The One Billion Dollar Question: Who Are the Libyan Rebels?

[Jefferson23]

From Democracy Now August 24, 2011

Libyan rebels have consolidated their grip on the capital of Tripoli by capturing Col. Muammar Gaddafi’s main compound, but the whereabouts of the Libyan leader remain unknown, and he has vowed his forces would resist "the aggression with all strength" until either victory or death. Reporters in Tripoli say heavy gunfire could still be heard nearby the area of the Rixos Hotel, where dozens of international journalists guarded by heavily armed Gaddafi loyalists are unable to leave. The Arab League said on Tuesday it will meet this week to consider giving Libyan rebels the country’s seat at the League, after it was taken away a few months ago from the Gaddafi government. Today Britain’s National Security Council is meeting to discuss unfreezing Libyan assets to financially assist the National Transitional Council. We speak with Gilbert Achcar, a professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. "Who are the rebels? Well, this is actually the $1 billion question," says Achcar. "Even in NATO circles, you find the same questions."

Guest:

Gilbert Achcar, professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. He is author of several books, most recently, The Arabs and the Holocaust: The Arab-Israeli War of Narratives. He has published a long essay, "NATO’s 'Conspiracy' Against the Libyan Revolution," on Jadaliyya.com.

SNIP* Welcome to Democracy Now!, Professor Achcar. Can you talk about what’s happening in Libya today?

GILBERT ACHCAR: Hello, Amy. Good to talk to you.

Well, what is happening now in Libya is what you described. I would say I don’t have more news than you do. But basically, the fight is going on until they can catch Gaddafi and subdue the remaining cities which are pro-Gaddafi or dominated by pro-Gaddafi forces. And as far as we know from the news, they are in intensive negotiations with people in these cities to do it peacefully. And we just heard also this spokesperson speaking of the rebels taking control in Sirte. So this remains to be seen.

AMY GOODMAN: The piece you wrote is called "NATO’s 'Conspiracy' Against the Libyan Revolution." Explain.

GILBERT ACHCAR: Well, "conspiracy," of course, is in quote marks, because I’m quoting in the article people who say that there is a conspiracy. But the key point is not a conspiracy. It’s a very open scheme that has been developing there from the beginning, actually, of NATO’s intervention. Ever since it appeared that it would be a longer perspective kind of intervention, schemes were designed actually to keep the situation, the war, going on, in some sense, not to precipitate its conclusion, while trying to get to some kind of agreement between the regime of Gaddafi and the rebels. And this has been until the very last period.

in full: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/8/24/the_1_billion_dollar_question_who

[daa]

1. That's what I never understood Gaddafi is gone, now what

and get ready for Obama to send your Medicare to Libya.

[riverwalker]

2. they won't need our Medicare

Libya has one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios of any country in the world at 3.9%. Basically no debt. $150 Billion in frozen assets and 143.8 tons of gold in the central bank.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. It will be interesting to see how long it takes that band of "rebels"

to turn the whole thing upside down.

[Demeter]

16. 6 months

[Diclotican]

18. Demeter

Demeter

4 Months. They wil start to fight inside themselfs as fast as Gadaffi is either killed or arrested.. It is even today rumors about groups who want to fight against other groups, becouse they belive that they can get more power if they do. Gadaffi is one of the few things, thas have make all the different grups fighting on the same side.. As fast as the "glue" is over, the inflight, and tribal wars to make power for themselfs, wil start..

Diclotican

[Demeter]

19. It depends on how many Eager Western Salemen Show Up

Are we counting from the "release" of the frozen funds to the rebels?

Those funds may never even make it down to Libya--there's all kinds of pretexts to siphon it off for "expenses" and such.

[Diclotican]

22. Demeter

Demeter

Most of the money who are frozen in European and american and other banks, would more than posible never go down to Libya, to be used to build up the country.. That is something everyone know, and sorry enouh accept as part of the plan.. Billions of money who have been taken out by the earlier government of Libya, are still in the hands of others.. And as you point out, "expences" wil sure manage to get the sum down to a far lower level, than it was orginal..

If all of the money had been spend where it should have been, then Libya could be one of the more prosperius country in the north of Africa.. But I am afraid that tribal troubles wil destroy Libya, good helped by others who wil allways make a buck on others missery..

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

24. NATO and the West may be thinking that the country will break up into

small areas -- some of which can be easily dominated by outsiders. Just a thought with no factual basis.

[Diclotican]

25. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

I seriousy doubt that NATO and the west, want libya to break up into smaller pices.. We know to well what happend when a country break up, and wars between groups start.. And in Libya they have enough weapons to last for many, many,many years to came.. And it could destible the whole area. And for the moment, Europe are in no economic chape to cope with a north africa in a mess.. What Europe need more than anymore at the moment, is a stable north africa, ruled by propper government, who have controll over their borders, and also control inside their borders.. Hopefully Libya would be a democratic country one day, but that day is LONG out in the future as most of the institutions who are needed to have a democractic country, have to be rebuild from scratch.. And it is never easy to build up a democracy, when so many special intrest are in th mix.. In Libya they also have a lot of local tribes, who for many years have ruled their own pockest of areas, more or less autonomous from the government in Tripoli.. All this have to start from scratch now, to unify the country under one flag, one government, and posible also under a leader, who is strong enough to keep all the different factions in order.. Or at least, to make the transistion from dictatorship to a democracy as calm as posible..

Another thing, is that some want for Libya to be like Saudi Arabia, a conservative, islamic state, ruled by the cleric/government politic, and ruled by Sharia and the Koran.. A few have expressed their desire for this, quite public in the international news of late, and they are more than posible not alone it the assesment about THAT..

The best way forward, for NATO and for EU, is to take a long look about what Libya really need.. Do they really need billions of dollars, who might just go in deep pocets and never go to they who need it most?.. Or need Libya he TOOLS to rebuild the country.. A NATO/EU Marshall help for the North Africa.. Where the tools is made aviable, but where money have to be given on strict rules.. US did that after world war two.. Rules had to be followed, and tonns of valiable equipment and ressourses was made aviable for Western Europe, to rebuild all what bombed down and out.. We do have a golden oportunity here, to use our wealth, to the best of others - not just give them moeny and then hope magical enough that a democratic prosperious country arive on the other side.. And to make ourself a lot of "goodwill" with the arabic peopole in the North of Afrika. Who sorry enough, dosen't have to mutch positive to say about westernes..

We do have a posibilty here, to listen to what THEY need, and to provide the tools to give them the posibility to build up a country on their own.. It wil tak a long time to rebuild/build up Libya from what it is today. But it is posible..

Diclotican

[daa]

4. I guess you missed the part where the rebels are going through

Europe with a tin cup.You heard it here first, Obama will be sending them money and cutting our safety net.

[bvar22]

5. Who are "The Rebels"?

They are the ones who will open the door to the Global Oil Corporations, the Global Banks, and the IMF.
Like Iraq, Libya will be turned into a "Free Market NeoLiberal HELL."

That is WHY the USA was so anxious to help out "The Rebels" with our Freedom Bombs.

”Gaddafi is the perfect villain for this Anglo-French-American farce unworthy of French playwright Georges Feydeau. For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[blkmusclmachine]

8. I wouldn't be at all surprised.

:thumbsdown:

[truth2power]

10. Well, well, bvar. You're the first , as far as I know, to link to this issue...

I've been beating the drums around here for the last couple of weeks about the pan-African Bank and the Libyan Sovereign Wealth Fund. It hasn't generated much interest, though.

I guess you also know about how Goldman Sachs lost 98% of Libya's Sovereign Wealth Fund investment, causing the enraged Khaddafi people to threaten them. They left the country accompanied by bodyguards.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/05/31/goldman-sachs-lost-98-of-libyas-1-3b-sovereign-wealth-fund-investment/

More to all this than meets the eye. x(

[bvar22]

14. I've been posting this stuff for months,

but it has been drowned out by,

Go Rebels.
The "Rebels" are always the good guys!
Didn't you see Star Wars, Dude??

The Propaganda blitz for the Libyan War was even more intense than the one for Iraq.
There was ZERO voice for anyone who said,
"Wait a minute.
Lets at least LOOK at this."
Zero...NONE.

I DID find it surprising that so many on this site swallowed it ALL so easily.
Especially so SOON after the exact same Propaganda Blitz for the Iraq Obscenity.

They didn't even change the marketing.
They KNEW America would be STUPID enough to buy it all over again.
I just didn't think DU would be THAT stupid.

"Gaddafi is an EVIL dictator who kills his OWN people!!!"
If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!



...But,...but...but.."Arab Spring".
Libya has NOTHING to do with "Arab Spring".
The USA had NOTHING to do with "Arab Spring."
The USA did not drop Freedom Bombs to help "Arab Spring."

You CAN be sure of ONE thing:
If the USA was dropping Freedom Bombs,
it wasn't to help out the poor "rebels."
It WAS to take the Whole Pie.
...and "they" are going to get it too.

"They" = Global Oil Corporations, Global BANKS, the IMF, and the G-8.

I'm putting together a Time Line for Libya,
and will post it as an OP.

It wasn't so long ago that Gaddafi was being ROMANCED by both the Bush and Obama administrations.
Less than 3 years ago, he was honored by the White House as a visiting Foreign Dignitary,
and was presented to the American people as a Reformed supporter of terror.

I believe that Gaddafi was given the same ultimatum as the one delivered to Afghanistan:
"We will give you a Carpet of Gold, OR a carpet of Bombs.
Your choice."
AND, (I sincerely believe) THAT ultimatum was delivered by Obama himself during Gaddafi's visit to Washington in 2008.

Thanks for the inf on GS and the LIF (Libyan Investment Fund).
THIS was very interesting:

"The LIA, headed by chief investment officer Hatem el-Gheriani and Chairman Mustafa Zarti approached 25 different financial institutions around June 2007, when the LIA was launched with approximately $40 billion in assets. Despite forging its strongest relationships with Goldman Sachs, the LWI also invested with Societe Generale, HSBC, JP Morgan, Carlyle Group, Lehman Brothers, and Och-Ziff Capital Management Group.

Recent information, derived from “interviews with close to a dozen people who were involved in the matter, and on Libyan Investment Authority and Goldman documents,” show that Goldman essentially lost all of Libya’s $1.3 billion investment in option contracts on a basket of currencies and six stocks"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/05/31/goldman-sachs-lost-98-of-libyas-1-3b-sovereign-wealth-fund-investment/

You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[truth2power]

17. It's interesting, isn't it, that they don't even change the marketing. And I agree

that someone told Gaddafi, "Carpet of gold or carpet of bombs." I alluded to that a couple of days ago when I linked to the Goldman Sachs incident and said, "Like this hasn't happened before." One doesn't piss-off Goldman, I guess.

Furthermore, what concerns me about this discussion on DU is that when someone questions the motivation of the "rebels", that person is often accused of holding Gaddafi up as some sort of saint. Which isn't the case at all.

Maybe some attention should be given to the fact that our own leaders were busy kissing Gaddafi's a$$ until very recently. John McCain, for one.

[bhikkhu]

12. Here's a good article from February about the people we set out to help:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022505021.html

[arikara]

6. I'm appalled by war crime in which Nato

bombed the Libyan water supply AND the only factory that makes the replacement parts, effectively creating drought, hardship and worse for 70% of the country for an untold amount of time. You'd think that the so-called "rebels"... there seem to be no insurgents in Libya... should be dismayed by the wanton, cruel destruction of the vital infrastructure of their country but instead they are dancing in the streets reminiscent of the Saddaam statue party in Iraq.

And of course the destruction of the water supply was never reported in corporate media. but now the media celebration is matching that of the destruction of Iraq.

Sickening. And very fishy.

[swilton]

7. But, but, but,,,,

the US and the West are such paragons of virtue - they have democracies that all of these Middle Eastern former dictatorships should emulate - we sill show them the way to freedom through capitalism :sarcasm:

[xchrom]

9. recommend

[bhikkhu]

11. Why not answer the question, instead of acting like its a dark mystery?

...because answering it would mean learning something, and no one reading articles like the OP is much interested in that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368030/Libya-Benghazi-lost-Gaddafis-forces-retaken-rebels.html

is a good primer, on the beginnings in Benghazi. There's no shortage of further information if one is interested - the NTC has been very energetic about trying to reassure both outsiders and Libyans about who they are and what their plans are.

Here is about the draft constitution they have prepared:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/22/1009530/-Libyan-NTC-Floats-Constitutional-Charter

[Jefferson23]

13. I read your link. Why you believe it answers the question the professor

in the OP is uncertain of, but your tabloid has the clear answer is a mystery indeed.

*Gilbert Achcar, professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. He is author of several books, most recently, The Arabs and the Holocaust: The Arab-Israeli War of Narratives. He has published a long essay, "NATO’s 'Conspiracy' Against the Libyan Revolution," on Jadaliyya.com.

"Even in NATO circles, you find the same questions."

[bhikkhu]

15. It doesn't answer them, as it only covers a bit of the beginning

and I don't mean to be unfairly dismissive of what Achcar says, since he is actually fairly informative on some things.

...but the title of the piece invokes mystery about the rebels. and then names not one single tribe, and not one single individual involved. If someone was interested in who they are, there is an abundance of information available about the parties and individuals involved, and the political process is fairly open and well along.

To say "we don't know anything" is to admit ignoring all that is freely available, and so having nothing useful to say - though that isn't Achcar, I know, but some parts of the media.

[joshcryer]

21. It does answer them to an extent, it affirms that they are anti-imperialist...

...and that ultimately NATO was just a useful element in their revolution. Their civil war may have lasted many years.

[joshcryer]

20. Good article, he makes it clear that the rebels control their destiny.

On top of that, his "http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/2401/natos-conspiracy-against-the-libyan-revolution">NATO conspiracy" article has nothing to disagree with. Yes, NATO intervened because of interests of third parties (France, the UK, the US). He does fall short of saying that the rebels reject, wholesale, the idea of contract renegotiation, meaning that every one of Gaddafi's contracts that were in place will remain in place, and that ultimately if there is a renegotiation it'll come decades from now (France, who has the largest oil contract in Libya, won't be able to renegotiate the oil deal until 2033, by then the oil will largely be gone!).

But between this and believing that NATO is now in control of Libya, there is, you know, a very far cry, because how can—I mean, even if you take countries like Iraq or Afghanistan with NATO troops on the ground, and massively in Iraq for a long while, they weren’t even able to control the country. So how do you want NATO or the West to control Libya by remote control, without any troops on the ground? And that’s why some people, like Richard Haass from Council on Foreign Relations, are now saying—you know, claiming—asking Washington to send boots on the ground. But this is something that has been adamantly rejected by the rebellion from day one. They asked for air cover. They asked for air protection. But they were adamant from the start at rejecting any form of intervention of troops on the ground. And they are still very much on this position. They have even made statements just recently that they would not allow NATO to establish any bases in their country. And we can see many signs, like, for instance, refusing to—saying that they would not hand over Gaddafi or his sons to the International Criminal Court, but through—I mean, to have trials in Libya itself. So, this shows the limitation, whatever they claim in Washington or London or Paris, the limitation of their real leverage over the Libyan situation. They had a leverage as long as—and they still have a more limited one—as long as Gaddafi’s forces are there and as long as the war is going on. But as soon as this will vanish, then the leverage that they will have will be extremely diminished.

Fascinating interview, thank you for posting it. Gilbert Achcar was adamantly against intervention, but at least he's credible in his analysis of the rebels. That, I can respect. It's the non-interventionist-rebels-are-islamists types that I can't respect.

(Mods: Democracy Now: Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.)

[Jefferson23]

23. You're very welcome. n/t