Flame Away - "The World is Sick of the US talking about 9/11 and

[burythehatchet]

destroying the lives of millions of people "because of 9/11".

I didn't post this in 9/11 forum because, by definition, that is what they are talking about. I'm here to tell ya that the rest of the world finds it amusing that the murder of 3000 citizens of the world that happened to be in America, is more grave than the 100's of thousands of people that are killed by American and Israeli and Palestinian terror EVERY YEAR.

[lastknowngood]

1. Yea we're kind of weird over here for some reason

we don't see the death of "the other" people of any real importance. I think that is called ignorance.

[Webster Green]

2. and arrogance....

Demonstrated by the notion that 9/11 "changed the world" because it happened here. In fact, there's nothing new about religious fanatics slaughtering thousands of innocents.

[forgethell]

6. 9/11 changed the world

not because it "happened here", but because it got a very dangerous man extremely committed. If the "rest of the world" finds this amusing, I'm pretty damn sure it won't be for long.

[IronLionZion]

18. if the religious fanatics were white Christians,

imagine how radically different this situation would be. Who would be our enemy? Bush would still invade Iraq but his justifications would be even more of a stretch.

[juajen]

29. He could go after the Christians in Iraq

There are more than 750,000 last time I read about the subject.

[BiggJawn]

3. No flames here.

Just one little favour, though.
You have a cite for that "100's of thousands" figure you stated?
10 of thousands, maybe.

[burythehatchet]

4. Well yeah. I don't think the numbers really are the point

its the valuation of life. But if you consider, as I and many others do, that the bombing of the Iraqi infrastructure, water purification systems, and so on led to the death of 100's of thousands. Wouldn't you agree?

[BiggJawn]

7. Yes I would.

I will grant you that a lot more than 3,000 have died , and i see your point.

It's sickening, almost. Guess that comes from being an insulated society. If we had experienced something like the London "Blitz", or Dresden, we might have collectively had a diferent perspective. and been slower to "Kick some Ass", too.

[GreyV]

16. Mass Murder...

Mass murder is what went on and is still going on in Iraq.

According to Pentagon Iraqi Republican Guard was completely devastated with up to 60-75% casualties, depending on a unit. Since the estimated size of IRG was around 70,000 troops, that means there were around 40,000-52,000 dead Iraqis. Regular size of the army including the reserves was calculated to be between 300,000 and 320,000. Since Pentagon admitted all of the Iraqi divisions were hit hard with estimated casualties ranging anywhere from 5% up to 40%, that means another 15,000 to 70,000 casualties. Now include the civilian deaths and "night raid disappearances" that probably exceed a total of 20,000... so anywhere between 85,000 and 155,000 dead Iraqis. Are 3000 Americans worth more than 150,000 of them "brown backward devil worshiping Muslim folks"? Anyone remember those huge fresh mass graves outside Baghdad that were being filled with 1000s of Iraqi corpses, and interviews with American soldiers talking about truckloads of corpses being hauled out of city?

A human being is a human being, and it's scary that you don't seem to understand that.

[forgethell]

5. 100s of 1000s, every year?

I knew I should have studied in math a little harder.

[MrPrax]

8. This is poor taste...

Many many Americans have spent time, effort and sacrifice exposing injustice and 'terror' whether it be 'state-sponsered' or otherwise...

Especially many people who come to DU...

Besides as a an 'act of violence', 911 was pretty spectacular in it's awfulness--it is WORTHY of discussion, even by non-Americans

[burythehatchet]

9. Well that's the point I'm making.

It haas been discussed for over two years now. How long do we discuss equally atrocious events to this extent? It makes the rest of the world feel devalued.

[MrPrax]

15. I still at a loss as to the problem...

What?...that a political chat board predominantly created for and by Americans still talks about 911?

I don't see how this devalues the world? (he says eating 'freedom fries' covered in cheese and gravy and watching the 'terrorists' sweep over the border with slabs of mad-cow--thinking there are many many other things that Americans do that devalue the world that are far more worthy of discussion)

It is somewhat symptomatic of American culture tho--look at the some of the threads?

The civil war comes up STILL
The JFK assassination comes up STILL
OKC STILL comes up
Kissinger STILL comes up
MLK STILL comes up
Evolution STILL comes up
Abortion STILL comes up

Just between you and me--there are Americans that talk about Jefferson and Madison in the present tense, for gawd sakes.

In all fairness, EVEN after 2 years, there are a lot of unanswered questions and the 'perp' is still loose...

[Beam Me Up]

10. It depends on which side of the paranoid shift you are on

If you are still on the side where what happened is that Arab terrorists caused the events of 9/11 and that our foreign and domestic policy is a RESULT of that--that is one thing. However, if you're on the other side of that shift, where you admit that YOU DO NOT KNOW what actually took place that day, who was responsible and what role extreme factions within US military and government PLAYED in it; MOREOVER that both the foreign and domestic policy that have come in the wake of this event seemed to have been PLANNED prior to it--then that is quite another matter. In the later's case, the subject is not the deaths of 3,000 people but A CRIME OF STATE that CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. In other words, in the latter case "9/11" is not a point in the PAST, it is ON GOING: we are still living the social reality for which those events were nothing but a psychic driver. If you live on THIS side of the divide, there truly is very little else TOO discuss. A great crime has been committed and some of us will not rest easy--either in this life or the next--until the full truth is known and those responsible brought to justice.

[burythehatchet]

12. I couldn't agree with you more.

What I object to, for example, this evening Ashcroft is shown talking in Davos about the reasons why the US had to attack Iraq. Of course he says that 9/11 was the catalyst. I know its a lie and you know its a lie, but that is submitted as the reason. Its remarkable because he's talking to a very enlightened group of people from around the world. How dare he use the murder of those 3000 people in such a way. Does he take all the rest of the people in the room for fools?

[Beam Me Up]

17. Indeed

>>How dare he use the murder of those 3000 people in such a way. Does he take all the rest of the people in the room for fools?<<

#1: I do not due broadcast media. YOU COULD NOT PAY ME to have that propaganda box in my home, spewing its lies, poking at my "BUY ME" button every 30 seconds to support the CORPORATE STATE. Fuck that.

#2: I doubt that he takes all the rest of the people in that room as fools. Among other things, 9/11 was a message to the leaders of the world: THIS IS HOW BRAZEN AND RUTHLESS WE REALLY ARE: 'We will do this to "our own" people (not of our CLASS, of course); we'll do it in BROAD DAY LIGHT; we'll do it efficiently and expertly and yet be OBVIOUS about it for anyone with half a brain; and, most important of all: WE'LL GET AWAY WITH IT. No one will CALL US on it or any of the outcome. THAT is how POWERFUL we actually are.'

So, the fools will as fools do but those who aren't will know and what they know will cause them pause.

[loudnclear]

11. Yes, and our over reaction is our own undoing.

And I bet the rest of the world is thinking twice about the so-called "War on Terrorism."

The war against terrorism has cost all the nations more than any acts by derranged terrorists.

Relatively speaking, compared to the millions across the world dying of AIDS, embargos, American and Israeli occupations (no other nation is occupying another country except The US and Israel (even though there will be screams that the Palestinians have no country...they have a nation in their hearts). If there is another occupation anywhere please post it here. I really want to know.

[number6]

14. Chinese in Tibet

..other wise agree with what you post

[IronLionZion]

19. Pakistan in Kashmir

[0007]

36. Both Tibet & Kashmir were once the focus point for spiritual

reality and the holy man. China claims it is only taking back land that belongs to them while destroying the Tibetan way of life.

I believe Kashmir was a Hindu out post belonging to India until a Holy Saint died in that area. Which both Muslim and Hindu laid claim to the Holy Saint and the Holy Land that this spiritual Saint lived.

Isn't Palestine and Israel doing the same in the Middle East?

[dpibel]

37. Last I heard

India still controlled Kashmir, complete with troops on the ground and everything.

Now, from the point of view of many Pakistanis, India occupies Kashmir.

But the official story is that Kashmir went to India when they chopped up the colonies, and I don't think Pakistan occupies it.

Then again, I could be exposing my ignernz, because I just pulled this out of my head and am too lazy to pull up the CIA fact book. I'm pretty sure, though. . .

[DuctapeFatwa]

38. India is occupying Kashmir, NATO is occupying Kosovo

Pakistan is occupied by the US for all intents and purposes.

Kurdistan is occupied by Turkey, and recently Iraq, although since Iraq is currently occupied by the US, I guess Kurdistan is now jointly occupied by the US and Turkey.

To return to the topic of the original post, I think most of the world would like to see an investigation of the 9-11 events, and is less satisfied than the US voting class with the regime's position that the subject should not be looked into too closely.

[number6]

13. I 'm tired of 911 crap ...

about 8000 to 15,000 civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq
in the USA how many are killed in Auto accidents, home accidents,
die of lung cancer, drugs, alcoholism (each year)..
far more than 3000

[Katie]

22. 9/11 inquiry could become election embarrassment for Bush

September 11 inquiry could become election embarrassment for Bush


WASHINGTON (AFP) - The White House is resisting pressure to push the deadline of the main inquiry into the September 11 attacks closer to the November presidential election in a move which could embarrass President George W. Bush (news - web sites).
The US Congress originally gave the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon The United States 18 months to finish its investigation into the 2001 hijacked plane strikes. That would take it to May 27.


But the commission this week asked for at least two months more to complete its work.


"We are telling the Congress and the president what we need to do the best possible job," said commission chairman Thomas Kean. "Much work remains."


Investigators looking into the attacks on the World Trade Center towers in New York and the Defence Department headquarters in Washington -- which left about 3,000 dead -- have reported several bureaucratic obstacles.


Kean, a former governor of New Jersey state, has highlighted how the Bush administration has refused to give access to some secret documents and for some top officials to give evidence.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&e=5&u=/afp/us_attacks_vote

Also please see: Mariani vs. Bush 9/11 widow Ellen Mariani (shown left with a friend) has filed a lawsuit against Bush and other White House officials, charging them with complicity in the September 11th terrorist attacks. Mrs. Mariani has refused the $1 million in pay-off money from the government-allocated 9/11 compensation fund.


http://www.septembereleventh.org/
http://www.septembereleventh.org/ellenmariani.php

Dont think its wise to stop talking about 9/11, it might yet prove to be the undoing of bush. Also, following the 9/11 attacks all of our allies stood with us, until bush threw away all the goodwill with his war on Iraq.

[number6]

26. certainly the truth should come out.

whatever that may be, I don't expect it from the goverment.

[Katie]

28. Bush always uses 9/11- Time to use it against him

Bush constantly cries his crocidile tears about 9/11, fine...Let's not forget it then, nor what he didn't do to prevent it. I hope Ellen Marini's suit against bush isnt forgotten either.

It's tragic that our media fails us in so many ways, especially in reporting civilian deaths in Afghanistan & Iraq to the public. Any loss of life, whether here in the states or abroad shouldn't be taken lightly or callously. To do that demeans them all.

[burythehatchet]

27. I don't think the commission can be rigged. Enough Repubs

WILL release the info in time for the election. They will want it to be a referendum

[Lost4words]

35. Ill bet more than 3k kids are killed each yr from gun accidents

we dont seem to give a shit about them.

[truth2power]

20. Here's what Melanie Klein has to say about this...

"This silent war over whose lives are counted, whose deaths are collectively mourned, long predates September 11. Indeed, much of the shock of September 11 had to do with how much global suffering was all but invisible in the mainstream U.S. press, pushed aside by the euphoria of prosperity and trade."

"And so, on September 11, America woke up in the middle of a war only to find out that the war had been going on for years--but no one told them....'Here's the rub,'writes the Indian novelist, Arundhati Roy, 'America is at war against people it doesn't know, because they don't appear much on TV.'"

But instead of backing up and filling this gap--of information, of analysis, of understanding--we hear instead a chorus: this came out of nowhere, it is inexplicable, it has no past; 'they'hate us; they want to take away our democracies, our liberties, our stuff. Instead of asking why the attacks happened, our television networks simply play them over again."

"Just when Americans most need information about the outside world--and their country's complicated and troubling place in it--they are only getting themselves reflected back, over and over and over: Americans weeping, Americans recovering, Americans cheering, Americans praying. A media house of mirrors, when what we all need are more windows on the world." ]

Melanie Klein: "Fences and Windows". p. 170

[burythehatchet]

21. WOW ...That's powerful

I had not heard of Ms. Klein. I know I'd like to read more judging by the fact that she draws quotes from A. Roy...She is my heroine.

[truth2power]

24. Get her book

"Fences and Windows: Dispatches from the Front Lines of the Globalization Debate." It's paperback. Only about $13.00. My copy is all highlighted and underlined.

[burythehatchet]

25. 10-4

:thumbsup:

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Her website is

http://www.nologo.org

And truth misspoke above, it's Naomi Klein, not Melanie, not to nitpick or be pedantic but because you might run into some difficulty finding her writing otherwise. She's Canadian and a fine writer.

[truth2power]

40. Thank you for correcting that.

Geez! I posted that in the wee hours. My brain had gone beddy-bye!

[Beam Me Up]

23. Thumbs up

:thumbsup:

[Katie]

30. burythehatchet- another interesting thing to read

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

Alot of families have legitimate questions about 9/11, that with all due respect, should be answered. I dont see why bush should be let off the hook, I'm so tired of seeing him hiding behind the flag to avoid answering them. And none of us are going to stop talking about 9/11 till he does.

[rman]

32. i think the world is much more preoccupied

with America's recent moves towards global domination, rather then being sick of the US talking about anything in particular.

[Snappy]

33. Global Domination

The pretex of American Global domination is "war on terrorism". How can such a war ever be won? As long as the American Govt. terrorises other nations do the American people really expect people of other nations to bow and scrape to American power?

[OneTwentyoNine]

34. I'm sick of the 9/11 COVER UP and using it for political gain....

I welcome discussions about 9/11 as long as its a through investigation of the facts,and those facts aren't sealed for 50 years.

Bush and his regime using 3000 dead as their platform for re-election is just barbaric and should be heavily protested by NY.

David

[ldf]

39. i, too, an sick of it

although i live in nyc, and hate to go downtown just because of the constant reminder of what is missing from the skyline.

but if you watch any local newscast, the talking heads go out of their way to tie something, hell, anything, to 9-11.

there is a difference between talking about something in an honest attempt to get answers, and milking something for all it's worth.

aside from the milking factor, it's all a part of the fear campaign. we must remain afraid, otherwise we might just question. we might not want to "go along".

people are beginning to see that.