Concerning Evolution - Is "God" the answer?

[bleedingheart]

With all the talk about teaching evolution in schools, I am reminded of something that happened years ago when my brother and I were in public school.

My brother was in 7th grade and had a really good history teacher (Mr. H.), one of those guys who gets all excited about the Teapot Dome Scandal..etc.
About a month or two into the school year they got a new student, a kid called Glen. Glen came to school every day dressed in a suit and tie, which made him a bit of an oddball but he was actually a nice kid....however little did we know that Glen was a fundamentalist Christian. How did we find this out? Well it wasn't until the first history test.

Mr. H. gave a history test and Glen wrote his name on the test and then just sat there and did nothing. He didn't answer any questions or write anything else on the test.

When Mr. H. asked him what he was doing, kids who aren't writing during test time stick out like sore thumbs. Glen replied that he didn't need to take the test because "God knew that he knew the answers".

Now my brother was in that class when that happened and while the room was silent to begin with...it became as silent as the grave as every child's pencil stopped moving. Mr. H was taken aback, by all accounts, but he replied cooly to Glen..."Well God knows that you are going to get an F, so I hope that your parents will find that acceptable".

Glen's parents decision was to remove him from him from the public school and place him in a fundamentalist christian school.

Now I want to ask, if we remove evolution from school..what else will we remove?

Will we think its acceptable for kids to answer the questions, what makes the sun shine? and what makes the rain? with the answer "God"?

In fact, my son went to an afterschool program for kids whose parents work and one of program workers was a fundamentalist who kept preaching to the kids. In fact she got my son repeating how God made the trees, and God made the rain..etc.. I got really pissed off because while I believe in God I know that it is the Water Cycle and how our earth works that makes the night and day and the rain...etc if God plays a role in it I am not sure...but I don't want people taking complicated and fascinating processes and simplifying them into the answer is "God".

[Dark Star]

1. If we remove evolution from school,

just turn out the lights and let's all go straight back to the 19th century. What an awful thought.

Another reason for ABB!

[BlueEyedSon]

2. God may be "why", but science is "how"

I wonder if they let Glen get away with that test crap in the Fundie school?

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. I tell my kids "God"

when they ask me about how and why things are, but I also try to give them the science too.

[bleedingheart]

4. that is what we wondered, however I do know that a young gal

that was in my 7th grade class was doing horribly in school. She didn't read at our grade level and was flunking math. Her parents put her in this particular school and she supposedly graduated at 16 because she was so "gifted". Now I would have perhaps believed this story but its hard to prove since she was married at 17 and proceeded to have kids and never worked or went on to a higher education.
I do remember going to her home once and I was shocked at how her dad demonized her and her mother at the dinner table, but they did say "grace" before the meal started... so I guess he gets points for that.

[3rdParty]

9. great answer! Science is like looking into the mind of God.

[rman]

39. which is herecy to many fundies. n/t

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[Quahog]

17. Amen

This "science versus faith" thing may have been a hot commodity during the Enlightenment, but thoughtful Christians have long since resolved the problem. It's not resolvable, though, for non-thinking fundies who see all aspects of the Bible as historically accurate, or worse, view the Bible as a "complete" history of the universe.

It's sad to see people reading the Bible as a historiograph, and missing the depth of the philosophy it contains because they're so concerned with how many days actually passed between particular events, or how big the ark had to be to hold all of those animals, or what kind of fish swallowed Jonah. But then, there is a functioning sector of our society which operates within this minimalist, highly pragmatic and ultimately earth-bound conceptualization of God as revealed in the Bible, and they seem to get along OK in what is certainly a segregated subculture.

I have known people like this, having been very close friends with a Jehovah's Witness for many years (she has since recovered). Education which is not theocentric is indeed rejected, which severely limits one's ability to excel in the outside world. But the support within the community is overwhelming, and communities like this are by their nature extremely controlling. Obedience to authority and an ability to memorize scripture are highly prized personality traits. Genuine reflection, application of reason, or attempts to explain what it all means result in punishment. I think this is why a lot of people in these communities end up as unskilled laborers. The sort of higher education that leads to advancement in our society is bound to expose too many inconsistencies in the fundie world view, so people in that subculture either remain uneducated, unskilled and economically disadvantaged, or else they leave the subculture.

I approach this stuff with my kids the way I do all things, I tell them what I believe, and know that as they mature they will sort things out for themselves. My parents are right-wing conservative GOP atheists, who never took me to church once. I am an adult convert to Catholicism, very active in my parish ministry, and politically oriented somewhere between Ted Kennedy and Che Guevara. I also have three college degrees. So go figure. I have no problem with aligning faith in God, belief in Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind, political liberalism, and application of reason to things scientific (I work in computer information science). But I grant you, it took more than blind obedience and two minutes of thought to get where I am. Thoughtfulness and mindfulness are becoming such scarce commodities in our society. It's so much easier to just do what someone tells you and punch the guy who challenges you.

But now I'm rambling. Glen got an F in public school, maybe he got an A in fundie school, but you can bet that nowadays he's running the register at Wal-Mart if he's lucky.

[Lars39]

5. With fundamentalists,

everything is framed by the bible. Got a question about ants in your unit study? What does the bible have to say about the subject?

I've seen it/heard it. Whatever is not in the bible ceases to exist for them. Revisionist history is rampant with fundies, too.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Noah's sons fathered the races of the world

I hate that one. But it's there in the fundy history books and hubby had to teach it when he was working in a Christian school.

[Lars39]

8. I was thinking of more recent history,

where Thomas Jefferson has been revised to be a christian, this country was founded as a christian nation, etc.

[Az]

27. According to the bible

Thomas Jefferson is damned. Jefferson edited the bible down to his own interpretation. This is expressly forbidden in Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you neither shall ye diminish ought from it. So much for the fundimentalist stance.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Well, then a lot of folks are in trouble over that one

[Lars39]

31. They overlook his edition because it doesn't fit with their goals.

All the founding fathers had to be christian for this to be a christian nation. The US backslid, all will be forgiven as long as we return to our roots and become a theocracy. Ugh. Sarcasm off now.

Look at some of the christian homeschooling curriculum sites if you want to see the future of public school textbooks, if the fundamentalists have their way. :shudder:

[leesa]

7. Thinking is evil, don't you know?

These people are mighty dangerous (and lazy).

[booisblu]

10. Sounds like brainwashing

If the answer to everything is God, then there are no need for questions. Basically, these kids are being taught to march in lockstep already. Has anyone here ever followed one of these fundy families from birth to adulthood? And if so, what was the result of this type of enviroment on the child in the long run? Oh wait, that's what gave us an Ashcroft! But seriously, anyone here see this type of upbringing up close?

[RainDog]

20. yes. I was raised as one

luckily for me, I realized in high school that I was being brainwashed. there was a huge crisis in my family because I went my own way, and I was disowned for a while.

my sibs are still fundies. they make a lot of money via engineering (which doesn't require someone to address issues of science and critical thought in order to do a job).

they surround themselves with people who think like they do and enjoy their lives. at the same time, they have children who, with crises of faith, have contemplated suicide, or gone off on major tangents on their way to freedom of thought. They were also "disowned" for a while, and one of them lived with me until he could graduate high school.

At the moment, I am trying to reconnect with my sibs, but for a while I could not bear to talk to them because I of my disgust with Bush, which they did not want to hear.

Even so, in order for us to be together, we have to have an unspoken agreement not to broach certain topics. If they cross that line with me, they do not get polite silence.

[bleedingheart]

23. that is so sad...to be disowned

how is that christian love?

[RainDog]

28. "shunning" has a long tradition in all types of fundie religions

the best thing that ever happened to me when I was younger was the opportunity to go overseas and stay in the homes of other people in other nations as a "student ambassador."

I cried when we returned to America because I knew what I was coming home to.

I could never live in the south for these very reasons. I would never want my children to have to grow up in the pervasive fundie environment that pollutes the south.

[booisblu]

33. So then, they have found a level

of happiness? But you, who questioned things, you suffered for it. Now that you have grown and have seen life far more clearly, would you say you have reached a level of happiness or contentment also? I find it odd that more of your sibs didn't question the "faith" more, and I'm truly sorry you had to go through what you did. I've also been disowned, but it was more over the gay issue, but I guess that falls at religion's door also!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. I bet it's because Rain Dog lived overseas

That experience has a way of changing people's lives.

[RainDog]

40. yes, but my happiness is different

actually, several members of my family (including me and my fundie sib) have had episodes of depression, so please don't think that I mean to say they are blubbering idiots of happiness all the time.

this will sound obnoxious, but here goes anyway...

I was the "smart" one in my family...I was chosen for a gifted and talented program in elementary school, I was Phi Beta Kappa and won academic awards (and was nominated for a Rhodes Scholarship...but you can't be married to even apply..not that I would have gotten one.)

I was also involved in the arts, and needless to say, that has another set of issues.

I happen to think that intelligence includes acknowledging that being a happy idiot is not necessarily a worthwhile goal. So sometimes I'm happy and sometimes I'm not, and life is good no matter what.

Realizing what a magnificent universe we live in, seeing the wonder that is life at the microscopic and macroscopic level...experiencing the transcendence that music, art and literature can provide...That's my "happiness."

I have to say that since Bush was elected, I have been more outraged more often than I can ever remember. But I've also been paying attention to politics more than ever before since the soft coup of 2000.

However, I would never trade one day of unhappiness or difficulty that I have faced in return for a mindless happiness...mindless happiness is the equivalent of brain dead, to me.

Mindful happiness-- that's what satisfies my soul.

[Az]

41. As Socrates said

The unexamined life is not worth living. Glad you found the courage to examine yours.

[RainDog]

43. condolences on your own "shunning"

I remember parents, when I was growing up, who were desperate to make their son "not gay."

It was a losing battle.

But I remember feeling so sorry for that guy. On balance, my situation was so much easier.

If it's any consolation, just remember that until recently (and some not even now, probably) too many fundies were on the wrong side of the civil rights issue for blacks.

I heard someone comment on tv this weekend that back in the day, southern fundies would be outraged to see a black person on tv.

Although they take a long time to realize they are wrong (and they never admit it) maybe it helps to remind yourself that you are on the front line of the new call for full citizenship.

You know, in the 60s in the south, women in most places were not even allowed to own property in their own name if they were married. This was, of course, "god's law, not man's."

Funny how they've forgotten that as well.

obviously some nutcases like Coulter advocate a return to slavery for females, but even my sister and sister-in-law would not support that idea.

[Az]

34. My sympathies to you

That is the nature of an aggressive belief system. One of the methods of trying to keep individuals beholden to the group is the threat of shunning. This is not nearly as effective as it once was. Shunning could be the equivalent of a death sentence in older times.

Currently it serves as a social threat and as a defense mechanism once an individual is infected with contrary ideas that may be destructive to the belief system.

[RainDog]

11. as we allow religion to take control via Bush policies

and his minions at the state and local levels,

we will eventually become as backward as Afghanistan, and Europe will eat us for lunch and une petite gouter as more and more intellectuals find America an inhospitable place for real scholarship (this is already happening, in fact). Richard Florida recently wrote about this, but he missed lots of the actual reasons, or chose to soften the blow. (His book about The Rise of the Creative Class also fails to understand the real issues for artists in America as well...who attract "cultural creatives" who then drive artists out by raising prices...but I digress...)

It has long been axiomatic that American Universities sustain a reputation at the graduate level, with students from around the world (including Americans).

Bush has created such a nasty and brutish vision of America, scholars are looking elsewhere for places which welcome their contributions to a society.

As Florida accurately noted in his book, though, the well-educated and higher income Americans prefer diversity, in lifestyle (i.e. acceptance of and association with other ethnic groups, gays, nonconformists and uppity women).

Bush's entire "social" agenda is predicated on white fundamentalist hatred and coercion of anyone who is not them.

Americans are considering emigration, at least by word-of-mouth measure, at a rate greater than any time I can recall in the history of this nation.

Unlike Pol Pot, Bush may not have to kill the intellectuals and lawyers, he can just make this such an intellectual backwater that no one will want to live here or raise children here.

[bleedingheart]

14. I have read some of what Florida says and I agree

he does miss some points especially about the fundamentalist undercurrents in the education system. I live in an area with a great school district and every election we have to fight hard to make sure that religious fundamentalists aren't elected to the board. In fact those people frighten the fiscally conservative but religiously liberal republicans that they tend to help us get Democrats elected to the board.

I fear that you are right if this trend continues...

[RainDog]

15. My ex-husband is from Europe

and he is an academic. People who used to come to America to work with him are choosing not to since Bush has been president. I am still in email contact with these people and they have told me that Bush's hostile policies are the reason they do not come here anymore.

I know of several academics who have already relocated to other countries.

I wish I could relocate. I think about it every week. That wish colors every decision I make at this time.

The public elementary school my children attended had students from 39 countries...the grandchildren of ambassadors from various countries...the grandchildren of people who had chickens running around the front yard of their farms.

Such opportunties for children to learn from each other, as well as learn in a classroom are invaluable.

These are, for the most part, children of grad students.

Grad students also provide so much cheap labor for Universities, our educational system would suffer if U's could not continue to exploit them (I don't support this exploitation, just noting its existence.)

I loathe Bush at such deep and visceral level I am surprised. I never thought I could detest one man as much as I do Bush. He will, no doubt, go down in history as the worst president since Hoover, and as equally detested by those who suffered through his corrupt era.

[Az]

18. School boards are especially targeted

This is where their speciality of stealth candidates comes into play. Someone runs on a normal platform only to reveal themself as a fundimentalist once they are on the board.

[bleedingheart]

22. and they are tenacious critters

the one fellow who did get elected was homeschooling his kids and when people found it out they were furious. He spent four years trying to undermine the board.

[RainDog]

25. Texas and California have long distorted textbook publishing

Those two huge states have long had religious extremists who have dumbed down American textbooks which are adopted across the land.

It is much more expensive to seek out and choose better textbooks when volume purchases via these large states make the textbooks they approve more affordable simply based upon economies of scale issues.

The school board stealth candidates have been operating for more than two decades now.

It's not enough for them to have their own fundie schools...they have to impose their anti-intellectualism on the entire nation.

[Az]

32. I remember one nasty story

of a school board president and other members getting together for a session and gluing all the bio books pages, that mentioned evolution, together. Other stories of school boards getting ahold of the science books and pasting stickers on the covers that insist evolution is a controvercial theory and not the only one.

[Az]

12. Coming from the opposite direction

Back in my days of HS I was in an advanced chemistry class. One day we entered the class room to find the chairs arrainged in a big circle and the words Origin of Life written on the chalk board. The teachers had decided to address this sticky issue in an open debate amongst the students (as if they were the experts). I seemed to be the only vocal proponent of evolution at the event. Most were silent but but a few challenged with creationism. The bulk of the event was...uneventful. But the next day I found a note in my chem book that read "God is real, believe or else".

I cannot be certain what will occurr if the religious right were able to evict evolution from public education. I can point to history and show that any time a dogmatic authoratative religion gains control of the secular state trouble follows.

As to goal of any philosophical/religious thought is to spread message to as many individuals as possible the nature of its tenants become important. Open permissive systems may not spread as fast but they do well with diverse open societies. Dogmatic authoratative systems are much more aggressive. Once they gain the upper hand the typically strive to force out any other belief system. This is true of political systems as much as it is true of beliefs. Thus the Dark Ages are filled with autrocities of one religious insititution bringing destruction to another.

[HereSince1628]

13. Its a plot, a huge plot, to support deregulation...

at a very foundational level evolutionary concepts account for the diversity of life on the planet....

R's and the corporate bosses DON'T want no stinking diversity or an explanation for it. Awareness of all those species just leads to regulation and impediments for business, like the endangered species act.

For the R's and the corporations its not only important to get rid of the word evolution its also important to get people to ignore natural diversity so as to facilitate its destruction.

Most state's don't require anything like _mastery_ of local flora and fauna for biology teacher prep...but boy there is plenty of that DNA technology with all its promises for products and corporate wealth...

You think I'm kidding, eh?

OK, you tell me...Why DO they put televisions inside VANS if its not to entice kids to ignore the natural world outside their windows?

Its a plot, a huge plot, conspiracies...everywhere...I'm tellin ya...look deeper...find the money connections...

[HereSince1628]

36. and possibily a ploy to get voucher$ for religious schools?

"if ya don't like it take yer kid outta public school" could just be the response they are hoping to get.

At which point they say sure. Just give us the voucher$.

[Az]

37. The reason Corporations and Religious Right teamed up

They both despise a strong central government. Able to protect and defend its citizens from them. A strong federal government sustains our rights and keeps their excesses at bay.

[Misinformed01]

16. Isn't that type of fundie, regressive thinking

the saddest, scariest personality trait you can encounter?

I told a friend of mine, who is a fundamentalist, that I just could not believe in a God that wanted us to quit thinking 2,000 years ago.

[Mari333]

19. Could someone please let these people know

that there are THOUSANDS OF CREATION STORIES from the time we stood up on our hind legs in the grasslands of Africa? for petes sake, this is mythology being dragged out and questioned, not a literal fact. It would do wonders if the schools did teach MYTHOLOGY and include the bible creation story as a very RECENT myth in that MYTHOLOGY.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=creation+stories

[bleedingheart]

21. Not only creation stories but also explanations of physical science

for example is Apollo really driving a sun chariot around so that we have the day? Technically for someone it might be the "real" answer but for the majority it isn't...but then again perhaps the Gods are messing with the Mars rovers because they are afraid we might find the mythical Olympus...

[snippy]

24. My god has no problem with evolution. After all, it was her idea.

[bleedingheart]

26. good one!

[0007]

30. What ever put this world and universe in motion, call it what you want

it won't change a thing.

Blind faith is like saying that ignorance is bliss!

[randr]

35. The utter totality of all we have discovered

through our scientific inquiry is by far more awe inspiring and indicative of "God's" immensity than any account contained in any ancient scripture. Debating the issues of creationism vs. evolutionary science is like arguing about a flat Earth while sitting on the moon.

[LeahMira]

42. Well said!

The utter totality of all we have discovered... through our scientific inquiry is by far more awe inspiring and indicative of "God's" immensity than any account contained in any ancient scripture.