Stop outsourcing my customer-service calls to India

[OhioChick]

When I call to make an airline reservation, they think I’m ordering chicken tikka when I’m just trying to get an aisle seat.

November 14, 2008 edition

I talk to India four or five times a day. Unfortunately, I am not trying to halt nuclear proliferation or negotiate a Kashmir settlement.

I am attempting to achieve far more difficult goals – making airline reservations, questioning a credit card charge, and, most daunting of all, begging to restore an Internet connection.

As in so many international negotiations, what we have here is “a failure to communicate.” Basically, I can’t understand what they’re saying, while they are equally baffled by my English language skills.

(By the way, a hint to outsourcing companies: Telling your Asian subcontinental employees to identify themselves as “Kenny” or “Billy” or “Butchie” simply doesn’t work. Just as calling myself Prabha or Mahatma will not trick anyone into asking for my chicken tikka recipe.)

As a result of these daily miscommunicatons, I have booked tickets to Altoona rather than Atlanta, found out that the charge for a case of tongue depressors was justified, and learned that my Internet account either a) never existed b) was canceled four weeks ago or c) is working perfectly.
And yet I continue my daily phone calls, speaking to all those unfailingly polite people who have no idea what I’m saying – and vice versa.

“BUTCHIE:” “So, your account is T-Joe-44.”

ME: “Did you say B?”

BUTCHIE: “No, G.”

ME: “Yes, C.”

BUTCHIE: “Of course. Just a moment, please.”

Pause.

More pause.

BUTCHIE: “I am so sorry for the delay. May I have your father’s middle name?”

ME: “Yes, it is Jack.”

BUTCHIE: “No.”

ME: “No?”

BUTCHIE: “Yes, it is no, not Mack.”

ME: “No, it is not Zack, yes it is Jack.”

BUTCHIE: “Of course, still, it is not the correct name for account P-Doe-34.”

Pause.

More pause.

BUTCHIE: “Do I hear tears?”

ME: “You hear tears.”

BUTCHIE: “Oh, good. I am relieved.”

ME: “You are?”

BUTCHIE: “Beers are better than tears, Although I do not drink…”

ME: “I drink.”

BUTCHIE: “In that case I recommend a deodorant…”

Now, call me chicken. Call me anything you want. But after days of conversations like this, I realize that screams, threats, and curses don’t do any good.

They merely result in a repeat of the same answers that made no sense to any of my questions that made no sense to Kevin or Butchie or Billy Joe.
That is why I have found it is much better to change my father’s middle name to Mack, fly to Altoona and then find my way to Atlanta, come up with a use for 10,000 tongue depressors, and accept an Internet connection that provides me with more hiccups than a Hungarian dinner.

I have, however, established a close relationship with Butchie, even though he tells me my chicken tikka recipe is more Broadway than Bombay. Or did he say “Beltway?” Doesn’t matter. We understand each other. I think.

http://features.csmonitor.com/backstory/2008/11/14/stop-outsourcing-my-customer-service-calls-to-india/

[Azlady]

1. I'm sorry... I am just in tears here....

Has happened to me so many times!

[ChromeFoundry]

2. Too funny!

This reminds me of every support I have made for any reason, over the past year.

The only company I have found that employs customer service reps. that speak my language is Discover. They are ALL still located here in the U.S., and I let them know how I appreciate it every time I am in contact with them.

[desktop]

3. Wait until the only job you can get is working for these Indians

Welcome to my world.

[OhioChick]

4. I feel for you... n/t

[ihavenobias]

5. To the greatest

:)

[nichomachus]

6. Demand to speak to a supervisor

Keep demanding, until you get someone in the States. Anyone who can really help you is in the US anyway. The people overseas can only read to you from a script. They cannot solve your problem. Be determined.

[OhioChick]

8. I always do that.

If I can't understand to whom I'm speaking and they can't understand me.....what good is that conversation?

[cornermouse]

77. lots of luck.

They tend to hang up on you when you ask for their supervisor.

[intheflow]

7. That would be United Airlines.

I book a lot of travel for my boss on multiple carriers, but I've only encountered Indians working customer service with United. When I call, it's the middle of the night for them. They say the wages are okay but they work the graveyard shift because they get a shift deferential. It makes me mad that US jobs have been sent over there, and it makes me mad that they have to put up with rude Americans while probably getting paid less that US minimum wage--even with the shift deferential.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

9. Unintended consquence of British Imperialism

When the WHOLE world speaks English.... well..........................

[Deja Q]

28. By then they'll come up with a replacement for the Babel tower too...

:D

[Skittles]

10. imagine being on a conference call with them for 10 hours

and they ask me questions like, "HAVE YOU PHYSICALLY CHECKED OUT THE MAINFRAME?"

[OhioChick]

11. Imagine being in your cubicle next to one for 10 hours

And having them ask you dumb-ass questions (that my kid even knows) ALL DAMN DAY LONG!

:banghead:

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

12. How about LOSING YOUR JOB to them... TWICE!

I win?

[OhioChick]

14. You lose.....sorry.

I believe that AZlady up-thread trained 4 (H-1B's) to take over her job at different companies. Maybe she'll chime in, in the event that I'm incorrect.

I feel for you, though. It's a fear that we all have daily.

On edit to add: I'm not in Customer Service, but rather Software Development.

[Skittles]

17. yup, I'm on about job three in that department

[Azlady]

16. trained 4 in 4 different jobs.... then lost each job.....

in IT..

Sucks, I hope you are okay
Azlady

Anyone ever get them off script??? ohhhh it is so funny!
BTW helped a friend with their Apple.. had to call support, it was the States!

[RedLetterRev]

79. Four times

*I* win. But the prize isn't so fun. I make half of what I did only 10 years ago. My skills have increased, so has the cost of living, but I, like most American workers, am valued less. Those of us in IT have seen this happening since the mid-80's, mostly because IT folks, being the most-invisible ones in any organization, have always been among the first to be cut or outsourced.

[Skittles]

13. I'm lucky; I like my Indian-born coworkers

they're good - but they've been in America over 20 years. :)

[OhioChick]

15. Oh, I agree with you there.

They're very kind, intelligent and don't seem to have that God-complex.

[wolfgangmo]

76. That's because their religion doesn't recruit members for their cult.

Hindu's, or at least the ones I know, don't try to convert/recruit anyone. They believe that either you are fortunate enough to be born a hindu, or maybe if you are good enough this life, then you will have your chance to be one next time.

It's kind of refreshing to have a theological conversation with someone without them trying to "save" my ass.

[noamnety]

20. "imagine being next to one for 10 hours"

Um ...

Am I the only person who finds this post - and in fact the entire tone of the OP to be offensive?

[sledgehammer]

22. No you are not...

I've been surprised at the level of contempt toward foreign workers, especially H-1B visa workers and Indian outsourced workers.

While I understand and sympathize with the situation of those who have lost jobs to these workers, converting personal situations into some form of prejudice/stereotyping is, IMO, unbecoming of liberal minds.

Nobody is denying that outsourcing and H-1B visas have caused problems. But to start talking about tikka masala and being with them for 10 hours...I dunno, I would expect such comments on other boards, not DU.

[Skittles]

29. LOL

ooh, poor BABY - get over yourself

[ChromeFoundry]

37. Bring it into original context, please...

The poster that you claim didn't want to sit in a cubical with them for 10 hours, had nothing to do with race. The poster stated frustration and annoyance with answering very basic questions, content that the new replacement should already have known. You are propagating non-truths.

Oh, and by the way... you stated in an earlier post how hard times were for you when you lost your job and how you have risen above this and got rehired, and now in management. You continually complain that the people on this board are "unbecoming," yet you have only been here a week. I don't see a star next to your screen name (this means you are a donating member), and you have no problem with bitchin' about others opinions. You always try to make a correlation between the H-1B program and illegal immigrants (sorry, I guess the media is now calling then "undocumented citizens"). Way I see it, you are the visitor. You are only a visitor that wants to come on here and complain at the members without giving anything back. I would respect your opinion more if you actually donated and made an attempt at making a difference with your posts.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/donate.html

[OhioChick]

41. Crickets on the Donating?

I don't know who you're responding to, but have a pretty good idea. (Joined a few days ago....calls everyone "freepers" and I'll bet my bottom dollar that at least most of their few posts have been made on outsourcing/H-1B threads.....probably my news articles?......On second thought, nah, don't tell me....LOL)

BTW....the ignore feature works great. :thumbsup:

[sledgehammer]

74. I have been...

...a regular reader of DU for many years now. And just joined as a poster because I thought there was confusion around H-1 workers. I joined to share my thoughts on the issue since I have direct personal experience. As with any instance of sharing thoughts, it ends up with a (mostly) healthy back and forth discussion, with some zinging/sarcasm thrown in. I've enjoyed everyone's thoughts, especially those that disagree with me. I hope that I have provided some insight and information (my personal story, some general history about H-1Bs, etc.) as well.

I hold no ill-will toward any individual poster at all. I value each and every opinion, especially personal experiences. Disagreement is not always "bitchin". If you expect me to agree with yours and everyone else's opinion, you will be disappointed. If I expect everyone to agree with me, I will be disappointed.

You may call me a visitor or whatever you want, that's fine. But I will be on these boards to express my opinion, agree/disagree with others as I see fit, and shed light when necessary. Yes. I did make a few newbie mistakes - I apologized for those multiple times on a previous thread, and have moved on. It's your choice whether you want to do the same.

And when I say the opinions are unbecoming of liberal minds, I am referring to liberals in general. The people on this board are not the only liberal people in this country, and DU is not the only liberal presence online.

Yes, I was very fortunate to climb back up after being laid off in 2002. I went back to school, did my MBA, changed my field, and have been quite successful since. Not sure why you mentioned it in your post though; it's possible I missed the point.

Now, I did not intend to bring the H-1B abuse/illegal immigrant argument in this thread since it's not really relevant. But since you brought it up, I feel that it's fair to respond. The reason I make that connection is because I feel that there are different attitudes for two very similar situations - foreign workers taking jobs away from Americans, often with lesser qualifications, often paid a lot less, often providing lower-quality output, normally with increased communications problems, etc. (let's not forget that illegal immigrants, unlike H-1Bers, have broken the law, do not pay taxes, and many do not speak English at all). You have equated your attitude to both situations in a previous thread - while I disagree with your attitude, it does make more sense to me than those who have different attitudes toward the two situations.

As for donations...I have no problem donating and plan to do just that. I am a little low on my donation kitty thanks to my Obama/ActBlue donations for the month (yes I even made November donations), so it may have to wait a month or so. But it will come.

Thanks for your thoughts...

[NikolaC]

23. I Agree With You

The OP seems a bit racist. While I hate what has happened because of the outsourcing mess, I don't think that the Indian people who have the jobs are to blame. If no one took the jobs from here, if no one made it profitable and easy to constantly ship jobs overseas and bring visa workers here, then send them back with YOUR job, then this would not be happening. We need to place the blame and anger where it belongs, with the politicians, with Congress, with the current and previous administrations, with the Senate and with the greedy, life sucking, slave labor creating corporations, NOT with the people who are getting the jobs. Also remember that there are Indians who live here, in this country, and are legal residents and citizens.

BTW, I have ALWAYS been frustrated speaking to customer service people and, while I would rather those jobs be here, the outsourcing only continued my dislike of having to deal with "customer service".

[OhioChick]

25. Pulling the race card?

Riiight. I voted for a black man for President and you accuse me of being a racist. :rofl:

Maybe you had better brush up on those DU rules:

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[sledgehammer]

26. New standard?

"Riiight. I voted for a black man for President and you accuse me of being a racist."

Is that now the new standard for officially determining who's a racist and who isn't?

BTW, I think the commenter was referring to the original post in "OP", rather than the original poster. I don't think he was accusing you of being a racist.

[noamnety]

27. Yes, the original post - not the person

At least speaking for myself here - I referenced the OP as being offensive because the OP - the original post - including some painfully offensive stereotyping - along the lines of making repeated jokes about eating fried chicken when you see a black person.

Now if the person who posted that article can't see the problem with it even when it's called out, then I would say they should do some reflecting or maybe more reading on race issues so they can get a better awareness.

And for the record: Voting for a black man doesn't give anyone a "I never engage in racism" blanket pass. That's right up there with "I can't be racist, I have a black friend."


It's embarrassing that this is on the greatest page.

[Azlady]

30. Geez, can we all just get along -

There were no racist comments until you posted. This is an issue that so many of us must deal with sometimes several times a day. Customer Service ratings all across this country are at all time lows, this is the main reason, outsourced call centers. I think an apology is in order to the OP, calling her a racist, you are the one that put her on the defense, she was clarifying that she is not racist and your response just makes it worse. Enough already, please.
Azlady

[noamnety]

That's not accurate.

"There were no racist comments until you posted."

- making a racist comment
- drawing attention to a racist comment
- calling a statement racist
- calling a person racist

If a comment is called out as being racist, there should probably be some reflection on why that is, instead of a knee-jerk reaction that "nothing I type could ever possibly be racially insensitive because goshdarnit I voted for a black man once."

Here's a thought. Reflect on WHY several people now have said Yes, this is offensive. Just let that be, without jumping immediately to defensive reaction.

If you don't see anything offensive about someone explaining why it's so awful to have to sit next to "one of them" for 10 hours I would recommend that you also spend less time defending, more time reflecting.

[Azlady]

40. Geez this is getting so sad..

Reading in between the lines has so caused this thread to once again, go south. I think you need to sit back and reflect on why you are so quick to jump in and scream racist..again, attempting to put people on the defense of what they said and you read into their post racist, when in fact there was none.
Please.

[OhioChick]

44. As "Skittles" said up-thread:

"Get over yourself."

[ChromeFoundry]

31. Ummm...

What was the stereotyping of the "article" (OP is original poster, not thread topic or article)? That when customer service jobs are outsourced to India, both sides have a hard time understand one another? This is exactly what the author was stating. He didn't say it was because Indians are stupid or inferior to anyone. I read this and see that others continually observe language barriers in the support services sector because of the outsourcing trend.

Now, here is another scenario:
When I call my credit card company about my account and cannot understand the person at the other end, I politely ask for a different customer support representative and clearly give the reason for my request is that I cannot understand them. If they misunderstand me more than once during the conversation, I ask for another representative to respond to my needs. I will go through as many reps. as it takes until I am satisfied with my needs being supported.

Now I am sure that there are a bunch of people all "Up In Arms," because I am making these people feel like they have failed at their jobs, and they my be disciplined for not being able to perform the task... Well, tough. I am paying my credit card interest every month. I am paying for the customer service representative's salaries. I am the consumer! And the consumer is why the job is needed in the first place. They did fail at their job and they should be fired. I never had problems when customer support was located in Alabama, Texas or Delaware. Were used to be able to communicate and even joke around together during our calls... We could talk about the bad weather that was hitting the Northern States... We could say, "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and talk about the big fat Ham cooking in the oven" without wondering if that was going to be labeled as religious inconsiderate to those of Hindu beliefs.

Fact is, their job is to support me as a customer. If I think the performance sucks... I'm going to complain. If you want to call that racist, fine, because I don't really give a shit what you think about me.

[Azlady]

34. THANK YOU Chromefoundry, appreicate your post! n/t

[Realityhack]

35. I always ask for a supervisor.

Wither the problem is a language barrier, the rep not having the power to act, or simple carelessness. The supervisor almost certainly makes more per hour than the CS rep and typically the procedure in a call center is for the rep to wait while the supervisor deals with the issue. If the company expects to save money by hiring people who can't do the job (regardless of the reason)... I beg to differ. I will cost them the most I can until my issue is resolved. At some point maybe they will figure out that one well trained person is cheaper.

[noamnety]

36. Let me ask you this.

In all your struggles to communicate with tech support, have you ever ONCE been misunderstood as trying to get a chicken tikka recipe?

What do you think is the purpose of that comment? Is it to underscore difficulties in communication between customers and companies operating on a global level? Or is it also about something else?

That's not a realistic scenario, obviously ... yet there's a reason it's in there, to make associations with the culture - and not in a positive way.

-------------
One of the things I strongly dislike about American culture, after having lived elsewhere, is the sense that the burden of communication is always on the OTHER person, the nonEnglish speaker. We have a widely monolingual culture that doesn't see that as a fault on our part; we see it as a fault that other people don't learn our language well enough. We treat English as the default setting for all business. So if we buy a product made by an American company, we demand that customer support is given by Americans who speak American English without an accent. If we buy a product from a foreign company, we oddly still expect all customer support to be in standard American English. Even more oddly, if customer service is offered in multiple languages - we get offended that we have to press one for English - so it's not even that we can't get support in our native language - we are offended that others can get support in their language. In my town, they've been trying to legislate that a storefront has to have their signage in English. We're actively offended by the presence of other languages.

Now we have this weird obsession over names. Let's be honest - there are no more jobs gained or lost because someone uses an Indian sounding name vs. an American sounding name. But we make this an issue. If you look at WHY they are using Americanized names ... well, it's because Americans have acted in bigoted ways when they use their own names - and they are proud of acting that way. So it's a catch-22. Use your own name, we'll use hate speech against you and instead of asking how to fix our computer we will rant against Indian people. Use an American name, and we will find a way to get offended by that as well.

We have a habit of taking our resentment over corporate policies that don't favor Americans - and transferring it to hatred to groups of people who are just doing the same thing we would do - taking jobs that are offered rather than being unemployed.

[ChromeFoundry]

45. Let me respond to you...

In all your struggles to communicate with tech support, have you ever ONCE been misunderstood as trying to get a chicken tikka recipe?

What do you think is the purpose of that comment? Is it to underscore difficulties in communication between customers and companies operating on a global level? Or is it also about something else?

That's not a realistic scenario, obviously ... yet there's a reason it's in there, to make associations with the culture - and not in a positive way.

I never made that comment, so why are you asking me to respond to it?

One of the things I strongly dislike about American culture, after having lived elsewhere, is the sense that the burden of communication is always on the OTHER person, the nonEnglish speaker. We have a widely monolingual culture that doesn't see that as a fault on our part; we see it as a fault that other people don't learn our language well enough. We treat English as the default setting for all business. So if we buy a product made by an American company, we demand that customer support is given by Americans who speak American English without an accent. If we buy a product from a foreign company, we oddly still expect all customer support to be in standard American English. Even more oddly, if customer service is offered in multiple languages - we get offended that we have to press one for English - so it's not even that we can't get support in our native language - we are offended that others can get support in their language. In my town, they've been trying to legislate that a storefront has to have their signage in English. We're actively offended by the presence of other languages.

I had spent years traveling to Central Europe. I learned as much as I could to communicate with them. I never expected them to learn my language to communicate with me. I was the outsider. It was my task to build the communication bridge.. whether that be to use visual cues, draw pictures or learn their language.

When I buy a product that was made in this country 10 years ago and the company is still trying to hold on to the same old, "We are an American company, and proud of it!" slogan... but when I call customer support and get someone that can't understand me, and I can't understand them- I feel that I have been taken for a ride on my purchase.

I'm not even going to respond to your Americanized Name quote, because I didn't make accusation and it would be pointless to make the argument to your idiotic points.

We have a habit of taking our resentment over corporate policies that don't favor Americans - and transferring it to hatred to groups of people who are just doing the same thing we would do - taking jobs that are offered rather than being unemployed.

Once again, you care calling me out on hatred of groups, unwarranted. I never said anything close to the bullshit you are saying here... Please quote ANY of my posts that display some facts that back up your claims. If you cannot, I expect an appology. If anyone is stereotyping people, it is you... you have made several claims that I have some hatred for different races; that I blame the group rather than the corporations; that everyone should learn my language rather than me take an initiative to learn theirs (and that is just this post alone).

I have a problem where I am paying for a service and the company cannot serve me, their customer because they decided that they could earn higher profits by throwing someone on the phone that cannot speak American-English. No, I don't have a problem pushing a "1" for English... I do have a fuckin' problem with after I push the "1" the person that get assigned to me cannot speak English better than a Kindergartener. I am paying the company for the customer support with every purchase I make and every penny of interest accrued on my statement. That is a problem with the company and whom they choose to hire; What it is not, is, me showing hatred toward any race or group.

[noamnety]

48. Misunderstanding here

I gave a critique of the ARTICLE in the OP - which referenced chicken tikka recipes. I wasn't claiming you wrote that comment - it's the editorial in the OP. I'm pointing out why it's negative stereotyping and what the intent is. I'm asking you to do some critical thinking about it - about the editorial in the OP; I'm not accusing you of writing it.

Likewise, when I talk about "things I strongly dislike about American culture" I am not addressing your personal posts in threads, I'm critiquing a general attitude among Americans. I haven't made any claim about your personal language learning habits. I tried to make that clear, with phrases like "WE have a habit" that I was talking about trends among Americans, not you personally.

Again, apologies if that aspect of my post wasn't clear.

[ChromeFoundry]

49. Your subject line read...

"Let me ask you this."

Are you stating that I misunderstood that statement to be directed at me, personally? Of course I am to blame for that. Couldn't be that you wrote something in response to my post with the word "you" in the subject line. There seems to be a lot of false reading between the lines on this post... I sure hope that if I ever display that activity in an erroneous manner, someone calls me out on it.

Any-who, apology accepted.

[noamnety]

50. I was asking you personally

your thoughts on that line in the editorial in the OP. Not accusing you of writing the editorial.

So yes, I was addressing you in that regard. Did you have any thoughts about why the editorial referenced chicken tikka repeatedly?

[ChromeFoundry]

53. Ok, here is my thoughts...

on why he wrote that. By having an Indian call center rep. say that their name is "Jimmy" is a false attempt to make the customer feel that they are under the care of someone that understands their reason for calling. Now, if I were to call "Jimmy" and tell him my name was "Vishnu Gupta" with a thick Indian accent, do you think that if I were to ask him his name, I would get the same response of "Jimmy"?

So, in a sense, we are harmlessly being deceived from the opening sentence.

When I called "Wanita" at Discover Card last week (which prides themselves for having all their call centers here in the US: their words, not mine)... I had a wonderful experience. We joked and laughed about different things that were current in the news. If I told her that I was getting ready to make my special spaghetti recipe this evening, I am certain she would have asked me why it was special. I didn't take the comment of the author as being racist because I wasn't looking for it to be. I would not expect that "Jimmy" would have asked about ingredients found in my recipe, frankly because, I don't think "Jimmy" eats very much spaghetti.

It is only as racist as you want to believe it to be.

[noamnety]

55. That's an unfortunate association for me.

My interactions with discover in ohio (with americans) was the absolute worst customer service experience I've ever had, ending with me having to get the better business bureau involved to force them to fix the mess they made. Part of the problem was that there were fraudulent charges on my card - made a quarter mile down the street from their office. Ah, well, just a coincidence, I suppose that they have all the databases with my card number, and they can see the business where the charges were made from their window.

From there, it went downhill rapidly. So my interactions with them were decidedly unpleasant, characterized by dishonesty, commitments not followed through, incompetence. My interactions, on the other hand, with people in what I assume are foreign call centers have been pleasant, amusing, we haven't talked about spaghetti recipes, but we chat, especially while waiting for a computer to reboot. And they fix my problems. Not always as efficiently as I'd like, but miles above any service I got from Discover.

I canceled my account with Discover, and neither my husband nor I will ever do business with them again. Don't care that they are in Ohio hiring Americans, they are blacklisted in my household.

My point I guess is that there is no guarantee of quality due to nationality, no guarantee of honesty either. They are just people.

And if you go into a phone call resenting the person on the other end because of their accent, you'll probably have a more formal conversation. If you are talking to them in a humanizing way, you'll probably find a similar reaction on their part. Again, they are just people.

The name thing, if Americans weren't such idiots, they wouldn't have to provide an anglicized name. I think it's wrong to fault them for that - just like it's wrong to fault a gay person for passing as straight so they can avoid having to deal with people's bigotry 8 hours a day. The fault lies with the oppressor, not the person trying to pass without getting harassed. That's a matter of perspective, of course, but I really can't get all offended because they are "oppressing" or "deceiving" me in some way by using a name I can pronounce. I've got relatives who changed their names when they came to the US to avoid being the target of bigots, though. So it would be hypocritical for me to hold that against someone else. I think my maiden name was americanized at some point, so I am definitely not in a position to judge, having lived that identity myself.

[ChromeFoundry]

59. I am not aware of any Discover Card call centers in Ohio...

I have always been cared for by representatives located in Arizona and Tennessee. Now I am even more ecstatic about using them as my credit issuer!

You seem to have a lot of resentment and anger toward the customer service reps. employed at Discover Card; Enough to cancel your account with them. But, I cannot understand why you don't understand it when people are pissed when that newly purchased Dell Notebook displays an error every 10 minutes, and they are forced to have countless bad experiences with their customer support issues, to the point that the computer functions as a one thousand dollar paper weight for weeks until it is resolved. They have a right to be pissed off too. They are not getting proper service, just like you didn't from Discover Card.

[noamnety]

61. It was the security office specifically that was in Ohio.

Yes, I do have a lot of anger and resentment toward discover. And yes - I am one of the people who has had a lemon from Dell, I went through having to send my laptop in 5 times over the course of about 2 months, each time needing the machine, getting it back repaired, a day or two later it would die.

So yes, good question, why the difference in my attitude toward the two companies?

With Dell, my service reps (some of whom were probably Indian with some difficult to decipher accents) finally asked me "you tell me, what do you see as the solution here?" And I said "At this point, we need to admit this laptop is defective, you've had multiple chances to fix it, I want a complete replacement at no charge. And they agreed to that and it was resolved.

With Discover, when I originally reported the fraudulent charges they accused me repeatedly of making the charges. But they wouldn't give me the info on where the ordered stuff was sent to - because I might violate the privacy of the person stealing my identity. :eyes:

Then they canceled that card and issued me a new one, and canceled the fraud charges (after many phone calls). Problem solved - or so I thought.

When I tried to refinance my house a couple years later, I was rejected because they closed that account, didn't delete the charges, never sent me a bill saying they still wanted to be paid for that account - yet reported me to the credit bureaus without telling me they were filing it as an account that was in default - they totally fucked up my credit rating, which was otherwise perfect.

And like I said, the charges were made right around the corner from the security office itself - within view of their building, so I suspect it was an inside job, and the reason they didn't resolve it was that they were covering their own employees' embezzlement in some way. I have no evidence of that, can't prove it - but if you are at the scene of the crime and continue to cover it up in ways that don't make any sense, I don't have a lot of other conclusions to draw from it.

I'm amused that you find that a reason to be even more happy about doing business with them, but whatever. Enjoy their service. I will spit on their graves if they go bankrupt.

[ChromeFoundry]

67. Wow, really!?!

You had a computer from Dell that failed 5 times over the course of 2 months? If that was my computer I would have been out of business and would have had several clients thoroughly pissed off at me and my level of service to them! Those bastard Americans... they should know that it's Dells fault and not mine. They have no right to be pissed off at me because I failed to complete their project on schedule as promised!:sarcasm:

If you are only checking your credit rating once every couple of years, that is your own fault. It is your credit and your responsibility to make sure there are no mistakes in it. I find it amusing that you went through all these fraudulent charges and neglected to even go back and have alerts setup on all of your cards, and be diligent about your existing credit... that is just plain ignorance. You immediately place the blame on the credit card issuer for employing shifty employees with your claims of it being an inside job, yet you never bothered checking how deep the water was before you dove in... after already face-planting it once on the bottom!

But in all fairness- Since you are not using the only provider that does not outsource all your data to foreign call centers located in India, where the amounts of "inside jobs in credit card fraud" are nothing short of obscene... you may want to rethinking any strategy you have put in place for retirement. And for Pete's sake.. check your credit report every six months! You owe that to yourself.

[noamnety]

68. Yes, I know

completely out of line for me to hold discover accountable for any of their actions. :)

and dell, well, what can we say about that? the repairs were done within the US, so despite their call centers being overseas, I put the fault on employees within the US who lack skills to do their job. That was never a problem with the call centers.

If you want to make a point of telling me the only credit card company who screwed me over is also the only one who doesn't outsource their work, I gotta tell you, that's not the most persuasive argument you could have presented to me. :D

[ChromeFoundry]

70. Oh, that is a compelling argument...

Dell contracts out a tech to swap out one of your failing parts with another sub-standard Chinese manufactured part. It works when he leaves or returns it. You blame him when it fails again. It is quite obvious that you have absolutely no understanding of the inner-workings of a microprocessor based system and external components interact between each other, let alone the software and device driver manufactures that allow the hardware to communicate with other hardware attached to the system... yet you know it was the fault of the US tech!

For future reference, don't try to place fault in areas where you lack any pertinent knowledge because it make it really hard to take you seriously.

You really are sounding like you hate America and anyone that makes any attempt at defending the craftsmanship or laborers that reside in this country. Go back and reread your posts and tell me I'm wrong! It's pointless for me to waste my time in educating stupidity. Whatever...See ya. :rofl:

[noamnety]

71. Ooooh, the "you hate America" accusation

is that kinda like red baiting?

I openly have issues with aspects of American culture, particularly the part that puts Americans in the position of oppressors playing the role of victim.

I openly have issues with American attitudes toward having to deal with people who don't speak American English with no accent - especially when the complaint comes from people who are often monolingual which may or may not apply to folks in this thread, especially with people who self-righteously proclaim that it's right and natural that all businesses around the globe learn to speak English.

I openly have issues with much of our economy, I think capitalism - especially as we practice it - is a sort of pyramid scheme that depends upon expansion (as opposed to maintaining the status quo) and on finding ever cheaper sources of labor and materials. So when people are criticizing the effects of capitalism (complaining cause they aren't any longer the most exploitable) and their solution doesn't get at the heart of the problem (the system) and instead they start blaming immigrants and making individuals representatives of their entire race, and when they start lashing out in stereotypes while claiming their only problem is with CEO's, then pfffft, what can be done?

"It's pointless for me to waste my time in educating stupidity." Indeed. :D

[Seldona]

72. You bought a Dell, and get error messages every 10 minutes?

I believe Dell calls that a feature.

:sarcasm:

[ChromeFoundry]

73. LOL

yeah, I'd call it a reminder message...

"Dude, you got scrrrrreeeeewwwwed!"

[Seldona]

78. Too funny. I recall them putting the wrong bios on my dad's laptop.

This was after Dell and another local guy had a go at it. The local guy called it a paperweight. I had to troubleshoot that one for ages it seemed like.

I build my own when it comes to computers, but ages ago before I was able to do that, I always bought local. That way you can talk to the people that built and configured your machine.

I also used to build, work on, and sell them. Try getting Dell to come in and get your 12 workstations and the network back up in one day. I did it under warranty even though it was a user created problem. (Opening non-work related, infected, attachments not a good idea.)

Then again local doesn't always translate into a great experience, but at least you have someone to stand there and bitch at. lol

[northernlights]

56. are you effing kidding?

"One of the things I strongly dislike about American culture, after having lived elsewhere, is the sense that the burden of communication is always on the OTHER person, the nonEnglish speaker. "

So are you saying it's not enough that American jobs have been outsourced to India? That now we are supposed to learn Indian to make it easier for the Indians to supply us with customer support?!?! :nuke:

Back in the days when we wielded a lot of financial power, in the form of spending most of the money and buying most of the goods for sale, the world pretty much decided to make English the universal language of business. It's a lot easier than every sales person in the world being forced to learn Chinese, Japanese, English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Urdu, Greek, Russian, Serbian, Croatian, Portuguese, Nepalese, Mexican, Peruvian, Brazilian, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. etc. etc.

Nobody's effing blaming the Indians for taking the jobs or being forced to take on stupid American names. The whole thing sucks big time. Sad for them that they'll be the next ones on the chopping block now that the whole scam is tumbling down.

[sledgehammer]

75. Agree with you...

I agree with a lot of lwfern has said in this thread, but I agree with you here. These are American companies providing support for a product to Americans. The quality of the communication should be high enough for the average American to understand.

If we were buying Indian (or other country) owned-and-created products, I think the average consumer would be more understanding toward communication barriers.

[Azlady]

80. Quote: "I agree with a lot of lwfern has said in this thread"

No surprise there. He/She has been rude in nearly every response made.
:shrug:

[OhioChick]

39. Thanks...Well Said.

:thumbsup:

[NikolaC]

81. I Was Not Accusing You

I am also fully aware of DU rules, I just found the comments in the piece to smack of racism. Good for you that you voted for Obama. However, if you read my comment I was simply stating that I feel that the resentment for the outsourcing mess goes to the Indian people a lot of the time, instead of where it really should go.

[Realityhack]

33. I disagree...

While I see where you are coming I didn't see the OP as racist. I thought they concentrated on the issue of a language barrier being stupid in customer service.
For example this statement:
"And yet I continue my daily phone calls, speaking to all those unfailingly polite people who have no idea what I’m saying – and vice versa."
Seems to me to be clearly NOT blaming the person on the other end but rather the language barrier. Yes they focused on India... but that IS where many of these call centers are going.

Upon further reading...
The OP's comment regarding 'sitting next to one of them' does seem racist.

[OhioChick]

38. You are correct in your initial analysis.

I brought up the issue that both parties get frustrated due to the language barrier. Not only one side....but both.

On your second issue... My quote: "Imagine being in your cubicle next to one for 10 hours
And having them ask you dumb-ass questions (that my kid even knows) ALL DAMN DAY LONG!"

I have no problem criticizing the work of my fellow employees.....nor do I have a problem with "them" (US or foreign) criticizing me. I work with many foreigners and many of them are not the brightest. Plain and simple....no "racist" overtones intended.

[noamnety]

42. I think you need to sort out

whether you sit next to a stupid annoying person

or whether you sit next to a stupid annoying indian person who you've turned into a representative of their entire race (be glad you don't have to sit next to one of them - let me tell you how "they" are)

That will tell you more about yourself than your coworker. (ditto for statements like "many foreigners are not the brightest, and I don't mean that in a racist way.")

I think we all understand that we feel threatened by our jobs being sent elsewhere. Some people will demonize the economic system we are in, which is really the underlying cause of the anger and fear.

Other people will demonize the individuals and their culture who are - at the moment - seemingly profiting off that system. We as Americans are raised to believe a bit in that manifest destiny sort of crap that we are entitled to all the top paying jobs, moreso than those other people who should know better than to take OUR jobs, they need to learn their place. It's a short leap from that to other things I've seen in some of your threads - like "those people" shit in the streets ... they are disease ridden, they are awful to sit next to, on and on. All of it works to demonize them as a group.

It's destructive, the purpose seems to try to stir up resentment against Indian people, and against foreigners, Lou Dobb's style. You can tell this by looking at the tone of replies to some of your other threads - with people posting stuff like "when I went into McDonalds recently, I thought I was gonna have to order in Spanish." If you don't want to give the impression that you are xenophobic, when people make that kind of comment in your threads, it's on you to call them out for it and make it very clear that your problem isn't with people speaking a different language (which is part of life and should be embraced). You should shut that kind of speech down instead of encouraging it.

I think it's more productive to look at the SYSTEM - start examining capitalism, because that's where you will find the real causes of the things that are threatening our ability to support ourselves. It doesn't have to be this way, economically - but randomly striking out against a scapegoat instead of the cause works to mask the cause.

[OhioChick]

43. I blame the Corporations for outsourcing/H-1B's

Not the workers, themselves. Never have.

It's not MY job to monitor threads. I post about joss loss/economic issues. I'm not your babysitter.

[ChromeFoundry]

46. OK....

I think it's more productive to look at the SYSTEM - start examining capitalism, because that's where you will find the real causes of the things that are threatening our ability to support ourselves. It doesn't have to be this way, economically - but randomly striking out against a scapegoat instead of the cause works to mask the cause.

In the spirit of that... Since the H-1B program has proven to show such extreme amount of fraudulent activity... Let's just get rid of it..."it doesn't have to be this way"... Problem solved, right?

[noamnety]

47. I think you have to look deeper yet into the economic system

to find the underlying problem.

Stopping all immigration isn't going to solve the problems inherent in the system, I think we all know that.

Treating the rest of the world like we expect them to be our customers and our source for all their raw natural resources - but never our workforce - is as dysfunctional as it sounds.

[ChromeFoundry]

51. But also...

When my company invests a million dollars on a new network infrastructure, manufactured by an American Company, and pays 25K per year for upgrade and support of that product... I expect when I call technical support on the products, I will have my problem answered with a solution. Should I expect that the person on the other end of the phone should understand the product better than me? You are god damned right I do! When 85% of the products made by this company are implemented in the United States.. do I expect that their support should be able to support American-English? You are god damned right I do! Should I be pissed at the company which was the profiter of the money my company spent, over one million dollars, decided that it was important to move all support to a country that consumes <10% of the products produced, all to save a few dollars at the expense of the customer. Yes, and I am pissed at the company. And when I am on the phone with a support tech that doesn't understand the problem, let alone the product.. yes, I am pissed off at them for not taking the initiative to learning the product that they are supporting. I am not prejudice toward everyone sharing the same ethnicity as the tech support person, and I don't hate their country.

So what is your solution for this scenario? Mine is to have the tech support be moved back on-shore, and to employ talent that is local to the customer. In this case, <10% of the support people should be located in the other country. 85% should be located in the United States. Is that "protectionism" or "xenophobic" by your litmus test?

[noamnety]

52. Where are the raw materials coming from?

I'm trying to look at the total system here, not just a product appears out of thin air.

I understand your point ... but are we producing this product at this price because we are exploiting the raw resources of another country? Do they have an equally valid complaint against us that we are rendering invisible?

That might be the case, it might not be, in the particular business you are in. But overall, as part of a system, it is how the US operates. We exploit the resources of developing countries, ruin their ability to sustain their own population by destroying their environment, import the product of that process to the US, and then sell it to Americans who get all uppity because the cashier isn't speaking English.

[ChromeFoundry]

54. The raw materials...

are sourced from Mexico, Canada, United States and China. Many of the other materials have been "recycled" from technology waste sourced from the US to China, to cities that are so polluted from the lead runoff into the streams and air, that it disgusts me to even think about the quality of life these people have.

So where does the 98% of customer support residing in India fit into this equation? It's cheaper there, plain and simple. I cannot buy comparable equipment by a eco-friendly supplier because they all operate in this manner.

10 years ago, these products were made here and supported here. When you say, "we exploit the resources of developing countries," I sure hope you do not mean 'you and I.' I am strongly against the exploitations these companies are making. But that has nothing to do with my example of not being able to get support on the product in my language, unless you want to also add that moving the support to India is also a form of exploitation of personal resources.

[noamnety]

57. "we exploit the resources of developing countries"

"We" as a nation of consumers, we do those things.

The production cycle exploits - like you listed - communities in various countries, in awful ways. And it happens because the CEOs look, consistently, to the cheapest options throughout the whole cycle from production to service to disposal.

The solution, therefore, needs to address the whole cycle - rather than just accepting that the bulk of it exploits people around the globe as a fact of life - and then getting outraged that we (us Americans) don't reap the sole benefits of the service part of that cycle.

Regarding India, it seems to me the western world did a pretty good number on them through colonialism, exploiting every last bit of them that we (the western industrialized world) could get away with. Now there is resentment because they have a chance to themselves profit from that industrialization. Can we get to a point where we can understand that they (the individual employees) have as much RIGHT to those jobs as we have, even if we find it threatening to our own security, or annoying to have to deal with a language barrier?

[ChromeFoundry]

58. They do have a right to any job...

that has been exported by a US company. They are trying to earn a living, just as everyone that is losing their job in the states is trying to earn a living. The fault is solely on the shoulders of the US companies that are exploiting low wage resources in foreign countries for profit. In this regard, India has not exactly made much head way from the times of colonization. They are not moving towards self-sufficiency. They are being exploited because they will do a job for less money because their cost of living is lower.

What you don't say, is that Americans also have a RIGHT to demand companies follow solid ethics as a provider of consumables and services. Americans also have the RIGHT to demand that the elected officials do everything in their power to support the needs of those they represent... This includes putting a stop to the exportation of jobs that reside here and stopping any influx of foreigners to act as cheap labor replacements for qualified employees.

[Azlady]

60. Now just wait a minute

"the purpose seems to try to stir up resentment against Indian people, and against foreigners, Lou Dobb's style. You can tell this by looking at the tone of replies to some of your other threads - with people posting stuff like "when I went into McDonalds recently, I thought I was gonna have to order in Spanish." If you don't want to give the impression that you are xenophobic, when people make that kind of comment in your threads, it's on you to call them out for it and make it very clear that your problem isn't with people speaking a different language (which is part of life and should be embraced). You should shut that kind of speech down instead of encouraging it"



This is way out of line, this poster has been CLEAR from the get go that their issue IS NOT with the people but the Corporations, your statement is way off base, as if to say they are encouraging bashing of non-americans. They have clearly stated their worries not only for the job loss of american jobs but how foreigner workers are being taken advantage of, State side as well as off shore. She has taken on the task of helping to keep all of us informed about what is going on in the job sector, boy of all the people to attack and call a racist and that she is encouraging hatred, off base, yet again.
Azlady

[noamnety]

62. The poster wasn't clear to me.

I guess I misread when she was complaining about having to sit next to "one" - I thought she meant she had to sit next to an Indian person, not a corporation. ;)

[OhioChick]

65. My exact post (which BTW wasn't to you)

"Imagine being in your cubicle next to one for 10 hours
And having them ask you dumb-ass questions (that my kid even knows) ALL DAMN DAY LONG!"

That is "my" experience, just 2 weeks ago. Oh, and I also call upper-management "them."

Got a problem with that, as well?

[IndianaJohn]

63. What does complaining about not being able to understand someone have to do

with racism. I just don't see the connection.

If I am paying for a product that has customer service, I expect to be able to get things done. This can only occur if communication is adequate. Furthermore, having to spend unnecessary time on the phone taking care of business is wasting my time.

[OhioChick]

64. Plain and simple, thank you. n/t

[Azlady]

66. Thank you

[OhioChick]

24. You obviously haven't walked in my shoes, nor held my job.

The original article posted is what "many" Americans are frustrated with. I don't deem that to be offensive.

[blue97keet]

18. Thomson Reuters Corp. is shipping jobs to India

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20081114/BUSINESS/811140335


Some Thomson jobs in Rochester headed overseas

Matthew Daneman ? Staff writer ? November 14, 2008

Thomson Reuters Corp. is shipping some of the legal publishing work done in Rochester and two other U.S. sites to operations in India and the Philippines.

The New York City-based news and information company notified employees in Rochester, Cleveland and suburban Minneapolis about the change Thursday.

Thomson Reuters employs almost 750 people in downtown Rochester, most of them in the Aqueduct complex next to the Broad Street bridge and some in the Bausch & Lomb tower. Although the company declined to be specific about how many jobs will be affected, it affirmed its intention to maintain its Rochester operation.

Spokesman John T. Shaughnessy said the company over the next three years will relocate some work done in the three cities, such as quality assurance, loading data into databases and keying in hard copy content into digital form.

Other editorial work, such as legal analysis, product design and author relations, will continue to be done in the United States, Shaughnessy said.

In the first year of the realignment, the company plans to add 300 to 500 positions in India and the Philippines. At the same time, the company intends to cut jobs at the three U.S. sites.

Shaughnessy declined to say how many layoffs the company anticipated in 2009 but said it hopes to keep dismissals to a minimum through reassignments, attrition and a voluntary job separation program. The company hopes to have 70 workers across the three sites take voluntary buyouts in 2009.

Thomson Reuters has no plans to close the Rochester, Cleveland and Eagan, Minn., offices, Shaughnessy said. And the company is not giving any guidance for job changes it expects in years two and three of the realignment.

The Cleveland site employs about 200, Shaughnessy said, while the Minnesota office, by far the largest, employs 6,800.

Thomson Reuters was formed in April when Thomson Corp. purchased Reuters Group. Quarterly earnings results announced this week indicated that Thomson Reuters' legal division saw its revenue and operating profit rise significantly.

"The business is committed to doing this (jobs move) to ensure we remain a growing business in the future," Shaughnessy said.

[e-mail]

[OhioChick]

19. Thanks for posting that, blue97keet.

Why don't you start your own thread on that article here? I'm sure you'd get quite a few responses.

[Jim Sagle]

21. Gobble gobble said the offshore turkey.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[varun]

69. Not all customer service calls go to India

many go to countries in the Caribbean, Africa, and other parts of Asia where English is spoken.