Was it the WAR or the anger that lost it for Dean?

[PSR40004]

I kep hearing it was Dean's stance on the WAR that lost him Iowa, others say he was too angry. Could it be most Democrats approve of the war? maybe just wanting a slightly differant direction? I hope it was the anger if so...

[BeatleBoot]

1. Neither.

It was John Kerry.

(Personally, I tire of the Dean-anger-talk)

[La_Serpiente]

2. I seriously don't think it was his stance

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Actually

I'm no Deanie, but he didn't try that hard in Iowa. He focused on NH. THAT is the test.

[Racenut20]

6. Didn't try hard?

He has been campaigning there for two years. I think the "veterans issue" cut him off at the knees.

[Loonman]

4. Neither

Dean's verbal missteps are turning people off.

How many times has he said things and retracted them later?

[adadem]

13. You're correct

and the anger is a close second. It was a good part of why I switched candidates. His behavior during his ranting speech was totally "unpresidential".

[FreeperSlayer]

5. Electability

eom

[sweetheart]

8. aye

eom

[SaddenedDem]

7. Try the voting machines

Perhaps it was the fact that the caucus votes all went to a server in Atlanta via modem lines before they were made public.

Folks, this is a pattern: A sudden "surge" at the last minute in polling and the surprise count at the end of the day.

It happened in California

It happened in Georgia

It's happening EVERYWHERE.

The republican party is chosing which candidate they WANT to run against.

[tinanator]

10. oh COME ON!

That is way out of line here. Dont discredit real voting issues with absurdist paranoia and/or sour grapes. This played out live on C-SPAN and had squat to do with BBV fraud.
-btw, it was his (AND his supporters) arrogance, dishonesty and shallowness that cut his throat.

[SaddenedDem]

11. Keep discounting the pattern

That's EXACTLY what they are counting on.

My husband is no BBVer, but when he heard this on the news last night, his comment was "Why are they rigging the caucus?"

[Loonman]

12. May come as a shock

Not everybody likes Dean.

[SaddenedDem]

14. Not the issue

It's just that simple. This is not about Dean/Kerry/Edwards/Gephardt supporters.

This is about rigged elections in every phase of the operation.

I presume you're a Kerry guy? Well, I guess it would surprise you to learn that I think they're going for an Edwards run. Bush will eat him alive. That's why they elevated him to 2nd.

So, if that's the plan, how do Kerry supporters feel now?

[Loonman]

17. I'm not an anybody guy

I don't pick until I'm in the booth, most of the time I don't even vote in primaries.

I see what Dean is trying to accomplish, but he just can't play off the instances when he puts his foot in his mouth and then retracts it later.

Why should I believe a single thing Dean says?

[SaddenedDem]

22. So tell me.....

This was an IOWA caucus, correct?

And it only affected IOWA voters, correct?

And they sent the results to a server in ATLANTA why?

They don't have computers in IOWA?????????? (I suspect Professor Doug Jones from the University of Iowa and BBV activist would disagree with this assessment.)

Does this make ANY sense to you?

[tinanator]

34. Each caucus clearly and openly showed their numbers and work

If you want to look at rigged elections, may I present you with California's recall numbers?
http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/gov/00.htm
If you think it was "those idiots in California" that did this, than you have no grip on electoral fraud issues as they pertain to electronic voting, and/or traditional methods of ballot box stuffing and stashing. Please do not diminish the importance of BBV by blaming the price of tea in China upon it.

[SaddenedDem]

36. EXACTLY what they count on

Your guy won, so it MUST BE TRUE.

Yes, let's discuss California...and Georgia....and Virginia....and Florida......

Been there, done that, seen this. It's a pattern, and they depend on the likes of people like you to deny it.

Just like the "angry white male voters" in Georgia in 2002 which they now cannot produce.

Perhaps, when your guy loses and we are stuck with another 4 years of Bush* you will begin to listen to the warnings that were sounded. But then, it will be too late.

[Loonman]

37. Dean came in 3rd in Iowa, alright

The delegates have spoken.

No loser like a sore loser, fer chrissakes.

[SaddenedDem]

39. And nothing quite like the uninformed

I see you have yet to addess my concerns. I also note you attempt to make this about the CANDIDATES when it's really about the PROCESS.

Take the PERSON out of the equation and deal with the issues presented.

[Loonman]

41. Your concerns don't warrant being addressed

Paranoid malarkey.

[SaddenedDem]

43. Wow!

Loonman definition:
paranoid malarkey (n) - 4 years of computerized elections creating an undeniable pattern. See Florida 2000, California 2003, Georgia 2002, Virginia 2003, Iowa 2004, etc.....

[tinanator]

45. ok ok ok ok

my guy didnt win, each and every thesis you present is lacking a little something, whats it called? Oh yeah, a rational basis. If anyone is putting a denial on BBV concerns...

[Zech Marquis]

19. so those Iowa voters were paid off, huh?

I watchd the caucus last night, and repeatedly I saw and heard more people side with Kerry and Edwards 1st and 2nd, THEN Dean 3 rd. Plain and simple, more people wanted Kerry and Edwards, and for all of Dean's money, mass supporters network, etc, so far he has some more work to do. BBV, my god what a lame excuse! :argh:

[PVnRT]

35. Oh, please

If you can prove your claim, then do so. Otherwise, don't jump in here with this completely moronic conspiracy theory horseshit.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

9. who knows what happened

Kerry's a big surprise. Who would have thought? If the field were merely Edwards, Kerry and an epileptic cat I would have had to have gone with the epileptic cat.

[ozymandius]

15. This should be a lesson to us all.

The two candidates that ran negative ads lost Iowa: Dean and Gephardt. Negative advertising is a mistake no matter in which form it comes. I believe that the electorate is sensitive to this issue - sensitive to the point of being sick of negative ads.

You want my vote? Tell me about yourself. I can make up my own damn mind about the other candidates.

[OpenMindedDem]

24. I agree, I like positive talk not all the hostility.

That's why Edwards is doing so well. He talks about what he will do without bashing Bush and all of the other candidates. He's my choice so far.

[wildwww2]

30. That is good for us then. Bu$h Inc.=Negitive attacks. They sure as hell

can`t run on his miserable record. Or how much people from behind the buses love him.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[jenk]

16. his tax plan hurt him

middle america does not want to hear about raising taxes on the working class. Kerry and Edwards will keep those tax cuts, Dean wants to get rid of all the tax cuts.

[joeybee12]

18. Tyr blaming it on the media--this time they're at fault

This time? Hell, they usually are.

Granted Dean made mis-steps, but so have other candidates, and even a certain unelected squatter. Yet the media does not report those.

They have their knives out for him, and it's starting to take its toll.

[Mr.Green93]

44. the media

seemed to build Dean up just so they could cut him down. (imho)

[liberalmuse]

20. It's the 'brand name'

Most Americans aren't as informed about political issues as people, for instance, who hang out at political message boards. Kerry and Edwards are safe brand names people feel they can trust. I'm not saying that's all to it, but if you don't keep up on politics, there will still be certain names that you recognize. It is the era of brand names--people are less concerned with what a person with a well-known name stands for--except for party affiliation, maybe (in the case of Bush and Schwartzenegger, though not necessarily in the case of Kerry and Edwards).

Dean is an unknown to a lot of people. I don't think it's his anger or war stance. I think Americans are not too concerned with the issues and most haven't a clue what the Bush administration has been up to, other than the glowing reports they get from Fox and CNN. I'm surprised that Dean was 3rd, but then again, I'm not, especially after remembering the 2002 elections. For me, it's the same thing all over again. Americans are apathetic, and whether or not we are killing innocent people abroad is much less important of an issue than gas for the SUV, or a new computer.

There are still more primaries. I'm going to wait and see, but if the same pro-war candidates are chosen time and time again--the 'safe brand names', I'm going to believe that Americans just don't give a shit and these same Americans will pull the lever for Bush rather than for someone new who supports many of the same policies.

On edit: I just wanted to add that the high turnout was a very good sign--to me, it means more people are interested in getting Bush out of office, but the fact that a pro-war ticket won the Iowa caucus tells me that not all of Bush's policies are as abhorrent to most Americans than we would think, at least in Iowa.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Every four years, it's the same thing

People make a big whoop-de-doo about the Iowa caucuses, but in the end, the Democratic winner almost never goes on to be President-- either he loses the nomination to another Democrat, or he loses out in the general election.

[liberalmuse]

28. Thanks!

I love the positive people here. I wish I could be one of them. I still feel hope, but I'm afraid, too. We not only need to get Bush out of the White House. We need someone in there who's going to do a 180, or at least a 90 degree veer from Bush policy. So much is at stake, and I'm a little freaked out. I still believe Dean will win at this point, but damn, last night was a disappointment and it woke me up to the possibility that Americans might be half dead.

[Art_from_Ark]

40. Iowa's just a trial run

It's like the first game of the baseball season. The real tests are yet to come.
People in New Hampshire won't give a tinker's cuss about Iowa, and people in Arkansas won't give a flip about how New Hampshire voted. It's the number of delegates that counts, not who scores first.

[Silverhair]

21. The ANGER hurt him.

Anger can be a powerful motivator, but it also cripples the reasoning ability. As a professional poker player, we love it when someone at the table gets angry. We call it being on, "tilt". The angry player then begins to play his cards irrationally, and loses. Anger does the same in the rest of life too. So while people may enjoy an angry candidate, they don't trust or vote for angry candidates.

[liberalmuse]

25. Okay, I've re-thought my position and agree...

If people want a 'safe' candidate, that probably means they don't want anyone getting all excited on them or changing policy too much from what it is now. Where is the soul and spirit of the American people? I hope we see it revived in New Hampshire.

[OpenMindedDem]

27. Changing position is one thing

Denying that you said the things you said is another. Don't forget Dean got caught dissing the Iowa caucuses last week. Of course maybe he's right about their importance.

[LeahMira]

47. It was/is the anger...

I think Americans are fed up with anger, and that's actually good for Democrats if they choose to take advantage of it. The Current Resident has manipulated the justified anger, as well as the fear of the citizens. Now, people see that the rationale for all that anger and all that war was a pack of lies. I think people are looking for hope and a vision for a return of better times.

Gov. Dean does need to understand that the man who can keep his cool and get the other side foaming at the mouth is the smart candidate. He is perfectly right to be angry, but the slow, controlled burn works better, at least IMO. Since I saw Sen. Kerry say that he trusted once but won't trust again ever, I can understand why the Iowa voters like him.

BTW, on morning TV there were lots of shots of Dean's post- caucus speech. Few of those spots broadcast what he said. They just broadcast the visuals. In fact, his speech was more of a pep rally, but just the visuals looked as if he were very angry... at what? Fill in the blank. Dean supporters, and everyone really, ought to cry foul.

Anyhow, this was one state. New Hampshire may be totally different. There are forty-nine more to go and plenty of time for all sorts of things to happen.

Also, if Democrats feel that the voting system has been tweaked in some way, this is one helluva time to worry about it. Why didn't Democrats do more to fix the broken system before now? There has been three years! Has anyone spoken to the issue of the Electoral College? If the votes went to Atlanta, did Democrats take a hard look at how that would work? Or were they, sad to say, thinking that it might work out for them and were they willing to take advantage if it gave them an edge even if it was somehow crooked?

[izzie]

26. AS a member of the same church he is in, I think this......

We like to keep our beliefs to our selfs and do not go for all this public display of our beliefs and he never should have opened up about it. Also this was the same religion that led the freedom of slaves and in the South it is a black church. I do not think Dean knew the history of this church. I know people who come from the South that used to joke that this was the church that put weather vanes on the steeple and not crosses. It is just what I think. I thought it was an error when he said the first word on it.Bush is backed by zealots. It makes it hard for him to win and the people or Iowa saw that.

[NewJeffCT]

29. my 2 cents

Dean has been painted as a radical, far-left liberal in so much of the national corporate media, that I think Democrats, who liked his angry voice in the beginning, got worried and wondered if Dean was actually electable.

[SaddenedDem]

31. Folks, PLEASE pay attention....PLEASE

Upthread, I have been discussing the possible manipulation of the Iowa caucus....logic is at play here...why did they send the results to ATLANTA and back to IOWA?

Now, add this headline from Edwards:
No one expected this,' says jubilant Edwards in Iowa

and please understand that this is deja vu - Florida 2000, Georgia 2002, Virginia 2003.....

In every example, they set up a "surprise surge in the polls" at the last minute to cover the unexpected results. They are playing this like a violin in every election.

Those of us who have been there, done that know this feeling all too well.

I don't care who you support - and it simply won't matter who any of us support if we aren't paying attention to what is happening here.

[Rockholm]

32. The Conservative Media Lost It

for Dean. They pounded him relentlessly for weeks. The media needs a story. Dean winning is no story. So they needed to bring him down to make a race of it.

[PATRICK]

33. a lot of things

That he might have seen coming but the positive ones drove him into a trap. Dean did what simply had to be done, but the head on against the garbage has not broken the wall. Too many big endorsements came when no one had yet voted, creating impossible expectations in the wrong place. The other victims, pushovers really, were the media and the Bush campaign, unused to democracy at work. In the weeks to come I bet they'll have more egg on their faces, which look like fried omelets after three years of falling face first into collapsing Bush souffle. They'll increase the free publicity that comes from a contest the Bushite establishment should ignore, but can't because that would mean taking the hair-raising risk of playing fair. They too are forced by a deterministic fate and our people should never let them off the hook.

A seasoned Kerry machine and candidate against a "too often to the well" Gephardt with less gravitas for the campaign and job. And it was wrong, despite the discouragement of supposedly diehard Kerry supporters, to count Kerry out, as I suspected. And on personal presentation and appeal Edwards with the real slapped together grass roots helps prove it might just be more about the "it" factor than any machine at all.

None of that however, no retrospective analysis or predictions, matter a damn. The voting process is now in full swing and testing the candidates to the max. The candidates, and not necessarily their eager volunteers. Nervous people crying woe, or "it's all over" are selling all these guys short. Fault finding is useless. Nor as an Edwards supporter do I take smug comfort in the "it" factor which also propelled Reagan and Schwarzenhoositz to where they could do the maximum damage to the people. I just see the process is off to a good start and in competition there will be a lot of pain. There can be only one, with a Veep consolation prize.

Turnout, crowds, publicity. Keep that tide rolling in. Finding the right candidate is one thing, rallying the voters is the megaforce to retake the nation's mind and heart from top to bottom. People have to get involved and feel their power.

It will get more interesting and with Gephardt out the primaries may more easily turn decisive. Liebermann should be the next to realize what he should have the first hot minute he thought of running.

[JanMichael]

38. Shouldn't this be in the primary forum?

:shrug:

[0007]

42. The media & KR

[Merlin]

46. His weakness was also a strength: his un-self-consciousness.

What many people responded to in Dean is that he is not a bit self conscious. That's why he makes those unatractive grimaces while he stands on stage waiting to be introduced. The resulting spontaneity is why he sometimes says the right thing in the wrong way. But it's also the reason he appears unscripted, and non-political. It lends him a fearless demeanor.

While this is wonderful in many ways, aspects of it are deadly. His lack of self restraint has resulted in some pretty un-Presidential behaviour--and I'm talking about situations other than his campaign-killing display of drunken bravado last night. I've always been bothered, for example, by the cheer-leading he does at the end of every speech: shouting "You Have The Power" ad nauseum. Dammit, Howard! Let somebody else do that. It comes across as extremely un-Presidential. Can you imagine JFK doing that????!!!!

Still, Howard is a great man, and deserves the thanks of all of humanity for having the balls to do what was needed at a crucial hour in human history. Whoever our nominee is, the future of America, quite literally, and even the future of the world, hangs on our ability to beat the fascists before they irredeemably destroy all that this nation has stood for.

[Moderator]

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