Why Joe Average doesn't trust "Elitism."

[Silverhair]

Basically, it is because so many so called intellectuals hold Joe in com tempt. So naturally Joe won't trust them. Look how often the word "sheeple" is used on DU as an expression of disgust at what the writer believes is their inability to think.

I am a Mensan, I have multiple degrees, and back in high school I made a vow to myself that everything that I read would have to be something of substance. I was then, and have always been, an avid reader, so by now that has been an untold number of books with meat in them. I think that thinks would qualify that I am both intelligent and well educated.

I grew up dirt poor on a farm. (Although rich in non-material blessings.) both my parents had dropped out of grade school, to work. No child labor laws back in their childhoods, but they worked on farms anyway. As I was growing up the adults they had for friends were people like themselves. THEY WERE NOT STUPID.

After high school, I joined the Army, and most of the guys were from backgrounds not that different from mine. We were all working class, BUT WE WERE NOT STUPID.

An education then, as now, usually means that the parents of the child have enough money to make sure kids is educated. That means that they usually aren't working class.

The upper class has always tended to look down their noses in contempt and condescension on the working class. The people on the receiving end of that naturally resent it.

Not only that, but their wealth is able to insulate them from many of the concerns of the working class. So the working class doesn't trust intellectuals to understand their concerns.

Clinton bridged that because he came from the working class. In 2000 the public was offered a choice of two rich elitists. But W doesn't sound intellectual and Gore did. Further, Democrats pushed hard on the, "Gore is brainy and Bush is a dummy", theme, and it blew up in our faces.

I would venture to guess that the majority of DUers have college, (Of those that are old enough.) and certainly have a computer and internet access. Most probably have office jobs. Only a few are probably working class. And the class contempt shows in so many posts that refer to the average person in derogatory terms.

The average Joe is not isolated from that contempt. It leaks out to him, and he knows that many of the Democrats think he is a dummy. Yet the Democrats want Joe to vote for them. Who is the dummy?

Nor do degrees really mean all that much. Often it only means an ability to vomit back up the information that was fed to the student. Often it means nothing about the ability to think critically. Joe knows that too.

Something to think about the next time you type the word, "sheeple" and congratulate yourself on your great intellect.

[thebigidea]

1. yes, we hate working people and live in ivory towers, tended to by slaves

meanwhile, the elitism of the Republican Party isn't even brought up. Nope, its those nasty liberals that are elitist - not the Yalie CIA my-daddy-was-a-president crowd... now hand me a latte.

or if its less elitist, some cafe con leche.

"and back in high school I made a vow to myself that everything that I read would have to be something of substance. I was then, and have always been, an avid reader, so by now that has been an untold number of books with meat in them. I think that thinks would qualify that I am both intelligent and well educated."

Actually it seems a little elitist. What's wrong with reading stuff that doesn't have much substance? Little snobbish, isn't it? Joe Average loves Stephen King and Danielle Steele. Joe Average looks at you suspiciously with your hoity toity tastes. Better keep some pulp fiction on your coffee table, otherwise Joe Average might start spreading rumours about your proclivities. In fact, maybe you should stop reading altogether before you get branded an "intellectual" and we start losing swing voters by the thousand.

[OHdem10]

24. Most interesting topic

When you indicate republicans are called down for their elitism--this is true. Not excusing this, but for years the Democratic Party(and therefore Liberals) was the party of the little guy. We took a turn in the road. Instead of having a real party with our own constituents it has been the practice that we compete with Republicans for the"Likely" voters. This naturally changed the way our candidates campaign . We now appear much interested in the upscale voter while oer half the country does not vote at all.
If we seek certain peoples votes we soon begin to identify with their needs--this is only natural. Joe Average looks at this quizzically I am sure. For years we were the party of the little guy.
We elected very wealthy and people of high social status always-
FDr, JFK wer nobody's poor kids. The difference is ( I am showing my age) early Liberals smay have been very rich but their upbringing and
family training imbued them with a sense of true giving back and
bringing others up.Speaking of the poor and underclasses was natural to them although they never associated or moved in their circles.
To speak of the poor today is almost taboo--we might offend someother group. Whatever made us shrink from the word liberal
and run from it as fast as we can, has made an impression on Joe Average. It was a big deal that John Edwards has decided to use the word poor--almost a news event. In conclusion we have changed our focus in the electorate and this contributes I think. Older Liberals better understood how to talk in mor simle plainsken way
in order to make others comfortable around them. Today emphasis on eucation possibly causes people to speak in language not that of the common man. JFK had a rule--If one word can be used instead of two or if one syave can be used instead of 2--do it. Yet he was a mostinspiring speaker.

From thebeginning the Republians have been the party of Business
and so people expect they are rich. They extol the virtues of capitalism--individuals must bring themselves up so they are not held to the same standad. They have never professed to be all that
interested in improving the lot of others until recent years.When they do it is a political response. Medicare Bill makes them look more compasiote even if I se it as a sham.

[shanti]

25. thank you!

people that brag about being "mensan" get on my last nerve. if you're smart, you're smart, joining a clique to proclaim it is the ultimate in snobbishness, imo. i've found that many so-called mensans (and i've known a few) may be bright, but they're sorely lacking in common sense.

[el_gato]

2. bush stole that election even though gore won the popular vote

so maybe you ought to reconsider the "blew up in our faces" part

[Silverhair]

10. Gore should have won by a landslide. He started with

lots of advantages. He was VP of a popular and sucessful president, the economy was growing, and the country was at peace. He should have won by at least 5 points. He blew it, and the arrogance of many Democrats helped. In pushing on the, "Bush is a dummmy" routine, we lowered the bar for Bush, while raising it for Gore. So all Bush had to do was be there and he exceeded expectations, while the expectations for Gore were raised to superhuman heights that nobody could meet. So Gore didn't meet expectations and Bush exceeded them.

And the dummy bit was easily countered by the Reps pointing out: "Hey, He's got an MBA, and he flew jet fighters. You can't be a dummy and do that. He just doesn't talk down to folks like they do."

It blew up in our faces.

[tom_paine]

17. I think that's an oversimplification at best

Such explanations ignore the declining ability of the Fourth Estate to o it's job properly and in an unbiased fashion.

The advent of an extremely well-financed Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media, generally endemic to Totalitarian States particularly when Party Infrastructure sells it to adherents as The Only True Media.

While I might agree, as I often do, with your general point, it doesn't take into account the New Realities or the New Political Korrectness that includes an Orwellian Double-Standard that would make a Soviet green with envy.

To my way of thinking, criticisms like this would be 100% valid if everything was stillthe same.

As we know 9-11 changed everything (GOTCHA! It was 12-12 that changed everything, though the greatest propaganda infrastructure and lie laundry in human history...the Mighty Wurlitzer...was already functional for several years).

And intelligence has NOTHING to do with susceptibility to propaganda and lies. Need I point out the number of intelligent people duped by Hitler, Stalin, Ferd Marcos, or Idi Amin.

Yes, I know it hasn't gotten that bad for us nobodies at the bottom yet. The top must be reduced and controlled first before the changes permeate to the bottom, or so says history.

That is something an extremely well-read person should know, as well as other precursors to Totalitarianism.

Oh, and also your position assumes the inviolability of the Amerikan Electoral System. Hell, I'm not certain the American system was inviolable, but now that checks and balances have degraded so badly, it's doubly frightening knowing anyone in the Imperial Entourage can get away with just about anything.

[Silverhair]

30. Of course it was an oversimplification.

Good grief! I try to keep my responses reasonably short, and on topic. Of course there were other reasons. But the, "Gore is brainy and Bush is a dummy" thing hurt us. It wasn't the only hurt, but it was one of them.

And your spelling of America as Amerika is one of the things that smacks of condescension and elitism and definitely rubs Joe Average the wrong way. And yes, Joe knows about it.

I think it was Spiro Agnew, in some odd otherwise forgettable speech, that used the phrase, "...those who spell America with a k." I remember how the line resonated with the general public. Yet, there are those among us who still insist on doing it because, I guess, it gives you a feeling of superiority.

If we keep insulting Joe Average, Joe won't vote for us.

[thebigidea]

32. Bob America is on my side, and he thinks Joe America is a douche bag.

I wouldn't use such terms, but Joe never returns my phone calls due to my coffee preferences.

Any other invisible friends we can bring into the debate? Perhaps the Easter Bunny could be invoked in a desperate plea for moderation.

[waylon]

40. Invisible... perfect way to characterize average joe.

Im quite sure thats how average joe thinks elitists view him and her. Sarcasm, condescention.... it works well on average joe!

[thebigidea]

44. Average Joe has no sense of humor, after all

comedy is for the upper class creep!

Bob America says that Joe America just THINKS he's a barometer for what mainstream America believes. Bob America thinks that Joe America is just fooling himself.

[waylon]

50. Bob America will get his ass handed to him if....

he doesnt recognize that Joe america is the difference between victory in 04 or ugly displays of panic induced temper tantrums.

Yes, he has a sense of humor. He's laughing at Dean's contempt for him right now!

[thebigidea]

51. we're talking about invisible friends, who brought Dean into it?

last I checked, he was real.

what the hell do my silly comments have to do with Howard Dean?

[waylon]

54. I did

Just an example of how arrogance plays with average joe.

[thebigidea]

56. or how some people have a "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean" tape loop in their head

[waylon]

63. Maybe im wrong but...

I dont see any other explanation as to why he dropped that far, that fast!

We can blame the media, rush, the gop, or the easter bunny but in the end, I think arrogance is the only explanation.


Dean is the archetype of elitism.

[Rich Hunt]

66. nonsense

If he were so elitist, then why is he so cheap?

The Republicans would love to have you think that. I thought that, until I actually started paying attention to the guy.

[waylon]

71. what do you mean cheap?

I say he is elitist because he has always been upper class, ivy league educated, and priveleged. He has never been average joe and it shows!

[Rich Hunt]

79. that doesn't make you 'elitist'

I've known more than a few blue-collar-bred elitists in my life.

[tom_paine]

86. Upper class...ivy league...always privileged

Quick! Who do you think of?

(apologies to Al Franken for stealing his material)

The Busheviks have shown that you can be as Elisitist as an 18th Century British Monarch and still sell yourself as a Regular Guy, if you have a hugely well-financed Pravda Machine.

[waylon]

93. Yes, but Dean fits that category also

The difference is Dean doesnt sell himself as a regular guy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

99. I'm not a Dean supporter but I liken his personality to Harry Truman

he has 'the buck stops here' kind of attitude, which is very no-nonsense, and very rural America (in case you didn't notice, Vermont has more cows than people).

Now why don't you start making sweeping generalizations about the Northeast while you're at it? After all, that's where all the elitists come from, right?

:crazy:

[waylon]

101. He has a "superior" attitude

It comes across in all his appearances.

I never made any generalizations. Did I?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

106. Have you seen him in person?

Do you think he seems superior because you have an inferiority complex or because he's from the Northeast?

:shrug:

Since when do you speak for "Average Joe"? This blue-collar girl would LOVE to know.

[waylon]

109. Neither

Inferiority complex? Please, save the elitist psuedo psycho-labeling for the coffee shop.

I too come from blue collar background. Im now on my way up but I certainly never had it easy. Student loans alone are 30 thousand, not to mention other debts.

Dean cries out upper crust. He bought his way out of military service so he could go skiing. He ridicules anyone who supported the Iraq war (me). And, he treats "proven" candidates like Kerry as if he was a traitor for supporting the war. He has contempt for me, I simply return the favor.

He sends a message loud and clear. If you are not a 20 year old spoiled, rich kid, college student with nothing better to do than travel the country like your on some Grateful Dead tour, you are not worth his time. I hear you Howie, loud and clear.

I speak for myself. Unfortunately for alot of elitists, there are WAY more people like me than them. Dean is pulling your chain like Bush in 00.

Unfortunately, the "sheeple" in this crowd dont see it.

Man of the people huh? What a joke.

[thebigidea]

88. my suspicious revolve around chris kringle - aka SANTA CLAUS.

[Rich Hunt]

57. actually,

I like Dean because he's straightforward and doesn't talk down to people.

[waylon]

73. Yeah, like when he told a retiree to sit down and shut up

I guess its not talking down to someone, its just asserting his right to the throne

[Rich Hunt]

80. the dude was a right-winger there to harass him

...he was interrupting and insulting him.

[waylon]

94. He IS a swing voter

He voted for bush but had also voted D in the past. This is "average joe". This is swing voter embodied. And Dean told him to ..."shut up and sit down"

Iowa was no surprise

[Rich Hunt]

98. he was a heckler

...there is a difference between a disruptive heckler and an inquiring fence-sitter.

And why is the 'average Joe' always conservative, white, and male?

[waylon]

103. Disruptive? Heckler???

He wasnt a supporter to be sure but you are making a huge leap by calling him a disruptor or a heckler. I thought he was trying to give constructive criticism. He said please tone down the .. tearing down your neighbor.. or something. He wasnt rude, wasnt onry, just straight forward and, in my opinion, trying to get him to SETTLE DOWN! And I agreed with him.

Maybe if he had listened to this disruptor, Dean would not be a 3rd placer today.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

108. He was a BUSH supporter there to heckle a Dem candidate

your outrage is transparent. How can you stand reading all the informed opinions on DU? No wonder you're bristling at one of your cohorts being dissed by a Dem candidate. Us Dems are supposed to play nicey-nice and accept ridicule from Repukes, like we do everyday from the Repuke-controlled media.

Enjoy your time at DU...

[waylon]

111. Nice try

Read it ...


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040111/ap_on_el_pr/dean_criticizing_bush


He was a swing voter. Do you honestly think a 60+ year old (guessing) man would go to a Dean rally if he was a bush supporter? I dont get it.

He is typical of the swing voter that we need. Dean ridiculed him. Dean came in 3rd in Iowa. End of story!

I see you are a victim of the oppressed crowd. Nothing is fair unless your candidate wins, right?

[tom_paine]

55. Actually, I spell it because I have always called things by their right

name and I'm not stopping now after 37 years.

Never in my life did I spell America with a "k" before the Bloodless Coup of 2000.

And no, using that way doesn't make me feel partiuclarly superior. I am superior to no one.

But before 2000, the Old American Republic (may it be restored or may I be wrong about it's current condition) deserves to be spelled in the old way.

This nation, with it's transitioning towards Third World Justice, Third World governance (including the telltale ineffectual or non-present checks and balances checks and balances) and Third World Economic Disparity, deserves nothing less than the new spelling.

And I am quite tired of being afraid what the Busheviks will do with my words or the words of the Democrats. Because no matter WHAT is said, the Mighty Wurlitzer will spin it's lies and half-truths into conventional wisdom.

Did it matter that Gore never said he invented the Internet? Did it matter that Gore never truly said that he was the model for "Love Story"?

No. And the original Tom Paine had something to say about such fears:

"It is the madness of folly, to expect mercy from those who have refused to do justice; and even mercy, where conquest is the object, is only a trick of war; the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf."
-- Thomas Paine

If I was a high-up Democratic spokesperson, I would consider the legitimacy of what you said, and even then I would ponder that Paine quote.

The bottom line is that no matter what Democrats say nor how much truth there is to it, the Mighty Wurlitzer of the Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media will distort it with Orwellian Double-Standards that ignore history (such as the long and rich history of Clinton-Hating, and it's uses of the Clinton=Hitler paradigm with far less "meat on the bone" with regard to the similarity of propaganda/dehumanization of foes).

Given such a situation, I choose to go down speaking my mind and speaking the truth as I see it. People in other Great Republics turning Totalitarian, such as Rome and Germany, kept silent out of fear.

Things are a little different today, but what it seems like you are saying is that we should keep silent out of the fear it would "hurt our chances".

I've got news for you, Silverhair. In such a nation with a corrupt and debased Press, a weakened and dying system of checks and balances, what makes you think that the voting system is any less compromised than the rest?

Certainly the events of 2000 and 2002, up to and including the convenient disappearence of Exit Polling during a time of Truman-esque and repeated Bushevik "upsets", suggest the answer.

[alarimer]

89. The reason

Most candidates try to appeal to likely voters is that 50% of the electorate does not bother to vote. Most of the nonvoters are what you call Joe Average. There are a lot of reasons for that, including general apathy and the candidates could do a better job of getting those people to the polls. In a lot of places "Joe Average" votes against his own self-interest by voting Republican. Also anti-intellectualism has many causes. Many rich Republicans are extremely anti-intellectual. Fundamentalists of all stripes, rich and poor, average or not, are also anti-intellectual. "Average" people are the product of an educational system whose only purpose is to turn out good workers, not intellectuals or people who question anything. It isn't really the people's fault that they are intellectually incurious- most of them are taught from day one not to make waves, not to question anything so they don't. It is very hard to wake those people up and make them realize that it is in their best interests to learn about issues and vote.

[Q]

47. It's weird the way you seem to actually make excuses for the...

...the Bushie Republicans and their theft of elections while placing the 'blame' for 'losing' the election on Gore.

- And I'm sorry...but the BS about 'Gore should have won in a landslide' rhetoric comes straight from the GOP playbook. They use is as cover for their blatant election fraud.

- Your use of stereotypes and RWing talking points suggests you've either been fooled by the Bush* Media or haven't really done much of the 'critical thinking' you rant about in the original post.

[Silverhair]

49. The fact that the Reps says something does not

automatically make it false. Gore should have wone in a landslide. He had all the advantages. It is true, even if the Reps do say it.

[Q]

64. You rant against 'elitism' of the left...but leave out the right?

- As to Gore...I guess you didn't notice the corporate-owned media attacking him at every turn while painting George( as the 'good old boy' anyone would be proud to have a beer with?

- Or perhaps you didn't notice that thousands of voters were being illegally purged from the polls or that Harris was manipulating invalid write-in and other ballots to favor Bush*? Or maybe you didn't hear about GOP operatives being allowed to 'use' Harris' office and computers to 'fix' ballots?

- You have to discount a LOT of things before you can say 'Gore should have won'. It's suspicious that you don't want to talk about the many things...including the Supreme Court...that prevented Gore from taking his rightful office.

- What it boils down to is that you seem to resent liberals and have adopted the language and tone of the RWingers in order to falsely label us as 'elite'. I think you'll find that MOST of us came from WORKING CLASS families..and if we did go to college we had to work our asses off to get there.

[tom_paine]

68. No, he did not

Gore did NOT have a compliant media unwilling to write critical stories about him or investigate them further where smoking guns warranted it.

Yes, Gore should have won in a landslide. In a Free Nation with an undebased, unparasitized Free Press, he likely would have even with the questionable campaigning.

But, as I first realized in late 2000 when clicking on a freshy new Yahoo.com poll in which the questions was "Do You Have a Favorable Opinion of Al Gore?" and the numbers were (mere minutes after the poll was posted:

Yes 8 0.1%
No 40003 99.9%

this is not the case...not even close.

When one considers the crimes and dirty tricks of Watergate, which have seemingly continued onward almost unabated even after the Busheviks got caught, even intensifying in less dangerous directions like Poll manipulation and vacation Home Voting and illegal One-Party Absentee Ballot solicitation using taxpayer money (as happened in Florida, though I'm sure it was just a coincidence), it seems likely that some very bad things are going on.

Yes, Gore clearly made mistakes, not the least of which was refusing to tackle Right-Wing Lies swifty and decsively.

But let's not kid ourseleves, he started, partiuclarly in th realm of Corporate Pravda, already down in a big way.

[nannygoat]

3. The people who were most touting the "* is a downhome folksy incurious

average guy like us" in 1999 and 2000 were the repukes and their mediawhore minions.

[auburnblu]

4. Great post and very important point

The "I'm an elitist, I know better than you" attitude may play great if you are hanging out in Martha's Vineyard, but to a lot of lower middle income voters they just get turned off. An elitist attitude and viewpoint, say insulting people who watch NASCAR, live in a trailer or who can't afford to travel to Europe, may seem to be the right way to go to some, but yikes.

Its a problem the Democrats have, yes the Republicans are viewed as rich people who don't care, but the Democratic leadership is often viewed as elitists who will want your vote and look down on you at the same time.

I worked with a community development bank this past summer and Lord have mercy, the "I have a master's degree from so and so Unviersity, I am enlightened, I am important" attitude seemed rampant. Lower income folks were looked upon as second class citizens that had the common sense of five year olds.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. "Peasant, fetch me more Duck L'Orange, my brie is getting tepid...."

Look, dude.....I grew up working class. My dad was a postal clerk and substitute teacher, my mom was a librarian. We grew up in a shitty, rundown house in a relatively rich town in CT. I always felt looked down upon because of my family's financial standing. I couldn't afford "skater clothes," so I had to wear thrift store clothes...But my family always made sure that WE READ, and that we learned, and that we kept up with the issues: my father was an anarchist who taught me who Bakunin was at nine....Intellectualism was very important to my parents because they knew that if we were going to transcend our financial limitatons, it would have to be through our intellect that we did so.

I'm still proudly working class. I'm a cook, I'm no ivy league beardo with a PhD, but I DO hold in contempt anyone from the working class all the way up to the ruling class who refuses to better him/herself intellectually. If you choose to remain ignorant about history, politics, literature, culture, etc. it's your own goddamn fault. And if you make a political decision based on "likability" or "beer buddy appeal," then I will hold you in contempt because that's shaky, shallow criteria, and it's irresponsible to boot.

So forgive me as a potential sheeple who refused to be herded: there is free will in all of humanity, and freedom of the press (to an extent)in this country, and access to the info is cheap. There's no excuse to remain ignorant just because you're poor.

[thebigidea]

7. Gar-son! What's the soup du jour of the day?

[Jose Diablo]

74. soup du jour of the day is redundant

:D

[ProdigalJunkMail]

75. and you are an elitist snob for pointing that out!

:P and besides, brie is best served 'tepid' !

TheProdigal

[thebigidea]

87. that's the point of the joke, its from MST3K

[leftyandproud]

33. Economists call this "rational ignorance"

Everyone has knowledge in different areas of life. People specialize in different things. Someone working 50 hours a week at a Ford plant knows a shitload about mechanics...They probably have good social skills and can read people well, but they may not know SHIT about Marx...They don't read books by Chomsky...They don't care about global warming. They don't take the time to learn about these things because they are forced to choose a limited set of options with their limited free time. They work a lot...save money, send their kids to college, and watch football on the weekend. These are rational choices that make them happy. Just because they don't read the books you do or share the same philisophic viewpoints doesn't make them deserve your contempt. They may be ignorant about many issues (I am as well...and you are too!--especially in the non political world I'm guessing), but this is a CHOICE. We can't learn and do everything with our lives. It is a sign of RATIONAL ignorance.

[Rich Hunt]

41. excellent post

...and it rings absolutely true with me.

My grandma was an Irish immigrant with a sixth grade education. But her favorite pastime was reading.

If your ancestors were told they were 'ignorant' by their colonizers for hundreds of years, you wouldn't put down education.

It was never a shame to read and do well in school in my house.

[Sapphocrat]

95. Beautiful, RKZ

I'm no ivy league beardo with a PhD, but I DO hold in contempt anyone from the working class all the way up to the ruling class who refuses to better him/herself intellectually. If you choose to remain ignorant about history, politics, literature, culture, etc. it's your own goddamn fault. And if you make a political decision based on "likability" or "beer buddy appeal," then I will hold you in contempt because that's shaky, shallow criteria, and it's irresponsible to boot.

Thank you. That's perfect.

P.S. We were poor too -- only by sheer determination did my parents not lose the house when I was small. I grew up in a very affluent town only because my family had been there 30 years before all the rich folks discovered it -- but that didn't make us any less poor. I went to school with the sons and daughters of right-wing doctors and lawyers, and they looked down on me too. Probably still do.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

100. Excellent post

I have a similar background (father a firefighter, mother a secretary) and there was never any excuse in my house not to read or improve your understanding of the topics of thee day.

I think a lot of anti-intellectualism is a simple lack of curiosity, or fear that what you learn may upset your world view.

And let's not forget that 'elitism' is often a code-word for Northeast urban liberal.

[FreeperSlayer]

6. Uh, I'd believe you on your credentials...

...if you had at least spelled all of the words correctly in YOUR FIRST SENTENCE (lol)!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

72. I have but two words:

comma splice.

TheGrammarNazi :-)

I will now step off of my soapbox so that you may return to the world of the grammatically challenged (which would include me).

TheProdigal

[HereSince1628]

8. What is Mensa? I always saw it as a group of people who

needed confirmation of their elite status...

[thebigidea]

9. only Nixon could go to China... only a Mensan could warn of elitism

[KFC]

16. It happens once a month

To about 1/2 the population.

[nemo137]

11. you may be right.

whether the democrats do that to themselves or are the victims of a good republican campaign is open to debate, but it is an issue. and while DU doesn't necessarily represent the public face of the party, it does worry me when DUers blame the "sheeple" for allowing rising fascism and other evils.

[salinen]

14. Rush taught sheeple

that they have voting rights, and could punch the card just as hard as a liebrul.

[karabekian]

12. i totally agree

viewing the world differently does not make you stupid. All politicians think that the people are stupid. The Republicans just sell the image as down home, values based, small government type and are largely viewed this way. Democrats are largely viewed as tax hiking, big government loving, elitists. Regardless of truth, that is the impression many people have in the country and one we desperately need to change. By completely rejecting many issues that are not only important to, but supported by a majority of Americans, or dismissing the people who support them as sheeple or stupid, we risk losing power for a long time.

[library_max]

13. There is a ferocious epidemic of anti-intellectualism in this country.

And I think it is oversimplifying the situation to simply blame the victims (intellectuals).

Yeah, sure, we need to watch the "sheeple" references and we need to hone our communication skills to make sure that we don't sound condescending when we try to explain the facts on important issues. But education is the basis of social class in this country, and there are millions of people who hated school, never got a grade higher than C, didn't go to college, and still hate their teachers and the A students and everybody who reminds them of either one or the other.

Not to play to a stereotype, but let me ask you all something. How many were, like me, hopelessly unathletic as kids and teenagers? Do you remember gym class as a place where you were expected to compete and held up to ridicule and humiliation because you couldn't, no matter how hard you tried? Did any of you develop a life-long hatred for sports and physical activity in general?

Now ask yourself if an academically untalented kid might feel the same way in math class, English class, history class, etc. Ask yourself if that kid might not grow up with a few attitudes about education and educated people.

Tragically, we have a major party which makes tons of hay by playing on that resentment. In the short run, we have to be aware of it and sensitive to it and lay off the "stupid" references. In the long run, we need to take another look at how K-12 education works, because in a democracy we can't afford to keep producing cadres of virulent anti-intellectuals who remember how much they hated school.

[Silverhair]

20. Excellent points.

Yeah, I was one of those kids that was a zero in sports, but blessed with high intelligence.

We need to change the way our education system works, certainly. It is too oriented toward college-bound, and not enough for the kids that want to be plumbers, or don't have the academic talents for college. College just isn't for everybody. The attempt to make it universal has turned it into four more years of high school.

And we need to change the PE classes too. Emphasis should be on self improvement and health instead of competitive sports.

[HereSince1628]

31. I said it to Will Pitt yesterday, now to you-got a link or just opinion?

Its clear that you are not as well informed as you should be to be making these assertions. I suggest you go to a library and read a couple of months worth of the Chronicle of Higher Education.

Colleges have made a tremendous shift toward preparing students for the workplace. These students' futures, at least in the US, are in a post-industrial world where there won't be enough farming and steel working jobs to employ them. Its a world were employers don't do on the job training.

Consequently, much more than half of each graduating class needs some sort of post high school training. I suspect college curricula are quite different than the one of your statements.

[LeahMira]

34. Are you blaming the teachers, yet again?

OK, just kidding a little. But ask parents if they want their C student placed in the group of children that is not college bound and see what the reaction is. Ask them if they would prefer that their klutzy little Johnny take yoga or football in PE class. Speaking of MENSA, do you have any idea how many parents nominate their child for the "gifted class" when given that chance? For a group of people who apparently don't trust education, Americans certainly are interested in their children having as much educational opportunity as the children can get, even when the children really aren't able to take advantage of that opportunity.

[Snow]

38. Me too, but,

you're not stuck with what school hands you. I was smallish due to grade-skipping, not much at catching or throwing balls, and usually got picked last (what a stupid system, by the way. Line the kids up, count 'em off!) and didn't think much of gym. Got into college, used my swimming skills to get life-saving, water safety instructor, and advanced swimmer certificates. Then joined Peace Corps, went to Korea and joined a small marital arts gym in my small town. Those guys know how to teach athletic stuff! In two years I had a first degree balck belt and something I've been able to keep going ever since to keep in shape.

Same with the academic stuff. I was afraid of math all the way through school because of the calculation, but then calculators came along & I could enjoy the stuff. Ended up teaching myself probability & calculus. Same deal with the cartload of crap they call history - it's much more interesting learned on your own.

In short, the school system is no excuse for either athletic or intellectual shortcomings - it may not have done anything for you, but don't let that keep you from doing for yourself.

[karabekian]

21. but past A students are both Republicans and Democrats

I think that one large reason for the divide is people condescending view of religion and non-secular ideas. religion is important to them and if you marginalize their beliefs as uneducated or stupid, it is no wonder why they reject you. (and I dont mean anyone specific. I can see how academics are viewed as elitists. A vast majority of college professor are elitist and look down on people who have a different viewpoint, even though it is often unconsiously. Now this is not all professors or academic types, but there are quite a few from both sides of the spectrum who do. I saw it all the time at school and continue to see it.

Saying things like "you are stupid if you don't believe in global warming" or "your a racist because you don't believe in affirmative action" is examples that I have personally heard from democratic leaders. That type of attitude will get us killed.

[library_max]

110. And the hell of this is

that there are right and wrong answers on global warming and affirmative action. Global warming especially is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. We have to be able to stand on that without calling people who don't have the facts ignorant or stupid. We also have to find ways to differentiate the people who do have the facts and are just lying about it for political or financial reasons.

Religion is another sticky wicket, because there are a lot of people out there who won't believe you "respect" their religion unless you respect their "right" to shove that religion down other people's throats the way they used to be allowed to do before the Seventies.

[MrBenchley]

15. What is this "elitism"?

Last time I saw it, Dr. King was still alive, and the people trying desperately to keep Jim Crow going were throwing the term around.

And I've never seen anyone but a freeper use the word "sheeple" except in jest, and then mostly to describe anyone who thought a humjob wasn't the crime of the century.

[karabekian]

26. it happens a lot but is not representative of most posters here

I read a lot of the threads and don't post all that much. I do see people with this elitist attitude in many posts. It is not representative of the whole of DU but for people coming here for the first time, you would maybe get that impression. While were on this horse, I must also point out the obsession of many here about George W Bush, Limbaugh, Hannity and other conservatives. So many threads about every little stupid thing they do. It is kind of interesting to me. I don't like the guy, don't like his policy but people obsession with calling him a war criminal, liar, terrorist, and blaming him for every ill is a little over the top. There are so many more interesting things to talk about. I guess it is largely because it is an election year though. hehe :evilgrin:

[PVnRT]

27. You need to read more threads

"Sheeple" is thrown around all the time, and not in a joking manner.

[economic justice]

18. Again, you are right.

I agree 100%. The "activist" wing of the Democratic party has always had a hard time understanding the middle class (though most came from it themselves) and the "average Joe." To many in our party it's only about the very poor and the very rich and the eternal battle between them. It really does come down to *understanding* the middle class family and the average Joe and Mary that populate it. Thanks for a good post.

[KG]

19. what a load.

[PVnRT]

28. Care to address anything that was written?

Or is it easier to just continue calling anyone who doesn't agree with you an idiot?

[KG]

36. where did i call the poster an idiot?

do be specific, won't you?

[PVnRT]

65. I didn't say you did that

But, by merely saying "What a load" without saying anything else, you are implying that you think that calling people "sheeple" and generally looking down on anyone who doesn't agree with you is a good thing.

And you still dodged the first part of the question....interesting....

[KG]

76. yes, it is interesting, isn't it?

[PVnRT]

77. Keep on dodging...

It's what you're best at...

[KG]

91. no dodge here - don't feel complelled to explain myself to you.

have a nice day.

[ret5hd]

22. Sorry, I just dont buy it...

The "liberal elite" meme is an invention of and spread by the repukes...
and getting us to stop typing or writing "sheeple" isn't going to stop them.

The droning sound of the stereotypical "liberal professor lecturing to the masses" is no more grating to the ears than the conservative professor's voice doing the same thing.

The difference is that the conservative "just doesn't do that". No attempt to explain an issue with all of it's nuances. Black and white. Right and wrong. The right wing RALLYS. SEIG HEIL! SEIG HEIL! The liberals explain. And that is said (by the right) to be "talking down to people".

So what is really being said here is that us lib'rels oughta come down to that level. We're not wrong, THEY ARE! They're not right, WE ARE!

And the "idea" that class contempt is rampant here is bogus also. The only contempt
shown here is for ideology, not class (OK, I'm not going to pretend that contempt for the working class has NEVER been shown here, but hardly, and not even close to, rampant).

In fact, I will go so far as to say that most of the resentment by the working class against the "liberal elite" is purposely fomented by ideas such as this.

From a high school drop-out,
25 year machinist,
19 year union member
(about as working class as you get)

[karabekian]

29. ~

"We're not wrong, THEY ARE! They're not right, WE ARE!"

this is a perfect example of why people view us as elitists.

[ret5hd]

53. I think you may have misinterpreted my post...

The attitude you quoted from my reply is the attitude that the original poster would have us adopt, to keep us from talking down to people.

The right is the side that has adopted those tactics, (black and white, riht and wrong) while the left is (admittedly) the side of intellectuals who examine and explore.

Those who view intellectualism as threatening hold the attitude of "We're not wrong, THEY ARE! They're not right, WE ARE!"

[karabekian]

81. your right i appologize

but i misinterpreted because I often see that coming from the "intellectual left" we need to have dialog with all ideas. IF you truely believe in the superiority of your own, you should not feel threatened by other ideas or by people not agreeing with you. (not you ret5hd)

[Rich Hunt]

46. I somewhat agree

I've never felt that my professors were too 'elite'. This was because they didn't talk down to me. Sometimes things they said were just a shade over my head, and I liked having to work up to those things.

It's far better to talk to people as if they are intelligent than to assume they can't understand and tailor your discourse to that.

The worst snobbery I encountered in college was from wealthy students who really weren't all that academically.

Maybe the 'sheeple' thing wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't spouted by people who should focus on their own self-education.

[LeahMira]

23. You make some good points, but...

... can you honestly say that Republicans are any less elitist? The stereotype of Republicans is that they are all wealthy businessmen and corporate CEOs, and while stereotypes are a problem, I wonder why "average Joe" would trust a wealthy businessman or imagine that the corporate CEO has any more understanding of the working class than any Democrat might have.

Do you suppose it's the "rags to riches" and "anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps" thing... that "average Joe" imagines that all those wealthy Republicans started life in humble beginnings, and that if they can rise to the top they will facilitate "average Joe's" rise as well? Has "Joe" not caught on to the fact that it isn't happening? Is hope really that stubborn?

I wonder why the "average Joe" wouldn't want someone a bit smarter than himself, with a little more education, making the important decisions that are going to affect his taxes, his safety, and his general quality of life.

In comparison to the various candidates we have running, I am a dummy. That's why I want a statesman running the country. I want someone who does understand how to get along with other nations and who can balance the budget without cooking the books. I certainly don't want someone who is on my level... we'd all be in trouble if that happened!

[Silverhair]

59. I was refering to an attitude of condesention.

The candidate certainly needs to be well educated, experienced, etc. But his followers have to show some respect to the people they are trying to win over.

[geniph]

35. The "liberal elite" stereotype is right up there with Barbies

saying "math class is hard" as far as grating on my nerves. I grew up in the projects, youngest of 13 kids. My father was more or less nonexistent. My mother made an okay living, but not stuck with so many kids. We were dirt-poor until my father showed back up and took the boys, and my oldest sisters married - one at 15 - to get away from our situation.

I was forever being pulled out of class to be tested during elementary and middle school, until they decided I was just a very precocious child, not a particularly brilliant one. For what it's worth, I qualified for Mensa too - and it took exactly one meeting for me to decide this wasn't an organization to which I wished to belong. A bit narcissistic and self-congratulatory for my taste.

I don't have a degree. College was pretty much out of the question for myself and my siblings; we had to start working and earn our own way as soon as we graduated high school. Even graduating high school was a hell of an accomplishment; we were the first generation of my family where most did that. My father completed 8th grade, my mother 10th. No one ever even discussed college. Yet I've worked myself into a solid middle class because I found, nearly 25 years ago, that I had a talent for troubleshooting computers. I've been a system administrator since about five years before the introduction of the 8088. I make a damn good living. I still consider myself solidly blue-collar and working-class in outlook; my first marriage didn't last in part because my ex was very middle-class and suburban and it was not unlike being married to someone from a completely different culture.

I'm the last person in the world to express contempt and condescension for the working class. But I still find anti-intellectualism and deliberate celebration of ignorance repulsive.

[Silverhair]

69. I agree.

I quit attending Mensa meetings decades ago, shortly after qualifing. I took the test when I was in my ealry 20's as a ego thing. I listed it here to show that I'm not a dummy.

I agree about the delierate celebration of ignorance, but I don't often come into contact with people of that nature. I have found plenty of condesention here, and am trying to warn posters that it does leak out into the wider world.

I haven't noticed in your posts, but somehow I doubt you would call people, "sheeple" or some of the other names that I have seen tossed around here.

Also, a person can be well educated, yet not rub their education in the nose of those less well educated. When he does that, generally the less educated will respect him, if he is otherwise worthy of respect. But flaunt your education, make people feel inferior, and they will not vote for you.

[Cleita]

37. I have been called elitist by people whose English

wasn't grammatically correct, but regional in flavor. I thought it was because my ideas were too liberal for them. But when I ask them why because I am neither rich nor haughty, I was told it was because I tried to lord it over them with my "high falutin" language.

This takes me aback because I speak my own regionally flavored, grammatically incorrect English that is Southern Californian and everyone I grew up with and whom I socialize with speaks the same.

I can only guess that I would be accepted if I adopted their regional patois. I pointed this out to one acquaintance, who had stated this, that she was being elitist by making fun of my English. It didn't make an impression though. I find these attitudes really stubborn and close minded.

[Rich Hunt]

39. agree and disagree

I agree that there is some elitism on DU, but many of us do come from working-class and poor backgrounds.

When I went to a private university, only 1-2% of students had my family's income or lower, but the public universities had many more.

I think that, for a time, it wasn't so hard to get to college if you were from a working-class background. That door is closing.

However, I get frustrated with people who 'don't trust' books. I agree that intelligence is not just about having a degree. But many people are so crippled with their resentment that they stop reading and learning when they no longer have to do so for school. This isn't helping them.

If you do make it to university, you find out just how many people are faking it.

Remember, though, that the business culture is profoundly anti-intellectual. These people don't read, either.

I must say, though - the Republicans since Reagan are the nastiest, most contemptuous, most cynical bunch of people. They're quite cynically exploiting the ignorant (who are not all working-class or poor!!) for a buck and a vote.

[waylon]

43. Disagree and disagree

"But many people are so crippled with their resentment that they stop reading and learning when they no longer have to do so for school. This isn't helping them." ....."Remember, though, that the business culture is profoundly anti-intellectual. These people don't read, either."

"

I have to assume that you are neither a reader nor part of the business culture!

[Rich Hunt]

48. come again?

Wrong and right.

But I've known far too many business people who have exactly *zero* books in their house. Either that, or they're reading absolute crap on the train.

[waylon]

52. Just a generalization

Those of us in the "business culture" can make them too!

If you have "known far too many business people who have exactly *zero* books in their house" then you should consider finding a new crowd to socialize with.

[Rich Hunt]

62. erm

You're part of the 'business culture' and a friend of 'Average Joe'?

That's interesting.

[waylon]

70. Why is that "interesting"?

Did you honestly think that DU and the democratic party was made up soley of unemployed hippies? Socialists? Left wing academic elitists?

Exactly what is interesting about me being a business man? And yes, I would say I coud have been classified as average joe not too long ago.

[Rich Hunt]

82. absolutely not

I've been reading it a long time - they come from all walks of life. Computer programmers, frozen pizza sales reps ...

[stopbush]

42. Sorry, sounds like a load of re-cycled BS to me.

If the repugs or Dems wanted Joe Average to have a real say in elections, the Electoral College would be long gone.

We are the least-well-educated industrial country on the planet. Hell yeah, we're not too bright as a people, and damn proud of it! We live in a country where we demand that only a top-flight medical specialist perform our surgeries, where we want our kids taught by highly credentialed teachers, where we won't even take our car to a shop to get the effing tires rotated unless there's some "expert" on-site to do the work. Yet when it comes to electing the guy with his finger on the nuclear button with the well-being of the world as his oyster, we pick an Ivy-League-faux-Texan-dumb-as-shit huckster who believes the mythical sky being has anointed him to mete out life and death to the rabble as our president, and all because he's a "regular Joe."

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said something along the lines of "the arts shouldn't strive to be popular, the populace should strive to be artistic." Yet in our once-great nation, the opposite is true - intellect (artistry) is damned and popularity rules...until the shit really hits the fan on a personal level. Then, we want those brainiacs to jump in and clean up the doo-doo left by Joe Popular.

Go figure.

[waylon]

45. Why do you fault the electoral college?

How does the electoral college take away the "brainiacs" vote? And what is the alternative?

[stopbush]

61. The Electoral College was set up by the Founding Fathers as a way

to keep the people from making a grave mistake when electing the president. We do not elect our president directly - we vote for electoral voters who then vote for president. Theoretically, 100% of the country could vote for a person and the EC could install someone else. They're not legally bound to vote for the person who they are representing.

The FF's didn't trust the common man enough to give him the power to directly elect the pres. They put in a safety valve of "smarter people," just in case we commoners did something they didn't like.

[morgan2]

58. the average joe doesnt trust intellectuals

because there are so many people who use intellectual arguments to deceive people. The average person who doesn't have the time/training/brains to go through a complex analysis of political policies tends to go for the simple explanation. The long drawn out one makes them think someone is trying to trick them. It comes off like a door-to-door salesman trying to con them.

[young_at_heart]

60. "Those that are old enough"..........how old are you talking about?

Degrees DO mean something to those who aren't closed-minded. Those people who have degrees and never think other than "Black or White" haven't mastered what it means to be "human".

[NewJeffCT]

67. Image is everything!

Image is everything.

Raygun was part of the Hollywood elite that is so often railed against by the Fright Wing. But, his image was that of a moral, folksy down-home nice guy. The rest of Hollywood was full of out of touch, swinging, wife swapping orgy participants, drug using left wing radicals who would then tell us how to live our lives, but Raygun was the exception. He stood for family values, baseball, apple pie, etc.

Bush is even more of an elitist than Raygun. His family has been extraordinarily wealthy for the better part of a century now and the only working class people he associated with growing up were probably the hired help around the mansion. And, even though he was a mediocre student, his family connections got him in to Yale. Try that if you are not part of the ultra-elite? But, his image is of a tough-guy cowboy boots wearing rugged individualist.

I remember the irony of the first presidential campaign I really followed closely (too young and naïve prior to the ’88 campaign). Somebody had complained that Mike Dukakis was one of those Ivy League elites, when, in reality, it was George HW Bush that was the Ivy League elite and Dukakis had attended a non Ivy school and was not from nearly the elite background as HW.

There are elites in both parties, but the Republicans do a much better job of connecting with white middle America and giving the image of non-elitism.

[BeFree]

78. As someone who uses the word Sheeple...

...to describe the segment of the population who blindly follow their leaders, allow me to explain how and why I use such a term.

With all the lies flowing from the mouths of politicians, business leaders, church preachers, and the media, I have often found myself close to drowning in a sea of shit. But having educated myself and keeping a wary eye out for the lies and deceit, I've managed to keep afloat, and steer a course that I consider to be a worldly and humanely caring political course.

My sheeple, however, are sunk by the lies and deceits, and instead of pulling themselves out of the morass are all too glad to follow the shepherds along the road to certain disaster. The sheeple path has led to war above education, military above libraries, cheap electricity above clean air, racism over love. Ya see where I'm going?

Now, some sheeple are not stupid or unedumacated. I've known plenty of smart, edumcated sheeple. But they are sheeple nonetheless by virtue of following along behind the leaders who are destroying my America.

***********

Question, Silverhair, have you read *'s latest book?

[Silverhair]

83. Not all Bush suporters are hard-core.

There are varing degrees of support among Reps, just as there are among Dems. We need to win over some of his soft support. Calling them "sheeple" doesn't help do that. It further alienates them, driving them deeper into his camp. And the attitude behind the use of a derogatory term will come through in the way you talk to a soft Rep.

[economic justice]

85. That's exactly right, Silverhair

Also, "sheeple," as defined by those on DU, would apply to a good segment of the members of this message board. I see it all the time - if it's anti-Bush, it must be good....if Bush supports something, it must be bad. Very little independent thinking in how we view Bush as a person and as a president. These kinds of knee-jerk, emotional reactions are almost always, not the result of intellectual honesty, but mere "sheeple-think".......(If the definition is to be applied fairly).

[waylon]

97. Agreed

[BeFree]

104. So, you agree about sheeple?

But I must say, if you really believe that there be many sheeple onboard this bus, then you must not be edumacated yet.

As no one ever said to me: "If ya cain't say anything bad about *, then don't say anything at all." Personally, when the boy was appointed as prez, I gave him the benefit of doubt. Well, there is no doubt now, he's an all out crook who has made it so that I'll never trust him for even a split- second. Now that, I would argue, is as unsheeple as ya can get.

[BeFree]

90. There being not too many Reps here...

...I don't see how using the term sheeple here is gonna do any harm.

We are among friends here. Politically wise and getting wiser. Sheeple, though there may be a few here, are not likely to make much use of this forum, but if they would, it would do all of us some good, eh?

Now, if you are a sheeple, and you are reading this, please except my sincere regret that you are a sheeple. And if you are a sheeple, please inform us of such so that we can edumacate you to the proper degree.

[Logansquare]

84. Some "sheeple" have Master's degrees

My dad worked as a foreman in a factory most of his life. He was making $12,000/yr when he retired in the late 70s. My mom worked as a secretary and a cleaning lady. My paternal grandfather was a tenant farmer who never owned the land on which he toiled, and had $500.00 in savings left when he died.

With the above credentials, I feel perfectly OK about feeling that people who are incurious, selfish, fearful, and blindly trusting of elected (and unelected) leaders are little better than lambs going to the slaughter.

[Sapphocrat]

92. * shrug *

I use "sheeple" constantly, with all the disdain in the world attached to it, simply because I abhor a vacuum.

I'm not college-educated. In fact, I'm a high-school dropout with a GED and a technical certificate that got my foot in the door to the computer industry. Yep, that office job and six-figure paycheck was very nice -- especially after spending the first ten years of my adulthood cleaning apartments, delivering pastries, tearing movie-ticket stubs, and driving a taxi, among other crappy, Joe-Average jobs.

My background is as blue-collar as it gets, all the way back to my great-grandparents, who came here third-class on some tub nobody even remembers the name of (but I assure you, it wasn't the Mayflower). My father was a machinist. My grandfather was a ranch foreman. My great-grandfather was a ranch hand.

None of my grandparents made it past the eighth grade. My father had two years of tech school.

I was simply unmotivated. When I got motivated, it was too late to go to college; the money wasn't there, and I couldn't quit working. So I picked up books, and started my self-education, which won't end until the day I die.

I can't quote Proust. I can't name all the Presidents. I have no idea what the table of elements is good for. Math beyond long division is a mystery to me. I can read a little Latin, but I can't speak a word, because I've never heard the word veritas or salis pronounced aloud. Without footnotes, Shakespeare is difficult for me -- and my eyes roll back in my head at the sight of Thackeray.

So, me, I blow the "elitist leftist" theory all to hell -- and I don't believe I'm some great anomaly, on DU or anywhere else. I'm no slouch in the brains department, but my roots are humble enough to distance me far, far away from all those "rich elitists."

Maybe that lowers my status in the eyes of the MBAs out there, but I don't care. We all start out ignorant.

But those who choose to stay ignorant -- those I call "sheeple." With contempt.

What's really funny to me is that I've never met a rich elitist. I have plenty of rich, liberal, degreed friends, and not once has my opinion been dismissed because I wasn't one of "them."

Maybe that's what "education" is really all about.

[waylon]

96. Sounds like....

You are one of them..

"What's really funny to me is that I've never met a rich elitist. I have plenty of rich, liberal, degreed friends, and not once has my opinion been dismissed because I wasn't one of "them."

"

"Maybe that's what "education" is really all about."

I guess its just easier to look down once you are on a high horse.

[Sapphocrat]

107. How rude and dismissive.

So I'm on a "high horse" because I have rich, liberal, degreed friends? Gee, would you like to hear all about my poor, liberal, un-degreed friends who are the same boat I am?

You missed the entire point, waylon: The only thing I look down on is deliberate ignorance. If a person wants to stay ignorant and uninformed, that's his or her choice. I don't respect it, and I never will. I don't give a damn if you didn't make it past the third grade and haven't a penny to your name; there's something out there called the public library, available to anyone who doesn't want to continue living in a cocoon.

Scroll back up and read RandomKoolZip's post if you don't understand mine.

[Pithlet]

102. Are those

who state that they think that many people who are poor just lack initiative and are just passing that ideal on to their kids, elitists?

I was just wondering because I've actually seen that on this board. Someone even suggested once that their children should be taken away and put in orphanages so as to not risk that happening.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. That sounds like a Republican/Social Darwinist comment

but, given what I've been reading on this thread and from some trollers, this really doesn't surprise me....

[Moderator]

112. Locking

The 'discussion' has deteriorated into issues solely related to Primary 2004 and this is the wrong forum for such discussions.