Not entirely convinced Bush was AWOL. Part 2. No mention of Candidates

[45th Med]

Until I see documents from the Alabama ANG, I can't commit to calling Bush AWOL. I have mentioned it a few times, but I have not been convinced by the documents provided by www.awolbush.com . Prove it to me that Bush was AWOL. Show me proof, don't just start namecalling

The US Military does not give Honorable Discharges to Airmen who are AWOL for a whole year. It was reported that workers with the Senate Campaign that Bush worked on in Alabama knew of Bush leaving for the weekend to perform his duty. I'm sure most of you know, National Guard members report for duty once a month so did he miss all 12 duty cycles?

I am aware of documents that point to the fact that Bush may have missed some weekend drills and he was administratively reprimanded for that. This document shows that Bush missed 35 days in his career.....that is not AWOL for a full year in any case.

All I am asking for is PROOF that Bush was AWOL for a year and never reported to his temporary assignment. I'll be convinced then.

[Bunny]

1. I think you're still in the wrong forum.

n/t

[45th Med]

2. To Cronus:

I am aware of a document that says Bush was assigned to ORS in Denver, CO as punishment for his absenteeism.

[45th Med]

6. BTW, at least I'm producing documents.....

your debating skills need brushing up. Can you counter with documents, please?

[pocoloco]

11. "Cold Weather Training"???

How funny! Wonder if he got out of this also??

[Thistle42]

3. If he had really finished his Air National Guard

duty, there would not be all these questions about his service. If there was proof that he DID it would be out here for all to see. Sorry, this time I'm from Missouri..."SHOW ME!"

[45th Med]

7. There is no dispute that Bush completed his obligations......

however, he was pretty casual about his attendence. That he did not SATISFACTORILY complete his duty is different from actually completing it.

[BeFree]

26. Actually completed...

What do you mean by "Actually completing it"?

Just because he lived that long doesn't mean he actaully completed anything. What did he do in Alabama? Where are the records of him doing anything related the the Guard in Alabama? Seems as if he were absent.

There is no record of him completing his obligation in Alabama, is there? So how can you say he actually completed his obligation. You have no proof.

[45th Med]

32. He was HONORABLY DISCHARGED.

That constitutes completion, doesn't it?

[BeFree]

44. You said 'actually'

From the knowledge gained over the years, surely you must know that 'things' can be arranged. Careers threatened or embellished. It's "Who you know" that can get certain things done in a certain way.

The * family has connections. Do you think for one second that Poppy would not do everything he could to see to it that his 'good' name would ever hinder his rise to the top?

That explains that singular piece of paper with an Honorable Discharge.

There is no proof that he 'actually completed his obligation', as you wrote. There are no records of him for a year while in service.

I just read the entire BOSSHOG thread. No one in that thread served without the service not knowing where he or she was for their entire time in the service. Why do you give * a pass?

[45th Med]

51. I understand this.

Of course, people in high places will try to get things to go their way. My father was an Army Colonel, I wanted to goto West Point more than anything in this world. I guess my dad didn't have enough pull to get me an appointment although I met all the criteria.

That didn't stop me from enlisting, I'm sure my father's influence helped me get a duty station in Germany as a Flight Medic with his old unit.

I'm not saying Bush didn't deserve an Honorable but he completed his obligations.....although unsatisfactorily. All I know is that there are very pertinent documents missing that don't explain the whole story and that is where I have a problem....same as many of you.

It's hard to serve in a public position, under immense scrutiny. I certainly wouldn't want, no matter how well I did in the military, to have my 214 out there. I'm sure the Democratic candidates who served would want theirs out there either.

I am just trying to understand why some here prefer to take the moral low-ground and insist on making accusations without proof. This isn't what our men and women (past, present and future) serve our country for.

[BeFree]

63. You answered your own question, Sir

Quote:
I am just trying to understand why some here prefer to take the moral low-ground and insist on making accusations without proof. This isn't what our men and women (past, present and future) serve our country for.

"Making accusations without proof" Well, that's it!!

This * has made accusations without proof, right?. He has taken the moral low-ground while serving as CIC. My God, man, can't you see that?

We are but privates to him and his ilk, and he the emperor. How the hell do you fight an emperor? Any way you can.

This battle is not one we designed, or manufactured out of thin air. The service records are just tools we make use of to find Justice. He deserves Justice, and we will bring it to him, one way or another. This business is just one of the ways, and it just might prove to be the best.

Wish us luck!

[45th Med]

His service might be COMPLETELY RELEVENT.....

and it could be just as irrelevent, or it could just be that we are distracting ourselves with something that has no meaning in the upcoming election.

I'm still with you bro. I'm on your side but when my conscience says to ask questions.....well, I ask them and I seek answers no matter what it might be.

I value all the input on this thread and YES, it helps me by asking the questions that are bugging me and maybe even answering my own questions and it helps me move my position even more LEFT.

I might not like the CINC. I might not like the Republican administration but I don't hate Republicans for their own blind ignorance....hell, many are even coming around to dislike Bush now after this CLUSTERFUCK he's gotten us into. One thing is for certain. I LOVE MY COUNTRY and I LOVE everything it stands for.....in the good AND bad. And I'm here to fight on your side, for our own future generations.

[BeFree]

72. Very good, except

We should all love our country for the good things it stands for, but when it's leaders try to make the bad things commonplace, then it's time to stand up and demand change.

I hope your involvement on this board continues to broaden your view, and helps you down your newfound path. America needs every one of it's good citizens to become educated and informed if America is going to continue to be the beacon of Liberty and Justice to the rest of the world.

[oasis]

4. Produce the roster w/ the checkmarks. He's assigned to the 'Bama guard?

[45th Med]

5. RE: 1973 days credited document

If you read look at the far left of this document it has a W, for Walker, the left half of the page was torn off. Compare these two.

[amber dog democrat]

8. Show me proof he was NOT a deserter.

It should not be very hard to do.
Even now I can find people who could attest to my wherabouts when I was in the military.
I think there HAS to be some basis to these claims.

[KoKo]

9. Some DU'ers have photcopies of all this stuff.......hopefully they will

post with their files. This has been documented over and over on DU. Problem is that one of the Commanding Officers in charge of the info on the Bush record in ANG is a Bush buddy and got a job and had some of the info scrubbed so there are holes in the documentation.

So, believe what you want...but having been here on DU and read through the last two years new info posted on Bush's AWOL and the connections his family had to getting stuff scrubbed, one would have to be convinced as I was.

I post this to you hoping you are sincere in your quest and not just one of those folks from that other site...here to stir up things. :D

[45th Med]

12. Only other website I visit is AR15.com

only because I'm an owner of several AR15 rifles and only occasionally need help with problems. I never even visit anymore cause it's so damn slow.

I just can't commit to calling Bush AWOL or a deserter.....a word highly looked down upon by Vets.

BTW, this document is the one that says to me that there is still confusion about what exactly being AWOL means.

[Thistle42]

14. As a Vietnam Veteran....

I am not impressed with the vagueness of the documents. IF he had finished honorably, we would know. I am sick of hearing from the Right Wing about how wrong it is to pronounce Bush AWOL or a deserter. He served in the ANG because his daddy got him there.

[45th Med]

15. He was HONORABLY DISCHARGED.

How do you feel about Clinton dodging the draft while you (as well as my Father and Uncle and thousands of others) went off to Vietnam?

[djg21]

19. Dodging the draft?

Check your facts. He had a high draft number, and he certainly voiced his conscience by protesting against the war. That does not make him a "draft dodger."

That being said, I far more respect a person who acts on his/her sincerest beliefs regarding what's best for the country
than I do one who has only his/her own preservation and self-interests in mind.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

Ignore...

Pressed "Post message twice"

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

22. Why did you bring up Clinton?

Why not Cheney?
Limbaugh?
DeLay?
Lott?
O'Reilly?
Ashcroft?
Wolfowitz?
Hastert?
Gingrich?

Why did you bring up Clinton?
I have to agree with the above poster. I think you're in the wrong forum.

[Terwilliger]

23. Clinton didn't want to go to the war

that's VERY different from conservatives and Republicans who avoid real service ESPECIALLY considering how hawkish they are.

So, yes, Clinton's "draft dodging" was above-board and up front. Bush's draft-dodging was hypocritical and cynical.

[alcuno]

24. Clinton dodged the draft? Nope. He was in the draft.

My understanding was that he was in fact in the draft and drew a high number. That's not draft dodging. Draft dodging is when you use other means to avoid ever getting a number in the first place. I find Clinton's opposition to the Vietnam War much more noble than using your father's influence to propel you to the top of a guard unit list.

I think that AWOL is a military term and it has not been used correctly by civilians. However, there are gaps in his service and neither the RNC nor * have cleared up the matter. I believe that they could put this to rest tomorrow if they wanted to; they can't.

[mike1963]

25. May I ask why you are here at DU defending an asshole?

What is the purpose?

[SalParadise]

28. why?

Devil's advocate, mayhaps?

[Beaker]

29. nevermind the AWOL for now- let's go back to the beginning?

what about Jr. leap-frogging past over 500 people on the TANG waiting list? and then being allowed into flight school with no prior officer training(ROTC) & with the lowest possible score(what a coincidence...that he would get the exact score that is the minimum requirement) allowed to get into the program...training to fly obsolete jets that would never get him called up for vietnam duty?

that's all documented stuff- and none of that bothers you?

[Catherine Vincent]

30. I knew it wouldn't be too long before Clinton was brought into this.

Bush went AWOL. DEAL WITH IT!

[45th Med]

33. Clinton was asked by his country to serve her, he refused.

DEAL WITH THAT.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. Clinton registered for the draft-how is that a refusal?

:freak:

[alcuno]

41. You're just clouding the issue with facts.

45th Med isn't interested in the fact that Clinton registered and received a high draft number. It's called the luck of the draw, not refusal.

[45th Med]

46. We all have hard choices to make in life....

and we all live by those choices. I respect that Clinton made up for his choice not to serve this country in war but he made up for it by his service in other ways including POTUS. I would, however, put Clinton in the same category as Bush, they both found ways to avoid going to war. War is not a nice thing, it isn't always for the right cause......like the War in Iraq.

The question is, if you were called up by the draft to serve in Iraq, would you go and do your duty?

[Lars39]

47. Clinton drew a high number that was never called up.

Putting him in the same category as bush is wrong.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

Don't let your mind be clouded by facts

He registered and got a high number. That is NOT the same as desertion.

[45th Med]

52. How can you accuse * of desertion?

That is a terrible charge to make. He still served. We all have/had our part to perform. I just can't commit to charging Bush with AWOL or Desertion, my morals and conscience won't permit me to until I see proof and then I would be able to scream it from the rooftops.

[Terwilliger]

48. You're talking about duty after this last war?

Duty is to protect and serve and do the right thing for America by your actions. Not just following orders.

Just following orders didn't work too well at Nuremburg.

[45th Med]

53. Under UCMJ.....

we are not robots. We have a right to refuse unlawful orders and the kids who do the wrong thing do not understand this. War is a crazy and confusing thing and it takes real men and women to understand their obligations to duty, honor and country.

[Terwilliger]

61. Granted

Now, Bill Clinton got out of going into the military. That's terrible...HORRIBLE. I mean, I see what he was saying and I don't have the same problem you do in his decision, etc.

HOWEVER, you're all about forgiving Bush for the most egregious hypocrisy. He and his ilk should be the first ones to go to war and stand behind the principles they claim. For Repukes and hawks to KNOWINGLY AVOID SERVICE TO THEIR COUNTRY should be beyond reprehensible.

All you can seem to say is "he got an honorable discharge!" Yes...he also got a pass on entering the air-guard unit (with the lowest possible score you can have while still qualifying) and his father became head of the CIA within a few years. I'm sure it's ALL just coincidence.

[45th Med]

65. I'm not apologizing for anybody. I just want to help....

clearing this up in MY OWN MIND.

No need to mention the other Chickenhawks, I despise them. All I can do with Bush is to look at the documents that are presented in the public domain and base my point of view on those FACTS.....not allegations or accusations.

See what I'm saying? No matter what the outcome of this thread, I am still a Democrat. I am still voting with the intention of getting Bush out of office like Poppa Bush.

As a Vet, I still look upon those who serve in uniform with deep respect, regardless of political affiliation.

There's no such thing as coincidence in this world, I'm sure that's what you are trying to say in your last statement and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

:D

[alcuno]

54. Being a part of the draft is not a refusal to serve.

It was a lottery and he didn't get picked; that's not a refusal. Clinton took a roll of the dice and * was given a sure thing. They are not in the same category since Clinton had to take a risk and * did not.

I don't know what a draft for Iraq has to do with your contention.

[45th Med]

75. Sorry it took so long to reply, Rose.

From my POV, the simple fact that Clinton didn't put the uniform on and serve in Vietnam (or in the Reserves/Guard) is all I can provide as a response. My friends and I talked alot about this in the military, many of my friends are Democrats and STILL didn't respect Clinton as our CINC. It has nothing to do with heroism or bravery. When we put our collective a$$es on the line, we want a man/woman who has had trigger time to lead us into war, otherwise we tend to feel like the CINC doesn't know the kind of position he puts us in. Does that make sense?

Even Gore served in Nam. I voted for Gore, no matter how goofy he looked while he bent over his M16 rifle and muzzle swept his own head....lol. Electability in peacetime is different than electability in time of war. We need a man like....YOU KNOW WHO to get us out of this foreign AND domestic mess.

[Terwilliger]

38. apparently, you haven't

Again...isn't it more important that hawkish conservative types who talk about glory and security and the flag, rah rah rah...shouldn't THEY be held to a higher standard?

[BeachBuckeye]

42. Got any proof of that?

I say he was NOT asked.

[Catherine Vincent]

49. That's a lie!

Clinton has never refused service to a female!

[45th Med]

73. lol. I know what you are saying.....

and you know what I mean. I mean no disrespect in my previous reply, I was looking for more a substantive and I apologize for being snappy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. Still waiting for the "ASKED" evidence

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[DemoTex]

58. Knowing what I know now ...

I would have gone to Canada. That's worse than what Clinton did. Clinton registered and avoided. Smart! Many went to Canada, evading. Smart, after the Carter amnesty. Then there were the deserters, AWOLS, and otherwise no-shows. Bad form. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO COULDN'T PLAY THE GUARD GAME WHEN THEY BROKE THE FUCKING RULES, THANKS TO DADDY, TO GET IN IN THE FIRST PLACE!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Go to factcheck.org

and you'll see a thread about Bush's military service. According to them, he was discharged 8 months early in order to attend Harvard. He was honorably discharged.

He wasn't AWOL, though apparently he missed, and made up, some weekends. However, I wonder about his devotion to duty. He knew how long his service to the Guard was to be. Why didn't he wait to end his commitment to go back to school? How many others in the same time were given this type of early discharge? It seems to me if someone volunteers for the Guard, he should fulfill his obligation unless there is a real dire need (illness, for example). Sorry, but getting a graduate degree doesn't strike me as a dire need.

[dennis4868]

36. he was discharged 8 months early

that was after he was AWOL for a year (1972-1973).....

[thebaghwan]

84. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. I was dischrged 8 months early in

1969. Supposedly there were too many people in the USAF. The reason why he was discharged early may be of interest, but not just the fact that he was.

[0007]

10. ((((((((((Bong))))))))))

[rog]

13. Martin Heldt has done the homework

From the annotated article, linked to supporting docs:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

On May 24, 1972, Bush had applied for a transfer from the Texas Air National Guard to Montgomery, Alabama. On his transfer request Bush noted that he was seeking a "no pay" position with the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron. The commanding officer of the Montgomery unit, Lieutenant Colonel Reese R. Bricken, promptly accepted Bush's request to do temporary duty under his command.

But Bush never received orders for the 9921st in Alabama. Such decisions were under the jurisdiction of the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, Colorado, and the Center disallowed the transfer. The Director of Personnel Resources at the Denver headquarters noted in his rejection that Bush had a "Military Service Obligation until 26 May 1974." As an "obligated reservist," Bush was ineligible to serve his time in what amounted to a paper unit with few responsibilities. As the unit's leader, Lieutenant Colonel Bricken recently explained to the Boston Globe, ''We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing.''

The headquarters document rejecting Bush's requested Alabama transfer was dated May 31, 1972. This transfer refusal left Bush still obligated to attend drills with his regular unit, the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron stationed at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston. However, Bush had already left Texas two weeks earlier and was now working on Winton Blount's campaign staff in Alabama.

In his annual evaluation report, Bush's two supervising officers, Lieutenant Colonel William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, made it clear that Bush had "not been observed at" his Texas unit "during the period of report" -- the twelve month period from May 1972 through the end of April 1973.

In the comments section of this evaluation report Lieutenant Colonel Harris notes that Bush had "cleared this base on 15 May 1972, and has been performing equivalent training in a non flying role with the 187th Tac Recon Gp at Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama" (the Air National Guard Tactical Reconnaissance Group at Dannelly Air Force Base near Montgomery, Alabama).

This was incorrect. Bush didn't apply for duty at Dannelly Air Force Base until September 1972. From May until September he was in limbo, his temporary orders having been rejected. And when his orders to appear at Dannelly came through he still didn't appear. Although his instructions clearly directed Bush to report to Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed on the dates of "7-8 October 0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600," he never did. In interviews conducted with the Boston Globe earlier this year, both General Turnipseed and his former administration officer, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth Lott, said that Bush never put in an appearance.

etc.

.rog.

[0007]

17. This Korean war vet can say junior (Fake Commander in Chief)

Was AWOL and maybe a deserter.

Can't junior stand on his own two feet and face the nation and show us the records to clear this terrible charge. Hell no! cuz he'd booked a looser.

"Bring 'em on"

[BeFree]

18. Thanks, rog

That's about what I've been reading. Good enough for this ol' boy.

AWOL

[SalParadise]

27. Don't you love the White House response to all of this

...McClellan said "these kinds of attacks have no place in politics and everyone should condemn them."

How long before they start calling people who are questioning this "un-American"?

Puh-leeze - McClellan, what you're sellin' I ain't buyin'.

The un-indoctrinated in this country won't fall for this crap.

(i hope.)

[LanternWaste]

20. The burden of proof lies with him...

In my opinion, it is encumbent upon *Bush to prove that he was not AWOL. All he has to do is completely open up his service records to public scrutiny and the questions will end.

If there is nothing to hide, examination of these records will force an endgame to the topic.

He won't do it, though.

[Terwilliger]

21. Ask Bush

When he answers get back to us.

[Beaker]

31. at the end of the war- lots of honorable discharges were given

to lots of part-time National Guardsmen who hadn't really shown up in a while- they were trying to whittle down the numbers by then anyway.

Dumbya's last duty station or two weren't even at units with planes, or that actually met.

[PsN2Wind]

34. It's been a long time since I served but,

my recollection is that an absence 48 or less hours was UA (unauthorized absence), after 48 hours it was AWOL ( absent without leave), after thirty days you were considered a deserter and labeled as such. I believe though that the standard to prove desertion was absence and the INTENT not return to duty. If I am correct that would make Bush AWOL.
You should check your math though. If Bush missed his two weeks of active duty and his weekends for the other 11 months of the year, that would be 14 days plus 22 days = 36 days. So the 35 days you state are just about a damn year. And that supposes that he was only considered AWOL on those actual calender days he missed and Not AWOL from his first time not reporting for duty until finally reporting again.

[Terwilliger]

39. I'd like to know

why the original poster doesn't read your post and respond to it

[PsN2Wind]

45. I'm sure he's preparing

another snappy answer such as "he was honorably discharged".

Some of us tend to think that if someones Daddy was a congressman, UN Ambassador, Chairman of the RNC, Liaison to China, Director of the CIA, VP then Prez, that at some point the opportunity to scrub said persons record, civilian AND military, might have presented itself.

[leanings]

59. The short answer

is that you have to be DECLARED AWOL by command authority and the charge of desertion is a prosecutorial finding.

Duty days in the Guard are the days on which MTU's are scheduled, i.e. the actual training weekends and summer camp. Days in between are not considered duty days. I'd imagine if he had been declared a deserter, they may have counted against him, but that's just a guess.

My question is this; were the 35 total days missed all in the same year and were they ever made up? I know during my time in the Guard I missed 4 days; one weekend due to a car accident and the other through prearrangement. I "split trained" to make up for most of that time, coming in on unscheduled days and evenings.

There's a visceral reaction on this board to any perceived defense of Bush. Well, I think a poster in the original thread had it right; focus on the economy and security. This issue does not have legs, is at best contentious under scrutiny, and we do a disservice to ourselves and to the nation as a whole by harping on shit like this when there are so many other important things to take up. Bush was not a deserter by any stretch of the imagination and was not technically AWOL at any point. That's it. Yes, he was shifty, manipulative, irresponsible and used power and access to pull strings. Those are character traits that we can demonstrate to the public at large without having to sort through this murky crap. He certainly wasn't alone in doing what he could to avoid going to Vietnam, either.

That's my .02, anyhow.

[Terwilliger]

64. Once again...why shouldn't we look at this?

If Kerry had the same record that Bush did, THERE WOULD BE NUCLEAR MELTDOWNS.

To simply avoid this shows the Democrats to be pandering simps who can't seem to stand up and be counted for anything.

[PsN2Wind]

66. As I said in my post

I didn't know if days that weren't duty days would be counted. However I do know that had I gone over the hill while in the Navy and we had four section duty, meaning every fourth weekend you had duty. with the other three off-duty, those off-duty days would have been counted along with the duty days. But then the Guard is different. Actually so different that 35 days almost equals one Guard year.

[45th Med]

69. a follow up to your question.

I believe this document show's that Bush was assigned to Administrative reassignmnet to an ORS detail in Denver, CO......ie make up days and reprimand/punishment.

[45th Med]

62. The Guard is MUCH different and not subject to UCMJ

There are different terms of service. Sometimes twice a month, sometimes once a month. The document of his attendance is something new that I've seen that moves me in the direction that he did not perform his duty. But there is the document that shows that he was administratively reprimanded and performed ORS in Denver, Colorado to make up for his absenteeism.

I'm just not going to commit to a charge of desertion or AWOL without seeing those missing documents from Alabama. I still don't like Bush. I didn't vote for him last time around and I'm not going to this time. I am just trying to look at the other side of the issue and come to terms with it in my own mind so I can make my own decision and proceed from there.

[bpilgrim]

67. sometimes a whole year... da bush DOCTRINE

NH Army Guard unit called to duty once again
http://www.seacoastonline.com/2003news/12012003/news/c.htm

peace

[rog]

71. See post number 13

I'd really like to hear your response to that ANNOTATED and LINKED article by Marty Heldt. Otherwise I'm getting the feeling that you're talking just to hear your own voice.

Plenty of documents there, obtained under the Freedom Of Information Act.

Thank you very much.

.rog.

[45th Med]

77. I am studying it carefully. Alot of relevant points, alot of conjecture.

The last statement is interesting, he is admitting that Bush made up the time in ORS. This is not uncommon at all.

Bush may have finally "made-up" his missed days. But he did so not by attending drills -- in fact he never attended drills again after he enrolled at Harvard. Instead, he had his name added to the roster of a paper unit in Denver, Colorado, a paper unit where he had no responsibility to show up and do a job.

[Frank Rose]

35. Don't worry, I'm sure they started...

printing-I mean looking for the service records as soon as the media started showing real intrest in this story.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. Link to Shrub's Work on the Blount campaign

This is what he did when he was AWOL:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1083153#1083262

[0007]

56. I'd say the AWOL part is true

but I believe the rest is cover for his cocaine arrested and community service that daddy got for junior and bought a judge to expunge it from the record.

[bpilgrim]

43. "The US Military does not give..." to a regular dogFace, sure

but we aren't talk'n bout a regular grunt now r we... how you think he got into the TANG?

i am sure you have heard of 'pulling strings' right?

thats what it looks like from here, considering the evidence presented so far.

:hi:

peace

[45th Med]

55. Yes, I have addressed this....see above.

nt

[0007]

57. Post number please!

[45th Med]

68. #51

Thanks for you kind response.

[bpilgrim]

60. oh, really...

and you claim he was a regular joe?

if not, than i think the point remains.

now... do you provide any proof that answers the question beyond all the reasonable DOUBTS raised by this evidence vs no explaination to the gapping hole in his record and no one cept one connected soul to back up his side of the 'story'?

when i served it wasn't with an 'army of 1' and have plenty of folks who know where i was... shoot i still keep in touch with some.

peace

[45th Med]

70. Bush's DD214

[Robbien]

74. So you believe Bush is an honorable service man

According to his own statements, he was a complete and total drunk up until he was saved and got religion several years ago. But a falling down drunk while in service but with a rich daddy who was able to get him an honorable discharge (you are the one who provided the bought and paid for document) is someone you admire.

You have a much much lower standard of honor than I have.

[45th Med]

76. Nice of you to speak for me. Thanks but I can speak for myself.

I have NEVER said Bush was honorable or otherwise. I don't appreciate this kind of ignorant and abrasive response. My standards of honor are MUCH higher than your percieved standards of honor, this is why I am asking questions and not blindly following the crowd. My standards of ethics and honor are based on 2 seperate oaths I took. First and formost is duty, honor, country and the 2nd is do no harm.

If you review my post history, admiration for Bush is absolutely nothing I have for the man and your statement borders on a COC violation. I would appreciate it if you would just keep your own thoughts to yourself. Thanks.

[thebaghwan]

78. 45th Med. What is your understanding of the term "in Federal service" as

used in the UCMJ.

[45th Med]

80. In what context?

In the Guard you are under state service, to be court martialed a member of the Guard must be activated to federal service with the consent of the state for a period not to exceed the time it takes for a trial to take place.

Sorry, I would like more clarification of your question for me to answer.

[thebaghwan]

83. In the context of who the UCMJ applies to. As you probably know the UCMJ

says it does not apply to the National Guard unless they are "in Federal service". Now, I am a paralegal (and not an expert on military law) but the first thing we would want to know is what does that phrase mean and did it apply to the unit Bush was in. Now somebody, maybe it was you posted some possible Texas legislation, but I take exception to it applying to Bush's situation as it went into effect in 1987. Therefore ex post facto applies. The only other thing to consider would be texas law in 1972. From a strictly legal perspective, there may be some question whether Bush was AWOL within the definition of the applicable law at the time. Needless to say, if the issue ever got down to this granularity Bush's ass would be already well cooked.

[Rebellious Republican]

79. Do not flame me, but here is what the freepers are posted as a

defense for Shrub. They are getting suited up for battle on this cause they know this subject will hurt them. I just posted this as information, just so everyone will know what to expect. By the way is it coincidental that JFK jr. died in a small plane crash tin foil hatters. After all he is no longer around to speak about the source they use as proof of Shrubs innocence in this matter.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071037/posts

[SoCalDem]

81. They cannot win this one.. He has finally pissed off the press

and I think some of them feel like they must atone for their lack of interest in 2000..

Even if some of them are vile self-indulgent slugs, they have families too and they can see the way this country is headed..

I hope that some of them browse our threads here.. There are a lot of interesting links posted and all it takes is for someone to follow the trail and hire some investigators..

This whole thing could blow up in his ugly little face..

[Rebellious Republican]

82. I hope your right SCD, I am ex-military and served my time .........

I have two honorable discharges and amongst numorious awards, citations and medals, included is a Naval Expedtionary Forces medal for support of the Marines in Beirut. I see Shrub for what he really is, a Fortunate Son, the little rat bastard!

[Moderator]

85. Locking

(please don't feed the trolls)