Is Toby Keith's "Beer for My Horses" a racist anthem?

[JanMichael]

Lyrics :

Well a man come on the 6 o’clock news
Said somebody’s been shot, somebody’s been abused
Somebody blew up a building
Somebody stole a car
Somebody got away
Somebody didn’t get too far yeah
They didn’t get too far

Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see that

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune
We’ll all meet back at the local saloon
We’ll raise up our glasses against evil forces
Singing whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds
We’ve got too much corruption, and crime in the streets
It’s time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground
Send ’em all to their maker and he’ll settle ’em down
You can bet he’ll set ’em down ’cause

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune
We’ll all meet back at the local saloon
We’ll raise up our glasses against evil forces
Singing whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune
We’ll all meet back at the local saloon
We’ll raise up our glasses against evil forces
Singing whiskey for my men, beer for my horses
============================================

OK, it's certainly endorses lynching, that's a given. But with "gangsters" added to the "someone blew up a building" line it sure does sound like he's suggesting who ought to get lynched.

I guess he needs an friendly FYI...Lynching is murder.

FUTK.

PS~ Does Willie sing this with TK on an album? What's he thinking?

[mac56]

1. Willie did indeed sing this with TK.

And not just on the album - on the hit single version that was all over country radio last spring and summer. #1 on the country charts in June, I believe. I don't know what the hell Willie was thinking.

[mopinko]

3. I don't know what the hell Willie was thinking.

wtf

[loudnclear]

62. In the old west they lynched whites who were criminals...not racist

I mean, the racist lynchings took place in GA,NC, SC, MD, VA they even have a city in VA called Lynchburg!

[beanball]

114. Lynchburg

was named for a man named Lynch.

[Solomon]

130. Not only that, but it's not the old west anymore. He's singing about

today bub.

[Retrograde]

146. and Mexicans

and Chinese and Native Americans and other handy foreigners. The history of California during the Gold Rush does not make pleasant reading. Ever wonder how Hangtown got its name?

It is true, though, that there was a lot of white-on-white lynching in the old west - the last mob lynching in California, for example: San Jose c. 1935

linda

[veganwitch]

2. is this on the "shock and y'all" album??

fucking christ.

"Grandpappy told my pappy,"

i'll say it. fucking hick white trash.

and yeah. the song is racist.

[xchrom]

5. shock and y'all!?!

damn, vegan, that was good.
care if i borrow that?

[veganwitch]

17. actually thats what is latest album is called

if you dont believe me, check amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C9ZK6/qid=1075735665/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5053565-2923039

check the reviews too.

[foxglove1]

20. You can't .... it's the actual name of TK's album

copyrighted, I believe

Sue

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. What exactly is racist?

Please specific and not just bigoted with your comments.

[veganwitch]

72. lynching almost always refers to african americans...

though other minorities have been swept up as well.

second "We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds"
-hes not refering to al capone here.

also, watch the six o'clock news. almost aways they are mention crimes perpetrated by an unknown black man.

and indiana is my home residence. ive experienced plenty of ignorant racist behaviour to call it as it is.

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. Lynching

Have you ever seen a western? I mean one of the movies obviously in the mind of this guy when he wrote the song?

Almost no black actor was among those lynched in the movies? It was always a random selection of cattle rustlers, horses thieves and gunmen.

You are applying the standards of reality to the concept of Hollywood fantasy. Always a surefire way to make a mistake.

Actually, the gangsters he seems to reference are bad guys -- terrorists and the like. Or just the criminal element. Sorry, but that does NOT reference black America.

We don't do all or most of the crimes.

[Solomon]

132. Hee Hee. You really take the cake.

He's talking about today not the old west, and if you think all they hung was white cowboys, back den ina de ole west, then YOU are the one that needs to let go of hollywood fantasy. Tee Hee.

[liberalpress]

4. People... calm down...

..it's a period piece... like "Ghost Riders in the Sky." Sheesh!

[JanMichael]

8. It's a period piece? Which period? This period?

Which buildings?

Which lynching?

[liberalpress]

13. OK let me make myself clear...

...it's about the old West, you know 19th century stuff, like Gunsmoke... OK. And bandits who blow up banks and rob stagcoaches and molest the schoolma'arms and stuff. Any relation to today is purely co-incidental. It's fiction... made up. Not real. There. Maybe that will do it.

[Misinformed01]

14. Not real? Indeed it was very real.

"Texas stands third among the states, after Mississippi and Georgia, in the total number of lynching victims. Of the 468 victims in Texas between 1885 and 1942, 339 were black, 77 white, 53 Hispanic, and 1 Indian. Half of the white victims died between 1885 and 1889, and 53 percent of the Hispanics died in the 1915 troubles. Between 1889 and 1942 charges of murder or attempted murder precipitated at least 40 percent of the mobs; rape or attempted rape accounted for 26 percent. Blacks were more likely to be lynched for rape than were members of other groups, although even among blacks murder-related charges accounted for 40 percent of the lynchings and rape for only 32 percent."

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/LL/jgl1.html

Yes, it is racist. I am hoping that Willie got a bad batch, and was temporarily insane.

[liberalpress]

22. Fine...

I give up. It's racist. All Toby Keith songs are racist. ANd facist... and evil. And whatever.


Edited to fix typo

[JanMichael]

16. Once again...They had the 6 o’clock news back then?

That's a shocker.

I'll make myself clear then. It's not about the "old west" it's about today, it's about lynching, it's about 9-11, it's about the gangsta culture, and it alludes to those that ought to get some of the old west lovin'.

k'?

[liberalpress]

26. The six o'clock news reminds the viewer...

...how it used to be done. It neither advocates nor endorses the behavior, merely describes it. But beleive what you want. You will anyway.

[JanMichael]

29. As will you apparently.

Ciao.

[beyurslf]

33. It's not about the Old West.

It's about today and bringing some of that Old West "justice" to those who deserve it. He was pretty clear who that is.

[Misinformed01]

35. The lyrics romanticize racist, vigilante justice

It's amazing to me that DUers will go out of their way to bash the South, and yet will defend this stupid, racist Toby Keith song--

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. Lynching

While lynching was clearly practiced against blacks in the South, in the West it was much more democratic. If you stole horses or cattle, you might not even get a trial.

This song, much like the bible, calls for justice. (Blessed are the seekers of justice...) However, it calls for a particularly permanent brand of justice for evil doers. While certainly advocating vigilante acts, it doesn't advocate racist ones.

[Misinformed01]

64. Texas seceded from the Union in 1861

Maybe you missed my post above with the information on the history of lynchings in Texas.

I strongly suggest that you take a refresher course in US History.

[theboss]

66. Toby Keith is from Oklahoma

Are you hung up on Texas, beacuse of the lyric "all the rope in Texas."

I think that's there because it's tough to rhyme Oklahoma.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. I actually know U.S. history pretty well

While Texas seceded, ALL low Southern states did so. Texas has been IN the U.S. about 150 years and seceded only four. More importantly, you might try reading the words of the actual song.

The SONG clearly refers to evil doers as targets of the justice it advocates.

[theHandpuppet]

79. Here's some history for you...

Since Keith is referring to the tales told to him by his ancestors, here's a site detailing the history of lynchings in Texas. Most of these lynchings were indeed racially motivated:

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/LL/jgl1.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. Toby Keith

Is a singer. He is not a folksinger of old chronicling actual events. He a pop creation. As such, he makes up his songs by and large. And that means, he ain't talkin' 'bout the real world. In his mind, he's envisioning a posse going after bad guys in some western.

Thankfully, in those westerns, we were seldom the bad guys.

No, as a term, African-Americans don't get to claim "lynching" as their own.

[theHandpuppet]

104. Reread his lyrics...

He is, in fact, drawing upon this "mythology" of the Old West to refashion a tale relevant to current-day events and/or society, one which can resonate with a modern audience.

Furthermore, nowhere did I write that African-Americans have some proprietary claim to the term "lynching", but since it was you who claimed to know a bit about history and made reference in your post to historical events, then please don't dismiss my own historical notations as irrelevant. Or is historical fact only admissable when YOU make a contribution?

Frankly, I suspect Keith didn't intend for his song to have racial overtones -- I think he's simply an incredibly stupid Neanderthal insecure of his manhood and totally ignorant of history. I'm sure his simplistic view of the world really does resemble those in the comic books.

[Misinformed01]

109. A damned shame

Yours is the best post on this thread, and people are going to miss it because it is stuck up here at the top--

[theHandpuppet]

121. Thanks...

I was simply trying to make a point that even if Toby Keith is drawing upon a mythology of the "Old West" which resonates with him, one cannot dismiss the fact that at least some of his audience will have a completely different and yet legitimate interpetation of his tale-telling. In fact, since Keith's knowledge of the "Old West" seems to be based upon too many Lone Ranger reruns rather than actual history, those who may take offense at this song have a valid beef. The FACT that a majority of lynchings in Texas and the antebellum South were committed against blacks and other people of color (and prior to the Civil War, abolitionist whites) CANNOT be ignored.

Mr. Keith's ignorance notwithstanding, that pain is real -- even if the true history of lynchings has been whitewashed of its racist roots.

[Muddleoftheroad]

124. There is truth to that

But words do change their meaning over time.

I am sure Gypsies get offended when people say "gyped" even though almost no one realizes the word refers to Gypsies. I am sure "getting off Scot free" or "Welshing on a bet" also offend people with those backgrounds. Again, however, I doubt most understand the power of those words.

Lynching has taken on a variety of meanings since its inception with Captain William Lynch and his neighbors in 1780. To blacks, it means one thing -- the KKK lynching a black man. It conjures up a very special image -- nightriders on horses, torches ablaze with a lone black man hanging until he dies.

It is an image that our race will carry for centuries. It is hard to forget. Hell, it's even hard to envision enough to type it.

But it is NOT the image most whites have. Their image is grounded in Hollywood where it is rustlers and horse thieves who are lynched.

When they see the word, they see it as it was originally intended -- as a reaction to a justice system that is overburdened and focused not on guilt or innocence, but process. They see Charles Bronson in the "Death Wish" movies, taking down bad guys with ease and moral clarity that real life seldom provides.

That is the gulf that this thread seeks to overcome.

[Solomon]

135. Wow. Not only have you made yourself the official voice of blacks in

america, but now you speak for white people too. Fantastic. Great man.

[Muddleoftheroad]

142. I'm a voice for me

And like everyone else in this thread and this site, I seek to understand or comment on the world.

[theHandpuppet]

123. By the way....

I think you might find this site of interest and pertinent to the discussion at hand:

http://edstrong.blog-city.com/read/402450.htm

[0007]

127. Bravo!

[Ripley]

80. Not really.

There were almost as many lynchings in Indiana in the 1940's-1950's as in the south. Every state in America had lynchings. There are many pictures to document this...they were in an exhibit in Atlanta recently.

Edit: I meant to include "black" lynchings by white people.

[Solomon]

134. Well it certainly calls for the kind of justice you have

consistently advocated, but you need to look up some statistics, before you keep making statements about who was lynched in the west. Again, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't like all those hollywood westerns you watched as a kid.

[Muddleoftheroad]

144. The kind of justice I advocate?

The kind of justice I advocate? What do you mean specifically?

[formernaderite]

145. Well put....geez people it's country music...of course it's dated.

although country music is a celebration of the old, there certainly are country stars trying to get a reaction from their lyrics. Contrary to what many non-country music listeners think, country is not the same thing as southern music.
I swear, the politically correct garbage that some on the left constantly groan about gets on my nerves. You want freedom of speech? It's ugly, okay? I like Toby's music, even if some of his lyrics are way over the top...it's kind of like rap...I enjoy much of that too, and there's plenty who think NWA, Snoop's, or Eminem's lyrics are offensive.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

6. while i can't stand toby keith, this song doesn't come off as racist to me

what exactly is racist about the song? to me it seems to be a song about rembering how things were done in the old days whatever that means. to me it just seems like a cowboy song. yes it is a bit crass in it's idea of justice, but i don't find it to be "racist". just my opinion.

[Jane Roe]

58. Agree

I understand that it is possible that he is talking in "code" to people already well-versed in the ways of racism. However, I can't see anything overtly wrong in the printed lyrics -- anything that might turn a non-racist into a racist. Therefore, I find the speech pretty acceptable (but shallow from a fair criminal justice point of view).

Ditto for that Johnny Hart BC with the outhose door slam.

On edit: Still, FUTK. Natalie Maines, your music sucks, but you rule.

[Lars39]

7. I read it as an ode to wild west justice

that is going to be interpreted by the red neck crowd a leeetle differently. Tacitly gives go ahead to vigilante lynchings. And everyone knows the most recent lynchings were against blacks. The song promotes hate.

[mars_clover]

9. Not racist...

I also see it as a "Wild West" song. It is a song about vigilante justice, but you are reading stuff into it if you think it is racist. It doesn't mention any specific group of people as the target for the vigilante justice - just "bad guys".

Clover

[JanMichael]

11. I didn't know that there was a 6 o’clock news broadcast...

...back during the goldrush.

Interesting.

[Lars39]

12. But because of the media, it is mostly black faces as the bad guys

on the 6 o'clock news.

[Katarina]

25. My thoughts..

It doesn't mention any specific group of people as the target for the vigilante justice - just "bad guys".

And just who exactly are the "bad guys"? Some would say that those of us who are against the smirk in office are the "bad guys". The words to this song made my skin crawl. It does nothing but promote hate and violence.

[veganwitch]

21. and that definately deserves and "ode"

yes ladies and gentlement lets have a moment of silence for those grand ole' days, now gone, when you could lynch a black man fer lookin' at yur woman.

[Lars39]

31. A hankering for the old days.....

seems to be one of the code phrases, doesn't it?

*We need to get this country back to the days when it was moral and decent!* said Trent Lott. :eyes:

[Misinformed01]

39. Hey, Lars...here's an idea

Maybe people would "get this" if it were a Southern Bashing thread!

DUers seem to understand the implications of racism ONLY when it involves the Confederate flag, or certain other buzznames such as "Lott," "Strom," or "Jesse."

[Lars39]

44. Weird, isn't it ?

Arrogant white guy advocating lynching in a song, doesn't raise any hackles? What's the quote, "None so blind as those who won't see?" ?

[Misinformed01]

47. This is the strangest thread I have ever seen on DU

I have to assume at this point that the subject of racism only draws a DUvlovian drool when when the aforementioned buzzwords are added.

[Lars39]

52. Looks that way.

Willie seems to be confusing 'em. :silly:

[ugarte]

10. It's amazing

how angry this jerk is. What's he got to be angry about? Millions in the bank, a life of fame and privilege most people can only dream about.

All I can think of, is maybe he lost his health insurance and that's why he's so pissed off.

Riiiight.

[liberalpress]

15. Actually...

... Toby has mixed feelings about the war... like many of us. And during a recent interview complained that he had mentioned that many times, but the press refuses to report it. That is what he is angry about.

[salin]

71. so will the media show up as another target for lynching

in his next song?

There is anger - and there is... sickness. Wishing for vigilanti justice that was more often than not more prone to be the 'answer' for people of color than for white folks accused of similar actions - strikes me as just sick. He gets no pity from me that he feels he has been misrepresented in the press. He speaks pretty freely in his lyrics. As he has the free speech to voice it - we have the free speech to discuss (and criticize, and claim *gasp* that we might hear it as racist).

[DevilsAdvocate2]

19. Angry indeed

The same could be said about Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand. Do people only have a right to be angry when it's a point of view we agree with?

[mac56]

24. People can be angry whenever they choose.

We can also disagree with them whenever we choose.

[ugarte]

28. Of course not

but they're angry at our government. Toby Keith only sounds incoherent and angry at the world: "...a boot up your ass...it's the American way..."

Or maybe he's just a misunderstood sensitive guy.

[mac56]

30. "A boot up your ass...the American way..."

It could be a simple plea for understanding.

/sarcasm

[prolesunited]

88. Last time I checked

They weren't talking about lynching people or longing for the "good old days" of vigilante justice.

BIG difference there!

If any of those people you mentioned supported taking such actions, I certainly wouldn't support them.

BTW, the media deliberately silenced their voices. They give Toby Keith a platform.

[theboss]

27. So, if I'm rich, I can't be angry?

I mean, I have a good job, a great family, and good friends. And I'm angry about things in this country. I'm not a millionaire, but I'd like to be one. And I plan on being angry then too.

[ugarte]

32. Anger at injustice is always a good thing

I haven't heard that from Toby Keith.

[theboss]

18. It's a vigilante justice song

Hank Williams, Jr has only written about 400 of these in his career. And I'm sure if I think about it, Johnny Cash has a few of them in the archives (though HE is probably the bad guy in his). It's just a country-western tradition.

I'm no Toby Keith fan, but this song is actually one of his better ones. Besides, it has Willie in it.

[Devil Dog Dem]

23. Declaring this song 'racist' is a stretch.

A hell of a stretch.

[laylah]

34. I personally do NOT

believe this song is racist. Yes, the lynching and referrals to "my Grandpappy told my pappy" hearkening back to "those days" could be confused as racist implications. I, however, because of the "gangsta" reference and the representation of the crime as being modern and the criminal being white, believe it NOT to be racist. Also, I have followed and loved Willie Nelson for nigh on 30 years and there is NO way that he would participate in such a production, imVho.

Jenn

[mac56]

36. I too am a loyal Willie fan.

That's why this performance disappointed and saddened me.

Cheer me up, Jenn. What do you think he was thinking here?

[laylah]

48. Well Mac

I'll do my best. As I said, I can see how the lyrics could be misconstrued. I am as PC (by nature!) as anyone else. I must/should be to be a Social Worker. I could be completely off base but I think that Willie was thinkin' how much fun it would be to perform with his old bud Toby. In my humble opinion, I believe we could find something wrong with anything if we dug deeply enough. Maybe I'm just not paying attention...I just believe it is what it is. You know the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" kinda thing.

Hope this cheers you a bit :toast:

Jenn

[theboss]

56. Willie said he liked the title

I saw an interview with him. Toby Keith called him and asked him to do a duet. Willie asked what the song was. TK said, "Whiskey for My Men/Beer for My Horses." Willie said, "Hell, that's a great title. It doesn't matter what the rest of the lyrics are."

I do like the title.

[mac56]

63. Hmmm....

"Hell, that's a great title. It doesn't matter what the rest of the lyrics are."

Wonder if he'd record this one? It has a great title too.

Let the eagle soar
Like she's never soared before
From rocky coast
To golden shore
Let the mighty eagle soar

So with healing in her wings
As the land beneath her sings
"Only God, no other kings"
Let the mighty eagle soar

This country's far too young to die
Though she's cried a bit for what we've put her through
She's soared above the lifted lamp
That guards sweet freedom's door
In the dews, the damps, the watchfires
Of a nation torn by war
Oh she's far too young to die
You can see it in her eye
She's not yet begun to fly
It's time to let the mighty eagle soar

[Lars39]

37. So the gangsters on the six o'clock news are white, Ken Lay types?

Now it makes sense. :eyes:

[theboss]

38. In the video, the bad guy is white

Just sayin . .

[JanMichael]

42. Let's hope that those easily enraged types watch CMT.

I'm sure they all do.

As to the video I haven't seen it but I can imagine that TK would have to be completely daft to use a person of color as the "bad guy".

[theboss]

TK is also in drag

The video is strange to say the least. Toby, Willie, and some other dude are underover cops trying to nab a serial killer who apparently kills prostitutes. Willie is some sort of old master back at the station. Anyway, Keith and his partner go undercover and one of them nearly gets killed by the bad guy until Willie - all 125 years and 108 pounds of him - shows up to save the day. I believe a horse is somehow involved.

[laylah]

50. TK in drag?

I've seen the video. I thought it was the "other guy" while Toby fought the "gangster", Willie backed him up. Maybe I'm seeing things :silly:, it wouldn't be the first time.

Jenn

[theboss]

54. Maybe you are right

I've only seen it once or twice. I do remember Willie having to save the day, which is the funniest concept ever.

If I'm in a life or death struggle, I think Willie Nelson is the last person I'd want getting my back. Yes, you have the seconal-crazed Hell's Angel. I've got the high, skinny 72-year-old.

[liberalpress]

77. Ah-HA

The song is obiously prejudiced against prostitutes, since in the video, prostitues are being killed. It's a thinly disguised code for the religiousright to kill all prostitutes. Toby Keith, that murdering bastard!

[Devlzown]

40. I can't stand the song, but I don't think

it's specifically racist. It's glorifying the "good old days" when the men got to jump on their horses and form posses to hunt down bad guys. Then they got to meet up at the saloon after they strung up the bad guys and slapped each other on the back and bragged about what good old boys they were. Toby's bemoaning the loss of this juvenile male bonding ritual.

[Bunny]

I don't see is as racist so much as stupid.

And blacks were not the only ones lynched - there were plenty of necktie parties in the old West, what with cattle rustlers and all. Probably a lot of them were white!

Also, Tim McVeigh blew up a building.

I think it's just a call for good old-fashioned vigilanteism. And, WTF was Willie thinking?

[theboss]

41. Let's kick it old school

Merle Haggard thinks TK is a pussy. (And Merle's biggest supporter was your friend and mine - Johnny Cash).

We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
We don't take no trips on LSD
We don't burn no draft cards down on Main Street;
We like livin' right, and bein' free.

I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all

We don't make a party out of lovin';
We like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.

And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.

Leather boots are still in style for manly footwear;
Beads and Roman sandals won't be seen.
Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
And the kids here still respect the college dean.

We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.

[JanMichael]

43. Where's the rope? Where's the violence?

Did he lynch a hippie?

I would call Merle's song anything else than some local loving bluster.

[theboss]

45. I wish I could find the lyrics to "I Got Rights" by Hank Williams, Jr

That song is scary. It's about a judge letting of the guy who killed the singers wife and son and the singer going to a pawn shop to get a gun to kill the man.

This is a pretty nasty passage in one his biggest hits too:

I had a good friend in New York City
He never called me by my name, just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land
And his taught him to be a businessman
He used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights
And I’d send him some homemade wine

But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For 43 dollars my friend lost his life
Id love to spit some beechnut in that dudes eyes
And shoot him with my old 45
Cause a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

[ugarte]

46. Merle was being honest, and I think he mellowed with time

I'm willing to give Keith the benefit of the doubt, too. Maybe a little of Willie will rub off on him.

About the kindest thing I can say about Keith right now is that when he sang that bit about the boot in your ass being the American way, ironically he hit it right on the money. Unfortunately, historically it does happen to be the American way.

[theboss]

49. I'm not a Toby Keith fan at all

On the contrary, I think most of his songs are crap. But I find nothing sillier than (to quote Bill Maher) "fake outrage" by anyone over song lyrics. I thought it was ridiculos with "Cop Killer" and "Fuck the Police" (which actually were flat-out endorsements of murdering people).

And I certainly think it is silly to get upset over right-wing country lyrics and vigilante justice songs. There have only been 100,000 country songs in this vein over the years.

We're not Toby Keith's audience. And I imagine his audience would be horrified at some of the songs I like.

[JanMichael]

51. What? I just think it's racist. Nothing fake there at all.

Not upset either, just wanted to point it out, and fill my weekly quota of big threads:evilgrin:

[Rich Hunt]

128. "Okie"

Merle Haggard later said he wrote it from the perspective of someone like his father. I dunno if that's true or not, but there you go ...

He's been very critical of Bush.

[K-W]

53. Bear for my Horses?... only rednecks

What was the song after this called? Trailers with Mullets?

[MadAsHell]

55. This is pure pandering and really quite ironic ...

I saw a tribute program for Willie Melson on one the way-up-the-dial cable networks (A&E or Bravo, I think). It had Toby Keith and another singer (I don't follow C&W) singing a song about the dangers of smoking something from Willie's stash. The song was really quite funny.

Must be his ideas of "A man had to answer for the wicked that he done" don't include those nasty little drug laws.

[redqueen]

57. No it's not racist

For heaven's sake... do we have to substantiate every right-wing smear against liberals on this site?

:eyes:

"fucking hick white trash"

Now that's racist. But it's okay -- it's only racist against white people. That's completely acceptable to liberals, right?

Liberals only get upset when there's even a hint of racism against anyone who's not white.

Do I understand the thinking here? Someone help me out.

[JanMichael]

73. "fucking hick white trash" is certainly racist.

"Now that's racist."

Yes it is.

"But it's okay -- it's only racist against white people."

No it isn't.

"That's completely acceptable to liberals, right?"

Not that I'm particularly Liberal but no.

[redqueen]

75. That was sarcasm

Sorry I didn't put the little '/sarcasm' indicator on there.

But dammit this makes me so mad. That's one thing 'reagan democrats' here are quick to point out about 'liberals' or 'democrats'. That there's this double standard with respect to 'racism'. I try, but I can't very well tell them they're wrong, can I? They'll agree with me on CEO compensation, offshore tax havens, minimum wage increases... but they grind to a halt before I get to the 'vote democratic' part because they perceive this party as being unfair in this way.

:(

[Jane Roe]

83. your sarcasm excuse is weak

You may want to reconsider your words.

[redqueen]

84. Thanks

but no thanks.

Not reconsidering my words one bit. Nor will I reconsider using sarcasm to make my point.

I do have one. Care to address it?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

87. Okay

It's sardonic.

Happy now? And I'm not racist, either. Duh.

I still have a point there to be argued. Care to address that yet? Or are you just here to ensure descriptive words are used accurately? :eyes:

[Jane Roe]

89. Sardonic is no excuse either

Here is what sardonic means:

Forced; unnatural; insincere; hence, derisive, mocking, malignant, or bitterly sarcastic

Now you have admitted that your post wasn't sarcastic. It did not seem forced, unnatural (for you) or insincere, either. So your language was not sardonic in that sense.

Your language was derisive and mocking and malignant. So it was sardonic in these senses. Just like when a white person call a black person a a fucking jigaboo. And, like when that happens, "sardonic" is not an acceptable excuse.

You should reconsider your words.

[redqueen]

96. What are you talking about?

MY language?

Do you by chance mean the racist language that another member used, earlier in the thread, which I obviously quoted?!

Honestly.

[Jane Roe]

99. I don't care if you said it or just condoned it

Those are equally racist things to do as far as I am concerned.

Everything I have said here (that hasn't been removed) would apply equally against anybody who originally made the comment.

I dream of a color blind society and I don't think we will ever get there by condoning racial slurs of any type.

[redqueen]

101. Except I didn't condone it.

:eyes:

Did you even read what I wrote?

[Jane Roe]

102. 1. You condoned it

2. Here's the proof: "Now that's racist. But it's okay "

3. You should reconsider these words.

[JanMichael]

103. If she'd used...

:eyes:

Would it have made it clear it was sarcasm?

[Jane Roe]

107. Okay, I see the sarcasm now

I honestly didn't realize that the poster was condoning in sarcasm. I have to admit that I am not that clear on what the various smiley's mean.

I would apologize except I think the burden is on the writer to make it very clear when sarcasm is being used. Failure to do that here caused me fall into a trap and waste my time (and get a deleted post) -- so I have suffered enough here.

[JanMichael]

111. I missed it the first time myself.

I thought it was a serious comment. That's the problem with messages like this.

Sometimes I state things which I find so absurd that no one could possibly take it seriously yet, time and again, someone usually does. Oh and I get moderator warnings when I get frusterated at their "mistake".

[Jane Roe]

112. I non-sarcastically appreciate the sympathy nt

[Jane Roe]

93. Sarcasm is saying the opposite of what you mean

Subject: sarcasm is saying the opposite of what you mean

were you saying that TK is the opposite of a "fucking hick white trash?" I don't think so. That is why you were not using sarcasm. Your post uses a racist insult and is therefore a racist post. We'll get to your point when you learn to suppress your racist language better.

[redqueen]

95. Look

I don't even know what you're talking about.

I am a liberal. It really irks me when some liberals do this -- kneejerk about every stupid quasi-racist crap that means nothing.

What I really despise is when these self-same liberals, the ones that care oh so much about racism and being fair to 'everybody', will trash white people with the ugliest racist comments you could hope to see.

Now, I've quoted another post on this thread with the racism against whites which I'm talking about. I see this quite often. And it never fails to fail to generate any outrage.

This is why I think that most liberals must think it's OK to be racist against whites. These kinds of comments go nearly UNNOTICED by liberals that will fume and fuss about the kind of halfa$$ed quasi racism shown in the lyrics which are the subject of this thread.

Do you have a comment about that or not?

[Jane Roe]

97. I fight racism when I hear it

That is priority one.

Compared to the racism problem, the encoded messages that may lurk in Toby Keith songs are trivial, at least to me.

Also, I don't consider one's status as a liberal to be a free pass to say racist things.

[redqueen]

98. Well I think what we have here is a major misunderstanding

We agree about the 'importance' of Toby Keith song lyrics, for one.

We agree about one's status as a liberal not giving one carte blanche to say racist things, as well.

What I'm wondering is why you didn't jump all over the post by the person that made that racist comment when you saw it, and instead jumped all over me?

[Jane Roe]

100. see post #99

[theboss]

106. You do realize that the two of you agree

I mean you are fighting with someone who agrees whit you because you apparently don't get sarcasm.

[Jane Roe]

110. I get sarcasm when it is sufficiently clear

that didn't happen here

[redqueen]

118. LOL - well excuse the hell out of me

for failing to meet your guidelines for what constitutes 'sufficient clarity'.

:silly:

[Jane Roe]

119. Apology accepted

thanks for taking the time to let me know

[Rich Hunt]

125. for what it's worth

...I think you were perfectly clear.

I don't know why some people had a problem understanding you.

[redqueen]

131. Thanks

:)

I usually don't have such trouble getting my message across. Glad to know it was an isolated occurrence.

[0007]

129. Could it also be a "bigoted" remark?

[Odallas]

59. It is a song about vigilante justice...

...for an audience I know very well. I live among them. They are frustrated, scared, and have a great need to blame someone for the problems that confront their lives. While you and I hear Toby Keith's musical perspective on current events, others may hear a call to action. I don't know Toby Keith, I can't say if he is a racist or not, but most of the people I know who listen to his music are racist.

( I dig that veganwitch! )

[Logansquare]

65. We can hang Ken Lay?

"We’ve got too much corruption.."

[DrWeird]

68. What's the deal with country western in general?

I mean it's the twenty first fucking century. It's like seeing people who dress up at renaissance fairs or walk around in Starfleet uniforms. I don't have a big problem with creative anachronists, but why is one considered better than the other?

[theboss]

70. Jeans, boots, and big hats?

Is it any weirder than baggy pants with your underwear hanging out, gold teeth, and a freaking chalice?

[ArkDem]

69. "Beer For My Horses."

The two men sing about our current justice system and how it compares to the way it used to be in the old west. In today's times, it seems like criminals do not pay nearly as much as they used to as Willie sings about how criminals were taken care of back in the day, and how now there is violence and corruption just about everywhere. "Justice is the one thing you should always find. You got to draw a hard line" is only part of the classic chorus. At the end of a hard day, no matter how you caught your bad guys, you get together and revel in the fact you helped the people and you drink whiskey, while the horses get beer.

[liberalpress]

74. Give it up ArkDem..

... there are people who will discount anything Toby Keith says because of some misperception they have about Toby Keith. To them all country music, especially Toby Keith country music is racist. Just like all candidates (except THEIR candidate)are unworthy.

[ArkDem]

76. I wasn't aware 'bad guys' was a race

.

[JanMichael]

78. Wrong. The Mavericks are one of my favorites.

Mary Chapin Carpenter is another along with Dwight Yoakim.

So take the broad brush and break it.

Also WTF does this have to do with candidates?

[Misinformed01]

82. LiberalPress...here's a good one for you from Garth Brooks

I played this CD less than three days ago, so I assume that shoots down another gross generalization of yours-or at least I hope it does.

"We Shall be Free"

This ain't comin' from no prophet
Just an ordinary man
When I close my eyes I see
The way this world shall be
When we all walk hand in hand

When the last child cries for a crust of bread
When the last man dies for just words that he said
When there's shelter over the poorest head
We shall be free

When the last thing we notice is the color of skin
And the first thing we look for is the beauty within
When the skies and the oceans are clean again
Then we shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straight, walk proud
'Cause we shall be free
When we're free to love anyone we choose
When this world's big enough for all different views
When we all can worship from our own kind of pew
Then we shall be free
We shall be free

We shall be free
Have a little faith
Hold out
'Cause we shall be free

And when money talks for the very last time
And nobody walks a step behind
When there's only one race and that's mankind
Then we shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straight, walk proud, have a little faith, hold out
We shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straight, have a little faith

We shall be free

[Merlin]

90. Great lyrics. Wonder why Garth Brooks has no music on iTunes?

Just looked for this there. None of his albums are on it.

[theboss]

108. Everyone has his records already?

Ahh . . Garth.

I will never understand his sales in a million years.

[liberalpress]

120. If you check my post I said "some people"

...sorry if you mistook that to be you. Second, many of the people here dissing Toby Keith have admitedly, never seen hime or heard his music, but have dismissed it as generally. "How Do You Lke Me Now" for example is a song about "a guy" not necessarily Toby Keith. Johnny Cash didn't really shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die, nor was he ever (to my knowledege) actually stuck in Folsom prison. It's a song. Cash was the artist interpreting the song. These aren't necessarily autobiographies.

[LizW]

81. What a coincidence

We were talking in another forum just in the last couple of days about the vindictive, hateful, borderline misogynist lyrics of another of Keith's songs. (How Do You Like Me Now?) I've never heard any of this guy's music and never laid eyes on him, but his songs are distasteful.

Anyone remember Elton John and Bernie Taupin's parody of redneck songs, "Texan Love Song"? We used to sing it not realizing it was a parody. "Goddam--IT, you're all gonna die!" :7

[mac56]

85. another coincidence =

Bernie Taupin has co-written at least one song with Toby Keith.

Add on edit: it's called "Gimme Eight Seconds".

[Merlin]

94. It praises Vigilante Justice -- a major conundrum in the American psyche.

We claim to base our society on the sacred Rule of Law. But in reality, we secretly applaud the hooded, secret killers who rid the community of a perceived evil-doer.

America has many internal contradictions. Another example. We love Jesus. But we despise those who would--as he preached and practiced--turn the other cheek.

This is the kind of song I find reprehensible. It urges people with limited judgement to act on their impulses and, without a fair trial, take the law into their own hands by murdering those they suspect of "evil." It's a sick outgrowth of the terror inspired by 9-11 and perpetuated by George Bush and his evil maladministration.

[Stuckinthebush]

105. No

That doesn't mean Keith isn't a racist - I would expect that he has some racist tendencies. I think this song is an "old west" remembrance anthem. The gangsters line is about organized crime. He would have said "gangstas" otherwise.

[TexasMexican]

113. Not Racist

Its about the old west.

Hell I can think of various people of all races who I think should be lynched.

[Solomon]

137. But, when you think of the word "lynch", tell us honestly what comes

to mind?

[Hammie]

115. LMFAO

Really. The song isn't racist, but alot of the posters on seem to be. The guy sings about hanging criminals and the first reaction alot of you have is that if he's talking about criminals he must be talking about black people! And then to top it off, ole Toby is excoriated for racism. Hold up a damn mirror people.


Hammie out.


IBTL

[TexasMexican]

116. Good point.

n/t

[redqueen]

117. Exactly!

This is the kind of 'soft racism' that the middle / right seems to correctly label the left with all the freaking time. And what do we do about it? Avert our eyes, apparently.

[liberalpress]

122. Redqueen..

You are repeatedly making sense here. If you continue along that line we will have to respectfuly ask you to leave the thread. We simply cannot tolerate that sort of behavior here.

[redqueen]

133. LOL sorry

Are you sure I wasn't just being sarcastic, though? ;)

[liberalpress]

138. Or is it sardonic...

... I have trouble with that one

[DrWeird]

143. LOL.

Really. So many people are so ignorant about black history. Actually it's really not funny. Jesus, they probably didn't even read through this thread. It's not that I expect closet racists to be intelligent human beings though.

Maybe TK would have to sing about rounding people up in concentration camps and forcing them to march into gas chambers before they get it.

[Rich Hunt]

126. what's really disturbing

is that Mr. TK thinks that hanging is an appropriate punishment for stealing a car.

[Solomon]

139. It is if you're black.

:evilgrin:

[1a2b3c]

136. Do people really think this song is racist?

And it got 130+ posts.

[liberalpress]

140. If I said what I was thinking...

... about wasting this much time on a topic as ridiculous as this, the mods would delete my post and give me a warning.

[Forkboy]

141. People people people!

This is far too long of a thread about Toby.He's not even worth the thought some of you put into it :)