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JailForBush Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 05:57 PM
Original message
What Future Historians Will Say About America
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 06:13 PM by JailForBush
The class has spent the last few days studying the rise and fall of Nazi Germany. They're shocked and disgusted by the Nazi's crimes. "How could people do such things?" they wonder.

Their teacher explains that the Germans were punished quite harshly by a treaty that ended World War I. Their humiliation and economic woes pushed them over the edge; they were ready a demagogue.

"Certainly, that doesn't excuse their crimes, but it helps us to understand them."

A student asks, "So what about Americans?" They practiced genoicde against Native Americans and lynched African Americans. They stole lands from Mexico, Spain and the Hawaiians. And that was all during the 19th century.

"During the 20th century, the United States waged proxy wars against nations in Latin America, Eurasia and the Middle East, as they replaced European colonialism with their own brand of imperialism.

"At the beginning of the 21st century, Americans went off the deep end, invading Afghanistan and Iraq, threatening other nations for simply not supporting their crimes, and starting a new global arms race.

"After George W. Bush was re-elected in 2004, the U.S. conquered Syria and Iran. When Russia, Pakistan, India, China and other nations offered some support to Iran, the U.S. lashed out blindly, killing millions of people. At the same time, the federal government clamped down, persecuting millions of its own citizens with a ruthlessness that was compared to Stalin's mass murders. And all of this transpired during the greatest environmental catastrophe in recorded history."

"So what motivated Americans? Had they been deeply humiliated in war? Were they afflicted with grinding poverty? Were they threatened by a military takeover?"

THE PROFESSOR:

"None of the above. In fact, the United States ranked as the planet's biggest warmonger from the late 19th century through the first quarter of the 21st century. The U.S. government was humiliated after losing a war in Vietnam, but they more than made up for it by conquering several other nations, unleashing technological blitzkriegs that made the Nazis look like amateurs.

"The U.S. was never threatened militarily until George W. Bush's second term in office, when a coalition of nations united to protect themselves from America.

"Millions of Americans did live in poverty - a testimonial to their hypocrisy and corporate corruption. But the majority lived in relative grandeur compared to peoples in most other nations. Americans who were born between about 1950 and 2000 were the most pampered generation in world history.

"So why did they throw it all away and follow a madman into the abyss? This question has stymied historians for centuries. Most have no answer other than 'apathy and stupidity.' It almost seems as if Americans had a death wish; their minds were so rotted from affluence, technological entertainment and brainwashing, they either didn't care what their government did or they actually rallied behind their worst enemy; history tells us that millions of Americans adored George W. Bush.

"Some historians compare Americans to the dodo, a flightless bird that was quickly exterminated by sailors. The closest analogy among other nations is probably the Romans, another great empire whose power and excesses were finally ended by relatively primitive tribes that exploited its internal moral decay.

"But Americans had every opportunity to study their plight, thanks to electronic media. They had a democracy. They were largely protected from their enemies by two oceans and a military arsenal capable of destroying the entire planet. Yet they destroyed themselves virtually overnight.

"I subscribe to the school of thought that uses an ancient vulgarity to describe Americans; they were the biggest assholes in world history."
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. History is written by the victor...
I don't see that as a version of mainstream history in the future.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. There Will Be Another Howard Zinn to Write History
from the viewpoint of the oppressed.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. I doubt we will be the victor on the path we have chosen.
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 09:00 PM by Sterling
History will be about as kind to us as the were to the fall of the roman empire.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Look for a model of what you say
at 1800 and the Seocond American Revolution.

That generaiton also was apathetic, and after the abuses by Adamms not only was Adamns voted out... but the country (those who could vote mind you) had a wide spread awakening...

I feel that we are beyond the tipping point (the media will not tell you this) but watch C-SPAN call in shows... we are at the tip of the backlash, but over the tipping point
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who monged WWI and WWII?
It wasn't the US. Any valid points about USA warmongering tend to disappear behind such over-the-top rhetoric.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I agree
It astounds me how much America bashing actually goes on here. It's not certain policies, it's America! Well, this is MY country, too. I'm not one of these "How can I get outa here?" DUers. I only hope that history can write that there was much injustice, but that there was much good too. Message boards full of people discussing and organizing to fight those injustices. Sometimes they were successful - sometimes they were not.
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stopthegop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. how convenient...
Most have no answer other than 'apathy and stupidity.'
those who disagree with you politically are apathetic and/or stupid...

makes you feel better though, huh?...if you are an American, are you one of the assholes?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Not many disagree with me ---
Not many care enough to have a discussion. Hence, "apethetic."
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wow I was going to reply with "apathy and stupidity" but you said it....
You're gonna get a lot of flames for this - but I agree with you.
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JailForBush Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. Responses
carolinayellowdog asked, "Who monged WWI and WWII?"

Obviously, the U.S. didn't START either of the world wars. But merely getting involved in World War I was a classic example of stupidity. Though World War II ranks as one of our few "good wars," Team USA also committed some of the biggest war crimes and ended the war on an atomic note - something future historians won't be likely to miss.


economic justice wrote, "It astounds me how much America bashing actually goes on here. It's not certain policies, it's America!"

Actually, my post focuses on America's WAR POLICY.

"Well, this is MY country, too. I'm not one of these "How can I get outa here?" DUers. I only hope that history can write that there was much injustice, but that there was much good too. Message boards full of people discussing and organizing to fight those injustices. Sometimes they were successful - sometimes they were not."

I just hope historians will make an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff - many online activists are actually corporate operatives.

I also hope future historians don't mention public education - the mega-scandal that drags down conservatives and liberals alike.


stopthegop wrote, "how convenient...

"Most have no answer other than 'apathy and stupidity.'
those who disagree with you politically are apathetic and/or stupid..."

In fact, most of them are. But if YOU have an answer other than 'apathy and stupidity,' don't be shy - let's hear it!

"If you are an American, are you one of the assholes?"

Yes, I am a U.S. citizen. No, I am not one of the assholes. How about you?
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stopthegop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. oh...in fact most of them are...
and since you're not one of the assholes you can determine that...I was wrong to think you arrogant...don't know what come over me...

have an intelligent,caring,non-proctological weekend
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. This
"I subscribe to the school of thought that uses an ancient vulgarity to describe Americans; they were the biggest assholes in world history."


To me, that's pretty all encompassing.....
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yeah. Don't quit your day job....
None of the above. In fact, the United States ranked as the planet's biggest warmonger from the late 19th century through the first quarter of the 21st century.

History isn't your strong suit, I see.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Very convincing. Great for discussion! Best response all year!
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 06:58 PM by Selwynn
You know, other people read the threads too. Instead of just making a stupid quip back at the orginal poster, would you care to elaborate for others?

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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Ah, the delicious irony
Instead of just making a stupid quip back at the orginal poster, would you care to elaborate for others?

The comment I was referring to was contrived in what I consider to be a rhetorically and historically ignorant manner.

None of the above. In fact, the United States ranked as the planet's biggest warmonger from the late 19th century through the first quarter of the 21st century.


The term 'warmonger' is rather subjective, as it depends on who's defining war or determining if any given event was actually a war.

This prevents the creation of any meaningful 'rankings' between warmongers because it is impossible to quantify the results.


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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Ok, so basically you've still contributed nothing in the way of an actual.
...argument.

I was hoping since you were so quick to slam his "grasp" on history, that you might have something substantial to say. Also, because I usually respect what you write.

But I guess that was too much to hope for this time.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I don't really have to
I was hoping since you were so quick to slam his "grasp" on history, that you might have something substantial to say. Also, because I usually respect what you write.

While I'm glad you usually like my responses, in this case I consider the material that I was responding to to be so tranparently slanted with no regard to accuracy or other mitigating factors that could lead to a different interpretation as to be worth substantial comments.

IOW, what is wrong with it is obvious enough not to merit further comment.
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JailForBush Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. More Responses
Wow, rather than refute my points, you confirm them. Sheez, and I thought this was a LIBERAL chatboard!

stopthegop "and since you're not one of the assholes you can determine that...I was wrong to think you arrogant...don't know what come over me...

"have an intelligent,caring,non-proctological weekend"

Wow, did something I wrote hit home?


ME: "None of the above. In fact, the United States ranked as the planet's biggest warmonger from the late 19th century through the first quarter of the 21st century."

Character Assassin: "History isn't your strong suit, I see."

You apparently disagree with my statement about the U.S. as the biggest warmonger from the late 19th century to the present.

Cool. Would you care to tell us which nation more justly deserves that title?

Germany would certainly rank high on the list, but they've been pretty peaceable since World War II. The United Kingdom and France fought lots of colonial wars (in addition to the world wars), but have they engaged in proxy wars to the same extent as the U.S.?

The Soviet Union/Russia is another contender. But it wasn't as directly involved in Vietnam as the U.S. was, and it has been relatively calm since the Cold War ended.

Should I revise my statement like this?:

"The United States was the biggest warmonger at the end of the 19th century, the third biggest warmonger during the 20th century, and once again the biggest warmonger at the beginning of the 21st century."

Don't be shy; share your expertise with us!
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. See my post above.
It's a matter of terms and their appropriate application.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. It IS a liberal board
But don't confuse liberalism with what you wrote. Your piece was far-left mumbo jumbo of the sort that gets Democrats beat in election after election.
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JailForBush Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Baloney
DEMOCRATS get Democrats beat in election after election.

Never apologize for the truth.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Ah yes
The old myth that the independent center does not exist and if the liberal left would just stick to their guns they would win. Clueless.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Other than lumping in all 20th century US wars it was spot on.
And even that can be a matter of opinion.
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Virgil Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Applause
Pretend there are clapping hands in appreciation of a point well made.
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msternot Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. Its hard to say since...
America is in its infancy. Are you talking about how they will reflect on the first 200 or 300 years of America...?

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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Simple correction
"I subscribe to the school of thought that uses an ancient vulgarity to describe corporate America; they were the biggest assholes in world history."
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