the sexual abuse before the victim is to be believed. According to church policy, the proof can include two eyewitnesses to each act of abuse. Failure to present such proof can result in the victim being ostracized and shunned by elders and the congregation for false accusations against a member.

Anderson states: "The very nature of child sexual abuse is that it rarely happens in the presence of others. Child victims of sexual abuse are especially traumatized as the perpetrators often threaten them into silence. Jehovah's Witnesses policy is no different. The victims do what they are supposed to do, go to the church, and the church turns against them." Victims claim that elders often do nothing to prevent known child molesters from having contact with children, including requiring all church members to solicit Watchtower literature on the doorsteps of unsuspecting residents.

Jehovah's Witnesses accused of
building 'paedophile paradise'

http://www.sundayherald.com/26260

By Torcuil Crichton
Sunday Herald

Scottish branch of world church alleged to have sheltered abusers and kept information from police

The Jehovah's Witnesses Church in Scotland stands accused of sheltering child abusers and keeping secret files of known paedophiles within the organisation which it refuses to share with police.
After a successful prosecution over child abuse within a Jehovah's Witnesses family in Ayrshire, Scottish police are understood to be preparing to bring a further case to court in the northeast.

The Jehovah's Witnesses church, which has six million members around the world, has been convulsed by revelations that its elders have protected sex offenders, failed to report accusations to the police and even punished children and families making accusations.

The Watch Tower, the church's worldwide head quarters in Brooklyn, is struggling to regain its battered authority after a string of child abuse cases stretching from the US to Scotland. An investigation by the BBC's Panorama programme has discovered that the Watch Tower Society keeps a worldwide database of members accused of child abuse. The list, which is claimed to contain more than 20,000 names, is based on details held by each Jehovah's Witnesses congregation and many of the names on that list have never been reported to the police.

Allegations of child abuse within the church first emerged in Scotland in the quiet seaside town of Stevenson in Ayrshire when 19-year-old Alison Cousins went to the police after being branded a liar by church elders to whom she had turned for help.

http://www.silentlambs.org/education/jwaccused.cfm?FACTNet
Child Abuse Cover-Up Costs Mormon Church $3 Million




Church Continues to Deny Responsibility Despite Ten Prior Warnings to Church
Officials and 1983 Excommunication of Priest for Molesting Boys

At Least 20 Other Victims Have Been Identified

PORTLAND, Ore., Sept. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is being issued by
the Law Firm of David Slader:

The Mormon Church covered up its knowledge of a High Priest's sexual
molestation of young boys for more than a decade according to a Portland,
Oregon lawsuit that the church paid $3,000,000.00 to settle. The charges were
brought by one of the priest's victims, Jeremiah Scott.
Today, Scott's mother made a statement describing the Mormon Church as
a, "sanctuary for pedophiles. The church is so concerned about its public
image," Sandra Scott charged, "that it hide the truth from me that it had
recycled a known pedophile into a position of authority in the church where he
had unlimited access to young children." Scott's legal team hailed the
settlement as, "the first big step for one victim in the long struggle to
expose the Mormon Church's epidemic pattern of providing a safe and secret
haven for child molesters."
Scott is one of 21 victims of High Priest Franklin Curtis who abused boys
in Portland, Oregon, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and
Sheridan, Wyoming. Curtis, who was convicted of molesting Scott, has since
died.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-05-2001/0001566613&EDATE=


Pentecostal Cult
with Aid of System
Promotes Child Sexual Abuse
This is My Story of Alleged Abuse by a Pentecostal Cult and Abuse by a Government Allegedly that Promotes Child Sexual Abuse and Satanism

As of 6-98, DHS has proven by their alleged incompetencies, these websites to be true. They are the creators of MPD/DID in our children.
This page allegedly happened/happens....

Most recently the events that have occurred is that I was attacked by a deputy after reports were made about a 10 year old boy having been caught attempting intercourse with his 6 year old sister, in McClain County. Instead of doing something with the children, I was blamed as having reported and attacked by (what I believe now to be an alleged) Dare Program pedophile who also is involved in drug dealing(a 30 year old guy told me the deputy was one of his perpetrators, an 18 year old told me this deputy dealt drug to him before he got off drugs. These disclosures were made in 1-98, the deputy attacked me 8-97, and attempted to attack me at court 10-97. My younger daughter, age 19 now, is pregnant by the 10 year old's 20 year old brother, she would not have known these people had not a crooked judge illegally removed a protective order I had against these satanist.

http://religiousfrauds.50megs.com/pentecostal/pentecostalpedofile3.html?FACTNet

BAPTIST IS THAT MAINSTREAM ENOUGH FOR YA???
PROBE OF ABUSE CHARGES AT "BIBLE DISCIPLINE" HOME LEADS TO BUSH, RAISES QUESTIONS OF FAITH-STATE PARTNERSHIP


Web Posted: April 12, 2000
police investigation into a Corpus Christi, Texas area Baptist group has uncovered allegations of child abuse, and a curious relationship with Texas Gov. George W. Bush. The incident also involves questions about Bush's call for a "faith partnership" between religious groups and government to administer social welfare services, and the history of a controversial evangelist -- Lester Roloff -- who locked horns with Texas state authorities over his operation of numerous "Bible discipline" homes for youngsters, alcoholics and drug addicts.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/texas2.htm

Former Baptist missionary jailed over Philippines child sex abuse
May 23 2003





NSW: Gillard

SYDNEY, May 23 AAP - A former Baptist church missionary has been jailed for eight years for sexually abusing young boys during visits to the Philippines.

David John Gillard, 57, was voluntarily deported to Australia in 2001 after local authorities caught him interfering with young boys at camps for disadvantaged children.

He pleaded guilty to 12 counts of indecency relating to four boys during four visits to the Philippines from May 1999 to July 2001.

During sentencing submissions in the NSW District Court today
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585686284.html

Idaho Falls, ID. An area pastor is charged with inappropriately touching a teenage boy. Idaho Falls police charged a long-time religious leader with five counts of lewd conduct with a minor. 46-year-old Steven Michael Sheridan, the former pastor of St. Paul's United Methodist Church has been arrested-- this after police recorded two recent phone conversations between the victim and Sheridan. Sheridan was the pastor of St. Paul's United Methodist Church five years ago when the alleged crimes occurred. Since then, he's been pastor of another church. The victim who was 13 at the time, and is now 18, said Sheridan was like a mentor. They took trips together, and during those trips, Sheridan touched him sexually. One time, the pastor allegedly touched the boys genitals saying he was checking for cancer. (KPVI, Dec. 6, 2002)
AREA PASTOR CHARGED WITH INAPPROPRIATELY TOUCHING A TEENAGE BOY
Former Pastor Sex Abuse Case Moves Forward

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

MUSKOGEE, OK. A part-time minister for two United Methodist churches was charged Thursday on accusations that he raped a teenage girl while the two were on their way to church functions. Woodroe Wilson admitted to fathering the girl's 8-month-old child, authorities said. (Tulsa World, 08/16/2002)
Minister charged with rape of teen

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Arraignment for The Rev. Gary Carsonhull, a Methodist minister charged with 18 felony counts of child molestation, will be at 1:30 p.m. today in Long Beach Dept. D, the District Attorney’s office announced. The 57-year-old minister is charged in case No. NA052740. (Long Beach, CA. May 24, 2002)
Methodist Minister Charged with criminal child molestation
Methodist Minister Charged with 18 counts
Long Beach Report

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LAWRENCE, KS. A Tonganoxie church youth group leader has pleaded guilty to charges of molesting four teen-age boys who were members of his church. Daniel Walter Peterson, 33, of Lawrence, was a youth group leader at the Tonganoxie United Methodist Church. He pleaded guilty Friday in Douglas County District Court to committing criminal sodomy and three counts of indecent liberties with a child. Authorities said the boys were from 13 to 15 years old at the time of the incidents, which occurred between 1997 and 2000. (Salina Journal, April 5, 2001)
Youth leader faces molestation charge
http://www.saljournal.com/stories/041501/new_breefs.html

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


FONTANA, CA- A former youth director of a Methodist church has been charged with 10 felony counts of child molestation.

Rodney S. Callahan of Rancho Cucamonga was arrested at his home by sheriff’s deputies. The Sheriff’s Department investigation alleges that Callahan sodomized a female relative who is a minor.

The girl told her parents only recently that she was molested by Callahan from Sept. 1998 to Aug. 1999, reports said.

“Generally, with family molestation cases such as this, the victims don’t disclose it to their family because they love them, they don’t want to tear the family apart,” the sheriff’s spokesperson said, adding that authorities are concerned there might be other victims, because Callahan was a youth director of an AME church.

No one from the church was available for comment. It has been closed for more than a month due to a fire. LA Times 6/16/2000

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.reformation.com/CSA/methodistabuse.html

CIVIL SUIT: 11-YEAR-OLD MOLESTED. A family in Dare County, North Carouna is suing Methodist minister Carl M. Eller for abusing their daughter, 11, as well as the North Carolina Conference of the United Methodist Church, a bishop and a reverend for knowing of his history of sexual misconduct but doing nothing about it. The family says she was molested when her father, a carpenter, was installing cabinets in the parsonage. Eller pleaded no contest to a charge of criminal assault on a female. However, the family said that in 1987 Eller had molested or made lewd comments to 4 women at his church, and forcibly kissed and touched 2 girls age 13. Three women had lodged formal complaints with the church, but the only action was to transfer him from Aurora to Hamlet. Source: _News & Observer_ 1/15/92.

PROMINENT METHODIST PASTOR WITH AIDS EXPLOITED PARISH? Following the death on July 4 of Rev. William O. Walker, a prominent Eugene pastor at First United Methodist Church, it was discovered he not only died of AIDS but had used his ministerial position to make sexual advances to at least 12 men, including 6 ministers. Walker infected his wife Carol with AIDS; she died in 1990. In November a church superintendent told parishioners that Walker had been accused of making sexual advances to 2 male teenagers at a Methodist church camp 17 years earlier. Source: _Register-Guard_ 12/6/92.

METHODIST MINISTER PLEA BARGAINS. Rev. Wally Walton, Grace United Methodist, Pierre, pleaded no contest to felony charges of incest & sexual contact with a minor, & was immediately jailed. Walton has agreed to provide details of "sex crimes & illicit sexual activities" against latchkey kids, Girl Scouts & other children. Additionally, Walton's wife Betty was charged with sexual contact with a child, incest, & failure to report a felony. Also indicted are Walton's adopted twin daughters & son-in-law, facing similar charges. Walton drove a bus for a local latchkey program. Mrs. Walton worked with the Girl Scouts. Fellow minister Rev. J. Edwin Coates of the First United Methodist Church in Mitchell, accuses social workers of being overzealous, & said the arrests were indicative of a "police state" & a witchhunt. Prosecutor Mark Moreno excused the delay in charging Walton by saying: "If you charge a minister as I've done, you'd better be sure that you have some concrete evidence, because it's going to totally annihilate his future." Walton voluntarily surrendered his ministerial credentials. Methodists dropped a 2-year statute of limitations on disciplinary problems in May 1992, with no time limit on sex offenses. Source: _Rapid City Journal_ 7/28,29,31/92, 8/1/92.

METHODIST COVER-UP ALLEGED. No charges were brought when youngsters in Piedmont told police & social services they were molested in 1983 by Rev. Wally Walton (see above) at Piedmont Grace United Methodist Church. After a 2-year sabbatical, Walton became pastor at Grace United Methodist in Pierre, where he has been charged with sex offenses against children. The Methodist hierarchy decided he was "not a danger to anyone", permitted him to give sermons during his 2-year break, & "felt he should be given another chance", said Rev. Dick Fisher, formerly Westem Dist. superintendent of the Methodist Church in Rapid City. "We had two concerns at the time: to protect the people & save a person for the ministry." Source: _Rapid City Journal_ 7/29/92.

http://www.cin.org/users/msmith/reformation/methodistabuse.html


MOUNT KISCO, NY. Parishioners at the Presbyterian Church of Mount Kisco yesterday were coming to grips with revelations that their former pastor was charged by the presbytery with sexually abusing eight boys. The eight charges, unveiled at the presbytery's regional meeting at Webb Horton Memorial Presbyterian Church in Middletown, outline abuse of boys under 18. Among the allegations are that Miller invited a child into the shower with him, that he had oral sex with a minor on numerous occasions over two years and that he made inappropriate sexual remarks and propositions. (THE JOURNAL NEWS, December 5, 2002)
Mount Kisco parishioners react to abuse charges
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

HALN Reverend Young Key, 47 Gold Coast Presbyterian minister. Receives 8 year jail sentence after being found guilty in Brisbane District Court of rape, digital rape and indecent dealing with girl, aged 14, in 2000 at Nerang, south of Brisbane. Court hears Haln, who ran farm where visiting Korean Christians could work, seduced girl after offering to teach her English. (Queensland, Australia, 2002).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


TRENTON, NJ. - Two adult males who alleged they were sexually abused as teenagers by a former Presbyterian youth minister have no right to sue the local church and its hierarchy because of the state's charitable immunity law, an appeals court has ruled.

The men sued the national Presbyterian Church, the church'sSynod of the Northeast, the Presbytery of Elizabeth and the Presbyterian Church at Pluckemin claiming they had been repeatedly sexually abused by their Presbyterian youth minister, Jeffrey Cheseboro. A lower court dismissed the case against the church defendants saying that they were afforded charitable immunity under state law. The appellate panel concurred.

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/presbyterianabuse.html

CHURCH SUED FOR CHOIRMASTER'S ASSAULTS. St. George's Cathedral & the Anglican church are being sued over a choirmaster's sexual assaults on choirboys. John Gallienne is serving a 6-1/2 year sentence for abusing boys. Now 17 plaintiffs are suing, claiming damages, plus interest & costs. The suit in part claims church officials were aware of Gallienne's misconduct & held at least 5 meetings over a 6- year period to discuss them, yet took no action to protect boys. Source: _Ottawa Citizen_ 11/11/92.

WOMAN SUES EPISCOPAL PRIEST. A Fostoria woman is suing Rev. Douglas Hodges, of Trinity Episcopal Church, Bishop James Moodey & the owner of a counseling center, alleging the priest forced her to have sex as "treatment". The abuse occurred at a counseling center & the church. Shelley & Daniel Lebay seek more than $700,000 in damages. Source: _Columbus Dispatch_ 10/9/92.

ANGLICAN PRIEST SUSPENDED WITH PAY. Owen Sound minister Jim Francom was suspended With pay from St. George's Anglican Church after being charged in July with rape & assault of a girl under 14. The assaults were alleged to have occurred in London, Ontario between 1975-1984 Source: _Ottawa Citizen_ 8/18/92.

PROMINENT EPISCOPALIAN REMOVED. Nationally known Rev. W. Graham Pulkingham, now living in Virginia, was suspended temporarily from the Episcopalian priesthood after admitting he initiated a sexual relationship with a man he was counseling, destroying the man's marriage. Church officials asked everybody to pray. Source: _Denver Post_ 8/92.
http://www.cin.org/users/msmith/reformation/episcopaleanabuse.html


BAPTIST VOLUNTEER PREYED ON GIRLS? Thomas Road Baptist Church in Phoenix failed to screen churchvolunteer John Herman Kuiper for a criminal record when it permitted him to drive a church bus & volunteer at youth events. Kuiper, who had been convicted in 1991 of a felony charge of 3rd degree sexual assault, was arrested in Phoenix for molesting 5 girls. As a church bus driver in Fort Collins, Colorado, he had received a deferred sentence for molesting a little girl, 5. Rev. Ken Adrian, church pastor, complained to media that the publicity was not good for his Phoenix church. Source: _Arizona Republic_ 11/4/92.

PASTOR GETS 13 YEARS FOR INCEST. Springfield Baptist Church pastor Jon L. Walker, 43, was sentenced to 18 years in prison for molesting a relative for 2-1/2 years, beginning when she was 13. Twenty persons pleaded for leniency, including the local NAACP president. Walter's defense was to accuse his wife of concocting the charges to get even with him because he had an affair with a young church member! Deputy DA Karen Gray said the letters of support were "a sad testimony to the fact that Mr. Walter's life has been a fraud". Source: _San Luis Obispo Telegram Tribune_ 8/5/92.

VICTIM SUES CONVICTED MINISTER. Rancho Cucamonga pastor John Marshall, convicted of sexually battering an ill man, 25, is being sued for $1 million by victim Kirk Judy, along with his church, the American Baptist Churches of USA & of the Pacific Southwest. The 6'2", 200-lb pastor overpowered the 5'6", 140-lb victim at a bedside counseling visit. He got only 2 years of probation. The suit alleges that Marshall had committed other crimes, & that the 2 Baptist groups should have known about them. Source: _Ontario Daily Bulletin_
http://www.cin.org/users/msmith/reformation/baptistsabuse.html


/01/2002

By MARK WROLSTAD / The Dallas Morning News

National Presbyterian officials have uncovered broader allegations of sexual abuse by missionaries while concluding that a late minister at a prominent Highland Park church molested at least two dozen girls and women, mostly in Africa, in his 40-year career.

The denomination confirmed long-standing accusations against the Rev. Bill Pruitt as part of an unprecedented 18-month investigation that doubled the number of Mr. Pruitt's known victims.

A report to be released Tuesday called for the parent church to make significant policy changes aimed at preventing clergy abuse and recommended further inquiries. The 173-page report centered on mission work at boarding schools in Congo during Mr. Pruitt's service there from 1945 to 1978.

http://www.lara.on.ca/~nmtruth/allegations.html

[TheBigGuy]

76. ...still consider myself Catholic..

...although its been a long time since Ive been to church.

Being part Polish Catholicsm is a bit wrapped up in my ethnic identity. But I also appreciate some the deeper spiritual aspects of the religion, as elucidated by Thomas Merton (Brother Louis) in his writings.

[Liberator_Rev]

77. Either you're Catholic or a bigoted anti-catholic idiot?

IMHO Nicholas_J was speaking for many Catholic DUers when he said in a post above "Most of the anti-catholic idiots are simply liberal who are really bigots."

They have a hard time understanding that anybody can believe in ANY other than their church. Anybody who expresses anything other than reverential respect for Catholic belief has got to be a "bigoted anti-catholic idiot". "Protestant" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiot".

"Protestants" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiots", (unless they keep their mouths shut).
"Jews" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiots", (unless they keep their mouths shut).
"Muslims" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiots", (unless they keep their mouths shut).
"Atheists" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiots", (unless they keep their mouths shut). "Agnostics" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiots", (unless they keep their mouths shut).

At least the Catholic Church no longer has the power of torturing and killing us, which they DID for centuries.
See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist .

[IB3]

78. Is it not possible

For people to hold different...even seemingly contradictory beliefs...and both of them be essentially GOOD people?

I have no problem with the Catholic Church being opposed to gay marriage...as far as I know, gays are not forced to be Catholic or abide by the rulings of the church.

[Rich Hunt]

87. I DO have a problem with it

Because there are gay and lesbian Catholics, as well as many family and friends who love them.

People are leaving the church because of dogma.

However, it seems the most popular parishes are the ones that speak to the needs of the people. The anti-Catholics on this thread have no familiarity with the existence of these parishes.

[Blue_Chill]

83. Wrong again

IMHO Nicholas_J was speaking for many Catholic DUers when he said in a post above "Most of the anti-catholic idiots are simply liberal who are really bigots."

They have a hard time understanding that anybody can believe in ANY other than their church. Anybody who expresses anything other than reverential respect for Catholic belief has got to be a "bigoted anti-catholic idiot". "Protestant" = "bigoted anti-catholic idiot".

No one is saying that you must believe in our church. What we are saying is that 'anti-catholics' exist on this board, you are proof of this claim.

Anti-Catholics, are not simply any other faith or lack of, they are those that seek to attack the catholic church every chance they get for whatever reason. The posts from them are often filled with dishonest fact manipulation, like when you said Hitler was a Catholic a little while ago.

[Rich Hunt]

85. and Hitler was most certainly NOT a Catholic

Hey, look! Adolf hates Christ!

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practices a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its keynote is intolerance.

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure.

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."

[Rich Hunt]

84. fine.

Say hi to the Reverend Paisley for me, and his buddies at Bob Jones.

[curse10]

90. I'm not Catholic, but my mom is

so I've always, even though I disagree with religion, had the utmost respect for Catholics. It's a beautiful religion.

[ButterflyBlood]

98. why?

the way it discriminates against women in their priesthood requirements and persecutes gays? i just wish that like you my mom dind't raise me Catholic since it's one of the most disgusting things i've ever been involved in. At least she's apologized and said back when I was born it usually didn't spawn so much anger at the church as now.

[Liberator_Rev]

91. The Catholic Church disowned Hitler ONLY AFTER he was defeated!

The Catholic Church disowned Hitler ONLY AFTER he was defeated!but when it helped his cause to play the role of a defender of Catholicism or Christianity, the Catholic Church did nothing to remove that advantage from Hitler. He was obviously an evil man and may not have been a Catholic in GOD'S eyes, but he certainly was a Catholic in the eyes of the Catholics of Germany, because the Church (for whatever reason) AVOIDED excommunicating him, which is what would have made it obvious to everybody that Hitler was NOT a Roman Catholic in good standing with his Church. (And the same should be said of all the OTHER Roman Catholic allies of Hitler, one of whom, Tiso, was a Catholic PRIEST ) :



Hitler Was Not An Atheist

( but a Roman Catholic )

by John Patrick Michael Murphy



Every time Christian soldiers put their NAZI uniforms on,
they were repeatedly reminded that "God is with us".

       
In George Orwell's 1984, it was stated, "Who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present controls the past." Who is going to control the present-fundamentalism or freedom?
History is being distorted by many preachers and politicians.  They are heard on the airwaves condemning atheists and routinely claim Adolf Hitler was one.
        Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political institution as an infant in Austria.  He became a communicant and an altar boy in his youth and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in that church.

        Its worst doctrines never left him.  He was steeped in its liturgy, which contained the words "perfidious jew." This hateful statement was not removed until 1961.  "Perfidy" means treachery.  In his day, hatred of Jews was the norm.  In great measure it was sponsored by two major religions of Germany, Catholicism and Lutheranism.
        He greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews.  Luther condemned the Catholic Church for its pretensions and corruption, but he supported the centuries of papal pogroms against the Jews.  Luther said, "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them." "Ungodly wretches" he called the Jews in his book Table Talk.
       
Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, ". . .  I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator.  By fighting off the Jews.  I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.  Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him.  Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never appeared on the index of Forbidden Books.  He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church.  Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain, and Italy.  The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of these countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.
       
Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones.  Acclaimed Hitler biographer John Toland explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite the detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jews was the killer of god.  The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god . . . "
       
Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church.  Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).  His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests.  It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.
       
Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values."  He liked corporeal punishment in home and school.  Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration.  While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages.  He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it.
        The author is a retired attorney in Colorado Springs who writes a weekly column for an alternative newspaper.
{ from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 19, Number 2 

And here is a translation of part of a speech that Adolf Hitler gave in April, 1922. It was then published in "My New Order" :
       
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
       
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
       
Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
       
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...
       
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
       
When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

        "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." {Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46}
       
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." {Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152}
        I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.  By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work.

Excerpts from http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal

[Rich Hunt]

92. WRONG

...Hitler said that stuff in 1922. The quotes I posted are from much later.

Sorry. Bzzzzt.

He didn't like Christianity much, either.

[Liberator_Rev]

94. Sorry, Dymaxia, but you've proved Nothing !

What you would need to produce is proof that Pius XII or "Hitler's Pope"
DID condemn and/or excommunicate Hitler and / or
DID put he NAZI Bible, Hitler's Mein Kampf on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Actually, provide us with proof that the Catholic Church EVER put Mein Kampf on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Now although Pius NEVER threatened the Catholics leaders of the NAZI Party with excommunication, after the war, he DID threatened the Catholics leaders of the wonderful LIBERAL "Worker Priest" movement
with excommunication, and killed it.

Can you admit that he killed the WRONG movement ????

[Rich Hunt]

95. you're dodging the subject

The subject was: was Hitler a Catholic or a Christian, NOT whether some Catholics or Christians supported Hitler.

You made the claim, I refuted it.

Then you turn into the aggressor and ask me to respond to claims I never made. Which makes me wonder what this is really all about with you. You're simply very aggressive and obsessed with Catholics.

You also contradict yourself: the priests and nuns who were persecuted by Hitler, by your own assertions in this and other threads, were delusional Catholics because of what "their" pope and "their" church may or may not have done.

Please make up your mind: were these victims Catholic or not?

[Liberator_Rev]

97. Dumaxia, you've still proven nothing !

The clergy are the guardians of church membership. Far from EXCOMMUNICATING Adolf Hitler, they consistently told the faithful to OBEY Hitler as their lawful head of state. Here are some examples of what they told Catholics about Hitler:


During the same month that Hitler's troops were mercilessly crushing Poland (one of the most Roman Catholic countries on earth), this is what the hierarchy recommended that German Catholics do about it :


Sept. 25, 1939 (page 6)

German Soldiers Rallied by Churches

------------------------

Protestant and Catholic
Exhort to Reich Victory
and Just Peace
------------------------

Wireless to the New York Times.
Frankfurt-on-the-Main, Germany, Sept.24. Periodicals of the German Protestant and Catholic churches are now publishing many exhortative articles explaining the duties of soldiers fighting in the defense of their country and admonish in the German soldiers to fight in the spirit of St. Michael for a German victory and a just peace.
The archangel is shown, brandishing a battle sword and piercing a dragon with a holy lance on the front page of Catholic papers.
In the Western and Southern German Catholic dioceses, the clergy headed by the Archbishop and bishops, are actively engaged in work for the welfare of refugees evacuated from the western

frontier districts. Many cloisters have been transformed into hospitals and the monks and nuns are working under the direction of the Red Cross.
The Catholic bishops of Germany have issued a pastoral letter stating:
"In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic
soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality.
"We appeal to the faithful to join an ardent prayers that the divine Providence of God Almighty may lead this war to blessed success and peace for our fatherland and nation."
Each Bishop in addition has issued a special message to his own diocese, including the Bishop of Ruertemberg, who was expelled from his diocese last year for refusing to vote in a National Socialist election.
Cardinal Archbishop Burtram, head of the German Episcopal congregation, has similarly issued a patriotic message to his flock urging that all "be strong in your heart, all you who confide in God all mighty."

---

Transcribed verbatim and in full (for better legibility) from
microfiche copies of the originals.

and on Pearl Harbor Day, "a day that will live in infamy", the Roman Catholic hierarchy urged their followers, and God, to make Hitler victorious :



Dec. 7, 1941 (page 33)

War Prayer For Reich

---------------------------------------------------------
Catholic Bishops at Fulda
Ask Blessing and Victory
------------------------------------------------------

by telephone to the New York Times.
Fulda, Germany, Dec. 6 -- The Conference of German Catholic Bishops assembled in Fulda has recommended the introduction of a

special "war prayer" which is to be read at the beginning and end of all divine services.
The prayer implores Providence to bless German arms with victory and grant protection to the lives and health of all soldiers. The Bishops further instructed Catholic clergy to keep and remember in a special Sunday sermon at least once a month German soldiers "on land, on sea and in the air."
The German Catholic clergy, while strongly objecting to certain aspects of Nazi racial policy, has always taken care to emphasize the duty of every Catholic to his country as loyal Germans in the present war.

---

.

[Rich Hunt]

169. how very Christian of you

You posted that Hitler was a Catholic.

I proved you wrong.

Then you change my name to "dumaxia" and posted a whole bunch or irrelevant material to detract from the embarrassment.

My brother was a Catholic who converted to Methodism, and he's as fanatical as you are.

Also, saying that liberals should embrace Christ is offensive to those liberals who have non-Christian faiths.

Yes, you are a proselytizer.

[Dob Bole]

103. Liberal Fundamentalist?

It seems that you, like a fundamentalist, are convinced that you are the only one who is right about everything. All you've done is simply replaced fundamentalism with a new fundamentalism, using liberalism as a base for your fundamentalist beliefs, whereas rightists would use strictly the Bible.

This is no better. To say that liberalism=Christianity is incorrect. While there are many similarites between Christianity and the rather new philosophy of liberalism (that's why Christians often vote Democratic) it is not the same. A liberal fundamentalism is no better.

[EAMcClure]

107. Where did Hitler say he was a Roman Catholic?

Since when is say "God is with me," or "I am following God's will" mean you are a Roman Catholic?

Does that make herr Bush a Roman Catholic?

Did that make Queen Elizabeth I a Roman Catholic?

Did that make Ivan the Terrible a Roman Catholic?

He was baptised and communioned in the Roman Catholic Church... but at heart he was a Teutonic, a nationalist, and was in fact establishing a new religion based on what he viewed as natural, inalienable law, the law of race and land. Tribal law, not Catholic law. The church of the Fourth Reich would have not been Roman Catholic. Read Mein Kampf for yourself.

Eric

[Liberator_Rev]

181. When did the Church say HE WASN'T ?

It was IMPORTANT FOR HITLER to be perceived as a Roman Catholic, since 30% or so was Catholic and most of the remained was Lutheran.
Nobody is claiming that he was a MODEL CATHOLIC, so get off that strawman argument. God knows, however, how much of his hatred of the Jews was fueled by the long history of Catholic and Lutheran anti-Jewish thinking.
Politically, Hitler USED his identification as a Roman Catholic (in good standing) to the hilt and it was up to the Church to distance itself from him PUBLICLY, where it would have mattered.
INSTEAD the Church gave the impression to the Catholic faithful that Hitler deserved their unquestioned obedience. Proof of how effective their advice was is that a grand total of only SEVEN individual Catholics are known to have refused service in the NAZI armed forces. And this was considered so UNCATHOLIC that some of these were denied the sacraments for refusing to give in to obey their Fuerher. See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal for lots of PROOF.

[EAMcClure]

220. Hitler did not play the Catholic card

He played the God card, the almighty father card, the motherland card. But nowhere do I see Hitler exploit Catholicism.

Like I said, Hitler was reforming the German religion in the name of eugenics and nationalism.

You can play connect the dots and point him to Catholicism all you want... the church's behavior on this matter is less than exemplary.

But Hitler did not exploit Catholicism personally. His was a different ball game. To have personally used the Roman Catholic church would have given the Pope perceived authority over his government. Nein, Hitler was the fuhrer, the father... the patriarch of Germany.

I am quibbling with you about this point, not the Church's behavior.

Eric

[StandWatie]

101. I just saw "magdalene sisters"

the last one closed down in 1996, I was raised Catholic but for all those people in this thread who think the church as a whole has changed so much you really need to see that to see that things are still terribly fucked up.

[MrMonk]

112. Then you're already an expert on Catholicism!

Feel free to jump in and bash away!

[EAMcClure]

113. All those cultists and slaves could use atheist advice

It's pretty obvious that all those free-thinkers out there really know what's what in this world. I give them the authority to say whatever harsh and redactive things they want, because man are they smart! SMART!

Eric

[ElsewheresDaughter]

120. i'm off to read some Merton..ciao

[MidwestMomma]

125. The lack of respect for Catholics on this board is appalling....

What is wrong with you people?

Catholics have always been staunch supporters of the Democratic party. And what, now we're not good enough for you?

And to prove I'm REALLY a liberal, I have to leave the Church?

Gee, that's not asking too much...

And for those that want to drag out ever atrocity committed by the Catholic church in it's early history as an argument that they are scum and anyone involved with them are scum....Take a look at our country's own history. Seems like we committed some vast atrocities of our own against the Native Americans. So does that mean ALL Americans are scum for staying Americans? Yeah right.

I'm out. Got to work my SECOND job of the day. Catholic or not, this ecomomy blows and arguing about whether Catholics have the right to draw breath ain't getting the bills paid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. Just goes to show hatred and scapegoating are not trademarked by Repubs

It is one thing to hold the church leadership accountable for their transgressions. Quite another to alienate Catholics.

DU is beginning to get rather barfable on a daily basis.

I am seriously reconsidering my participation.

[nini]

132. Thank you!! this is the one issue that makes me nuts here.

I feel like I'm being bullied because I am Catholic.. Worse yet a PRACTICING one.

My God.. I don't push my views down others throats because I respect their own beliefs.. wish the same was true for others.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

135. nini ...indeed it is appalling...catholic bashing is accepted here

if this was jewish or fundie christian bashing it would be halted

[Alenne]

136. That's not what the Christian and Jewish members say.

[nini]

140. not like Catholic bashing - not even close

fundies may get ripped here because they are so far right, but I haven't seen much Jew bashing(I could have missed it but it certainly isn't a favorite pastime like ripping Catholics left and right.)

by the way - Catholics ARE Christians.. though I'm not sure you meant to imply otherwise.

[ButterflyBlood]

145. the reason why both Catholics and fundies get bashed

is because their LEADERS promote right wing policies.

[nini]

157. I know what you mean..

but there are many members who are committed to the 'faith' and also have some issues with those leaders.

Attacking the members is not right unless they are defending the issues you are so incensed about.

There is no black and white on this stuff.. lots of gray areas with people and these faiths and it's not right to assume being a member of one of these faiths agrees with EVERYTHING that comes out of the leader's mouths.

[ButterflyBlood]

159. I don't see anyone bashing the actual members here

just the leadership and hierchy. People accuse Liberator Rev of that when all I've seen him do is bash the Pope and church heirchy and its actions in the past (such as WWII)

[nini]

160. it's the .. 'you're stupid if you believe that' stuff

we're either stupid or right wing.. sometimes it's subtle, sometimes not.

ahhhh.. we can go on forever. but thank you for being able to discuss this without going nuts! going to bed now.. zzzzzzzzzzz Good night BB

[Liberator_Rev]

180. Nini, don't take it personally, because

as you say, "I don't push my views down others throats because I respect their own beliefs.. wish the same was true for others."
YOU are not the problem, but your leaders ARE, because they DO shove their views down the throats of NON-Catholics. THEY are now telling public officials in various countries, who may be Catholic but are elected to represent EVERY KIND OF CITIZEN that they should vote the CATHOLIC LINE on abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc.

So, when these LEADERS force you to choose, are you on the side of Liberalism and Democracy or Catholicism and Dictatorship?

[mumon]

130. I respect some Catholics...

but I've got a problem with the hubris of the guys that run the show.

And Mel Gibson.

But Merton's OK.

The Jesuits are OK.

Today. In the Reformation they sucked.

And yes, I do have moral authority over the Vatican.

Denying it does me no good.

[Merlin]

133. The problem is--and always has been--blind support of the idiotic Vatican.

Throughout history, the Papacy has caused enormous difficulties throughout the world. True, the Pope is a symbol of holiness, yada yada. But let's face it, the Vatican is run by a bunch of pathetic, dried up, right wing, quasi-monastic octegenarians who know very little about life and what it's like out there in the real world.

The problem with Catholics is now and always has been their blind obeisance to the Vatican. The outrageous usurpation of church authority by the popes--in particular the declaration of Papal infallibility by Pius IX in the mid 1800s--who are human, not divine, and who maintain a pretense of being other worldly when in fact they are very much about politics and control.

As a former Catholic who has begun a real search for the truth, I am appalled by both the papacy and the stupidity of contemporary Catholics who cannot see the real Jesus through the white smoke being blown on their beliefs emanating from Rome. It's time for Catholics worldwide to stand up to the Vatican and demand liberal reform of the kind initiated by John XXIII before his untimely death.

[Liberator_Rev]

186. It's amazing how "Liberal" Catholics identify with the

ultra-Conservative hierarchy (assuming that there are still Liberal critics they might identify with instead), and refuse to face the plain fact that, as you say, "the Vatican is run by a bunch of pathetic, dried up, right wing, quasi-monastic octegenarians who know very little about life and what it's like out there in the real world."

I was astounded to learn that Pacelli, who became Pope Pius XII and Montini, who became Paul VI, were not even exposed to other students during their seminary training, but were privately tutored!

[Merlin]

194. You know, I wonder if the way to stimulate change in the church...

You know, I wonder if the way to stimulate change in the church...
might not be to focus on criticism of the entire Vatican establishment.

What I mean is that most Catholics feel a deep, heartfelt kinship to the faith. There is something powerfully endearing in the appeal of the story of Christ's passion and all the associated stories, in the lives of the saints, and in being a participant in "Holy Mother Church" and the continuation of a "movement" that--they believe--was started by Christ. All of that seems beyond effective challenge.

But I think what can be challenged effectively--and maybe even what is most worthy of challenge--is the Vatican itself, its anti-democratic structure, its inner power struggles, it's phony claims to divine guidance. It might be possible that these can be criticized constructively without unduly offending most Catholics.

What do you think?

There must be some way to stimulate change in the Catholic Church. God knows it's needed.

[DemBones DemBones]

139. It was a good idea, Dob Bole, but at DU, Catholics are like

Rodney Dangerfield -- we can't get no respect. :shrug:

A sincere thanks to those who *do* practice tolerance toward other religions, as we all should.

[ButterflyBlood]

142. I have no respect toward Christian Identity

and thus I have no respect toward one of the biggest oppressors of women and homosexuals in the world.

The thing that makes me most angry is that there is no way to 100% unCatholic yourself, I'd just like them to tear up my baptismal certificate and consider me a total outsider who never step foot in a Catholic church. But I can't do that, so when this organization does crap that disgusts me, it just compounds the fact that I was indoctrinated in it against my will, and can't every "officially" be out.

[nini]

146. get excommunicated..

.

[ButterflyBlood]

147. how?

since pro-choice Catholic politicians keep getting the threats but it never happens, I don't see what some 19 year old slacker can do. I always assumed the old bell book and candle routine was dead since the Middle Ages.

[nini]

149. they still do it from what I know..

But, to be honest with you... baptism means nothing if you have denied the faith.. Basically, as an adult you are to go through Confirmation to confirm your faith. By refusing to do that you are basically renouncing the baptism. So, you really don't need to do anything as you have made the choice.

[ButterflyBlood]

151. I did go through it in 8th grade

because I would get a lot of money as gifts and wouldn't even have to take anymore religious classes. That's really the only reasons why though.

[nini]

156. which is why the age has been moved up to older..

Again, you have renounced the Church - in doing so none of those sacraments mean anything right now. If you are serious about excommunication ask around to see if anyone knows a decent, open minded priest and ask him about what you want to do and tell him why.

Too bad you can't talk to a couple of the priests I know around here. They're very cool and liberal - which is why I drive 20 miles to the churches they are at. They are good about understanding people's issues with the the organized hierarchy. In my mind, there's the faith and there is the organization. It's the faith for me. I do not agree with everything that comes out of the vatican and it can be a battle for me.. however the 'teachings' are ultimately what it's about for me.

You are an adult now and it is your choice. I hope you can come to some peace over this.

[ButterflyBlood]

158. well the age must've been moved pretty recently

that was only 5 years ago. of course my mom said she got it in 1st grade.

regardless of what the majority of the laity or even priests think, i just can't be OK with something as the leadership at the top sucks, which is the case here. and unfortunately they have the rules too rigidly so the people who disagree can't go off and ordain women priests or tell people it's OK to use birth control. And trying to change from the inside strikes me as I said in another thread like lobbying Coke to become more like Pepsi because you like Pepsi more instead of just drinking Pepsi. There are alternatives for those who don't agree and can't handle it, and I fall into that category.

[Woodstock]

141. I think real change will come with a new pope

I have nothing but contempt for the current pope. Misogyny would be putting it mildly. I think there are lots of progressive people who are working to change the church from the inside. That's why I can't stand it when people say "Catholics believe (insert Vatican dogma here.)" The fact is, a lot of Catholics believe in equality of the sexes and reproductive rights.

[ButterflyBlood]

143. maybe so but

why would you join or stay in a Christian Identity sect or The World Church of the Creator if you believed in equality of the races? I see the same thing about the Catholic church.

[MrPrax]

154. "if you want to change the Church, you have to do it from the inside"

In a broader sense this should be on the gravestone of every liberal.
I have heard this 'cop out' for years...
Many many fine and righteous people for centuries have tried to 'change' the catholic church from the inside...
So your fantasy is that there might be an even 'more' important spoiler...
This is really like saying that any institution designed for a 'purpose' can be changed from one intent to another...
Religions generally are incubators of sexism, racism, classism, apologists for wealth and defenders of charity...
Crop circles and UFOs are more interesting than some clown dressed as a roman emperor spewing nonsense that any intelligent person can dispute.
They are as morally as objectionable as any evangelical or fundies racket going today...
Imagine believing that 'dead bodies' come back to Life and go to some place called Heaven or perfectly rational people talk to entities called 'angels'
Medievalism to be sure and as offensive as people who defend such 'pronoucements' with little more than 'it's religion'...or 'it's in the Bible'--any routine to shirk personal responsibility for their own beliefs

:grr:

[ButterflyBlood]

162. I suppose I (among others) have offended some people in this thread...

so now that I've cooled down somewhat, I'll apologize.

But this is an issue which really really inspires contempt in me. As I explained in some of the other posts I have a really personal loathing for the RCC. The mention of it tends to flare me up.

[Tinoire]

163. Catholic & PROUD of my sisters, brothers & Church

I don't fathom the bashers here have any understanding of great things the Catholic Church has done and continues to do.

Millions of poor in South America, Africa, the Carribbean, Asia, and the Middle East would be homeless, starving, thirsty, sick and totally uneducated if it weren't for the free shelters, free kitchens, free hosptitals, free clinics and free schools run by the Catholic Church and staffed by brave, loving men and women who have given up everything to follow Jesus' example.

You think Mother Teresa was born in a vacuum? Father Berrigan? Dorothy Day? Charles Liteky? Fr Maximilan Kolbe? Padre Pio? Bishop Oscar Romero? The Liberation Priest struggling to save the poor? The nuns tortured and murdered in Columbia or Africa? The 3 American nuns just imprisoned for daring to expose the horror of the nuclear weapons in our own back-yard.

Sigh... Signs of small minds who can't understand that nothing on earth is pure and nothing on earth is totally perfect.

Also signs of small minds who have nothing better to focus on or discuss in a world our government is blowing up thanks to the the inability of the average American to focus on anything other than entertainment or cheap thrills.

So Bobe Dole, here's to you from one Catholic, sister in Christ :toast:. Thank you for a kind idea but stick around- Catholic bashing is a DU past-time but what the hell- we just turn the other cheek and keep on with our little paths.

Jesus is crucified daily. God dishonored daily. The world is just an ugly place because of a total lack of love. Non serviam, non serviam! Quis ut Deus? Nothing new under the sun here. Since the beginnings of Christianity and until the end, the constant is
Christiani ad leones, christianae ad lenones.

Non veritatem desiderabant, sed calumniam praeparabant. St Augustine

Gotta go now- all the love in this thread is too overwhelming.

PS. Bona venatio :)

[General Discontent]

164. Tinoire...

I'm a good Catholic boy, well not recently practicing but I THINK about it and the things that you mentioned EVERY DAY. This is one long thread and I just realized that your post was the last one, but I'd though I'd say that your one paragraph really summed it all up for me:

"Jesus is crucified daily. God dishonored daily. The world is just an ugly place because of a total lack of love. Non serviam, non serviam! Quis ut Deus? Nothing new under the sun here. Since the beginnings of Christianity and until the end, the constant is
Christiani ad leones, christianae ad lenones."

Well, except for the latin that I didn't understand, ;)

In the immortal words of Rodney King. "Can't we all just get along?"
So I go about my way living and try to do the best I can. I don't always do my best but I wish I had. I think about how I could have done better and what I would do next time. And at the end of the day, I hope that I somehow made the world a little better. Man, what if we all did that?

Thanks for the inspiring post.


D Wolfman

[Tinoire]

166. Thank you DWolfman. Yours was such a thoughful post

I don't make a conscious enough effort to be good which is sad because I know I could be better if I did. People like you, who do make that effort, inspire me- remind me that it is my duty to do the same.

Your last paragraph is the inspiration.

So I go about my way living and try to do the best I can. I don't always do my best but I wish I had. I think about how I could have done better and what I would do next time. And at the end of the day, I hope that I somehow made the world a little better. Man, what if we all did that?

Thank you


Non serviam, non serviam!
Those were the words of the one with ultimate pride telling God that he would NOT serve.

Quis ut Deus?
Was Michael's response "Who is like God?"

Christiani ad leones, christianae ad lenones
Means Christian men to the lions, Christian women to the brothels. --Tertullian

Bona Venatio means Happy Hunting as my friend Magistrate often says to me. :)

[General Discontent]

167. Tinoire, Just a quick thank you for the thank you,

and the translation. It makes the paragraph even more profound. So here's a cyber hug, <hug> and peace!


D Wolfman

[Tinoire]

168. Thanks! As a Catholic, I needed that ;)

Here's one to you too! We both need that! All need that :)

Thanks!

Pax ;)

[rman]

165. i don't acknowledge the Vatican's moral authority

When the Vatican (or anyone) promotes something that i think is wrong, i speak out against it.
Is this lack of respect? Or is it that some think catholics somehow deserve more respect than others?

[dwckabal]

240. You've hit on a good point...

which is the point I've been trying to make here for the past few days, but instead I get smeared as an anti-Catholic; the point being:

If you don't acknowledge the Vatican's (or Pope's) moral (and theological) authority, then by definition, you are not Catholic.

Why do people have such a hard time understanding this very simple concept?

Call yourself something else, but don't call yourself Catholic, because the Catholic church won't acknowledge you as a member if you don't agree with their tenets.

BTW, you can insert any religion for Catholic, and the statement still stands.

[Liberator_Rev]

175. If Christ is the "Head" of the Catholic Church, then why has he have so li

Back in Post # 138, I see that Dembones claimed that I was mistaken in refering to the Pope, rather than Christ, as the head of the Roman Catholic Church. He right expressing what Catholics are TAUGHT. But I'm stating what I believe is FACT, as opposed to what is his dogma.

If Christ is the "Head" of the Catholic Church, then why has Christ have so little say in what the Catholic Church says and does, compared the mark the Popes have making on that church since Jesus left the scene nearly 2000 years ago, i.e.

1. Prayers for the dead - about 300 a.d.
   
2. Making the sign of the cross 300 a.d.
   
3. Wax Candles - 320 a.d.
   
4. Veneration of angels and dead saints - 375 a.d.
   
5. The use of images - 375 a.d.
   
6. The Mass as a daily celebration - 394 a.d
   
7. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary. The term Mother of God first applied to her by the Council of Ephesus - 431 a.d.
   
8. Priests begin to dress differently than laymen. - 500 a.d.
   
9. Extreme unction - 526 a.d.
   
10. The doctrine of purgatory is established by Gregory I. - 593 a.d.
    
11. Latin language used in prayer and worship commanded by Gregory I - 600 a.d.
    
12. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and to angels - 600 a.d.
    
13. Title of "Pope" (Bishop of the universe) given to Boniface III by the Emperor Phocas - 607 a.d.
    
14. Kissing the pope's foot begins with Pope Constantine - 709 a.d.
    
15. Temporal power of the popes is conferred by Pepin, King of the Franks - 750 a.d.
    
16. Worship of the cross, images and relics is now officially authorized - 786 a.d.
    
17. Holy Water (mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest) comes into use. - 850 a.d
    
18. The worship of Saint Joseph - 890 a.d.
    
19. College of Cardinals established - 927 a.d. (replacing election by the people of the diocese of Rome)
    
20. Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII - 965 a.d.
    
21. The canonization of dead saints is first done by Pope John XV - 995 a.d.
    
22. Fasting on Fridays and during "Lent" begins - 998 a.d.
    
23. The mass has gradually developed into a sacrifice and attendance is now obligatory - 1050 a.d
    
24. The celibacy of the priesthood is required by Pope Gregory II - 1079 a.d.
    
25. The rosary, a mechanical praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit - 1090 a.d.
    
26. The Inquisition, in operation for centuries, is now made official by Council of Verona - 1184 a.d.
    
27. The sale of indulgences begins - 1190 a.d.
    
28. Doctrine of transubstantiation is proclaimed by Pope Innocent III as the power to bring down God out of heaven into a cup and wafer - 1215 a.d.
    
29. Auricular confession of sins to a priest is instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran council. - 1215 a.d.
    
30. The adoration of the wafer (host) is decreed by Pope Honorius III - 1220 a.d.
    
31. Laymen are officially forbidden to have or read the Bible - It is placed on the "Index of Forbidden Books" by the Council of Valencia - 1229 a.d.
    
32. Protection by a piece of cloth, the scapular is invented by Simon Stock, a british monk - 1251 a.d.
    
33. Laymen are forbidden to drink the cup at communion, by order of the Council of Constance - 1414 a.d.
    
34. Purgatory is proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence - 1439 A.D.
    
35. Doctrine of seven sacraments is affirmed on pain of mortal sin - 1439 a.d. (These SEVEN  key sacraments make the clergy crucial to every aspect of every Catholic's life.)
    
36. The first part of the "Ave Maria" saying is made official - 1508 a.d.
    
37. The last part of the "Ave Maria" has been prepared, and is required of the faithful by Pope Sixtus V - 1593 a.d.
    
38. The Jesuit Order is founded by Ignatius Loyola - 1534 a.d.
    
39. Tradition (the sayings of the popes and councils) is declared to be equal in authority with the bible, by the Council of Trent.- 1545 a.d.
    
40. The apocryphal books are added to tthe bible by the Council of Trent - 1546 a.d.
    
41. The creed of Pope Pius IV is imposed as the official creed of the church - 1560 a.d.
    
42. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary is proclaimed by Pope Pius IX - 1854 a.d.
    
43. The "Syllabus of Errors" is proclaimed by Pope Pius X, and ratified by the First Vatican Council, as the truth of God. (It condemns freedom of religion, speech, press, and all scientific discoveries that have not been approved by the church). - 1864 a.d.
    
44. The temporal authority of the pope over all rulers is officially reaffirmed - 1864 a.d.
    
45. The absolute infallibility of the pope in all matters of a faith and morals is proclaimed by the First Vatican Council - 1870 a.d.
    
46. Public schools are condemned by Pope Pius XI - 1930 a.d.
    
47. The Assumption of the Pope Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) is proclaimed by Pope Pius XII - 1950 a.d.
    
48. Mary is proclaimed to be "the Mother of God", by Pope Paul VI - 1965 a.d.
    

        We have yet to date the Roman Catholic innovations below :
Novel forms of worship :

• "Sacred Heart of Jesus"
  
• "Christ the King"
  
• The Infant of Prague
  
• The "Queenship" of Mary
  
• Mary "Mediatrix of all graces"
  
• The "Way of the Cross"
  
• The "Novena"
  
• Shrines of all kinds
  
• "Our Lady of Fatima"
  
• "Our Lady of Lourdes"
  
• "Patron Saints" with power in specialized areas
  
• "Easter duties" (Confession and communion at least once a year)
  Theological Inventions:
  
• Crucial role of the Pope, and through him of all clergy
  
• Limbo
  
• Reverence for and submission to its "men of God"
  
• the duties of wives to their husbands
  
• preparations for marriage (Cana conferences)
  
• publishing bands of marriage
  
• strict ban on marriage after divorce (except for those wealthy enough to get special treatment, such as "annulment")
  
• burial of Catholics in Catholics-only cemeteries
  
• Identifying the following as "Mortal Sins":
  • masturbation
    
  • birth control
    
  • abortion
    
  
          In 1713, Pope Clement XI had the following to say about the "Jansenist heresies" below:
          "We declare, condemn and disallow all and each of these Propositions as false, captious, ill-sounding, offensive to pious ears, scandalous, pernicious, rash, injurious to the Church and its practices, not only outrageous against the Church but even against the secular powers, seditious, impious, blasphemous, suspected of heresy and savouring of heresy itself, as also encouraging heretics and heresies and even schism, erroneous, often condemned, and lastly also heretical, containing divers heresies manifestly tending to innovation".
  
• 'Christians are to sanctify the Lord's Day with reading godly books, more particularly the Holy Scriptures.'
• 'To pull the New Testament out of the hands of Christians is to shut the mouth of Christ against them.'
• 'To forbid Christians the reading of the Holy Scripture and especially the Gospel is to forbid the use of the Light by the children of Light and to punish them with a kind of excommunication.'
    (The Vicars of Christ, by Peter De Rosa P. 232)
  
  This is just a sample of what you will find at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist .
  

[Dob Bole]

176. "I don't hate the Catholics, I just hate the Catholic..."

That seems to be your point. As I said, you are a liberal fundamentalist. You say that Christianity=Liberalism and that any departure from liberalism is a departure from true Christianity.

In my book, anyone who makes a religion out of Christianity is a Christian fundamentalist.

[ButterflyBlood]

177. comment

"In my book, anyone who makes a religion out of Christianity is a Christian fundamentalist."

no one has done that more than the Catholic church. They've put more mechanical rituals and rigid dogma in place than anyone else.

of course, saying that liberalism is the only TRUE form of Christianity is kind of exactly what Jerry Falwell is saying in reverse.

[Dob Bole]

178. That may be true

in certain areas. But a lot of the ritual is simply culture, not necessarily strict rules. How strict someone is varies from person to person.

I do agree with your "Jerry Falwell in reverse" assertion, however.

[Liberator_Rev]

182. The TRUTH is OUT .

Thanks for letting "the cath" out of the bag, Bob
You did nothing to answer the post in question. Instead, you made it clear that your whole problem with "Liberals Like Christ" is our LIBERALISM. And your CATHOLICISM has real problems with LIBERALISM, doesn't it? That's precisely the point that I have been trying to make. The HIERARCHY of the Roman Catholic Church is extremely CONSERVATIVE, and those who identify WITH THAT HIERARCHY --instead of with the CATHOLIC FAITHFUL -- are enemies of LIBERALISM.

I have no problem with the great Catholic little people and nuns and clergy, who tend to be Liberals. My problem is with the ultra-Conservative HIERARCHY (and those who defend them instead of recognizing the harm they do to their church as well as the others in whose lives they interfere.)

P.S. As for which church YOU belong to, or how people spell their their screen names, this may be hard for you to imagine, but I have more important things to worry about.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dob Bole]

189. I said nothing of the sort, but you've changed my mind...

I now realize that you, in fact, worship your website.

[Rich Hunt]

188. You said above...

That the "little people" of the church, even the "liberal" ones, identify with the hierarchy.

So why should you be believed.

You talk about persecution, but you have little to say of the persecution of Catholics in Ireland, strangely enough.

[Liberator_Rev]

192. If the Catholics of Northern Ireland needs my help because

their own Church with its 1,000,000,000 members the trillions of dollars in assets, then get back to me, Dymaxia, and I'll see what I can do about your challenge:
"You talk about persecution, but you have little to say of the persecution of Catholics in Ireland, strangely enough."

[Rich Hunt]

222. wow, that's really comprehensible.

.


I gather from this murk that you are saying that people who belong to a filthy rich, corrupt church aren't worth your consideration.


And you were a minister at how many churches?

[Dob Bole]

227. Anyone so careless about the situation in Northern Ireland

is not deserving of the title "liberal." Nor of the title "human."

[Tinoire]

235. There's nothing liberal about hate and bigotry.

But peddle it along under some clever, catchy title like "Liberal Like Christ", bank on people not catching on, and then spread it on political web-sites like DU

and

PRESTO

Increase the hate! Help Karl Rove win!

Thank you by the way for your kind thought in starting this thread.

[Liberator_Rev]

184. I point to FACTS. I don't make them "hateful"

You're good at making hateful charges against me, but I challenge you to show any post of mine where "I hate Catholics".

While we're waiting, here's what I think I have done. I have brought to light some little known, but important FACTS. If people find those facts "hateful", deserving of anger, hatred, shame or whatever, it's not because of anything that I did. I'm just the reporter. THEY are the ones you should be mad at for doing them, not me for noticing what they did.

I'm pointing out these problems because they are even MORE IMPORTANT than the pedophilia, and covering them up is no less wrong, and in the long run more disastrous.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

190. So let's see former Dems were segregationists 40 years ago

should we hat the Dems now?

You have taken the history of achurch that has evolved over time but stilll has problems and used it to invalidate its members.

YOu are spreading hatred of a doctrine for your own personal benefit.

What did Jesus say about that? Reverend? I have no doubt about what nees liberating.

[Liberator_Rev]

193. Same goes for you, Nothing....

So long as you want to accuse ME of hatred, nothingshocksmeanymore,
I'll repeat the same challenge I issued to Bob Dole:
You're good at making hateful charges against me, but I challenge you to show any post of mine where "I hate Catholics".

While we're waiting, here's what I think I have done. I have brought to light some little known, but important FACTS. If people find those facts "hateful", deserving of anger, hatred, shame or whatever, it's not because of anything that I did. I'm just the reporter. THEY are the ones you should be mad at for doing them, not me for noticing what they did.

I'm pointing out these problems because they are even MORE IMPORTANT than the pedophilia, and covering them up is no less wrong, and in the long run more disastrous.

As for your question "So let's see former Dems were segregationists 40 years ago" should we hate the Dems now? you would have a point IF The Dems had always claimed to be God's ONE AND ONLY TRUE & UNIVERSAL Church, AND if it were continuing their support of slavery NOW, while denying that they had even engaged in it in the past.
The Catholic hierarchy is at this very moment doing all it can to perpetuate the persecution of gays, not just within its own walls - which is its own business - but BEYOND ITS WALLS, which I question whether you call that HATRED on my part or not. And the same is true of birth-control and abortion, not to mention efforts by the Catholic Church to support Republicans in their efforts to get education vouchers enacted which will benefit Catholic schools and decimate public schools.

None of that being the case, you comparison isn't worth the bandwidth that it is using!

[Dob Bole]

195. Well, since you made the challenge...

I should point out that I didn't say you hated anyone. The "I don't hate the Catholics, I just hate that which is Catholic" statement was meant to draw an analogy with Jerry Falwell's "I don't hate the sinner, just the sin" analogy.

The point: you are both moralists.

Falwell says that conservatism is Christianity and that Christianity is conservatism. You say that, no, liberalism is Christianity and Christianity is liberalism. I say both are wrong, and that Christianity is neither.

While your formula of "do the opposite of the religious right" is very well-intentioned, I cannot agree with it, because Christianity is simply a lifestyle whereby you "love your neighbor as yourself."

Whether it be "cut taxes for the rich as you would yourself" or "raise taxes on the rich as you would yourself," you cannot say that either option is specifically "Christian," because to do so is fundamentalism.

Christianity is not a dissertation on the role of government. It is simple: "Love your neighbor." People may manifest that in whatever way they wish, with or without your website.

[Liberator_Rev]

207. Bob, you've AVOIDED the challenge, which was

"I challenge you to show any post of mine where "I hate Catholics".
Your response:<<I should point out that I didn't say you hated anyone. The "I don't hate the Catholics, I just hate that which is Catholic" statement was meant to draw an analogy with Jerry Falwell's "I don't hate the sinner, just the sin" analogy.>>

I can't show what you actually said, because your prior post that I was responding to has been taken down, but you are hopelessly confused in trying to compare me to Fundamentalists. I'm not saying anything like the Fundamentalist homophobes INCLUDING YOUR OWN CATHOLIC HIERARCHY who say, "While we HATE the sin (i.e. homosexual behavior), we LOVE the sinners (homosexuals, so long as they don't ACT like homosexuals.)

My approach is TOTALLY DIFFERENT and that's precisely why you Conservatives are so furious with me. In CONTRAST to the way that that Fundies and your hierarchy behave (as I outlined above), what I am saying is that I have no respect for clergy who claim to be God's only true representatives (who correspond to "sinners" above), when the record shows that they have proven themselves unworthy of making such claims (which corresponds to "the sin" above).

I think this presentation is clear enough for anyone who WANTS TO UNDERSTAND to do so.

If you want to see more comparison between YOUR hierarchy and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, just continue that line of attack against me! In case you hadn't noticed, I'm not a great follower of "Turn the other cheek", which REALLY bugs the hell out of my critics. Sorry about that. NOT !
See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist for more.

[Rich Hunt]

224. we're not conservatives

In fact, I don't call myself a "liberal" - I call myself an outright leftist.

Some of us are not even Catholics, including the person to whom you're responding.

Is it that unfathomable that liberals and people even further to the left, people who aren't even Catholics, might disagree with you?

It's not "his" hierarchy.

Do have enough respect to READ.

[Tinoire]

233. Snake-Peddling again?

What part of Separation of Church and State at DU did you miss?

What are you doing peddling your snake-oil on a political web-site where most members try to avoid personal attacks on religions and personal attacks on other members based on religion?

What are you doing on a political web-site spreading your hate?

Your tactic to use DU to win converts to your particular brand of Catholic-hating religious beliefs is DESPICABLE.

We already have enough problems based on political beliefs and all you can do as a crypro-Man of Christ is come make it worse at a time when most of us are trying to band together for the next elections?

Yeah... More snake oil and hate from the good reverend, ex-Catholic seminarian, with his agenda of getting even with the Church.

----
Nice little tid-bit about the word fraud
Middle English fraude, from Old French, from Latin fraus, fraud-.

Non serviam. Non serviam.

[dwckabal]

210. Well said, Dob

Too many people in this thread are equating religion and politics. I believe that that fundamental mistake is the major casue for most of the problems that we face today as a nation. Religion is so fundamentally ingrained in the American psyche that most people grow up believing that one's political stance is determined by their religious beliefs. But as children we are taught not to question the authority of the church, so instead we tend to conform our political beliefs around our religious beliefs.

The converse of your statement should hold as well: "Government is not a dissertation on the role of Christianity" (or any other religion, for that matter).

A moral person should maintain their morals in all aspects of their life. If your politics are immoral, but you go to church on a regular basis, you cannot claim the moral high road, no matter how much of a Christian you claim to be.

Remember, Jesus made it a point to hang out with the outcasts, the low lifes, the unwanted. I think that instead of "love thy neighbor", a true Chritian's motto should be "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

[ElsewheresDaughter]

201. the seven woes

>you would have a point IF The Dems had always claimed to be God's ONE AND ONLY TRUE & UNIVERSAL Church, AND if it were continuing their support of slavery NOW, while denying that they had even engaged in it in the past.<


Rev the catholic doesn't claim to be"The One And Only" and i recall mother teresa saying, "if you are a buddist, be the best buddist that you can be and if you are a muslim be the best muslim that you can be. For God has many names... and they are ALL GOOD"

arrogance is not very Christ like

Catholic means "Universal" it simply means that the Mass/Liturgy (that is the Gospel readings and message contained in the Mass is the same on that day all over the world...no matter what country we travel to and no matter what the language, we can celibrate Christ with others because it is Universal we know what is being said and done because it is the same thing being said back home.

the catholic church and the Pope has been a part of many many interfaith worship and celibrations of God with of many faiths.

people who claim to KNOW everything and who claim to have the TRUTH about such wonderfully mystical things are to be avoided .....run away from them as fast as your wretched soul will carry you.

and the catholic church does not deny its past sins...and has asked forgiveness for them. i pray that your liberal fundie heart is not as waxed cold as it appears to be by your venemious anti-catholic posts

this thread takes too long to open...it is way to long and i won't be back...pax

[Blue_Chill]

234. You don't post 'i hate catholics'

but you warp facts to demonize the church and take cheap shots. Being that someone that is feels nothing for or against something wouldn't do that, I can only draw the conclusion that you dislike the church. Being that you show up in threads attmepting to make peace to throw more gas on the flames I must conclude that your dislike is intense.

Intense dislike = hate

[Rich Hunt]

223. good argument

Thanks for pointing that out.

At the same time, I think the party's patrician roots may have a bit to do with some of the prejudice and ignorance displayed on this thread.

[CHIMO]

206. Shouting Out

Haven't read all the threads, they are over 200 now, but why worry about the politicians? When you get down to basics the Catholic Church (Roman Catholic sic) teaches that one is answerable to their own conscience. No matter what the religious politicans want to push on one.
They will conform to theology when the money stops comming in.
Instead of fighting a religion, be confident in one's own philosophy and let them wonder until they want your opinion. It is your life and you only have one go at it!
There are a lot of theology experts who have been pushed aside by the present rulers. Bide your time and live your life as you deem it shoukd be.
Eventually the truth will out.

[Junkdrawer]

225. As a recovering Catholic, this exchange from "The Family Man"..

sums it up pretty well..

Peter: Yeah, I'm looking for toilet training books.

Salesman:Oh yes. I can help you there. "Everybody poops" is still the standard of course and then we have the less popular "Nobody poops but you".

Peter: Ahh. See were Catholic so ahh..

Salesman: Oh so you'll want "You're a naughty child and that's concentrated evil coming out of the back of you."

Peter: Perfect.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

236. junkdrawer..i was raised catholic and spent 7 years in a catholic orphange

from the age of 9 to 18...before i ended up in the holy rosery childrens home in miami, i went to catholic schools along with my 10 sibblings and i have never had nor has anyone i have ever known had any bad experiences with the catholic church. THEY DO NOT TEACH THAT TAKING A SHIT IS EVIL!!! AND I AM SICK TO TEARS OF THE CATHOLIC BASHING GOING ON HERE... how many posters here were educated in the catholic schools or rather molested in them, please i would like to know? only those that have have a right to comment imho

and in those first 18 years of my young life i have never met anyone who was sexually or mentally abused by memebers of the catholic church.( and i'm not saying that it hasn't happened we all know it has, so please no flames) believe me you me i would know...you see in the orphange we kids were as close as anyone can be...we(the kids) ate, slept,laughed and cried together 24/7...and talked about everything good and bad that had happened to us in life...not one ever was treated poorly nor told "we would burn in hell for masturbating or taking a shit!"

the nuns and priests were the most loving and caring people i have ever met....they treated us kids with tenderness and nuturing love...not abuse ...my heart hurts for those that have been...but it is not as rampit as the media and repuke fundies have would like us to believe....they needed to attack the church to discredit it because of all the social justice and peace activism in it...PNAC had this planned from day one and knew that it had to silence the catholic church before PNAC could do its evil work

[Junkdrawer]

237. It's good to hear you had a good experience with the Catholic...

Church. I (and many people I grew up with) did not. This was in a small mill town in the 50s and early 60s. The Family Guy joke was just that, a joke. However, I endured many sermons where masterbation was derided as a terrible sin - and I think the joke's humor originates there.

[ButterflyBlood]

238. It was a joke

however as the RCC does say that masturbation is a mortal sin, that's enough reason for me to leave it as far as I'm concerned.

[Tinoire]

231. This was a NICE Idea. TOO BAD THE BIGOTS & SNAKE-PEDDLERS

turned your kind thread into a cess-poll.

Anti-Catholic bigotry is alive and well at DU.

It's so sad to see the right-wing agenda of destroying the Churches that have spoken out against this administration and the war making such progress and RIGHT HERE at DU!

The hate is so strong. But what else is new?

[Liberator_Rev]

242. In response to your question to me, Merlin, in post #194 :

... "I think what can be challenged effectively--and maybe even what is most worthy of challenge--is the Vatican itself, its anti-democratic structure, its inner power struggles, it's phony claims to divine guidance. It might be possible that these can be criticized constructively without unduly offending most Catholics.

What do you think?

There must be some way to stimulate change in the Catholic Church. God knows it's needed."
I'm sorry I didn't notice this when you posted it, Merlin, but I had actually answered that question in post 182, if I'm not mistaken. I think you are absolutely right, but I'm surprised at how conservative the defenders of the Papacy are here at DU, and how unwilling they are to face plain incontrovertable facts about the Vatican, and unwilling to join Liberals everywhere in opposing its ultra-conservatism.

It's amazing that Bob Dole isn't even a Catholic (yet), and Dymaxia is no longer one, but apparently thinks that his current atheism makes him/her an authority on Christianity. But I guess that ignorance of Catholic history is an asset for anyone attempting to defend the papacy.