Feasibility Of Moving To Another Country

[phrenzy]

This is something I've bounced around in my head for a while but after my first trip to Europe (Paris, Brussels, London and Ireland) I really want to sit down and examine how possible it is now.

How feasible is it to actually move to and work in another country. Specifically, Germany, Europe, Japan or Canada?

Everyone I've talked to has left me with the impression that it is not so simple to just 'decide' to go to these countries. If you expect to get a job, you will need to get sponsored by a company and get a work visa. Neither of which are easy to do. Especially since the economies in many of these countries aren't the best in the first place.

I work in the video games industry and England / Japan has many companies that I could probably find opportunities at. I also have many years experience with electronic music production and Germany has lots of music software developers.

Is there any program where you can be a 'guest worker' or anything like that in any of these countries?

Any DUers have experience with such a thing?

Thanks!

[Sir_Shrek]

1. I don't think it's all that hard...

One of my good friends does that now...but I should add that she carries duel citizenship, so that may be a factor benefitting her.

Either way, I think the standard is that you will have to get a work visa no matter where you go.

[Frederic Bastiat]

2. You're looking at least 18 months minimum to Canada

And that's if you're lucky. I got my @ss outta there shortly after the Bushies moved in. Good luck.

[phrenzy]

4. 18 Months?

Sorry, what do you mean 18 months? Do you mean 18 months of waiting before you can legally work? Not sure I understand.

Thanks

[Frederic Bastiat]

5. Yup

It takes about that long to imnmigrate to Canada. Google it and see. You could get a NAFTA work visa but its a long shot and comes with a lot of restrictions.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

3. Work Visa? In a foreign country?

The illegals out there in California don't need one, so why should an expatriated American? Just go to Mexico and be a burden on their economy (heh heh).

Seriously though. I ain't goin' no where...

[el_gato]

14. for your information

the "illegals" provide a massive pool of cheap labor that the corporte pigs love, so from the standpoint of an elitist CEO these "illegals" are a boon to our economy.

They work hard and get very little in return.
It's all about cheap labor. That's why people are fools
if they support scams like NAFTA and CAFTA.

[jayfish]

26. Cheap Labor Conservatism & Inflation.

I have come to the conclusion that cheap labor conservatism has, for years, held inflation in check artificially. By replacing people who work for, say, $8 to $12 per hour with people who have no choice but to work for $5.25 (or less) per hour companies are able to keep prices artificially low. When the workers who used to make 8$ to $10 re-enter the work force they are often forced to do so at a lower rate of pay, thereby, keeping the prices of goods artificially low again. I just don’t see how we can pull out of this fantasy economic cycle without all of us suffering . Anyone remember the movie “Freejack”? I know it sucked, but unless something changes, I see us moving towards the same economics that “Freejack” portrayed. It was an economy of the ultra poor and the ultra rich with Gestapo tactics holding the whole mess together.

Jay

[cryofan]

28. Our Cheap Labor - Soylent Green Future is nearly upon us

"Cheap Immigrant Labor Conservatism Hurts PEEEE-PUUULLLLL!"


The only problem is that there are as many "Cheap Labor Liberals" as there are "Cheap Labor Conservatives"!

[Kellanved]

6. You need a job first - then it's simple

You need a job offer first - your company will then apply the pressure needed for a permit/German green card (nothing like the American Green Card, it's a work permit for IT-pros with a streamlined application).
If you don't have an offer, then it's harder. It's still not nearly impossible for an US citizen (USA and Japanese citizens have a bonus), especially if you have a college degree and speak the local language.
The last straw: Grandfather/Grandmother with European citizenship.

Last time I checked the German Game Developers were hiring. However there are few and even fewer develop for the international market - you might want to check their pages for offers.


In any case: don't expect Europe to be much different from the US; the RWers are basically the same and if you're dreaming about six weeks vaccations etc. : forget it. There are no unions in IT and thus hardly any vaccations at all. Of course if you like wine, beer and French cheese the place has it's advantages.

[Jane Roe]

18. I just made the exodus to Canada last month

it was a matter of having a job offer and the correct professional degree.

If I hadn't had a professional degree from the specified list for Canada (NAFTA, really), then things would have been difficult.

If you don't want to flee to a Third World country, then you may need to go back to school.

[RainDog]

20. I'm an American who lived in Europe for a bit

...and I was married to a European (tho we lived in America for the most part) and traveled to visit inlaws over seventeen years, and believe me, Europe is very different than America.

In some ways America has certain things to recommend it, or did- we tend (at least where I've lived) to be more outwardly friendly-- but with the current atmosphere--I don't know. (tho where I live, with students from around the world, it's still a friendly place, at least among educated people.)

but America is MUCH MUCH less informed than most citizens in the European countries I've known.

America is MUCH MUCH more naive about its country and much more willing to swallow every bit of propaganda they're fed.

Americans who are not rich do not see that they vote against their self-interest by voting for people like Bush...they just simply do not understand the basics of power politics because they think that the rich will trickle down some pennies for them.

Quality of life issues are also different here than in the European places I've been to.

Of course, you now have Macro stores, etc. in Europe, but it's nothing there like the shopping mall "culture" here.

people here are so isolated, so unware because they are not even basically aware of another language (or any other world view).

the day-to-day of life...going to the pastry shop each morning, consuming less in smaller amounts-- two litre bottles are SO HUGE compared to one litre bottles once you get accustomed to the other.

America is so much larger that families are really dislocated, often. In Belgium you could drive across the country in a day, or take a day trip to the beach in The Netherlands, or go to Aachen, or Brittany in France...

here, it's much more expensive to travel, trains don't even serve many places in any feasible way for travel, and there is no decent public transport once you go to most cities, beyond the biggest ones.

on the other hand, I think it's hard for most Americans to contemplate not living the way they have lived for years.

I missed many things when I was there, but when I was back here, I missed many things there.

nothing is perfect, obviously, and really the issue is what sort of experiences you want to have.

[Kellanved]

21. yes

Those points all are true - and I love them. Thanks for the list. :hi:

But not everything will continue to be so:

- in almost all EU nations the public financed TV with it's mandatory fees is being attacked. Especially interesting, as the conservatives opened the market for private networks because the public TV was "too liberal".
-example Berlin: Europe's largest WalMart and a €300 million shopping mall is under construction on the Alexanderplatz.
- free college is unlikely to survive the next conservative government. (even the current is hard-pressed to keep it going)
- American policy is considered correct and generally assumed benevolent when implemented in Europe. This includes policies not even working in the US (example Wisconsin Works).
-two liter bottles are getting widely available for milk, cola, etc.
...

[RainDog]

24. what do make of this interview?

and btw, yes, there are many, many things I love about Europe. My family came to the "new world" from France to Canada and on to the US, and much of the work I did in college was about the French Revolution and the literary/rhetorical response to the same in England (and some in America.)

I am very fortunate that I've been able to see David's Death of Marat, the works of so many, Dirk Bouts, Breugel...I love the history that lives all around the people of Europe in their architecture...it's too sad that Berlusconi has Italy in his claws, because Rome is my favorite place I've ever visited, and the place where I conceived my firstborn! :)

anyway, the interview isn't available from its source via a link that I could find..maybe you have access to the orignal.

http://www.rwevans.co.uk/~r/rwevans/wevansnet04/item0042A.htm

(the link above is to a blog which posts the interview)

Extract from Prospect, June 2003

Interview with Emmanuel Todd, by Michael Monninger

Many French intellectuals see their country as leading the challenge to US power.  Few are as outspoken as Emmanuel Todd, the author of "Apres l'Empire", a best-seller prophesying the decline of America.

* Michael Monninger writes from Paris for "Die Zeit", in which a longer view of this article first appeared.

Emmanuel Todd   Actually, I like the US a great deal.  Until recently, it was the most important factor in maintaining international order.  But now it is a factor for instability.  The industrial core of the US has been hollowed out.  The American trade deficit amounts to $435bn a year - the country needs £1.5bn a day in foreign capital.  The US is no longer self-sufficient.  Europe, with its strength in exports, is.

Monninger  But the US is the undisputed global power...

Emmanuel Todd   The US was the undisputed victor of the 20th century Now it has difficulty in recognising its own dependence.  Hitherto, the Europeans envied the US its standard of living and technological power.  This generated a certain modesty.
Nowadays, the US leads only in military terms.  In most spheres the Europeans have overtaken it.

Emmanuel Todd   Europe still does not have a common foreign policy.  Until now it has always been in America's retinue.   Now the Germans have reclaimed their foreign policy, and one cannot overestimate the strategic and symbolic dimensions of this.  In conjunction with France, there is a core of political renewal independent of the US, and with mass popular support.  Spain, Britain, Italy and the east Europeans represent the "old" Europe, since they have not yet achieved autonomy.

Monninger  What about the war on terror?

Emmanuel Todd  The omnipresence of terrorism is a powerful myth, thanks to which the US has assumed the right to crusade around the world, whether in the Philippines. the Yemen or Iraq.  The US wants to keep the world on tenterhooks by means of this permanent sense of war.  But military methods don't help, in the fight against terrorism.  Only police and secret service work can help.  The terrorist threat could have been minimised in this way since 9/11, but the collective psychosis of the Americans did not allow that.

[Kellanved]

32. I don't think that's true

Or rather it doesn't need to be that way. There is no real consensus if Europe is a nation or a free-trade zone; Germany would be very happy to return to normal US-relations again. It would probably even accept the blame for the situation.
On the other hand there is the possibility of the creation of a Franco-German core Union with very real geopolitical motives. Should Spain and the UK (not to mention the candidiates) continue the veto policy, then Europe might be headed that way. It might even be a good thing; I'm, not really sure at the moment.


Cental European politics might get very interesting over the next few years; who would have expected an alliance between conservative Chirac and Social Democrat Schröder? Not long ago Chirac was holding speeches condemning German influence in Europe in general and Schröder in special. And Schröder was holding parties for Liberal world leaders - Clinton attended.

Bottom line: let's see what happens and hope/work for the best.

[dolo amber]

25. Hey Kellanved, I have a question

I have also been looking into this possibility. My grandmother was born in Hungary, and I was wondering if you knew where there might be a good resource for me to look into for finding out if the grandmother thing applies ONLY to Hungary or the EU in general. Someone suggested to me that might be how it's done now, but I can't seem to find any info on it, and I've Googled myself silly looking.

Thanks! :hi:

[Kellanved]

30. Citizenship is a national affair

, not regulated by the EU. All citizens of a member nation are automatically member citizens and can live and work in any EU country.
Ayways, Hungary won't be a full EU member for a few years to come.


Some nations have ius solis - anybody born in the country is/can become a citizen (France is the prime example for that policy). AFAIR that may include US citizens living in one of the originally French states (I remember discussing - in jest - the possibility of Clinton running for President in France).

Others have ius sanguinis (Austria) - if one parent is a citizen, then so is the child. This is the base for the Grandmother/Grandfather argumentation.

Some (Germany as an example, ius solis was added recently) have a combination of both rules - usually with some additional regulations (i.e. parents must be legal aliens).

The one way to find out for sure is asking the Embassy for help. The only country where I know the Grandfather/Grandmother thing to be true is Germany; Austria used to count only the male line as being eligible for citizenship (this has been changed, but I think the change is only for people born after 1983).

[no name no slogan]

7. Difficult, but not impossable

If you are a student or a new ex-student, there is a working-visa program that allows you to spend up to six months working abroad in several European countries. I did this in 1991 after I got out of college, and lived in the UK for almost seven months. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

If you have certain "in-demand" skills, your chances of qualifying to emigrate are much higher. For example, healthcare, technology, etc. have good chances to get into Canada, as there's a shortage. Visit this site for an overview of what you need to emigrate to Canada.

Of course, you could always go abroad on a tourist visa and "overstay". There's always some sort of gray market for jobs in most countries. You could probably get something working for cash-only most anywhere, but you'd have few (if any) legal rights.

[BeHereNow]

8. Here you go:

I study this area on a daily basis and have been
posting this link all over DU today, since the topic
seems to be on everyone's mind lately-
http://www.escapeartist.com
Web site dedicated entirely to Americans considering
relocating, changing or maintaining dual citizenship.
Happy hunting-
BHN

[shanti]

15. belize!

an island for sale, anyone???

[Kellanved]

16. one more page

http://www.expatica.com (information about the central European countries + Spain)
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=31&story_id=1873 (describes the ordeal to get a work permit /being recognized as a freelance)
Just ignore their Forum; it's permanently freeped.

[phrenzy]

9. Thanks

Great info so far. Thanks. For all the times I see "I'm leaving the U.S." posted on DU - I wonder how many people actually know how difficult it is to make a new life overseas.

The point about RWers being the same anywhere is well taken. I don't think that there is some paradise that is without right wing types. But there's just something - it's hard to explain - in the U.S. that is just uncomfortable for me now. I feel like I'm in a land of brainwashed cult followers.

I really believe that in Europe people (by necessity) have a broader world view and thus the general "social climate" is one that is more comfortable to me.

Every country has its ignorant people and it's extreme people, but on balance, I think the population in the U.K., Germany or France are more in line with my values than the majority of the population of the U.S.

[info being]

10. Right, maybe we should all just move to Berkely or Seattle or something

[drdigi420]

11. i can explain it

it's stupidity

lets face it, america has become the land of stupidity and cheesiness, it's ingrained in our culture, from the movies and music that get popular, to the leaders we 'select', from the tv shows that get the best ratings, to the fact that anne coulter and rush limbaugh garner such large audiences

this country has gotten stupid, and it just continues to get worse

when kobe, michael, and lacy replace bush's lies on the news, when the drug war is allowed to continue after 35 years of counterproductive failure, when religion is not exposed as the pile of lies that it is, this country has been lost to the fanatical non-thinkers

[phrenzy]

13. Exactly

That's exactly my feeling. It's just kind of like being surrounded by zombies all the time. In most people - there is just nothing behind their eyes. I am by no means immune from enjoying some cheesey American things. But, I just can't take the general attitude of the people these days.

I just got back from 2 weeks in Europe. Not nearly long enough to make a sound judgment about whether I should move there or not - but long enough to know that I could.

Life is too short for me to spend time in a cultural wasteland. Wherever that may be. Even here in the SF Bay area I feel it. I can't imagine how bad it gets in the midwest of the U.S.

[Damndifino]

22. Come to Europe

I've often wished we could bring all the intelligent Americans here and send all our morons over there. Then, when the US collapses and its retard population dies out, you can all go and claim it back.

[spindoctor]

12. Flush your passport on the plane and claim political assylum

That is, as I understand it, the way illegal immigrants do it in Europe.

The European IT job market is tight from what I understand from my former collegues, but you can have my old spot if you care for Holland ;)

The rules for immigration vary by country and I don't believe they have European law in effect yet on the subject. France and Spain are probably your best bets, as they are the least crowded.

I know that in Holland, like in the US, you need to have a "sponsor", somebody who vows to take care of you rather than to have you apply for social services (within the first 10 years or so).

I'm sure there is plenty of information available on the various country sites.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Job opportunities are limited with the European Union....

the book I have on moving to Ireland, states that jobs go first to Irish, than those from the EU, and if there are no candidates from those goups, you get your shot. If I make the move in 2005 (as the result of Bush being given 4 more years), I will go as an American retiree!!

[yolatengo]

19. move to India!

Say you have some money saved, e.g. $200000 (maybe after selling your
house/dumping your 401(k), inheritance, whatever), why can't you move
to Bangalore and work there?

Sure, your base pay will suck, but the cost of living is low and your
IT pay will be well above the norm (like it probably is here). BUT, you'll
ALSO be earning interest (in an offshore bank, natch) that ADDS to your
take home pay! It'd be like being a programmer here earning $80k but
with an additional $20k a year in investment income coming in.

They speak english in India, the food's great, and you could get used
to Bollywood after a year away from the tripe Hollywood puts out...

Who sez you gotta go to Europe? Just sell everything, move to India,
take back your old job that got outsourced there to begin with, but
be ahead of the pack with your investments. Hell, one could earn a
couple hundred a month on a decent 401(k) balance and live pretty
well with that 'bonus' on their bad pay...

:evilgrin:

Bigby

[theHandpuppet]

23. Your chances for Canadian emigration...

... will improve if you are willing to take your IT skills to the Maritime Provinces. Most folks with your skills head for the large urban areas like Toronto or Montreal, so the more rural provinces go begging for IT workers. Check out the Halifax Herald at http://www.herald.ns.ca/ You'll find links to some agencies that specialize in finding jobs for people with your skills.

Some of these other posters are right. Your chances of emigrating improve if you can first land a job offer.

[cryofan]

27. I have been looking into this for some time

Mainly I wanted to get into a country with tax funded health care and a liberal welfare state. My research indicates that for CITIZENS (not vistors, not guests, not residents), most of the NW European democracies are great! They are able to take off from work for LONG periods of time. I am talking YEARS! Yes, and I have done the research. The best ones are the Scandanavian countries, Holland, Finland, Belgium, Switz.

Also, Canada is not bad. FOr example, the average length on unemployment in Canada for a single able bodied male is 23 months. Now, you may think I am lazy or somthing, but I am not: I have worked 25 years with little time off (including 6 years in the armed forces). I look back and wish I had emigrated to Denmark years ago, when I still could. Living your life in a country is an investment. Best to invest in a country where the citizens control it (such as the aforementioned). In those countries, voter participation and union membership is MUCH higher than in the USA. Time off is also much higher.

As for where you can move to: your parent/grandparents may be helpful. My canadian born mother gets me canadian citizenship immediately. Also her mother was born in Norhern Ireland. So I get Irish citizenship or English residency upon presentation of proof.

Once you are into the EU countries, you can move around in the EU, but the social benefits are generally not as good in the really good countries.

Canada and Australia will let you in if you are fairly young (< 45 for Oz) and have a technical degree.

Also, one other poster suggested India. This is not a bad idea if you are technically educated. The cost of living is low. The problem is that although the cost of living is very low in India as it is in all 3rd world countries and most of Latin America, you cannot get the same low prices as the natives, generally. You can get a longterm business visa fairly easily.

If you have a few thousand saved up, it may be easier to move to Latin America if you speak spanish.

BTW, Paraguay is AFAIK the only country in the world that will take in any immigrants pretty much right away. But it is a desolate shithole.

Some Americans are moving to cheap latin american or 3rd world countries and buying small businesses and enjoying their lives there. For example, you can finance street vendors for what would be a fairly small amount here.

However, there is one big obstacle with moving to a 3rd world country and becoming an independent businessman with a small amount of savings: they do not want you permanently unless you have big bucks to invest. You see, the dirty little secret about all these open trade agreements is that they are set up to help the fat cats and corporations.

And the poor people of the third world could really use your $5000 capital investment, which is hardly enough to start any kind of business here, but would be great for most 3rd world places. But the rich people there don't want to share their peasants with you!

ALso, there is the problem of corruption and language and disease.

[creativelcro]

29. You could also live virtually in anothe country

Just stay at home all the time, order your food via the Web. You can get satellite TV from those countries you like. Work for them remotely. No reason to go there... Besides, when you start learning about their history etc, you'll realize they are as bad as the US and most likely worse... I grew up in Europe and benefitted from certain things. But then I left because there were no opportunities in the fields I was interested in. And for those it's much better in the US. I guess, it depends on what stage in your life you are at...

[Kazak]

31. I just wonder about the future of this country...

if all of the liberal voters just up and pack their bags.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. Japan is fairly easy

if you have a four-year degree in any subject. There are three large English conversation school chains that hire from overseas on one-year minimum contracts. They are not great employers, but they are a means of getting your first work visa, and they often supply housing and airfare.

After that, you can look for another job, since your visa belongs to you, not your employer. Work visas must be renewed every three years (and you must get a different kind of visa for each job category), although you can apply for permanent residence if you have lived there five years, and there are no more restrictions on your work.

You can also marry a Japanese citizen, which gives you an automatic work permit with no restrictions.

Warning: Japan is not for everybody. I happen to love it, but other people hate it. You'll like it more if you speak the language or at least devote a lot of effort to learning it after you arrive. You have to be flexible and mature and able to handle stress and ambiguity. But if you do end up loving it, it's like an addiction.

[phrenzy]

35. Hmmm

Believe it or not I am still married (but separated) from a Japanese citizen. I didn't realize that it would give me an automatic easy-in to the job market there.

I could handle Japan for sure - but I would really need to become conversational with my Japanese skills first.

But this is an avenue I will investigate.

Thanks!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

37. Running away..

I think lots of the discussion on this thread is about "quality of life" issues in the U.S. vs other areas...and the benefits of traveling and living somewhere else to give you a broader view of life.

what does that have to do with running away?

before Bush ever came to power, I was interested in other countries and the ways of life of other people. that hasn't changed...but America is changing in ways which make it even less desireable as a place to live, thanks to Bush.

So, if America wants people to want to be here and visit here, then maybe America should look at the ways Bush is destroying our long-standing reputation around the world as a place which values individual rights and personal freedom.

[Polemonium]

36. Well it is not simple

But we moved to Australia a year and a half ago. You do need sponsorship, or here at least to apply to become a Ozzie permanent resident. Either way there is lots of red tape, significant moving expenses etc. It took us about a month to get everything sorted out and to move. There are alot of online resources for Americans wanting to live overseas, and usually there are country specific web sites to help as well. If your really interested in a short-term move it's probably best just to find the job first, then look into the country details. We have no regrets.

A site we found helpful:
http://www.newcomersnetwork.com/mel/information/allcategories/expatgroups/usa.php
otherwise a search for ex-pat info should give you heaps of other sites