A Question for my Fellow Veterans

[BOSSHOG]

Are there any questions about your attendance record? Are your muster records filled with obfuscation and confusion? Would a Sergeant or a Chief play havoc with your life if you were "in absentia?" How long would it take you to prove that you served honorably? Could you whup out a DD-214 faster than zell miller could lie about being a democrat? - okay, thats a tossup!

My fellow liberals, poke a conservative in the eye with the above scenario. george bush wasn't there. Call it desertion, call it AWOL, all it UA, just CALL IT!!! Call it loud and call it every day until the election. The last thing the white house wants is for you and me to tell the truth about george bush.

CLINTON DID NOT SERVE - BUSH SERVED DISHONORABLY.

[k_blagburn]

1. Vet Here

This vet completely concurs.

[rock]

2. I do indeed carry my dd-214 in my wallet

Skipping duty was a very serious matter with the army.

[truthspeaker]

3. well that's just your fault...

...for not being the son of a wealthy Congressman!

;)

[slackboy]

11. AWOL

As a former Marine who served in RVN I agree with my fellow vets. The bushies are scared shitless. If you were watching CNN this am you witnessed one of dipshits flunkies, name of Eskew, in a severe state of denial. The evidence is there so suck it up chickenhawks.
I dont supppose there is any way we could draft his sorry chicken shit ass now and send him to the Sunni Triangle. Those of us who served honorably know what fate would have awaited us had we been in the reserves and failed to attend mettings.
Lets send the yellow bastard back to Crawford.

[BOSSHOG]

12. WELCOME SLACKBOY

and thank you for your "been there, done that" input. Something we ain't gonna get from the "yellow bastard." UUUUHRAAAAAHHHH!

[Cooley Hurd]

18. I saw Tucker Eskew this morning on CNN too...

Deep, deep denial!!!

They're fucked on this issue (amongst others)...

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[alfredo]

23. No

I want him in Leavenworth prison.

[myrna minx]

31. Welcome to DU, slackboy.

:hi:

[leesa]

83. I think it's a grand idea. He's so very proud of his athletic prowess

I'm sure he'd be a great soldier. How many months does he owe the US?

[rhino47]

84. Welcome to DU Slackboy!

Thanks for your service! :hi: :grouphug:
I agree shrubs awol is a direct insult to those that served
honorably as you have.

[Karenina]

85. The *dauphin is the "slacker."

Thank you for your service. Does it not anger you that the "rules" are "different" for the *dimson?

[Nlighten1]

53. So do I.

I use it for my "other form of ID" if I am ever asked for one.

[Nlighten1]

90. Me too.

I love to show it to the chicken hawks in my office.

[kaitykaity]

4. "But, but, but

(insert squeal here) you defended Clinton for his 'draft-dodging'!!"

What's a good one to counter that ridiculous statement? "Yeah, and you attacked him for it"?

[Redneck Socialist]

9. That's exactly the line...

that my friend (who spent 20 years in the Air Force) uses. He works with a bunch of brain dead pubs, several of which are ex military and he throws that in their faces on a semi regular basis. They were all over Clinton's "draft dodging," but apparently chimpy gets a pass on his actions. Hypocrite thy name is republican.

[Warren Stuart]

21. Clinton did what millions of other young men did

Bush did what only the elite upper one percent could do. The upper one percent? You know the ones who mainly enefitted from Bush's tax cuts for the middle class.

This isn't apples and oranges, this is apples and some kind of livestock.

[Djinn]

50. mine would be on honesty

Clinton never denied buggering off to study in the UK (that was his "draft dodge" wasn't it, sorry not totally au fait with this) but Georgie FIRST got a student deferment and when that was running out (and I guess the ability to go onto further study was somewhat hamstrung what with him having the IQ of a vegetable) jumped ahead of hundreds to get a cushy "out" and didn't even fulfil those requirements.

Bill Clinton WAS where he said he was and WAS doing what he was supposed to ie: studying.

Bill never released a biography claiming that the reason he didn't go to Vietnam was that he "had not logged enough flight hours" to qualify for a combat assignment - LIE. AND "I continued flying with my unit for the next several years." LIE

And Bill never made a stupid comment about having been in a war (still trying to figure out which one that was??) and that raising twins is harder - "I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I
had a choice, I'd rather go to war." Houston Chronicle, January 2002

The story isn't really that he got out of it - plenty did - it's that he has constantly inferred or outright stated that HE HAS BEEN TO WAR and that HE DID COMPLETE HIS DUTIES

[Aristus]

5. I was in the Army Reserve for three years. I was absent from one drill.

And I made it up later. I was active duty for four years, and was honorably discharged. My HD is framed and hung up in a place of honor. And my DD-214 is a source of pride.

[Skittles]

6. NO

An examination of my military records would reveal WHERE I WAS EVERY FREAKING MINUTE OF MY ENLISTMENT. I remember I even had to get my commander's permission to go to England to visit my grandmother when my grandfather passed away. If Bush truly had nothing to hide he'd be yelling CHECK MY MILITARY RECORDS. But he won't because he knows what they show - the SOB was F***ING AWOL.

[tom_paine]

7. Vet here...the answers are:

No.
No.
Yes.
10 minutes.
No. Reason: Zell Miller is an awfully good and fast liar. I'd have to search my pertinent documents to find it first. Zell could whip out TEN LIES in the time it took me to do that.

[Career Prole]

8. Navy vet here...

my DD-214's in the file folder marked "Rick's Important Papers" in my bedroom closet along with my shellback certificate. I can whip it out in 30 minute's time, and I'll take the time off from work to do just that if Bush is willing to do the same...Dubya?:grr:

[x-g.o.p.er]

42. Active Duty guy here....

And if I come out and say that my Commander in Chief was AWOL, I can conceivably be charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) for conduct unbecoming, among other articles. And as pro-Bush as most active duty people are, well, let's just say dissension in the ranks is highly discouraged.

So I'm not saying he was AWOL. But if I could not account for my whereabouts, and I am not on leave..........well, see above about the UCMJ.

But I am not saying he was AWOL. There is an explanation for everything. I just don't have it.

[Demonaut]

66. Hey, what ship were you on?

Did two westpacs, over 4 years on the Connie

[Career Prole]

74. Awright!

I was fixin' radars in F4 PhantomII's on the Ranger in VF-21 for two westpacs. Nice ta meetcha! :toast:

[Demonaut]

75. Photographers mate

we went from the Phantoms to the new F18's, liked the lines of the Phantom better

[Lefta Dissenter]

10. Wife of Vet reporting for duty

3 minutes for the DD214,
8 minutes for evaluations and other reports - and that's only because we'd be distracted by looking at some of the photos and other memorabilia that is in the box with the service records.

edited to add that Wesley Clark has posted all of his documents online for the world to see. It would certainly take this issue off the table for poo' ole bushie if he would do the same!

[Tansy_Gold]

89. Another vet's wife checking in

Hubby's DD-214, draft card, military ID, etc., in large brown envelope marked "Doug's Navy Paperwork" in *MY* filing cabinet in *MY* office. Three feet from where I'm sitting.

He has all kinds of documents, transfer papers, leave papers, stuff I don't even know what it is, but he's got it. As well as photos of shipmates, souvenirs of ports they stopped at, etc.

But * has nothing, huh? Sorry, folks, I ain't buyin' it. . . . .

[DemoTex]

13. DD-214 in the safe deposit box.

I spent four years on active duty and flew over 250 combat missions in Vietnam. I received an Honorable Discharge in April 1972. For about a week in Vietnam, I was DNIF (Duty Not-Including-Flying) due to post-wisdom dental extraction complications (done by a young Army dentist at Nha Trang). That was an excused absence from flying with the blessings of my commanding officer. I worked in mission operations that week with a 100-degree fever.

The press has tapped-danced around Bu$h's specious record in the TANG since 2000. Now that it is moving back to the front burner, will they tap dance around WHY Bu$h missed a year of drills with his Texas unit and failed to report, as ordered, to Lt. Col. Wm. Turnipseed of the Alabama Air National Guard? Will his alcohol and putative drug abuse - reasons I suspect he missed a year of his life - still be taboo subjects to the lap-dog media?

I knew slackers in the military. We all did. But I never, ever, encountered anyone with a record like Bu$h's. That's probably because active duty, non-connected pukes got the brig or Ft. Leavenworth for a whole lot less.

[Bandit]

14. As a vet with 9 days lost duty I know what can and sometimes doesn't

happen. After finishing my first tour of duty in the Nam I received a thirty day leave to the world. I stayed a little longer than my leave permitted but most people were doing the same thing at the time so I didn't think too much of it. In fact it was never even mentioned to me. On my DD214 form all it says is 9 days lost duty. I had to stay an addition nine days after my deros date to make up for it but never received even so much as a reprimand. I did have a very good record until that time so I guess they took that into account. I already had many awards and citations even several with V device. It was not uncommon at the time. The National Guard was an entirely different entity than it is now so am unaware how they treated those things back then. I believe they were more stringent than that. I have a very good friend who spent six years in the Guard and missed his last three meeting and they drafted him and sent him to Nam. They didn't fool around.

[kath]

52. Whoa, Bandit, is there any way you could get that message out to the

press (or at least to the editor of your local paper --(about your friend in the NG missing 3 meetings and getting DRAFTED because of it?!)

[9215]

15. I'll tell you what happened to me

I had this non-com Southern Bible thumper over me at my station and he did not like my free-spirited ways. We were in a perpetual struggle for over a year while being on an aircraft carrier. One time he deliberately falsified the facts concerning my whereabouts while on duty. Up to that time I had never missed duty.

He put me on report after sending another bible thumping gopher up to check "the wrong bunk" where I was suppose to be. The gopher came back and reported that I was not there. I was called down to command and punished with confinement to the ship for three "Port' o calls" and had no say in the matter. Plus the infraction was entered into my service record just as I was about to move up a pay grade.

I then got the gopher who this non-com sent to check my bunk and walked through the process with him when he checked my bunk. Sure enough he had checked the wrong bunk.

"But that is the bunk he told me to check 9215." The gopher told me.

I brought this info to the station Chief (Master Chief Petty Officer) and he, also a bible-thumping kiss ass told me it was over and he would not overturn the verdict.


It was at that point I realized how tenous my situation was: how easily I could get fucked over by some ass-kissing prick and end up doing time in the brig with Marines thumping my head irregardless of whether I was innocent or guilty. Up to this time fairness, and truth were just abstract concepts, now I was experienceing what it is like to get fucked over by the system first hand.

I decided to go on the offensive and I did pretty much the same thing to the bible-thumping bastid that he did to me. Rather than going into details I'll just say I fucked up the bible-thumpers life by various means until he was broken in rank and booted off the station, an important one for squadron operations. What I did to the thumper did not compromise squadron operations; in fact it improved them.


The shop turned into a relatively pleasant place to be after this bozo was gone. The guy who moved into his slot, a black guy from the North who had alot of trouble with "crackers" seemed to blossom in his new role. He used to stay after hours and help the "newbies" out. I hadn't anticipated this windfall and never told anybody about my actions against the thumper.

One day this black guy, a tall gangly fellow who was in a permanent crouch because of the low ceiling in the shop, looked at me quizzically and shook his head. "Always wondered why "blank" started fuckin' up....What do you think 9'er"?

"You never know." I said .

A few minutes later he let out a bellow of a laugh and kept laughing.


I cruised until my discharge and got my ass outta there and never told a soul.



Missing duty is a big no-no.

[Toots]

28. Just out of curiosity...

You mentioned two different fellows by color and I was wondering exactly what the color of them had to do with your story. In either instance would it had made a significant difference if you had just said "this guy" instead of "this black guy?" :shrug:

[9215]

36. Yea, it made some differance

I have written more details of this situation down elsewhere describing the subtle and sometimes not so subtle racism I saw in the Navy. What, to me, was so significant is that this black guy should have been head of the shop long before the thumper and when he did take over the role the shop morale improved dramatically. It was too bad it had to happen per chance instead of him being promoted deliberately.

Hope that helps

[LiberalFighter]

51. Makes my day when I hear someone get their just due!!

[9215]

77. I didn't fully comprehend the after affects of my actions in the

shop until some time later when I was out of the Navy. This was not the only incident like this. I saw somebody else do hard time as a patsy in a smuggling operation. I myself was involved in it and did not know it.

The military can grind you up and destroy you and you never see the enemy. I was threatened by some career ("lifer")1st Class Petty Officers, my supervisors, who were stealing shit from my station and got in alot of hot water when I inadvertantly caught them at it. Then they demanded that I participate in the thievery!

These same bastards wrote my evaluations.

I one time put a Commissioned officer on report and the whole fucking squadron non-commissioned component went ballistic.

It took me awhile to get it together to go on the offensive, I was only 19-21 years old and these PO's were in their 30's and new how to work the system. It was a fucking nightmare. If I went over their heads I was haranged for not using the chain of command.

Fortunately I was in good shape working out alot and at one particulary bad situation I picked up a hammer and tapped the head in my hand while glaring devilshly at one of the lifers. His fucking glasses fogged over in fear and he never fucked with me again.

There were times when I felt I would have kicked a son-of-bitch overboard and not thought twice about it.

The military is no-bullshit when it comes to danger from within and without. There are alot of real warped motherfuckers in there.

[Grins]

16. Those records...

Attendance questions: Nope. None. Army knew it all.

Records confusing: Nope.

Sgt/Chief havoc: OK, here we go. Once the officers and UCMJ got through with you, the NCO’s (the good ones) would treat you with disdain for AWOL (never saw a deserter come back), and make your life miserable. You would forever have that little black mark. BUT, if you were going to be late getting back (vs. leaving on your own), and as soon as you were aware that you were going to miss duty – you CALLED your company – they would cut you some slack (assuming that, over all, you were basically a good soldier). You still would get hit with an Article 15, but they would understand an honest effort vs. a deliberate act.

That’s for an enlisted member. But, for an OFFICER to do what Bush did, he’d NEVER be forgiven. I can’t even imagine it. And even worse than that, if an officer got away with something as contemptible as this, and commanders had nailed an enlisted man for the same thing, the NCO’s would hold the entire officer corps in contempt, and they would be right. And that’s a BIG problem! How can anyone vote for this bastard?

“…whup” out a DD-214: It would take me a while but I could do it. If you don’t have it, like I assume former Lt. Bush conveniently does not, then you can go to the Military Personnel Center in St. Louis and get copies – but don’t hold your breath. The have other priorities with active duty personnel. A retired friend of mine needs information from his records and they told him they could not get to them for two YEARS! Still, … a call from the boss does wonders.

As for Clinton being a draft dodger – not in my book. To me, a draft dodger is one that fails to show up for induction, or skipped to Canada. Clinton was just like a lot of my college friends; they didn’t want to go, hated the war, and tried like hell to get out of the draft with a medical, a government deferment for graduate school, or a job in a defense industry (a high school friend got out because he was an apprentice at a company with a government contract - they made metal freakin' bookends!!!). If none of that was available to them, they tried to join the Guard – just like Quayle, and just like Bush – only they couldn’t get in!!! All those units had waiting lists, and unless you “knew” someone that could help you get in, you had a problem. Even at that, you were taking that slot from someone else ahead of you. And you know what happened to them. Both Quayle and Bush are despicable.

Me: I was a Lt. with the Big Red One, 1971-73.

[TahitiNut]

19. I agree 100%.

[TahitiNut]

17. I have two DD-214's ... and every day is accounted for.

An enlisted person who didn't show in those days was looking at an Article 15 at a minimum and Leavenworth at a maximum. 'Nam had plenty of guardsmen who were activated due to attendance issues. I knew of a couple myself, as I recall. The waiting list to get into the guard was years long in the late 60's ... and I had friends who chose to enlist (Navy) because they couldn't get in and didn't want to be drafted into the Army (or Marine Corps).

Like taxes, avoidance is both legal and acceptable, evasion is illegal and unacceptable, and cheating is reprehensible. Clinton avoided the service; some evaded by going to Canada; Shrub cheated -- the dishonorable act of a coward.

[Bandit]

80. I have two honorable discharges but only one DD-214 How did you get 2

Were you in two separate branches of service? I took a burst of three while in Nam and in fact for over twenty four hours I was a civilian there. I was given an honorable discharge and then the next day I was sworn in for a three year enlistment. It was one way of getting out of infantry and into helicopters.

[TahitiNut]

102. Yes, two separate branches.

I was a cadet at the USCGA for (just shy of) two years ('61-'63) and then an Army draftee for (just shy of) two years ('68-'69). (I was part of Nixon's 'early return' pacification program to bring back troops before the holidays who were DEROS'd during or very shortly after the holidays.)

[Dees]

20. When my brigade of the 1st Infantry Division

was sent to Vietnam in 1965 we sailed aboard the beautiful cruise ship the USNS Patch. As a PFC I was assigned KP on the ship for the duration of the trip (24 days). On or about the 18th day of KP I overslept and was AWOL from KP that day. The cooks were all Jamaican and were a pretty good bunch and probably didn't give two sh*ts. I never returned to KP on the Patch. It was the only time of my two years in the Army that I was ever unaccounted for. Once we landed at Vung Tau and made our way to Lai Khe and for the next 12 months the flippin'Army knew exactly where I was even though there were times we had no idea where our platoon was. DD214 and Honorable Discharge are in our file cabinet two minutes away. I was fortunate enough to be excused from a year of active reserves as my infantry MOS did not exactly match up with the engineering unit in my community and I was off to be a freshman in college.

[Brewman_Jax]

22. No questions on my duty record

...and I have my DD-214 in my files next to my passport. Lost track of the original, the NMRO in St. Louis sent my copy in about 6 weeks.

All Mr. Bush* has to do is just show his copy--if he has one.

There's no bigger hammer than the truth! :thumbsup:

[ThomWV]

24. I Was AWOL

Yep, its true. I was 4 days late comming back from my 30 day leave between my second and third tour in Viet Nam. Oh, and I have a slew of minor medals and a Bronze Star. I also have an honerable discharge. If I had been gone missing for a year I would still be in jail somewhere.

DD-214? I could bring one out in a heartbeat, and it shows an Article-15 for the AWOL on it (I think it cost me $50 and an extension of my ETD by a like number of days), by the way.

Thom

[RapidCreek]

25. No no questions at all

every school, every assignment, every duty station request, every duty station assignment, every duty station check-in, every duty station check-out, every travel voucher, every inspection, every eval, every leave request, my DD-214's, commendation, Honorable discharge and all medical documentation are present in my records. They knew were I was and what I was doing at all times......Hell the fuckers sent me a bill a year after I was discharged for a "discrepancy" on one of my travel vouchers. If today...20 years later I was asked to account for where I was and what I was doing at any time during my military service, my records would clearly document both.

Here is a letter I sent the editor of our only local newspaper....are right wing Neo-Con rag....which they refused to print.

I am a veteran, as is almost every male member of my family prior to 1985.
We have fought in every war from Spanish American War to Vietnam, with the exception of
Korea....perhaps prior wars as well but no history is available.

William Jefferson Clinton was a vocal opponent of the police action in
Vietnam. He received a Rhodes scholarship got a deferment and went to college. Upon
completion of college he put his name into the draft pool but was never
called.

George W. Bush was a vocal supporter of of the police action in Vietnam. I
won't belabor the point of how he got into the Texas Air National Guard
ahead over 400 already on the waiting list. I won't belabor the point that
he declined the opportunity given on his enlistment papers to serve
overseas. I won't belabor the point that he disobeyed orders and failed to
show up for drug testing and a mandatory physical and as a result was
forbidden to fly. I won't belabor the point that his being forbidden to fly,
effectively wasted the 200,000 to 1,000,000 dollars worth of US taxpayers
money spent to train him. I won't belabor the point that he went AWOL by
UCMJ legal definition and got away with it. What I will belabor is the fact
that George W. Bush stood in front of my countries flag, a flag which my
family has protected for the past hundred years, and SWORE, with one hand on
his heart:

I, George W. Bush
Do solemnly swear
That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States
Against all enemies, foreign and domestic
That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States
and the orders of the officers appointed over me
According to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice

SO HELP ME GOD

This was a pledge of commitment. It was a pledge made under the eyes of God
to fellow country men. It is a pledge that George W. Bush failed to fulfill;
a failure borne not of hardship or the fortitude of principle but of
arrogance and privilege.

As a US veteran, I find the man, George W. Bush and anyone who attempts to
defend or excuse his dishonor to our flag, our constitution, God and our
country, contemptable and unpatriotic.

He has no business being our president and certainly no business being
Commander and Chief of the United States Military. He has no business
expecting young men and women to live up to a commitment that he himself
decided was not worth living up to. My head hangs in shame that this man
represents our country to the world.

Maybe I should submit it as a guest article.....they claimed it was too long for a Letter to the Editor.....and included the following in their response:

Thank you for writing to the Rapid City Journal.
I won't belabor the point that William Jefferson Clinton did receive a draft
notice. I forget the particulars of how he escaped the draft, but I think he
got Sen. William Fulbright of Arkansas to get him transfered into an ROTC
program that he never joined.
I hang my head in shame that you weren't aware of this.
Your letter is too long for a letter to the editor.
Please edit and resubmit.
Randall Rasmussen
Opinion page editor
RCJ

You get an idea of the tone of the paper from its staff members response....very professional wouldn't you say?


RC

[TacticalPeek]

40. Excellent.

Bravo.


I was one day late on a 48-hour pass, state-side, and found my ass in the stockade.

Frankly, I expected it, but was hoping the Army would look at it as 'just one day'. No soap.


Naturally, my 201 file reflects this, of course, because when you separate from any service, one of the last spasms of the bureaucratic process (that started with the rosters for needles in the arm and boot sizes) is to assemble your various records, and get you ready for separation. One of the steps is to reconcile your ETS date, and post any Article 15 adjustments, etc. That whole choreography, marching in step with medical clearance, finance niceties like a ticket to your Home of Record, and so on, is an important ritual 'end' to your service, from the system's perspective.

I ETS'd thousands of guys out during that period. If all of aWol's records are disclosed, his ass is grass.

:evilgrin:

[Hekate]

49. That's a great letter

Now that the subject is back in the news (sorta), you should send it off to Time, Newsweek, and whatever large paper serves your region, or the big town or city --whatever. But you make excellent points. Thanks.

Hekate

"But why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many,
what day it's going to happen, and how many this or what do you
suppose? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my
beautiful mind on something like that?" ~Barbara Bush

"I guess the 'nation's grandma' isn't the grandma of those her son sends into harm's way." ~Hekate

ARLINGTON WEST, SANTA BARBARA CALIF.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Default.htm
click on the large photo of AW to go here:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm
Scroll down the page for all the photos...

[RapidCreek]

59. Thanks Guys and or Gals

I really appreciate it. As to resubmitting it...I thought the issue was dead. I originally submitted it at the beginning of the war. Thankfully interest in Bush's dishonorable behavior during his enlistment seems to have found new life....albiet a bit to late to prevent our soldiers from being used as mercenary's.

I shall edit it a bit and follow your suggestions concerning submission to major media outlets and news papers.

RC

[Bandit]

65. Excellent Letter ~ I would submit it to a larger paper and include the

response you received. Either that or submit it as an opinion piece or a "My Turn". Make sure you include the response you received and I think I would submit it to a larger paper anyway. It is worthy. Just make sure you include the name of the paper which first rejected your letter and their response. They need the publicity.

[July]

26. Good topic, and re Clinton

I agree with the poster above who notes that what Clinton did was not draft dodging (poster suggests that leaving the country, not showing up for induction is dodging, while seeking deferments is a legal means to avoid service).

Besides pointing out this difference to wingers who bring up Clinton's name, we might also add the names Cheney, Ashcroft, Lott, etc., who did the same thing. Point two to make when Clinton's name comes up is that if it bothers them that Clinton sought legal means to avoid service, why is it okay that Bush apparently ILLEGALLY avoided service? Point three is that Bush received several forms of special treatment. Point four, as you are all showing so clearly, is that RELEASING THE RECORDS will make this issue go away.

Not surprising, is it, that just as they did concerning O'Neill, they are making charges of "outrageous" remarks by their critics BUT NOT REFUTING THE CHARGE AGAINST BUSH/BUSH CRONIES?

When will people start noticing that last point?

[oneighty]

27. Interesting Bosshog!

As a Mineman seaman apprentice in 1952 I was on my way to San Fran to catch a ride to Sasebo to meet up with a Mine Sweeper. (USS Symbol AM 123). I got caught up in a snow storm in O Hare Chicago. I caught a flight to LA instead where I turned myself over to the Shore Patrol as I was six hours absent over leave (AOL). They shipped me up to Treasure Island Receiving station (do not ever go there) where I was made Prisoner At Large, awaiting my fate for thirty days. My blue dungaree shirt had in large letters on the back PAL. At Captains Mast (NJP) the Officer was trying to hide a smile because of the noise my knees were making knocking together and my face was bloodless. I got six hours extra duty in the mess hall (And all I could eat) as punishment.

I have much of my service record (FOIA)in my files. In there for every body to see is the report in detail of my screw up.

Please Mr. Bush* show me your service record.

[Stephanie]

29. What we DO have of Bush's records is here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

FINALLY, THE TRUTH ABOUT BUSH'S MILITARY SERVICE RECORD
George W.'s Missing Year

Marty Heldt is a farmer. He told us, "I spent 17 years as a brakeman before moving back to the farm. That job had some long layovers that gave me a lot of time to read and to educate myself." He lives in Clinton, Iowa.

Nearly two hundred manila-wrapped pages of George Walker Bush's service records came to me like some sort of giant banana stuffed into my mailbox.

I had been seeking more information about his military record to find out what he did during what I think of as his "missing year," when he failed to show up for duty as a member of the Air National Guard, as the Boston Globe first reported.

The initial page I examined is a chronological listing of Bush's service record. This document charts active duty days served from the time of his enlistment. His first year, a period of extensive training, young Bush is credited with serving 226 days. In his second year in the Guard, Bush is shown to have logged a total of 313 days. After Bush got his wings in June 1970 until May 1971, he is credited with a total of 46 days of active duty. From May 1971 to May 1972, he logged 22 days of active duty.

Then something happened. From May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973 -- a period of twelve months -- there are no days shown, though Bush should have logged at least thirty-six days service (a weekend per month in addition to two weeks at camp).

<more>

<The documents are available at: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm >

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Merlin]

67. This is the key document. THE MOTHER LODE!

Thanks, Stephanie, for posting this link.

(http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm)

doc23.gif:



Transcription of doc23.gif
__________________________

j. "I have been counseled this date regarding the provisions of DOD Directive 1215.15, 23 February 1967. I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation as presently defined in Chapter 41, AFM 35-3. Further, I understand that if I am unable to satisfactorily participate in the ANG, and have an unfulfilled military service obligation, that I may be discharged from the State ANG and assigned to the Obligated Reserve Section (ORS), AF Reserve, Denver, Colorado, and subject to active duty for a period not to exceed a total of 24 months considering all previous active duty and active duty for remaining tours."

k. "However, I also understand that the provisions for invoking the 45 day tour for a member who has a satisfactory attendance record but has failed to progress in specialty training will remain in effect. (Paragraph 41.7a, AFM 35-3.)"


{George Walker Bush}
(Signature of Enlistee)

George W. Bush
(Typed Name)


Witnessed By:
Willie B. Hooper, Jr., Capt, Asst Admin Officer
(Unit Commander or Authorized Representative)

[Bandit]

71. Actually this one could hurt our case more than it helps

All they have to say is, "If he missed his meetings he would get drafted and that didn't happen so I guess he didn't miss any." He was aware that if he missed any meetings what the consequences would be.

[Merlin]

72. I completely disagree. You're misreading it.

It says he should be aware that he COULD be drafted "if" (meaning "because") he missed his meetings.

[Stephanie]

34. Kicking - this is the BEST DU THREAD EVER!

Way to go DU VETS! I love you all!

:kick:

[ursacorwin]

76. excellent thread!

i love the slogan at the original post!

dd-214! let's paint it everywhere from here to nov, along with bodycounts from iraq (think turk-182)...that ought to shame folks who whine about clinton going to school instead of illegally killing south asians for control of the heroin market in asia, while bush vacationed in flight school in tx until he wanted to go golf for a year in alabama doing coke. as for him starting a war...people are dying because he wants to look good in a flight suit? i think not.

thanks so much to all you vets, making me believe what i've always thought.

bush.
criminal.
awol.
traitor.

[matcom]

30. DD-214: Safety Deposit Box

so may take me 15 minutes to retrieve it (if there isn't a line)

they knew where i was EVERY minute of EVERY day

say it loud: AWOL

[atreides1]

32. My Reply

I have my DD-214, my Honorable Discharge Certificate, and a photocopy
of my 201 which shows where I had been for the entire 13 years of active service, starting in 1978 and ending in 1991.

By the way Clinton did register for the draft, but like some others
including my current boss his number was on the high end of the spectrum.

[Postman]

33. I'm a Navy Vet. Bush was UA.And that's being lenient....

While I was in, anybody that was UA for over 30 days was considered a deserter.

I wonder how many NG or Reservists over in Iraq would like to go home now and work on someone's political campaign then make up the time later?

Three words- Biggest. Fraud. Ever.

[Hubert Flottz]

35. I saw all kinds of people do stockade time for AWOL!

Then they made up every day they did in the stockade usually 6 months in the cooler and six more added on to your time left in the service when you got out! Then after their time was up they got bad discharges to boot! I never saw one man get by with more than a couple days AWOL! Rummy was the real classic repub ass, when he said the draftee's time didn't matter! Hell if I'd known that I'd have stayed home like a repub rich boy! I never met a single rich kid in the Army in two years either!

[I Thaumaturgist]

37. During Vietnam the guard normally didn't have a choice.

I am currently in the Air Force Reserve. Have been for 18 years. I was in the first Gulf War and will be going back over later on this year for a short time. Many of my friends were in Vietnam. They didn't have the chance to go into a guard unit. One officer was a medic in the Army during Vietnam. He and five of his friends enlisted on the same day and were stationed in the same platoon. He was the only one to come back. When I asked him what happened to people that didn't do thier guard duty back then he told me that they were arrested and immediatedly enlisted in the infantry and sent to Vietnam.

I believe that George Bush was AWOL for that year. I believe that officers in the Alabama National Guard looked the other way while George Bush ran around working on a campaign and snorting coke as a favor to his dad.

I believe that if the truth comes out about his deplorable service record that he will lose much of the military vote. Although there will always be sheep in the military that will vote for satan as long as he is a republican. Sadly some thing they aren't supposed to think when they put on the uniform.

[Stephanie]

54. Welcome to DU, I Thaumaturgist.

It's great to have you here.

Best Thread Ever

:kick:

[trof]

38. here

I send this out every time it comes up on the web. Maybe somewhere it will
get some traction. Feel free to use any or all of this, with or without
attribution.

At the time I joined the guard (1963), my unit was in dire need of pilots.
The 117th Tactical Recon Wing and the 106th Tac Recon Squadron were
recalled to active duty in October 1961 during the Berlin Crisis.
The units were relieved from active duty in August 1962.
Many of the pilots elected to remain on active duty and make a career
of the Air Force.

I heard about their pilot training program and just walked in off the
street. I took a 4 hour Air Force Officer Qualification Test (AFOQT,
basically the old Stanine general intelligence test) and another four hour
Flight Aptitude test. I passed both, although I don't remember what a
passing grade was. I do remember that 8 or 10 of us were taking the tests
and only 2 of us passed. I also took and passed a flight physical with the
base flight surgeon. You DO NOT take a flight physical with your
"personal" physician.

While my test papers and applications were
forwarded to National Guard Bureau in Washington for processing and
approval, the FBI ran a security check on me. A few weeks later I was
notified that all preparations were complete and that I could present myself
at the monthly drill week-end for swearing in with a temporary commission as
a 2nd Lt. No boot camp, no nuthin'. The temporary commission was to become
permanent upon my successful completion of pilot training.

A few months later, my unit secured a slot for me in a USAF pilot training
class. It was a 55 week program. When I was awarded my wings, I returned
to Birmingham, AL (106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 117th Wing,
Alabama Air National Guard) and 90 days of active-duty-for-training
to check out in our unit's aircraft, the RF-84/F. I then completed my 6
year obligation and was honorably discharged with the rank of Captain.
Massey Lambard
Foley, AL

AWOL? Deserter? Here are the FACTS.

Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm#802.%20ART.%202.%20PERSONS%20SUBJECT%20TO%20THIS%20CHAPTER

802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER
(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in
the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the
Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.

Bush was not in Federal Service, thus not subject to UCMJ, and therefore not
AWOL or a deserter under UCMJ.

However, from the Texas Code of Military Justice, which Bush "may have
been" (see below) subject to says:
Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 147, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987. § 432.130. Desertion
(a) A member of the state military forces is guilty of desertion if the
member:
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or
place of duty with intent to remain away permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid
hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the state military forces,
enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another of the state
military forces, or in one of the armed forces of the United States, without
fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated.
(b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of
his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or
proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is
guilty of desertion.
(c) A person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be
punished as a court-martial directs.

Bush was certainly in violation of one or more of these sections, but notice
the law was passed in 1987, well after he was out of the guard. So far, I
can find no information as to what the law was when Bush was in the TANG.


I was a pilot in the ALAANG 1963-1972. I can find no documentation of Alaba
ma military regulations on the web, but here's what I know to be true from
personal experience:

When I joined the guard to be trained as a pilot I signed an agreement, a
"contract" if you will. Upon successful completion of USAF pilot training,
I was committed for six years of service in the Alabama Air National Guard
(ALAANG). Pilot training lasted a little over a year, so my basic
obligation was for seven years.

If I had done exactly the same thing Bush did, skipped out and not shown up
for required drills and Flight Training Periods (FTPs)
1. I would have been located/contacted (if possible) by a superior officer
on an "unofficial" level and asked about my absence. In reality, it would
have been unthinkable for me or any of my squadron-mates to just drop out of
sight without any prior communication with my squadron or wing as to a
reason for this.
2. If I had no satisfactory "unofficial" explanation I would be required to
meet with an evaluation board of senior officers to explain my actions. If
necessary, I would have been taken into custody by military police.
3. Now it gets "official" If the board found I had no acceptable excuse,
they could offer three options.
a. I could make up the missed periods, possibly by extending my
obligation.
b. If I was unwilling to do this, I could have been assigned to
"involuntary active duty" (essentially "drafted"), probably into the Army,
as a private, for a period not to exceed the balance of my obligation. At
the time, that was a ticket straight to Viet Nam.
c. If I refused, I could be sent to jail for the balance of my obligation,
probably to Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary.

You can see why it was in my best interest to show up each and every time
with a shine on my shoes and a smile on my face. That Bush was able to
shirk his obligation with absolutely no penalty angers me. It was wrong,
and he should have paid. But he didn't. He had the right connections and
he got off scot free. Another reason this was "papered over" is that, had
it been publicized, his commanding officers would have been seen as guilty
of dereliction of duty in not dealing with the situation according to
established military regulations.

Two more points:
1. Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. As a normal matter of course, just
serving the necessary time-in-grade and having no major black marks in their
records, all National Guard pilots were awarded the rank of Captain a year
prior to completing their 6 year obligation. That Bush did not speaks
volumes and should have been a "red flag".
2. In spite of Bush's flagrant disregard/violation of military regulations,
he received an Honorable Discharge (which cheapens mine and the
accomplishments of all who have received one). This is one of the strongest
"talking points" used by his supporters.

We can bemoan the fact, and wail and gnash our teeth, but there's no way
(that I know of) that this wrong can be righted. I won't "get over it", but
I can move on. We can publicize this as much as possible, but he will never
be brought up on criminal charges over it. Periodically someone discovers
www.awolbush.com for the first time and thinks "Aha!". Well, I'm glad you
learned about it. Go tell others, for whatever that's worth. But don't
think you will ever see Bush in a court of law, military or civilian,
because of this. The only small, faint hope we have is the court of public
opinion.

[LiberalFighter]

55. For us non-military

Commissioned Officer Ranks

O-1 Second Lieutenant
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-3 Captain
O-4 Major
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel
O-6 Colonel
O-7 Brigadier General
O-8 Major General
O-9 Lieutenant General
O-10 General
General of the Army

[DemoTex]

56. And then there was "nether" land ... the best of all worlds.

WO-1
CW-2
CW-3
CW-4

Warrant Officers

[tinymontgomery]

39. 23 years

and every miniute and day accounted for. Like everyone else, DD214 can be in my hands in about 3 minutes. I'll show * mine if he shows me his!!!!

[Mountainman]

41. I remember being CQ and doing bed checks

If anyone was not in their bunk they were reported as absent. Also in morning formation it was noted if someone was missing.

[45th Med]

43. DD214 in my wallet and safe deposit box

I missed 18 days of drill (with written permission) in my 4 year reserve service after 6 years active duty when I broke both collar bones in a motorcycle accident. I could not perform my duties during that time as a flight medic.

[MsFlorida]

44. my dd214 has been replaced -- yes, twice

no problem, just had to fill out the required paperwork. Had to replace my ex's once as well -- again, no issue

[truthspeaker]

45. thanks for refuting the Rethug lies!

"Service records get lost, etc. etc." You all have shown this isn't true.

Either Bush is lying about his record, or every single one of you guys is lying about your experiences with how the military handled AWOL.

I wish the press would do the obvious fact check and ask other veterans the very question BOSSHOG asked in the OP.

[manchu]

46. Active Duty also

The chimp was AWOL. Period.

[tabasco]

47. I have a copy of every evaluation I ever received.

The Army drills it into your head to save these records. If Bush served in Alabama, he should have copies of his OER's. He doesn't because he never showed up for drills. Phone calls got him an honorable discharge just like they got him into the Guard in the first place.

[rexcat]

48. My DD214 is in a safe deposit box

and it was filed at the court house in Brevard Co. Florida so if I lose the original I can get a certified copy. I do have several copies in my files at home. Of interest, no one cares if I am a vet or not. No one asks me if I was honorably discharged. It is not as important as it used to be.

As far as not showing up for duty. Never did that, prison did not seem like the thing I wanted to do at the time. I did 3 years 10 months and 2 days of active duty. I got a 58 day early out (end of 1975) because I was accepted into a college and the USAF wanted as many people out as possible. There were big military cuts in 1975.

I do have one question, I thought anything over 30 days AWOL was desertion or am I wrong?

[D G]

57. Non-military here, just want to thank you all

This thread has been both entertaining and informative!

:loveya:

[Sugarbleus]

58. LOL--->poke a conservative in the eye... thanks for this post. n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

60. I watched the Army mistreat combat vets for two years!

The guys coming back from Nam that still had time to do in the service, were the saddest part of the War in Viet Nam IMO! Some were okay and did fine, but some were not okay! Whether they were half insane, or were strung out on drugs or booze made no difference to the Army! They were all forced to "play the game", "By The Book", until the last day of their contract with Uncle Sugar!

Some of these guys were so messed up in the head from the shit they saw and did in Nam that they should have been in mental hospitals, instead of back on active duty! Some had coped with the horrors they saw in Nam, with junk, or booze and they came back strung out to the max! The "Dopers" and "Juicers" coming back from Nam had used drugs and drink to deal with their pain and mental suffering in the war, just like people such as Rush use drugs for their pain! These Combat Vets didn't get cushy "treatment" like Rush did, but they got the "treatment" from the Army in the form of gross and even sadistic mistreatment by senior officers and NCOs! Most of the officers and NCOs who gave the guys a hard time, had never seen combat BTW!

The lucky Vets that came back from the War in Viet Nam, got to go straight home, where they could get help and healing from their families and friends! The lucky guys could go to real doctors that knew how, and wanted to, help them cope and heal! The lucky guys didn't feel "caged up" any more, because they had finished their military obligation and were free of the ARMY! The unlucky ones however, were the ones who had enlisted for longer terms than the draftees had to serve and came back home to the Army!

The point I want to make is this, these guys were "forced" to "Show UP" every day of their military obligation, "By The Book"! The fact that they had served their year in combat did not matter, they still had a military obligation, "By The Book"! A lot of these guys went AWOL for different reasons, but the Army tracked them down, jailed them and punished them in many other ways, then usually in the end discharged them under "less than honorable conditions", "By The Book". The Army never took into consideration the favor these guy had done for every swinging Richard in the USA rich or poor! I saw the Army ruin people's lives FOREVER instead of trying to help them! It was a slow, painful, degrading, process and these guys suffered putting in their time, "By The Book"!

To think about a man like George Bush, who has so far only ever done things to hurt his country, instead of serving or helping his country, get away with skipping out on his military obligation, because he had the money, makes me inwardly sick! An AWOL as CIC is the worst insult to this country, It's military, it's soldiers in the field and it's Veterans EVER IMO! It's painfully clear that George Bush believed 100% in "BUY the Book" instead of "BY The Book"!

The reality of an AWOL sending soldiers to die, or to be crippled up for life, in body as well as in mind, because the CIC lied and started a war for his own personal gain, is outrageous! Seeing Bush strut, prance, smirk and pose in military uniforms, on warships, and even on Hallowed Ground where Real Heroes lie sleeping, is unforgivable as well as unbearable!

[Hubert Flottz]

61. KIck Him Out!

:kick:

[rasputin1952]

62. I live in Norfolk NE...

some like to call it the "Land of Lost Souls", I kind of like it.

In a Town Meeting, there was a question brought up as to my dedication to the US. I was actually called a 'traitor', by a fellow citizen.

The next meeting was three weeks later. I went to that meeting with my uniform on a hanger, and my DD-214 placed on the seat. NO ONE questioned my dedication to the nation I wore that uniform for. The individual that had described me as a traitor three weeks previously was as silent as a doorstop, and I did not say a thing about my service. I do not believe that those of us that have served, should automatically claim "bragging rights", and volumes can be spoken without ever saying a word.

My father, who passed away on 4 Jul 65, and my stepfather, who passed away in '01, rarely discussed their war records from WWII. They did what they had to do. The VFW & American Legion are filled with vets that share the common bond of wartime experience. Through experience, I have found that many of those that inhabit the halls of said institutions are honorable men and women, but relatively few have actual real-time combat experience. Many were cooks or mechanics, truck drivers or supply. All necessary MOS's but generally far from frontline duty at 0300 in a frigid foxhole waiting for the inevitable attack just before dawn.

My point is, there is a very special bond between combat vets. No one has the right to question the patriotism or dedication to country, of those that have served, unless they have worn a uniform of this nation. Anyone can question WHY we fight...but those who have avoided service, should learn to have a deep respect for those that were called to defend this nation, while they sat it out in the warmth of a country that has not seen war on its shores since the Civil War.

O8)

[Karenina]

63. Kick!

:toast:

[NoKingGeorge]

64. non vet here. Just wanted to say thanks for your service. Thanks

[Galley_Queen]

68. AWOL Status Maybe Not as Important As

him being suspended from flying for not taking his physical. We KNOW he was AWOL, but don't have all the records since they were purged. But we DO have the records that show him being suspended, and for not taking his physical. So, perhaps another big point that should be brought out is how much money the US spent training the Chimp only to have him be suspended from flying. Was he permanently grounded? I seem to remember reading he was.

How does he explain not getting a physical at the same time drug testing was introduced and suspended from flying?

If he is so proud of being a pilot, why would he not attend his physical? Family doctor? So sorry....that doesn't work.

There's a lot more to his record than just the AWOL. If they start mentioning all the rest of it, he's dead meat becaue there will be simply too much to deny.

[Merlin]

69. THE DAMNING BUSH DOCUMENT. See for yourself.

(fwiw, I'm USA Arty, FO, 23d Infantry, 2 tours Vietnam combat '68-'70.)

Thanks to Stephanie for posting the reference to this and other Bush military records above.

I've included a transcription since it is difficult to read.

For the other docs, go to:
(http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm)

doc23.gif:



Transcription of doc23.gif
__________________________

j. "I have been counseled this date regarding the provisions of DOD Directive 1215.15, 23 February 1967. I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation as presently defined in Chapter 41, AFM 35-3. Further, I understand that if I am unable to satisfactorily participate in the ANG, and have an unfulfilled military service obligation, that I may be discharged from the State ANG and assigned to the Obligated Reserve Section (ORS), AF Reserve, Denver, Colorado, and subject to active duty for a period not to exceed a total of 24 months considering all previous active duty and active duty for remaining tours."

k. "However, I also understand that the provisions for invoking the 45 day tour for a member who has a satisfactory attendance record but has failed to progress in specialty training will remain in effect. (Paragraph 41.7a, AFM 35-3.)"


{George Walker Bush}
(Signature of Enlistee)

George W. Bush
(Typed Name)


Witnessed By:
Willie B. Hooper, Jr., Capt, Asst Admin Officer
(Unit Commander or Authorized Representative)

[myomy]

70. Great post BOSSHOG, from a Vetnam Vet.

.

[Richardo]

73. I can't tell you all how proud this non-vet is of each & every one of you

...and your brothers and sisters in arms. :yourock:

Thanks again. The current C-IN-C should be ashamed of himself. (And I can say that as his employer, for all you active duty guys)

[sidpleasant]

78. "service records get lost all the time"

What nonsense. I'm not a veteran but my late father was in the Marines from '45 to '70 (he did a tour in Viet Nam at age 43). When he died 4 years ago I needed to get a copy of his DD-214. All it took was a letter to the records center in Saint Louis and I had the document in about a month. Subtract the time in transit and it probably took them less than 3 weeks to dig up the file on a guy who'd left the service almost a third of a century. How fast could they find a file if the Office of the President of United States asked for it? Anyone wanna bet that Rove doesn't have Kerry's and Clark's service records on his desk already?

[rasputin1952]

79. Your military record is public property...

it is not personal property. There are a few ways one can get records into the public forum, all of them legal.

My DD-214 is there for the world to look at.

The higher the rank the requester is, the quicker the record is produced. Simple as that.

For those of you that have had family members previously in the service. You can obtain their records, and get replacement medals/ribbons as well. The exception is, only the Recipient of The Medal of Honor can request a replacement, (and nobody loses that one!).

This link is a great starting place:

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/vetrecs/

O8)

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

81. Your question....

No.
No.
Hell yeah.
minute or two
maybe

I am so glad to see this get talked about.

[9215]

82. Clinton talked the talk and

walked the walk.

Bushboy talks the talk and ran like hell.

[Rebellious Republican]

86. I was AWOL for 7 Days, My highschool sweetheart wrote me a

Dear John letter. So I jumped in my car and literally drove cross country, just one minor detail, I forgot to ask permission! I lost the girl, was given a Captians Mast when I returned (on my own),recieved 7 days restriction in the restricted barricks, 7 days extra duty, lose of 7 days pay, and 7 days added to the end of my enlistment. Managed to put in another enlistment on top of that one, recieved numerous awards and citations, and some medals. The two I cheerish the most were my hard earned "Navy Wings of Gold" (Aircrewman), and the Naval Expeditionary Forces Medal for support of the Marines in Beirut. I also have two Honoable Discharges and copies of my DD214's. Just can not understand why George can't produce anything?

[NNN0LHI]

87. Not military here but I helped my dad get a copy of his DD14 a few...

...years ago so he was able to get medical benefits from the VA. I had to write a couple of letters, make a few calls, and it took about a month to get it, but he got a copy. He was discharged from the Navy in 1946.

Don

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

88. navy corpsman '69-'73

i took my dd214 to the county courthouse and had it registered on microfilm.

[Nlighten1]

91. How does someone go about getting a copy of your military records?

Any one know?

[nolabels]

93. Does he need postage stamps? Some people can't stand them.........

new fangled computers and do everthing by US postage :-)

http://lawlibrary.ucdavis.edu/LAWLIB/July01/0274.html
(snip)
Here are some web site recommendations for writing for records:


MILITARY RECORDS
Source for military records
This is done by filing "form 180". You can get this form at National
Archives and Records Administration's website
http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprsf180.html

Kathy:
This info from NARA might be of interest.
http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprpub1b.html


http://www.defenselink.mil/faq/pis/PC09SLDR.html


Thanks again!


Kathy Taggart
Computer Services Librarian
Lowenstein Sandler PC
65 Livingston Ave.
Roseland, NJ 07068
(snip)

on edit: took me longer to paste it up and edit, than finding it
on second edit: Just got this new PC and can't do a thing with it ;-)

[Rebellious Republican]

97. Here ya go Nlighten1, you do not even need to get up from your

computer, its that easy. http://www.archives.gov/research_room/vetrecs/index.html
If you need health or other benifits here is the VA
http://www.va.gov/

[Wickerman]

92. I have my paperwork, and my DD214

and I don't keep track of ANYTHING! My 214 shows that I did 5 years and 2 months, 14 days, with 1 year, 2 months and 14 days extended at the pleasure of the USAF (I went to school on their time).

In that time I spent 1 day away from duty - I was sick and even then I had to drive in to base (25 minutes) and sit in sick bay for 2 or 3 hours, then drive back home. If I wouldn't have, I would've been absent without leave. One day. Not one year.

It lists all my medals, my assignments, schools, my AFSC's (job classes) and dates of all - its all there. If there were anything bad, it would be there, too. :think: wonder why Georgies can't be found? :think:

[Stephanie]

94. I would ask the DU Veterans

to post their answer to this question here, as a challenge to GWB, who claims that his records are "lost".

*edit: And I think this thread should be published somewhere. Maybe at Buzzflash? Maybe in the NY Times, if some of the posters would agree to interviews. This thread is a testament to prove that Bush LIES.

[matcom]

98. great idea

and bring on the interviewer!

[BlueCollar]

95. My honourable discharge

is hanging on the wall in my study. My DD214 is in a safe along with my passport and some other papers.

Total time to proove my credentials...about three minutes.

USNR (Active)
VP-40

[Snappy]

96. Got it among my important papers.

Passport, College Diploma, etc.

GW Bush is a liar, a shallow coward.

[calimary]

99. Just wanted to add my thanks to everybody here, from this civilian.

I've read this whole thread. I'm in awe. I'm also gravely disappointed that the Schmuck-in-Chief has dishonored all your hard-earned honorable discharges. I am so sorry. He is not worthy to touch the hem of your old uniforms.

[moondust]

100. Here's another question:

Do you remember what training and other activities you engaged in at your stateside duty stations? Not every detail, just a general narrative of what you did.

I'll never forget the places I lived and a lot of the people and much of what went on there. Since Bush went to so much trouble getting transferred to Alabama he should have no trouble recollecting what he did there in some detail.

Old documents are too easy to forge.

[Bandit]

101. Especially for someone with such a Churchillian mind.

If Bush* is as brilliant as Churchill he should remember a most defining moment in his past. Anyone who says military training is not defining moments never participated.

[BlueCollar]

103. piece of cake...

fixed airplanes in Japan, Korea, Philipines, Diego Garcia...

no-one forgets what they were doing in the service...:-)

[Karenina]

104. LOL! Da *doo-doohead dubya

be goin

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Anybody save that platter from Eye-rack???

[Vickers]

105. Hey Buzzz, your training is detailed on the DD214...

...in Block 14. It will list every technical school you've been to, plus career development-type courses.

It took me about 5 minutes to locate my service records, but most of that time was looking for the key to the fire safe.

Vickers, USAF 1982-1990
8 years, 26 days ("EXTENSION OF SERVICE WAS AT THE REQUEST AND FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE GOVERNMENT" - har!)

[moondust]

107. Yes but I want to hear * tell us some stories about it.

What were the living conditions like? Did he live in a barracks or other housing? Off base? (Rent receipts?) What did they usually do at drills and meetings? March around a parade field? Look at flight manuals? Where were they held? Gotta be some anecdotes.

Ask him some things that only somebody who was there in person would know and then check around to see if it can be verified. I know I'd be happy to sit down and rattle on for an hour or two about any of my duty assignments 30 years ago if it got the weight of the world off my back.

By the way Vickers, does that last line of yours mean STOP LOSS?

[Vickers]

108. Yeah, tell me where the chow hall is, George

See, I was at about 40 or so different bases over my 8 years (I was an installer, so I got to travel a lot). I can probably remember where the chow hall was on about 90% of the bases. Military folks are ruled by their bellies.

Or at least ask him where the Officer's Club is...that might be more familiar to him. I can certainly remember where the NCO club is on a lot of bases!

The last line of my DD-214 is block 29, "DATES OF TIME LOST DURING THIS PERIOD."

Mine says "NONE." But, you know, I showed up and everything.

I found an explanation of it:

" (a) For enlisted soldiers, show inclusive periods of time lost to be made good under 10 USC 972, and periods of non-chargeable time after ETS.

(b) For officers, show inclusive dates absent without leave (Article 86, Uniform Code of Military Justice)."

I think it was for folks that lost good chunks of time for either missed duty because of disciplinary action, or extended illness. In the remarks section (block 18) there would be an explanation of it.

[Stephanie]

106. kicking

Why do we have to keep pretending that what George Bush says makes sense?

Here is testimony from dozens of Vets that producing military records is a matter of opening the file drawer or the safe deposit box. And yet we have a "president" who can't remember where he was or who he was with, and can't offer any paperwork to prove anything.

This is the best thread I have ever read at DU.

:kick:

[libertad]

109. You are correct, anyone who has served knows what they were

doing and when. I could show you my DD-214 today. It just doesn't add up.

[King_Crimson]

110. DD-214 in my wallet...

Actual discharge (DD-256) in frame on the wall where its been since April of 1977!

[CRK7376]

111. I've served in

the Active Forces
the Reserves
and the Guard.
I have pay stubs, Leave and Earning Statement(LES) for nearly all the 25+ years I've served and am still serving. I have two DD214s from the Army and I forgot the number the ArmyGuard uses for it's Honorable Discharge form 22 or 23??? But I have it too, for a total of 3 documents that state I served honorably....Got all the Evaluations to support 20+ years of commissioned service. No weird gaps in my record.....