War on Christianity

[SkipNewarkDE]

One of my right - wing friends, who although he claims he thinks Sean Hannity is insane still seems to pluck an awful lot of his "arguments" and "talking points" directly from Sean's mouth.

He hit me with a good one Friday night. He claimed that there was a real war on Christianity these days. He said it was getting really ridiculous that offices could not put up Christmas trees or decorations, or permit Christmas Cards, that instead it was encouraged to say "Happy Holidays", and that this was an indication that Christianity was being oppressed, or attacked. He then went on to say that there was multiple incidents in which Christmas displays weren't permitted at certain schools, but a menorah and kwanzaa display were permitted to remain. He complained that we were becoming a secular society (is that a bad thing?) and that Christianity was being attacked if it is expressed.

I shook my head in disbelief. I asked him if there was a problem with him celebrating Christmas at his church or at home, or with friends and family? Is there a problem with a company enforcing a generic holiday greeting or decorations, out of RESPECT for other faiths?

But I am curious about this talking point he cited that claimed that some places had these other displays, ie. menorah, but wouldn't permit Christmas decorations. He said it happened all over the place. I think he's nuts, and haven't been able to corroborate his claim. Anyone hear about this, have a link to a story with the situation?

Or IS there some terrible attack on christianity by secular society going on, and I wasn't invited to the party?

[Maddy McCall]

1. Yeah, an attack on Christianity is a part of the Homosexual Agenda

Why even discuss such bullshit topics with a right-winger?

[Jonnycat26]

2. Dunno...

Maybe he has a point... I mean, I can't believe they took Christmas break away for students and stopped giving workers off on Christmas.

Oh, they didn't do that. Wake me up when they do, then maybe Hannity will have a point.

[Habibi]

40. There are an awful lot of workers who *do* have to work on Christmas

[LeahMira]

84. Yes, and...

There are an awful lot of workers who *do* have to work on Christmas

Yes, there are hospital staff, police and firemen, as well as security guards and such. There are also an awful lot of non-Christians who volunteer time in such positions as they can fill so that these folks have an easier day on December 25. A group of people from my synagogue volunteers at Christmas and Easter to wash dishes, bring meals up to patients, do cleaning chores, and take care of some simple clerical work for the hospital so the regular staff can take time off or at least have an easier day. Some of us have to work on Rosh Hashanah and/or Yom Kippur also.

[jsw_81]

78. We're a very diverse nation

Millions of people don't even celebrate Christmas, but instead celebrate Hanukkah, Ramadan, Winter Solstice. Some people don't celebrate any holidays whatsoever. So when the schools call it "winter break" instead of "Christmas holiday," they aren't slamming Christians, only acknowledging the fact that we live in a very diverse nation. Do you have a problem with that?

[Terwilliger]

3. It's the claim made by those who are willing to impose Christianity on oth

good Christians know that most examples of public display can be offensive or untoward amongst people who believe differently

[never cry wolf]

4. I am running a small firm

I started here in 1976 and am now in charge. In my memory we have NEVER sent out Christmas cards but always holiday cards, non-secular, happy holidays and here's to a prosperous new year sort of thing and the majority of cards we receive are the same way.

There is no war on Christianity except by the hypocritical non-inclusive fundies!

[spooky3]

5. ask him for a specific citation (url, etc.) of when

"multiple incidents in which Christmas displays weren't permitted at certain schools, but a menorah and kwanzaa display were permitted to remain."

I'll bet you a donation to the candidate of our choice that he can't give you a valid one.

[monobrau]

9. I'll second that

He's spewing right wing talking points with nothing to back it up.
I know that some of my clients are jewish and at least 2 are in "mixed" marriages, so it would be tactless on my part to wish everyone a merry Christmas, even though that is what my family celebrates. When I wish a happy holiday, I'm including the entire season that includes New Year's, anyway. What's the problem?

[Beaker]

66. but he heard it on Rush-

so it's got to be true.

[A HERETIC I AM]

6. "I am considered evil by those who feel oppressed because i refuse

to let them shove their religion down my throat"

(I dont know who wrote it, but i wish i had)

They percieve it as a "War" on Christianity but all it is is the rest of society resisting Christianitys insistance that we all follow their demands

[arewethereyet]

61. so do you work on "Christian" holidays ?

they are, after all, meaningless to you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

67. Actually, yes i do. Often.

"so do you work on "Christian" holidays ?"

they are, after all, meaningless to you."

I am curious how you arrived at the conclusion that Christian holidays are meaningless to me.
Have we met? Do you know me? Or are you just surmising i am completely devoid of sentimental or spiritualistic sensibilities and therefore a proper target for your insipid stereotyping?

Yes, I do work on holidays when there is work to be done. I have spent more holidays on the road and away from my family than i care to mention.

The prospect of recourse by the Admins of DU prevents me from saying what i would like to say in response to your post.

[LeahMira]

92. Matter of fact...

so do you work on "Christian" holidays ?


Yes, I have worked on December 25. I didn't this year, but I had a job at a convenience store for a few years and I worked on December 25 either because it was my turn to work on that day or because I switched with someone so s/he could celebrate the Christian holiday.

[salin]

7. Read recently that this theme has been pushed

by some in the whole reconstructionist movement to go along with their "we are in the end days" theme... and has just enough "truth" in their explanations (we can't do x so we are being persecuted) that others pick up on this.

Of course when one points to real, historical events of religious persecution the examples cited here to froth up the faithful are ludicrous. Talk about progroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. Talk about the crusades. Talk about periods in European history on both protestant and catholic sides where punishment of not avowing particular beliefs could lead to jail and death. Or discuss the early Christians persecution in Rome.

Then pick apart examples cited ... and ask for proof. Locally a woman wrote a letter to the paper claiming that she had been told that she couldn't put a sign in her yard about Christmas... and was told this was because the government said so... now this is so silly that it was called (by other laters to the editor) stating that no such laws exist and someone was clearly mistaken, and that if someone would be told that they couldn't display something in their yard (if true) it would be more likely to a community association (like a condo owners group) having a covenant that was agreed upon by members of that association.

I think the 'stories' are making the rounds pushed by politicized leaders of the religious right - to keep folks "scared" and thus able to be politically mobilized. I say this because the examples cited are somehow so similar.. but always undocumented.

[LeahMira]

94. In truth, though...

Locally a woman wrote a letter to the paper claiming that she had been told that she couldn't put a sign in her yard about Christmas... and was told this was because the government said so... now this is so silly that it was called (by other laters to the editor) stating that no such laws exist and someone was clearly mistaken, and that if someone would be told that they couldn't display something in their yard (if true) it would be more likely to a community association (like a condo owners group) having a covenant that was agreed upon by members of that association.


A lot of the time you hear about some incident that actually did happen. It happens because some people in positions of some authority are not educated and informed about the laws. They make some public statement that is manifestly incorrect, or they take some action, but eventually they are corrected and quite willingly they agree to "do the right thing."

OTOH, some Christians take these incidents as examples of how Christians are being "persecuted." These folks never mention that the issue was resolved and that when the law was explained, the law usually permitted whatever was originally thought to be not permitted. These Christians won't accept the fact that some people just make mistakes. They use these incidents as examples of how the "secularists" are "persecuting" people of faith. Actually, more often than not, the mistakes are made by some of their fellow Christians who choose not to search out the facts and who hastily, and with huge chips on their shoulders, ass-u-me things that are not true.

IMO, all of them ought to be forced to watch "Gentleman's Agreement" ... or maybe read "Black Like Me." They have it so easy, they don't even appreciate what crap they put other people through without even thinking or being aware of what they are doing.

[alcuno]

8. It's like saying that there is a war on white men. A complete sham.

How can those in the majority who are also in power be the ones being discriminated against? It's a false argument. Claiming that you are being attacked is a well-known Republican strategy designed to divide and conquer. They've been doing it for years.

[Faygo Kid]

10. Christianity has been hijacked

Ever check out the Beatitudes(Christ's Sermon on the Mount)? All those who died (e.g., against the Nazis) as profession of their faith? Don't equate Christianity with the George W. Bush's of this world. There is a message of love, peace and looking out for the other guy/gal that is totally missing from the "Christianity" that has been hijacked by the Right Wing. Not just the obvious Falwells and Robertsons, but the even more evil Bushies and Cheneys of this world. Quit bashing Christianity per se; start seeing the evil done by its hijacking.

[A HERETIC I AM]

27. "Blessed are the Cheesemakers?"

and
"The Greeks shall inherit the earth"

From "Monty Python's Life of Brian"



sorry...couldnt resist

[put out]

46. "he said the MEEK"

"Oh, that's nice. They have such a hard time here." Or some such nonsense. I would also like an actual, factual, verifiable example of when this thing occurred.

[LeahMira]

95. You are right, faygokid.

There is a message of love, peace and looking out for the other guy/gal that is totally missing from the "Christianity" that has been hijacked by the Right Wing. Not just the obvious Falwells and Robertsons, but the even more evil Bushies and Cheneys of this world. Quit bashing Christianity per se; start seeing the evil done by its hijacking.

I'm not Christian, but I do understand this. Sometimes, though, it's hard to remember when the Fundies start with their nonsense. They are so provoking and so offensive! They would try the patience of one of their own saints! And, it's disconcerting, to say the least, to look at the amount of political power they seem to be gaining in this country. To those of us who are not Christian, it's really frightening. My people have experienced the Holocaust, but the Islamic people also experienced the Crusades, and the American Indians barely survived the genocide that is part of this nation's history (Chivington was a Methodist minister when he wasn't slaughtering Indians at Sand Creek) ... and many of the world's peoples have been persecuted in the most brutal of ways by people claiming to be Christian.

I know that not all Christians are evil, and not even most of them are evil. But, faygokid, as a person who is Jewish, it is not incumbent upon me, nor would it be appropriate for me to speak out against the Falwells and Robertsons of the world. I will certainly support any Christians that do in any way I reasonably can, but I think it is for good Christians to "lead the charge," as it were. Comments from outside Christianity are only going to contribute to the arguments of those Christians who claim that they are persecuted. I don't know if you are Christian or not, but IMO the Christians are the ones whose duty it is to speak out against those who are hijacking their religion.

So, can you tell me who is doing that at the same level of prominence as Falwell and Robertson are operating? It's fine and good that some of your people and ministers are doing what they can, but where is the respected Christian leadership with the same sort of clout as Pat and Jerry have and why don't I hear them? Maybe I'm wrong to think this, but when I don't hear someone like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. out there telling Pat and Jerry how wrong they are or else just preaching the truth of Christ's message, although in my heart I know that there are good Christians, I have a really hard time believing it.

BTW, I detest Ariel Sharon and I do support the Jewish Peace Movement. I'm also waiting for some Jewish leader to stand up and say, "Mr. Sharon, tear down that wall." So, I'm not trying to ignore our own faults... and they are many.

[Faygo Kid]

99. A thoughtful post. Thanks. Wish I had an answer.

I suppose a message of peace, tolerance and forgiveness is not very sexy these days. Still, many could be more vocal and stand up. I grew up in the Lutheran Church (not Missouri Synod, thank God), and wish the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - a large and liberal synod - would do a much better job. (Sorry about Luther and the Jews; I had nothing to do with it, of course). Bottom line? I agree with you, and it's time Christians spoke out against the hate on the Right. Thanks.

[randr]

11. Some Christians only go to church on Sunday

others never leave church.

[ulysses]

12. some really believe this.

I work with some evangelicals (including the creationist science teacher), and while I don't know that they buy into the whole "end times" crap, they do feel very much put upon by the existence of the secular society.

[Terran]

13. To answer your specific question...

I doubt that your friend will be able to cite any specific instance of a public place that allowed non-Christian holiday symbols but wouldn't allow Christian symbols. Just make him cite a specific case. If he can't, then tell him he's full of sh*t. Which he is.

This War on Christianity is as real as the great War on White Males. Only very selfish, narrow-minded people see civility and respect for others as a war on themselves.

Dirk

[blondeatlast]

14. Leo again, eh???

He does get around, don't he?

[mitchum]

15. Bring on the lions

OK, not really. But some "Christians" really do want to do away with that whole persecution gospel thing. I guess it's not as enriching as the prosperity gospel...

[leesa]

16. Isn't Christmas basically just a winter solstice type of celebration

anyway? I don't think any history of Jesus puts his birthdate on December 25th, but it was moved there to counter the "pagan" winter celebrations. I think it's great that we simply say happy holidays.

[thebaghwan]

73. It wasn't really put there so much as the pagan days where overtaken by

the Christians. We don't really know what time of your Jesus was born. December 25th was the birthday of Mithra. Mithraism was a religion that challenged early Christianity. Mithraism was the official religion of the Roman Legions. There are many similarities between Mithraism and early Christianity. Mithra was the only son of Ahura Mazda, he was a dying, saving, resurrecting god. The pine tree, holly and other items that stayerd green in the heart of winter(the symbolic death of the earth) were holy to Mithra (hence the "Christmas Tree"). December 25 was Mithra's birthday as it is the time when the day starts to get a little longer in sunlight everyday. The symbolic rebirth of the earth.

[Solomon]

80. Very good baghwan.

You've done your homework. It's a shame that christians won't study these things.

[RainDog]

85. 4000 years before Christ

Inanna, or Ishtar, was the "Christ" of her time...Mithra only predates Christ by one hundred + years.

Inanna was the goddess recognized by the Sumerians, the oldest known civilization, as a forerunner to Demeter/Ceres and the myth of the descent to the underworld with the onset of winter and the resurrection of life in the spring.

monotheism, imho, is based upon male anxiety over the female ability to give birth with certainy of maternity (vs paternal anxiety).

YMMV, but it's interesting that other male primates assure that offspring are their own my killing infants of females which are not their own, causing the female to go into estrus and leading to an offspring of his own.

of course, Christians don't like to hear these things, and that's one reason why they think they are under attack, but a religion has to stand or fall on its own merits, not by pretending to uniqueness.

[WoodrowFan]

87. Actually, no.

Actually it predates Christian attempts to coopt Pagan holidays. It comes from a belief that important events always occur on the same date. Jesus was crucified on Passover so it was assumed that he was conceived on passover. (It was also thought that the world would end on that day then as well) Count forward nice months from Passover (in March) and bingo, December 25. Some early Christan groups celebrated Christmas as early as the 2d Century CE, at a time when they did everyhting possible to avoid being confused with pagans. That is one reason why they were persecuted by Rome, they would not observe official (Pagan) holidays. The effort to coopt Pagan days and Saints started in the 6th or 7th Centuries CE. The idea that December 25 was picked because of its Pagan roots is more a modern myth than anything.



BTW, this is just the date of Christmas, modern trappings such as Christmas trees do have clear Pagan roots.

[LeahMira]

90. Yep.

Isn't Christmas basically just a winter solstice type of celebration

Yep. If you look at mythology and history you will see that every group had some ritual or celebration at the darkest time of the year, and all of these rituals and celebrations have had something to do with light. Even the Chinese New Year, although it doesn't always coincide with the solstice, is characterized by fireworks and sparklers... i.e. lights.

Long time ago when I worked for a non-profit group whose mission (in part) was to facilitate dialogue between leaders of various religions, the director of the organization suggested that instead of having a nativity display in the city square (which display was even then coming under criticism), the city sponsor a celebration display in which each group could show some sort of thing that would inform people about their winter holiday. There was great objection to her idea, all couched in the separation of church and state and so on, but the behind the scenes talk was that some religious leaders did not want their display to be set out on an equal footing with other religious groups. Some were quite miffed that their nativity would be seen as on a par with a (godless, pagan, etc.) Wiccan solstice celebration. For some reason, some Christians seem to think they are better than the rest of us!

[delhurgo]

17. There is a case in New York where it was decided , wrongly imo, that ...

a 'menorah' and a 'star and cresent' are not religious symbols but a nativity is. I believe they now display these symbols with the tree, but not a nativity scene. I haven't read about this in depth so I don't know what the reasoning is behind it. But it seems obviously incorrect. I was floored when I heard about it too. I saw 'experts' discuss it on several different talk shows and nobody could make sense of it. Clearly a case that should, and will, be overturned by the Supreme Court. But from what I recall, your friend is correct. This is what they do in New York, I believe, 'city' schools.

[kayell]

19. Link?

[delhurgo]

22. Here:

I was a little off in my above post. The Jewish and Islamic symbols are not under the tree, but reportedly are being promoted by the school - while the nativity is not allowed. Note who the stories are by. But as I've stated, I heard about this being discussed on various talk shows, so I assume they are correct:

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1230346.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104916,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/12/161706.shtml

[Walt Starr]

28. Sorry, but not one credible source has been cited

Keep looking, bit none of these three sources can be considered as credible.

[kayell]

29. If this is actually what happened it is a truly stupid and ignorant move

on somebody in the New York School systems part. I doubt that it qualifies as a war on christianity. It certainly does violate the seperation of church and state, and I hope that they get hung out to dry (just like the people in schools that post the 10 commandments do)....Ok, that was a bit petty of me. Yes, it's Not ok to do this, no matter what religions are involved.

My if is because of the "news" organizations involved and the inability to turn up any better sources from a google of the names in the article. Everything else seems to refer back to these.

[Honesthumanbeing]

18. I have an example

My aunt, who is an elementary school teacher, teaches at a school that forbid the display of a pine tree in snow (because it resembled a christmas tree), but allowed the display of a menorah. It should be noted, however, that the pine tree was removed at the request of a parent--in other words, multiple faiths were being represented initially, and then one person intervened against one particular faith.

It seems like the general practice is to avoid making references to any particular faith during the holiday season. I think this is sort of silly; I myself celebrate Christmas, but I am not bothered at all by Jewish people celebrating Hannacha (sp?) openly, and I have never once met a Jewish person that was offended by my celebrating Christmas. It seems to me that those who are most bothered by a free expression of religion are those that dislike religion in general; my experience my be biased in this regard, however-- I have met some rabid atheists in my day.

[salin]

20. also sometimes

comes from members of other faiths... if they live/work/go to school in an area where a particular religion is pushed to the point of ostracization of those who are not of that faith.

For example, last fall a friend reported that their child (maybe in third grade) responded to a question by the teacher asking if any actually believed in evolution (to third graders!) this one child raised the hand... and the teacher not only denigrated the child for not believing a strict interpretation of the creation story from the Bible, but encouraged other students to join in on the denigrating of the child.

Btw this isn't a friend of a friend story... I communicated directly with the mother about the situation.

[A HERETIC I AM]

32. Was the situation with the child in a public school?

If so, the teacher has no business promoting her dogma.

[salin]

36. yes it was in a public school.

I agree.

[A HERETIC I AM]

55. Shameful. Absolutely shameful. I would tell the kid to tell his/her ..

teacher that;

"It is just as respectable to be a modified monkey as modified dirt"

- Huxley (an associate of Darwin, if memory serves)

Asking a 3rd grader to stand up to authority is asking a bit much, i know, but teachers like that need to be taken down a peg. I would love the opportunity to ask that teacher something like:

"could you tell me exactly when the idea of "Poof,- things miraculously appeared" became a viable scientific concept?"

[spooky3]

34. Sorry, but a published citation would be more helpful to verify facts.

If events happened as you stated, and it was a public school, the students likely have a case of discrimination against religion because some religions were being favored over others. The point is that the school has to treat all of them similarly, which can involve leaving symbols of many religions on display AND a symbol or statement provided by the non-religious. Or the school can also treat all students similarly by excluding all of the religious-oriented celebrations so that the school is not appearing to establish a religion or religion, which would discriminate against those not following any of those religions.

I know laws are not always followed, but I also know about urban legends.

[Honesthumanbeing]

42. except that

No one requested that any non-christian stuff be removed. Had they, the school would likely have complied.

[oneighty]

41. What does a Christmas tree

have to do with Christian symbolism?

180

[put out]

51. It is all mixed up with paganism.

The evergreen tree symbolizes ever life. It is erected during the longest periods of darkness (12/21 in these parts). It is to give us hope that the long darkness will end. Until then, I vote we all crawl into bed and hibernate. Don't worry so much about not being able to put a farm scene on your desk. It is silly and not worth worry. Celebrate, hibernate, worship in your very own way.

[Minnesota Twin]

21. I think I may agree with your friend...

I was told not to put up some Christmas decorations (the Nativity) in my student office, but some people got to put up their holiday displays. I do think its unfair. I'm not trying to display or force my religion upon others, but if they get to put up some of their displays, why can't I?

[salin]

24. question...

a case of over zealous PC...

or a war?

I hear language bandied about by some Christians (I am one... just of a rather different persuasion) of "persecution" - very strong language.

I am amazed at the lack of perspective. Persecution were the pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. Persecution was the treatment of early Christians by the Romans. Persecution was the treatment of non Christians during the crusades. Persecution was the treatment of the Jews under Hitler.

I believe that language of persecution rather than over zealous - inconvenient and unfair PC policies (which when well grounded ... should be challenged) - is very intentional. The language of persecution is used to keep an "Us/They" mentality ... it is used by the more extremists to push the End Times message for political gain (the rhetoric of persecution of Christians of a sign of the End times... is merged with the examples such as christmas displays of said persecution... which given the REAL examples of religious persecution I list above is ludicrous.)

I believe that the over zealousness of some Christians to push particular pieces of legislation (and including a very small but very vocal group with media access promoting rewriting the form of government to a more theocratically centered form)... creates a strong counter reaction against all Christians... including rather PC and sometimes uneven application of rules intended to demonstrate neutrality. Discussing this seems fair - and challenging policies sounds fair. But to delve into the language of persecution... is dangerous, imo.

[economic justice]

26. but....

"I believe that the over zealousness of some Christians to push particular pieces of legislation..."

I am not a practicing Christian, however I think Christians of every persuasion should stand up for what they believe. Is there any question that Jews have not been at the forefront of pushing their agenda foreign and domestically? Yet, nobody ever talks about their meddling in government. Just my opinion.

[Minnesota Twin]

30. What?

I just said I don't think it's fair at all that I cannot display my religious displays in public but others who are non-Christian can.

[kayell]

33. What kind of displays were they?

I can decorate my office with all the tinsel and lights I want (I see no particular reason to do so), but working in an office any religious symbols would not be viewed as ok. I have to wonder if the display of a nativity scene (or a menorah) is the most professional thing to do in the workplace.

If you object to the display of the religious symbols in the workplace, I suggest that you complain, and file a lawsuit based on seperation of church and state (if a govt. office) if your complaints are not redressed.

[spooky3]

35. Minnesota twin did not clearly say that the other displays had religious

symbols in them. In his/her first post, s/he referred to them as "holiday" displays. I wonder if s/he meant they were simply tinsel and lights, etc. That would explain why others' displays were acceptable.

[kayell]

44. I noticed that and suspect it was a secular holiday display

few offices would be foolish enough to do something that could be seen as that discriminatory. Not saying it doesn't happen, but sure would be nice to hear or see better cooberating details, particularly in the case of the major religion in this country doing the alleging. Especially when they are making accusations of persecution on the level of a religious war.

In any case, I think that religious symbols are inappropriate in the work place, unless you work for a religious organization.

I do have to wonder why so many christians think that they need to defend their god so desperately. It almost makes me think they may not think he's all that omnipotent and omniscient as they claim.

[salin]

37. Right and this is my point - what you describe isn't about persecution

fair policy - yes that it is what it is about.

Raised that point because the I frequently hear and read references from the religious right about Christian Persecution... and then they use examples such as these to demonstrate "persecution."

Just wanted to point out that it is fair to raise a question about unfair policy... but if the conversation turns to the meme of "persecution" we should all be careful to point out the HUGE difference between bad policy and religious persecution.

[put out]

72. Where were you forbidden to do a religious display?

What other religious displays were allowed? Was this on public property. Was this in a public school. Which displays were allowed, and what were you prohibited from displaying. I haven't heard any specifics, and now I am becoming very interested in them. So, tell us all just what happened. Or admit what never happened. The truth shall set you free.

[LeahMira]

97. You said...

... that you wanted to put up a nativity scene. Did you ask if you could have a little wreath, or a little red and green candle, or maybe a pointsettia on your desk?

Speaking as a Jewish person, and knowing that I will hear some disagreement in some Jewish quarters, I still object to the public display of a menorah for Hanukkah. The tradition is to light the candles at home and to place the menorah in a window where it can be seen from the street. Sometimes, depending on the congregation, they light candles in the synagogue also... but not always. That is where the celebration belongs, IMO, at home or at the place of worship. I object to the public displays because I see how commercialized Christmas has become as a result of Christian efforts to decorate everywhere. I don't want to see Hanukkah turned into just one more reason for people to feel that they have to shop and buy for everyone in the family, especially not to the point where the religious meaning of the holiday seems to be lost... or lost except for the hour that Christians spend in church on December 25.

We are supposed to gather with family members for candle lighting each night and spend the time while the candles are burning doing something that we all enjoy. No work is to be done during that time. The dishes get washed after the candles go out. When we had children at home, we told the story of Judah Maccabee and talked about what it means for our lives. We remembered the Jewish people who are not free to be Jewish openly even today in the world, and we prayed for their freedom to come soon. We played games together, and sometimes we just talked about things that were going on in our lives and what the Jewish attitude or response to those events would be. We may have exchanged small gifts, or sometimes we did something special for one another... like since it's Hanukkah, let's all go out for ice cream tonight. For me, Hanukkah is a wonderful, quiet, family sort of time to touch base with the people I love most without all the chores to get done or any shopping and wrapping hassles and so on. Our little menorah is the only decoration we have in the house, and the rest of the year it stands on the bookshelves because it's pretty. So, I'd really hate to see the holiday become commercialized as Christmas has been commercialized. It's far too important to me to let that happen.

When I hear about Christians who complain that they can't decorate and so on, I guess I don't really understand their problem. You are celebrating the birth of the person you believe is G-d. So why are you so anxious to turn that into a commercial free-for-all? I've heard that suicides go up during the Christmas season, and also drunkenness and fighting and a lot of other things. Stress seems to be at an all-time high for you. Why would you do these things? Why would you want to put yourself and everyone you love through the headaches instead of just using the free time to get together and enjoy one another. I just don't get it.

But that's your religious choice, and understand or not, I respect your right to do all of that. But don't try to do that with my holiday, please!

[Walt Starr]

23. The "war on Crhistianity" meme is the biggest load of total bullshit

being spewed by the right wing since the "liberal media" meme.

It is the worst sort of lie there is.

[Nexus7]

25. Insidious strategy

This follows the familiar republican theme that is propagated from the right wingie shows down to watercooler conversation. The idea is to use very extreme language and positions and reiterate them till at least part of it ends up becoming conventional wisdom. At this point rational people concede while still under the belief that they are merely being fair. Keep in mind that not only does this dissemination involve ideas, but also language. Here are some examples.

Ideas
- Creationism - We are at the point where 30% or more of people in the poll de jeur will pick that creationism should be taught alongside scientifically derived theories so that it get a "fair" hearing.

- The Opression of Christianity - Once they wail enough about the Alabama judge's stone, people will accept that religious symbols can be placed in government facilities, as long as all faiths are represented.

- Clinton - After the 10 year campaign of lies by Congress, people will accept that the Clinton's did something wrong, although it might not be treasonous.

Language
- Partial birth abortion - Use of this language transforms an health/medical/social issue into one of morality and rights

- Clintonian - Use of the term reinforces the idea that Clinton did something materially wrong

Obviously I could go on, but the way to detect this nonsense is to compare with other times or places. The views ofthe Democratic party for example, are right-wing view in most European nations. That's how succesful this has been.

[Mari333]

31. Only war on christianity I see is by Right wing extremist fundamentalist

christians. They think they own the definition of christianity.
They dont.

[camero]

38. Isn't it "Un-Christian" to openly display images?

Or to point with pride at your faith, like the Scribes and Pharisees?
There is no "attack" on Christianity. The "attack" is by the RW on people who realize that their faith is a private matter.

And the posting of the 10 commandments actually goes against the 10 commandments of which one says there should be no display of graven images. So technically worshiping a headstone of the 10 commandments is "idol worship".

[amber dog democrat]

39. Let him proove it.

Where are these places that discriminate against Christians?
Its part a myth that conserative Christians use to attack the separation of church and state. You may be as Christian as you like as long as you don't impose the doctrine/dogma on others. But that would not be fun would it?

[solinvictus]

43. Christianity

I don't know if there's any concerted attack, but the repression of traditional Christmas holiday decorations and greetings is absurd. In Scotland, there was a ban on holiday decorations out of fear of offending Muslims. My answer: screw the Muslims living in Scotland. If they're so damned offended, let them return to the "freedom" of their countries of origin. I'm certain that these Muslim nations are equally concerned about offending Christians.

[PsychoDad]

76. Before you rail against muslims...

I have to ask, did the muslims ask for the ban in scotland, or was it another group that asked for it? (out of fear that it would be offensive to muslims, and perhaps others)
It may suprise you to learn that there are many Christans who do not celebrate christmas, nor do they care to indulge in the pagan symbology of the holidays.

Most muslims I know would not wish to begrudge Christans, Jews, Pagans or anyone else their holidays or symbols. As the Quran states, "there shall be no compulsion in religion". Please don't blame the muslims for a decision they may have had no part in.

[LeahMira]

98. Baloney!

I don't know if there's any concerted attack, but the repression of traditional Christmas holiday decorations and greetings is absurd.

It certainly would be if it were happening. Do you go shopping in December? Surely you must at least hit the grocery stores. Do you ever drive down "Main Street" in your city or town? Have a meal at a restaurant... even McDonalds? There is no repression of traditional Christmas holiday decorations and greetings anywhere.

In Scotland, there was a ban on holiday decorations out of fear of offending Muslims. My answer: screw the Muslims living in Scotland.

Well, screw them only if Scotland did not at any time issue an open invitation to immigrants from all the nations of the world to come to Scotland to seek their fortunes. The situation in this country is a tad different. You see, we said: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

If they're so damned offended, let them return to the "freedom" of their countries of origin. I'm certain that these Muslim nations are equally concerned about offending Christians.

This sounds a lot like the "but Clinton" excuse. Hmmm.........

[Kinkistyle]

45. Civil Rights movement a war on whites, women's rights a war on men, etc...

Yep. Anytime you try to create an environment of fairness or balance an inequality its actually a "war". So gay rights is a war on heterosexuality and the disabilities act is a war on fully-abled folks. See how simple it is?

[Malva Zebrina]

47. I think that atheists, who are harder to herd than a bunch of cats

have finally joined together into a coherent group and have conspired to eliminate Christianity from enjoying it's usual front and center stage in the celebrations that center around the winter solstice.

It is those evil, commie atheist conspirators who are responsible for the demise of or the corruption of the Christian religion. :nopity: :D

[kayell]

50. Damn those evil, commie atheist conspirators!

and right after the christians had finished stealing solstice from the pagans!

[Kinkistyle]

53. Heh, I am actually a member of "American Atheists".

But I am also a parishioner of the Unitarian Church. Anyway, I enjoy debating materialism, theodicy and apologetics with my fellow atheists, but the recent Iraq War stuff has caused some major rifts.

[BiggJawn]

48. Pastor told him they were "at WAR"...

It's all part of the Fundy Rap. Satan is lurking behind every corner trying make you "lose" your salvation through such tempting things like booze and (gasp!) SEX....And "Secular Society" (as opposed to what? what the Taliban had?) is constantly ATTACKING Christianity, and you must be a "Warrior in Christ, in the Full ARMOUR of GOD" to defend the faith against the attacks of the evil one, for we rassle not with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers...yada, yada, yada....

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm only an Atheist who came to that point only after years of studying "The WORD", but is not salvation also refered to as being in a "state of Grace", and is not Grace defined by some as an undeserved gift, given freely to the undeserving?

And if so, then HOW can you "lose" a gift? Is GAWD what we used to call an "indian giver"? One who gives and takes back accordoing to his whim at the moment?

If Christianity is so good and right, WHY does it need to be defended by such puny beings as Man? Can't GAWD stand on his omnipotent OWN 2 feet?

[Malva Zebrina]

52. I have tried for years and years to find out what "grace" is

I have asked many, many people. No one seems to know how to define it. It is, I have been told a "special gift" but no one has been able to tell me in my sincere queries, how they know they have the special gift. :shrug:

[BiggJawn]

56. Surprisingly, Dr. Gene Scott defined "grace" pretty handily.

Say what you may about ol' Gene, but he DID get his PHD in Divinity fonm Stanford, not some "Close cover before Striking " Bible College run by some telly-vangelist.
And he defined Grace as an undeserved gift. Wish I could remember the full definition. Sounded reasonable, if you belive in supreme beings and all that.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. that sounds interesting

but I still wonder how one knows they have the undeserved gift! I mean there are times when I feel as though I have conquored something and it seems as though it was easy, or easier than I thought and I am pleased with the final result. Is this a gift? an undeserved gift? If so, then how can an atheist get the gift if they do not believe in a god? I mostly believe the results came from my own effort or even luck or fate, but not from a god that is smiling down upon me bestowing an undeserved gift. I mean is it only believers who call it "grace"? and is it something exclusive to believers? If I claimed I had the same thing, how would a believer treat that? An infidel stole the "grace"? :D :shrug:

[BiggJawn]

62. I guess we won't know until we get there.

If there is a "There", which I seriously doubt.

There was one more phrase I recall from Scott's sermon: "Unmerited Favor".
One could almost make the case that those who think they desreve grace least probably have it most, yes?

[Lars39]

49. Where's SkipNewarkDE ?

Were we just assigned some busy work again? You know the kind that kept us busy in 3rd grade?

[kayell]

54. Hmm, checking in with his buddy Leo?

oops never mind, that's another republican friend.

[Lars39]

57. Leo does get around, doesn't he?

:)

[Malva Zebrina]

60. Would that be Leo Galt?

.

[Lars39]

64. I, um, er, who is he? Is he somebody I should be ashamed not to know?

I googled and could only get Galt House reservations. :shrug:

[ArCynic]

79. .

[SkipNewarkDE]

65. Why the attack, what did I do?

Hi there. I was actually kind of busy, but it wasn't the kind of stuff I did in third grade. Were you to have done this in third grade, I would take my hat off to you, as you would be considered genius at that point.

What's up, what can I do for you?

[Lars39]

68. I always ask that when someone starts a thread & goes *poof*

I asked at post #49.

[SkipNewarkDE]

93. Had to go to bed, hahaha

I disappeared because I had to go to bed, and the horses need working early the next day. I was pleasantly surprised to see that some nice links to an AP story describing the situation were found.

Here's one:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=17348

[put out]

74. Where and when did this occur. Many have asked.

Many are interested. Where and when did this occur. What you can do, is let folks know where and when. Your silence is deafening.

[populistmom]

58. We do NOT live in a theocracy

This is my line. I will always say it on these types of posts. While 80% of the US is Christian, some practicing, some less so, but in our Constitution, there is nothing about saying one has to succumb to any particular type of belief system to have full rights. Tax paying people who are Jewish, Islamic, Shinto, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever they to choose to believe or not to believe have a right not have have secular (especially government) workplaces be inundated with religious symbolisms and messages. They have a right not to have their children be forced to pray to a God not of their choosing. People like Hannity need to go back and read the Constitution.
For the record, I'm a practicing Christian.

[Rattlesnake]

63. A war on Christianity?

I don't think so.

My only complaint about the religion thing in public is that if one religion gets to display its religious items, any other religion should be able to display its items as well.

[Selwynn]

69. ...

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[americanconfusion]

70. hmm haha i agree maybe a war on christianity, but maybe for good

Dont get me wrong i am part of the christian religion passivly so i think that some of the points made in the bible are good but i would have to say that it seems that everyone that is at my church is so far right its not even funny. I feel left out a lot but thats not the point. The point is Christianity is by far not a minority in the US therefore most of the republican leaders use christianity as a ladder to boost their campaigns by leading their followers on by saying that if you vote for them America will turn back to what it used to be. Where almost everyone woke up Christmas morning to a christmas tree and presents. You know, a good christian society. Unfortunatly to those that want America to turn back to this. Its just not going to happen. There are so many religions inside the U.S that Christmas really has no part in the majority of most Americans lives. So what, whats the big deal. Merry Christmas-Happy Holidays. Let the person who gets the card determin what he/she wants it to signify.

[scottcsmith]

71. Some war

Yes, aside from the fact that the most powerful man in the world (George W. Bush) is Christian; that the most powerful man in broadcasting (Rupert Murdoch) is Christian; that many members of Congress are Christian; and that many CEOs are Christian; there really is a war against Christianity.

So the people that hold the majority of power and wealth are Christian, and they're being persecuted?

Okay...

[FDRrocks]

75. Well I guess...

Some Christians just need to convince themselves they are persecuted, despite reality. Maybe it helps them keep the zealousness that they have.

Whatever, get bent, this isn't a Christian country anyways. You don't see anyone trying to erect a statue of Buddha or Satan in public buildings.

Bunch of blind assholes.

[jsw_81]

77. Nobody is waging war on Christianity in this country

The truth is that Christianity dominates this country. Every president and vice president has been Christian, virtually every governor, senator and congressman has been Christian etc.

The people who are whining about the supposed "war" on Christianity are the extreme fundamentalists who hate diversity, hate the separation of church and state, and want to cram their cruel, violent (and in my view, absurd) beliefs down the throats of everyone, even those who are NOT at all interested in converting. Note that I'm not slamming liberal Christians, only the extreme fundies.

[rman]

81. did he provide sources, evidence? n/t

-

[Bridget Burke]

82. It's Astroturf.....

Letters to the editor & guest editorials have been recycling the same arguments about the "War on Christianity"--especially during the holiday season. They ought to encourage each of their writers to invest in a thesaurus so the wording isn't so obviously identical.

I work in a big institution; each department was issued an artificial Christmas tree & encouraged to decorate their area. Decorations ranged from fairly traditional to pop-culture themes. Menorahs were seen in public areas & a large, tasteful sign commemerated Eid. Everybody who got time off was glad to take it.

The Puritans who helped found this country forbade celebrating Christmas with anything more enjoyable than an extra-long sermon. They thought the holiday was a Popish display with Pagan roots. Of course, they were right. So, as a free-range Pagan with Popish roots, I'm glad to celebrate this time of year.

[rasputin1952]

83. There is much that is misunderstood about Christianity...

Unfortunately, those that express dismay with Christianity, don't understand what Jesus taught; the same goes for the "Christians" that insist there is a war against them.

Both sides of the fence express severe ignorance on the values that Jesus spoke of. Neither should get too hot under the collar, and should attempt to rationally express their views, but I find that highly unlikely in the near future.

There is hostility from "C'sINO". These individuals have a distorted view of what Christianity is all about, and the notion of tolerance is not in any of their 'teachings'. This is sad, because without tolerance, (& charity, love & forgiveness), Christianity is meaningless.

As for those that seem obsessed with a 'secular' nation; It would bode them well to understand that they also harbor the same prejudices and distrust that the C'sINO hold. This can be seen in the ideology that virtually every other 'faith-based' situation can be tolerated, except Christianity.

Ignorance, and the fear it breeds, feeds hatred of things unknown. Without people that are willing to search for what they believe to be the truth, regardless of what they think that truth may be, we would are stuck in an endless cycle of hate and fear. We must break this cycle with understanding and tolerance, there are no other options.

Tolerate those with views that oppose yours, and expect toleration from them.

O8)

[randr]

86. What you have is a minority of Christians

giving all Christians a bad name. Would they be the anti-christians?

[eleny]

88. The war is against their shovng their religion down our throats...

not against the religion itself.

[LeahMira]

89. There was ONE...

He then went on to say that there was multiple incidents in which Christmas displays weren't permitted at certain schools, but a menorah and kwanzaa display were permitted to remain.


I thought I posted on this before, but apparently not. If it shows up later on, apologies.

Anyhow, Skip, there was an incident in a school near Philadelphia. The school had a display of holiday symbols, including a Hanukkah menorah, a bowl of fruit for Kwanzaa, and a nativity scene for Christmas. The principal of the school removed the nativity scene, but left a little decorated tree in place. The parents had fits and the upshot was that the district required the principal to put the nativity scene back in place. It was reported on NBC-10... surprised you didn't see anything about it.

Anyhow, that's what your friend might have heard about, and it is ONE incident, not multiple incidents.

Personally, I have no particular problem with displays of SYMBOLS of the season. The menorah is a symbol. The bowl of fruit is a symbol. The tree, the pointsettias, the wreaths and so on are symbols. I do object to the nativity scene because it depicts the Christian holy people, one of which some of them claim is their deity. Far as I know, no other religious group insists on displays of their deity on public property and I don't see why Christians need to display theirs on public property. I think it's tantamount to forcing the image of their deity in my face and I find it really, really offensive.


P.S. on Edit: I think that had the nativity scene never been displayed, there would probably have been no objections from the parents in the school. I think the fact that it was there and then was removed is what got them in a sweat. I certainly hope that in the future the nativity scene is not used in the first place. Since devout Christians have traditional stories about the tree, the pointsettia, the wreath, the lights, etc. that reference their religious beliefs (i.e. Jesus as the light of the world, etc.), those SYMBOLS should suffice as SYMBOLS of the season just as a menorah is the SYMBOL of my holiday.

[mrgorth]

91. It usually involves

the removal of a Christmas decoration because there are numerically more of those than the others. THus, they have to even it out. It CAN be an issue though. People all around need to chill. It's practically a secular holiday anyhow.

[oldcoot]

96. Some possible arguments

How much power does your friend think that private businesses should have over their employees? Conservatives often favor giving business owners the freedom to run businesses as they see fit even at the expense of their employees. For example, conservatives have vilified unions and supported anti-worker legislation in the various states. I also have yet to witness any outrage from conservatives over drug testing, which allows companies some control over their employees' private lives. Considering that private companies regularly intrude on their employees' private lives with drug tests, should we really be shocked if they do not allow their employees to put up a Christmas tree on company property? Since many conservatives have supported the war against workers' rights, they should not be surprised if a few Christian workers get stung in the process.

As for the public schools, religious discrimination is nothing new. For every case of discrimination against Christians, you can probably find many more cases of discrimination against non-Christians. You may want to check out the ACLU web site for specific cases (http://www.aclu.org or http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLibertylist.cfm?c=139 ).

If you want to present additional evidence that there is no war against Christianity to your friend, you should check out this story http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/08/MNGOI452ET8.DTL about religion at the Grand Canyon. At Grand Canyon National Park, park officials allow the display of several Christian plaques and the bookstore is currently selling a creationist interpretation about the origins of the Grand Canyon. Ask him when other religions will be allowed to post their plaques in the Grand Canyon.

[fedsron2us]

100. Christians have often been hostile to Christmas

During the English Commonwealth in the mid 17th Century it was banned by the Puritans. Although they probably do not realise it I suspect that some of the more politically correct members of society, who are hostile to the idea of Christmas, are the secular inheritors of this intellectual tradition. Of course the same can be said of those bosses (Mr Scrooge) that can not bear the idea of their staff having a day off.

At heart the festival celebrates the turning of the length of the day at the Winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. The Christian Church could never remove the importance of this event from the lives of the pre industrial peoples of Europe so they sensibly adapted it and incorporated it in their calendar. Despite the fact that we have insulated ourselves ever further from nature and have tried to bury the festival under an avalanche of commercial dross it still retains a great deal of residual power.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/christmas.htm