Christian orginization says "people of all faiths or no faith are welcome". I beg to differ.

[stopschoolpaddling]

Upwards Basketball and Cheerleading is run by a Christian organization. If you go to their website, it will only emphasize the sporting aspects of the program designed to “bring out the winner in every child.”
What they fail to mention at all is the religious part of the program where your children are required to memorize and recite weekly Bible verses in order to earn their star for the week. The stars are then prominently displayed on the basketball players game T-shirts and cheerleader’s megaphones as some sort of prize for faithfully conforming to the organization’s religious expectations.
On their website, it states that “people of all faiths or no faith” are welcome to volunteer or participate but this simply isn’t true, at least not in the Upwards program we are involved in. Failure to participate in the religious aspect of the program is met with intolerance and a vulgar lack of respect from local Upwards organizers.
My personal conflict with them came about last week when my 7-year-old daughter, a cheerleader, was sitting in a circle with the others. The cheerleading coach then went around the circle and each girl was asked to recite that week’s Bible verse. When they came to my daughter and asked her if she would like to recite the verse, she said no and they went on to the next girl. Later on in the practice when they were giving out stars for participation, I heard the coach tell my daughter she couldn’t have one because she didn’t recite the bible verse. Not being one to act impulsively, I painfully watched as the coach asked her if she would like to try again and my daughter dutifully tried to remember the verse. Not remembering it word for word, it was read to her again so she could give it another try and reluctantly, the coach gave her the star.
After having a week to contemplate my actions, I told my daughter that according to me, her mother, she did not need to say any more verses and I would make sure she got the star. Naively, I thought that if I told them that as a family we did not read the Bible nor did we want to, they could quietly let it pass and let her have the star for participating in the other activities, which she did very well. To say I was in for a shock would be an understatement.
At the beginning of the next practice, I politely asked the coach to grant her the star without saying the bible verse stating that it interfered with our spiritual beliefs. Well, the woman just looked at me like I was insane and told me in no uncertain terms and unmistakable hostile body language, she would say the verse or not get a star. Upon calmly asking if she might not be able to make an exception she referred me to the director of the program in the other room.
I easily found the director in the gym seated at a table and approached him. Once again I stated that I would like my daughter to receive a star without being made to conform to reciting the Bible verse and asked if it was possible that an exception might be made given my personal belief that the Bible has caused more violence and deaths than any other written text in the history of man and for that one reason alone, I’m not inclined to make my children recite anything from it. Once again, I witnessed an immediate aggressive attitude, no verse, no star, no exceptions, and then the words “Lady, you are in the wrong place” spewed out of his mouth.
“Are you saying that if we don’t believe in the Bible that we are not welcome here?” I asked.
“I am busy and I am through talking with you” was his seriously offended reply.
Pissed off myself, I said, “Fine, but don’t be surprised when I plaster your intolerant bigamous attitude all over the Internet” and I walked away.
Fifteen minutes later I noticed that he was sitting at the table all alone and apparently doing nothing, so I once again approached him and asked “Are you through talking with me forever or only when you are busy?” Reluctantly, he replied that he would speak to me further and so I offered him my phone number, which he declined and then offered,“We can give you your money back.”
“ I don’t want my money back. I would just like you to answer a few questions for me so I know exactly where you and I stand” I replied and immediately continued. “Are my children required to participate in the religious part of the program in order to continue being in the program?”
“You are trying to put words in my mouth.”
“No I would just like you to answer the question.”
“What was the question?”
“Are my children required to participate in the religious part of the program in order to continue being in the program?”
“ I can see you just like to argue.”
“ No, I just want an answer to the question.”
“What was the question?”
“Are you saying that unless we participate in the religion part of the program we are not welcome here? Or are the children required to participate in the reciting of Bible verses in order to be in the program?”
“You are trying to put words in my mouth.”
“No, I’m asking you a question.”
Apparently he was having a somewhat vague realization that his prejudice against non-religious participation may not look very good and so refused to comment any further in any direction. His decision that no recitation of Bible verses, no star earned however stood firm. Talk about bribing innocent children into playing a game of religious coercion. Or to put it in a child’s language, do it our way and believe what we believe or you won’t fit in and we’ll make sure of that because you’ll be the only one who won’t get a star and won’t you look like a loser then.
I think their slogan of “where every child is winner” should be updated to include the words “as long as they believe what we believe and do as they are told in accordance with that whether it infringes on their or their families personal beliefs or not.”
I was not in the room when it came time for the reciting of Bible verses so later I asked my daughter if she did it. She said she did and received her star. I told her that it was up to her but she didn’t have to if she didn’t want to and that I would be buying up every single type of star that was a sticker and we could plaster them to her megaphone so every week she would get a dozen stars that were a lot more dazzling than what they were offering. She said she’d like that and then added, “It’s only a stupid Bible verse” and I said “yeah” and then she said “The only reason I said it is because all my friends did.” I said “ I know but if all of your friends jumped off a bridge to their deaths would you do it because all your friends did.” “It’s not the same, nobody got hurt” she replies. “I hope not” was all I could say.



.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. Does this organization receive any government funding?

I find it interesting that the director was being so cagey and evasive about the religious requirements. Why bother hiding your Christian affiliation unless there's some reason for it?

[stopschoolpaddling]

3. Not that I know of, could be he just didn't want to wind up looking bad

in another one of my local newspaper editorials. They are so behind the times here it's not hard to take their airless arguments and inflate them. Later I realized that he had already answered all my questions when he said, "Lady, you are in the wrong place." And what he said was true in more ways than he could have known.

[ladywnch]

12. I think Hello Kitty may have something here......

what other reason could they have for posting such a disclaimer ('people of all faiths or no faith are welcome')unless they are trying to get around some legal issue. it might be worth investigating.

in the mean time, buy your child enough stars to completely cover her megaphone (or what ever it was) and see what they have to say.....make her look like the top of her group. if they complain simply explain that your daughter has successfully recited the values YOUR family holds dear and since they are unwilling to reward her efforts, you would from here on out.

maybe you'll get lucky and their heads will explode.........bonus!


edited to correct typing

[Richard Steele]

2. K&R

[stopschoolpaddling]

4. I'm not up on the symbols here. Could you explain what K&R stand for?

I may look stupid for asking but if I learn something that's all that matters. By the way, while we are at it what does n/t stand for?

[sinkingfeeling]

5. Stands for 'kick' and 'recommend'. Since it appears that this Upward Sports and cheerleading thing

is in churches, are you saying your child participates at a public school in this?

[stopschoolpaddling]

20. It is being held at the civic center.

[lazarus]

7. n/t means

no text. that way, if you're not reading the thread in "View All" mode, you skip clicking on that post, as the poster has said everything in the subject line.

Nice editorial. Intolerance needs to be pointed out whenever it happens. The non-religious are among the few groups left that the general public feels comfortable being bigoted against in public.

[stopschoolpaddling]

21. Thank you. Do you think I should send it to our local newspaper as in Dear Editor?

I've had two letters published there both slamming corporal punishment in schools. I've already alienated and pissed off the entire community with those so why stop there. I'm sure this will not go over too well in this area either. Or should I just let it go?

[lazarus]

22. go for it

this stuff needs to be aired.

[proudohioan]

30. Thank you for clarifying "n/t"...

I was wondering also.

[ChicagoSuz219]

11. Here ya go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x190

This is the DU glossary. Bookmark it. Someone recently sent it to me when I didn't know either...

Have fun!

[Richard Steele]

33. Here's a thing that has fallen out of fashion on this board: WELCOME TO DU!

There was a time when no 'newbie' made it past 5 posts
without recieving that message.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. Here's what their website says.

Anyone – children and volunteers of any faith or no faith – can participate in Upward sports.

http://www.upward.org/aboutUpward/

[provis99]

9. and here's what they really mean:

"children of faith and no faith can participate, but we are going to push religion at them one way or another". Keep fighting them, they deserve to suffer public embarrassment for their un-christian hypocrisy and downright rudeness.

[xfundy]

8. Sounds like a good test case for one of those "religious freedom" groups

You know the ones, they go on about how their lawyers "fight for religious freedom for All," yet they only seem to care about xians who want to force their nonsense down the throats of others.

[Obamanaut]

23. If one goes into the lion's den, one should not be surprised to feel

lion's breath on one's neck.

If you send your kid to a church activity, expect to have churchy stuff offered up to the kid. It's that simple.

When you voluntarily participate in that activity, they are not forcing "their nonsense" down throats. You volunteered. Simply 'unvolunteer' and walk away.

[JoeyT]

28. Then let them hold their indoctrination

at the church instead of the publicly funded civic center.

[ladywnch]

10. Surely there is someone above this 'director' person.

there has to be a board of some kind or a president/ceo. I would go to them directly. Failing to get results from that, I would go to the local paper. I think the internet is too big a forum for such a localized issue. local papers, local news programs....that is where to hit them.

[8 track mind]

13. Upwards has allways been a fundy group

We used to call it "slam dunking for Jesus"

[Tutankhamun]

15. LOL. That reminds me of the time I was playing pickup basketball and

there was a guy playing who looked just like Jesus (at least, the white, long-haired Jesus so often portrayed in art work). I remember him driving for a layup and one of his buddies shouted, "Jesus to the hole!" Jesus was not bad at hoops!

[8 track mind]

19. LOL!!!!!

Jesus to the hole!!!!!!!!

Growing up in fundy central, we had all sorts of organizations "for Christ"

For example (and i'm not making these up)

Archers for Christ
Skeet Shooters for Christ

and details are a bit fuzzy, but i want to say that there was CB radio club that was Christ oriented

It never ends.....

[Tutankhamun]

24. Apparently there isn't anything people won't try to affiliate with Christ.

The weirdest one I've ever seen is a company that unclogs draind, like Roto Rooter. They're called "Jesus Rooter." It says it in big letters on the side of the van.

[8 track mind]

36. That is a comedic gold mine..............LOL n/t

[hatrack]

31. After Two-Year Hiatus, Christ Returns to NBA

After a two-year hiatus, Jesus Christ returned to the NBA last night, taking the court with his former team, the Atlanta Hawks. Christ, who quit the sport in May 1994 to focus on spreading His message of universal love and compassion, made His triumphant return last night against the Bulls, just in time for Easter Sunday.



The return of Christ, who averaged 18.2 points and 7.3 assists per game during his 10-year NBA career, has excited success-hungry Hawks fans, who are calling Him the team's "Savior." Said Atlanta resident and devout Christian Jeff Voorhees, "Jesus is Lord." Christ's decision to return to the Hawks surprised insiders, considering that for years the Nazareth native had been crucified by the Atlanta press. Since He was drafted third overall out of Texas A&M in 1986, Christ has been labeled too passive and forgiving to ever lead the Hawks to the promised land. Christ, however, has now apparently decided to turn the other cheek. "I forgive Atlanta Journal-Constitution sportswriter Stan Sheridan," Christ said. "He knows not what he writes."

The closest Christ came to signing with another team came in December, when He spent 40 days and 40 nights in the desert with Detroit Pistons coach Doug Collins. After consulting His father, God, Christ turned down the Pistons' offer of 30 gold pieces. "Get thee behind me, Coach Collins," Christ reportedly said.

Though some say the media led Christ to quit basketball, many contend He quit after being betrayed by teammate Kevin Willis during a 1994 Celtics-Hawks playoff game. With three seconds left and the Hawks trailing by one, Christ was wide open underneath the basket for an easy layup. Instead of passing to Christ, Willis took a wild shot from three-point range, missing the net completely. After the game, a visibly upset Christ stretched out His arms and said, "Kevin Willis, why hast thou forsaken me?"

EDIT

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097

[Tutankhamun]

34. That's the dude I played with!

[hatrack]

37. But you gotta wonder . . .

The Hawks?

[Tutankhamun]

38. Well, Jesus supposedly did have a thing for helping the meek and downtrodden. :-)

[msanthrope]

14. You might have recourse against them--where did this take place?

And how is it funded?

If these activities take place at a public park, or a public or charter school, then you should complain, mightily, to either the locality and/or the school district.

If they get a dime from any governmental entity, you should complain. That includes non-cash renumeration.

[Dappleganger]

16. All of our local Upward's activities

in this area take place in the church gyms, not anywhere that is funded by public money. Ours make it clear that they are religious but in our experience they don't push their denomination (usually Baptist, and we are NO fans of Baptist churches). We put our younger kids on the Upwards' bball teams because they were at a different time of year than community league, but the kids didn't enjoy them as much because they are not very competitive. IF you have a child who doesn't like competition but just wants to have equal playing time they are a good choice. As from community league during the summer and Upwards, there's no other choices for us because the YMCA is too far downtown and too pricey.

Too bad the UU church doesn't have a similar program. :(

[onpatrol98]

17. Missing The Conflict

I'm missing the conflict. When I sign one of my children up for a place and later discover it turns out to be something I didn't expect, I remove my child. No conflict, no recourse, I simply leave...with my child. No reflection necessary. Now, I do like the opportunity to take my money back, if I feel the place marketed something different than what they presented. No bickering, no questions, I'd like my money back and my child. Good riddance. Let them keep the stars and the verses, and the people who don't mind stars and verses.

[struggle4progress]

18. Your story keeps changing: perhaps you just studying how to flame-bait?

I have no opinion about Upward: I have no idea, for example, what a Christian sports ministry is supposed to be, or what a Christian sports ministry would hope to accomplish

But (as I pointed out in one of your R/T threads) if you signed their standard application form, you acknowledged that the program was a Christian sports ministry and was under control of the local participating church

The whole matter seems rather silly to me. I can't see, for example, that reciting bible verses in basketball practice has much to do with Christianity (as I understand it). But neither can I comprehend why anyone would enroll a child in a Christian sports ministry program (whatever that is), run by a local church, and then make a point of telling the church folk who run the program that "the bible has caused more violence and deaths than any other written text in the history of man"

On the other hand, your account is considerably embellished from your previous account in R/T. Then, you reported:

Christian Upwards basketball director says "You are in the wrong place"
... I don't think asking a question and disagreeing with the answer is such a terrible a thing to do. I didn't say I wasn't accepting of the answer. If that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. I can accept that and so can my children.
My Question : Are the children required to say the bible verses to be in the program because we don't read the book in our house and we don't practice religion?
Answer: Then you are in the wrong place.
Question: Are you saying that if we are not religious or believe in the bible that we are not welcome here?
Answer: I'm busy and I am through talking to you.
... I just walked away and told him thank you for giving me some good material for my next newspaper article ... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x236327

Now you report:

I easily found the director in the gym seated at a table and .. stated that I would like my daughter to receive a star without being made to conform to reciting the Bible verse and asked if it was possible that an exception might be made given my personal belief that the Bible has caused more violence and deaths than any other written text in the history of man and for that one reason alone, I’m not inclined to make my children recite anything from it. Once again, I witnessed an immediate aggressive attitude, no verse, no star, no exceptions, and then the words “Lady, you are in the wrong place” spewed out of his mouth.
“Are you saying that if we don’t believe in the Bible that we are not welcome here?” I asked.
“I am busy and I am through talking with you” was his seriously offended reply.
Pissed off myself, I said, “Fine, but don’t be surprised when I plaster your intolerant bigamous attitude all over the Internet” and I walked away

[sadbear]

25. Our local Upward group uses the public middle school

I got my daughter involved for self-esteem reasons (although not any longer). We knew what we were getting into, but saw an upside, too, in getting my daughter involved in athletics. Sydney recited the verses like songs lyrics, but let them fade from memory soon afterward. My biggest complaint was that the group used the local public middle school for their basketball games, raised money there, and proselytized there, too. I also suspect, though am not certain, that the school's janitorial workers cleaned up after them. Unless Upward paid the school district for use of the facilities, I have a major problem with using tax-payer funded facilities for that. Unfortunately, I never found out.

[Igel]

26. "bigamous attitude"?

I must say, I don't think I've heard that particular combination of words before in my life. Haven't a clue what it could mean. You're saying he has two wives? Or, rather, an attitude appropriate to somebody with two wives?

In any event, saying that you're going to slander or libel somebody's probably not a wise thing to do.

I get a few different points from what you say.

1. They promised to welcome your kid on the court. You say they broke this promise, yet you've said nothing to indicate they failed to welcome your kid on the court. I think you disagree what that means. They welcome your kids to participate. Your kids can get a star or not, but still participate in the main event.

2. Then there's the claim that they're being intolerant, and to show tolerance the proper thing is for you to force them to conform to your rules. It's a voluntary program that the church doesn't need to put on. Apart from uniforms, it's probably free. You don't like their rules, remember it's voluntary. Nobody's forcing your kid to be there. It may be the only game in town. If so, it's still voluntary, and the only coercion is either you or your kids' desires. They get to decide if the irritation is worth the satisfaction they get.

Upward is quite explicit about their beliefs:

"The Upward program was founded on the following beliefs:
1. We believe the Bible to be the inspired, authoritative, Word of God.
2. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons – the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
4. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
5. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
6. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, and they that are lost unto the resurrection of eternal punishment.
7. We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Each church partner conducting an Upward league or camp has agreed to this same set of beliefs which can also be referred to as a Statement of Faith."

In other word, you're asking that they not do what they said in order to do what you believe them to say. They get to decide what they mean. If you don't understand, re-read what I cut and pasted. It's quite clear. I personally don't hold the same beliefs. Doesn't mean that I feel the need to convert anybody.

3. But what really seems to tick you off is that you've made a promise you had no authority to make and seem to insist that others keep it for you. Otherwise they're breaking your promise and showing disrespect. Tell your kid that you made a promise you shouldn't have made. Model humility. Say that even though you personally disagree with forcing kids to learn Bible verses as a condition of feeling appreciated, nonetheless that seems to be the program: They can respect that and accept it, playing because they want to play, or leave disappointed. That's life. Model respect and courtesy. You may disagree with the religion entirely, yet it's part of the fabric of American life. Model tolerance, even in the face of what you think of as intolerance.

[Duke Newcombe]

27. This. Thank you for a clear, direct response. n/t

[JoeyT]

29. Find your most clutchable pearls

someone's persecuting Christians again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Let me get this straight--you enrolled your daughter in a group

that didn't hide its fundamentalist orientation.

Then you're pissed off because fundamentalists are acting like fundamentalists?

You sound like the freeps who come on here spouting right-wing garbage and then call us "closed-minded" because we don't want their right-wing garbage. (The "Democratic" part of the name should have been a clue, ya know?)

You can't blame people for acting like what they say they are, now can you?

They didn't hide their beliefs the way the Moonies do, did they?

I'm an Episcopalian, and if I had a child, I would not enroll him or her in a fundie-sponsored group, even if it was the only outlet for my child's preferred extra-curricular activity in town. Let's say I have some personal experience with how a lot of those groups treat liberal Christians.

[8 track mind]

35. You nailed it

Its almost as if this person wants to start trouble. Upwards is known for their fundy ways in this area. I do not like fundys whatsoever, but i don't go and engage them. However, if they show up on my door step, or worse, pester me when I'm REALLY concentrating on something in the garage (engine build, metalwork, etc.) then its game on.