Shrinking oneself in the presence of the Catholic Church

[toymachines]

Shrinking oneself in the presence of the Catholic Church
By Tryce Czyczynska & Lisa N. Sanders, SDNN

If a picture can be worth a thousand words, let us offer at least a few hundred.

The first meeting between President Obama and Pope Benedict XVI was July 10. While expectedly, smoothly orchestrated with tradition and a respect for authority, it has many women frowning. While an important step in reaching out to the estimated one in four that are Catholic in America, this same reaching out seems to have caused Michelle Obama to retreat within.

We see Mrs. Obama as a classy woman, brilliantly educated and strategic in her actions. We know her as fearless, bold and beautiful. We know her as out-spoken and confident. So why is it that the chief photographs of her meeting the Pope, along with her husband, show her as timid and subdued?

While she is also known to be sensitive to social cues, and may have erred on the side of overt caution when meeting this old school Pope, the images of her remain hard to stomach. Upon watching six different films of the meeting, and reviewing over 50 photographs, it’s consistently clear that Mrs. Obama chose to be meek in the line of duty.

She did don the mantilla - the traditional black veil preferred by many women when in the Pope’s presence. She wore all black, stylishly too, we might add, as is preferred for this first meeting. She covered her sculpted arms; the envy of Mom’s everywhere. Even her bow fronted blouse fit high on her collarbones, as if her heart were already crossed and blessed. We appreciate her for these shows of modesty... Read more

http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2009-07-15/news/politics-city-county-government/51-founders-shrinking-onself-in-the-presence-of-the-catholic-church

[MineralMan]

1. Michelle Obama holds no office. She was accompanying

President Obama to this meeting. She did not go into the Pope's chamber for their conversation, since she has no actual official role in international diplomacy.

The President of the United States generally follows diplomatic protocols when meeting with heads of state and their equivalents. We find it somewhat quaint at times, but it is the etiquette that greases the wheels of relations between states with very different points of view.

Michelle Obama, quite properly, was following the expected protocol for the spouse of a head of state who was meeting the Pope, the equivalent, diplomatically, of a head of state. No other option presented itself.

The meeting was not about Michelle Obama, and she played no role in it other than a public greeting. The meeting took place, as such meetings do, behind closed door, while the spouse of our President waited without.

She didn't shrink. She is who she is, but this was not an occasion for anything other than what she did.

[HeresyLives]

2. Why do the leaders even meet the pope?

The pope isn't a power in the world

Presidents and PMs don't call on the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Russian Orthodox Patriarch, the Grand Ayatollah, the Rabbi of Jerusalem...

Why the pope?

A man who insists his female callers wear a burkas-type clothing...like the 'radical Muslims'.

[get the red out]

3. +1

I wish she hadn't attended at all. I wish the President hadn't visited either.

But he has to because of tradition. Yet at what point can "tradition" ever be challenged? Tradition is killing this world.

[HeresyLives]

7. Thank you!

I should add that I'm Canadian, and our PM and his wife did the same thing. It's embarrassing after all the fuss we've made about chadors and burkas and so on, to see otherwise educated 'free' women dressed up like this.

And all because the pope will apparently faint if he sees her hair or a bare elbow, or worse, pants.

Women in Sudan just got sentenced to 40 lashes for wearing 'trousers'.

[MineralMan]

4. You deceive yourself if you think the Pope is

powerless. While he doesn't hold much power over Catholics in the US, that is not the case in much of the world. The Vatican has been treated as a nation-state for a long, long time, and that's unlikely to change.

I'm an atheist and have no interest in what the RCC believes, but there is still power there that needs to be addressed. While the Pope can no longer put people into power, the influence is there when things are close.

I guarantee that Michelle Obama would not have been turned away, regardless of what she wore. It's tradition, not mandatory. She chose to follow the tradition.

The diplomatic world is very strange, indeed.

[HeresyLives]

5. The pope has no more power

than any other religious leader, and I see no point in a President or PM meeting him to chit-chat.

Had Michelle turned up in a pant-suit and hatless, some excuse would have been made not to meet her.

Time to toss 'tradition'.

[MineralMan]

8. Whether you see the point is hardly the issue.

The fact is that such meetings take place. Further, Michelle Obama did not "turn up in a pant-suit." Why would she do that.

You're welcome to toss tradition. I'll leave those decisions to the ones who are deciding. Apparently, President Obama saw some benefit in this meeting.

[HeresyLives]

10. And I'm asking why?

I also said 'if she had' turned up in a pantsuit. Women DO wear them, you know. We have legs too.

[MineralMan]

12. Then it would have created a bit of a stir.

When in Rome.

It's old-fashioned. It's not intuitive. It exists. Tradition is a real thing that is taken under consideration in dealings with other nations. There's protocol that is observed. You think it's silly. So do I. It is not considered silly by some we deal with, so we accomodate it to make relationships go smoothly.

Get an invite to the White House and you'll find that there is protocol to be followed there, as well. Some of it is nothing but tradition. You'll see it in the invitation, which looks like something from the 19th century. You'll be expected to respond in kind. It's old-fashioned and silly, but that's how it is.

Dealing with how things are is part of the job of being President. Michelle Obama has a role, albeit a minor one. She could have simply not gone to that meeting, but probably wouldn't have missed it for the world. Getting to meet a Pope isn't all that easy, and lots of people think it is an honor.

And there it is. You don't like it. You wouldn't wear a dress and mantilla, but then, you haven't been invited to a Papal audience, either, so it's all moot.

Stuff happens. World leaders stand in a particular order for photos. I have no idea how that is figured out. State dinners have a certain order of seating. It's all tradition, and breaches of tradition can be the cause of ill feelings. Who needs that?

So, Michelle Obama decided that she'd put on a black dress and wear a mantilla, to maintain the tradition. She decided. She also decided that Malia was fine in the Peace Sign t-shirt, while knowing, no doubt, that it would stir up controversy.

I'm going to let Michelle decide what Michelle wears. Seems appropriate to me.

[brendan120678]

6. The Vatican has been treated as a nation-state because...

it is a nation-state.

[MineralMan]

9. Precisely. We even have an Ambassador to the Vatican.

The Pope is a head of state.

[HeresyLives]

11. Actually, it's a city-state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

But that's not the point.

[MineralMan]

13. Yes, as I said earlier, it is a city-state. However, it has the diplomatic

status of a state, with a full ambassadorship, etc. The relationship is established, traditional, and useful.

[HeresyLives]

14. I see one cannot question 'tradition.'

Not even Americans. Which is odd, considering the way you started.

No matter, I'm off.

[mulsh]

17. yeah and why waste time talking to the Dali Lama?

hell, he doesn't even have a country anymore. As far as adherents to his religion they're a distinct minority.
:sarcasm:

[TexasObserver]

15. I'd be nervous if I was meeting a powerful, old former Nazi

[hedgehog]

16. As a Catholic, I find a number of things wrong with the entire process.

The notion of the Vatican as a nation state or city state goes back to when the Pope was a secular ruler, not the best times for the Church. Treating the Pope as head of state also confirms the Pope as Supreme Pontiff. Believe it or not, there are people in the Church questioning whether the Bishop of Rome should have that role or whether he should be first among equals.

Forcing women to dress like 19th century widows in black veils and long sleeves also bothers me. It's demeaning to women and has nothing to do with the faith, only with the misogyny of a bunch of old men.