Alan Dershowitz: Why I Support Israel and Obama

[oberliner]

Concluding Paragraph:

As I travel around university campuses both in the United States and abroad, I see radical academics trying to present Israel as the darling of the right and anathema to the left. As a liberal supporter of Israel, I try to combat that false image. Nothing could help more in this important effort to shore up liberal support for Israel than the election of a liberal president who strongly supports Israel and who is admired by liberals throughout the world. That is among the important reasons why I support Barack Obama for president.

Link to editorial:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/why-i-support-israel-and_b_135660.html

[pocoloco]

1. Hey dipfuck!! Tell us why you like torture while you are at it!!

Now that the US does it, does that legitimize Israel's??

[oberliner]

2. To say nothing of our "friends" in Jordan

Jordan: Torture in Prisons Routine and Widespread

The 95-page report, “Torture and Impunity in Jordan’s Prisons: Reforms Fail to Tackle Widespread Abuse,” documents credible allegations of ill-treatment, often amounting to torture, from 66 out of 110 prisoners interviewed at random in 2007 and 2008, and in each of the seven of Jordan’s 10 prisons visited. Human Rights Watch’s evidence suggests that five prison directors personally participated in torturing detainees.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/10/08/jordan19909.htm

[jrockford]

11. Israel is one of the worst human rights violators in the world...

it is even questionable if they are a legit country. If anyone is a 'rogue' nation it is them.

I don't get this undying loyalty to Israel from America anyway - it's not like it's mutual. Israel is not an ally. They spy on us, don't assist us, cause all sorts of problems in the region, are *not* worth the support or blood.

And that's just pragmatically speaking. Then there is what is right and wrong.

Just makes me sick. And then you have all these politicians and pundits and whatever pledging their support to Israel. It's not America first, it is Israel first and if America benefits...ok, and if not...well too bad.

I can understand the Zionists. I mean, they are evil, fanatics, as bad as any of our "terrorist" enemies. They have the pledge to Israel. What puzzles me are born agains like Bush and Palin and such.

The only thing I can think about is they are trying to self fulfill prophecy...otherwise, why do they even care? do they enjoy being evil, sadistic, and murderers *all* the time?

[oberliner]

13. Barack Obama and Joe Biden are Zionists

I do not think they are evil fanatics.

Here is a statement on their position from the campaign website:

Barack Obama and Joe Biden have established a strong record as true friends of Israel, stalwart defenders of Israel’s security, and effective advocates of strengthening the steadfast U.S.-Israel relationship. They believe that Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state should never be challenged.

As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama has consistently emphasized his commitment to our ally Israel, and has been an active supporter of legislation helping to ensure the support and security of the Middle East’s only established democracy.

www.barackobama.com/pdf/IsraelFactSheet.pdf

[jrockford]

20. The only democracy part is a complete joke

I don't care what their website says...it could say it was red like the planet Mars and it wouldn't be true.


A democracy, perhaps, in the eyes of those who created 24 or the wet-dream of Fox Newscasters. But it is far from a democracy. Israel, in many ways, is likely the type of democracy they want to transform here.

Iran had a democracy. Almost had another democracy. But it was too socialist for the time, but still elected by the people, so it had to go.

You want stability and peace in the area? Then stop tipping the scale toward "the only democracy in the mideast"

That coined phrase is sick anyway, because up until the Bush administration they were the only UN country who legalised "soft torture". Now many countries used torture, but it says something to legalise it. That's one example. So it's bad for the US to do it, as many DUers here will shout - but for Israel, it's ok cause of "national security?"

You'd have to be quite naive to believe U.S. foreign policy in the middle east has ever been about preserving democracy. Look at some of our other closest allies in the regions. Are we pressing them for democracy? naaa.

[LeftishBrit]

16. Substitute 'Iran' for 'Israel' in your post - or a few years ago, substitute 'Russia'..

and your post would sound just like something out of Freeperland or a far-right Republican's speech. In fact, it does anyway. Creating bogeynations is creating bogeynations and it's a right-wing phenomenon, whatever the nation. It's one thing to criticize a country; another to describe it as an illegitimate 'rogue state' and its citizens and supporters as 'evil fanatics' and American supporters as disloyal to their country.

And Israel does assist America (sometimes in ways that I don't approve of) and while America gives it financial support, it does *not* shed blood for it.

[jrockford]

18. If you really believe that

then they've got you fooled.

Your substitute "Iran" for "Israel" makes no sense either...Iran had a democratically elected government. It happened once and was very close to happening again, but it wasn't convenient to American-Israel foreign policy, so it had to go.

Israel has NOT assisted America on numerous occasions - per request. When it came to jet landings, to assistance, etc. They are given extreme amounts of aid, yet show their gratitude by spying on America. "Shared" intelligence is only when it is convenient for Israel. Their lobby does not have to register as a foreign lobby. Why? All other nations do. But theirs does not. And as far as America not shedding their blood for Israel...please. Israel was one hell of an instigator for this war in Iraq and is just foaming for Iran.

Further, it has happened in less direct ways too - from victims of suicide bombings for starters.

So you can dismiss my opinion as coming from 'freeperland', but there's many leftists that do not support the state of Israel. You can say you're a leftish Brit, your words sound akin to the BNP.

[LeftishBrit]

22. 'your words sound akin to the BNP'

Talk about projection!

I did not say that one SHOULD substitute Iran or Russia for Israel here. I said that right-wingers create bogeynations, and that you were talking about Israel the way right-wingers do about Iran.

I strongly oppose this sort of bogeynation creation, whether it's Iran OR Israel. By the way, I have friends from both countries.


'there's many leftists that do not support the state of Israel.'

There are many leftists who take the Palestinian side in the Israel/Palestine dispute. However, that's different from some of the things that you're saying. Real leftists are not xenophobes, and do not accuse Israel of being responsible for America's and Britain's invasion of Iraq; Iraq of being involved in 9-11; 'immigrants' of a sinister takeover of Britain; France of being 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys'; or any such canard.


And the BNP share your views on Israel, by the way, including the slander about its being an instigator for the war in Iraq. Which is just as vile a slander as the right-wing implying that Iraq had WMD and was responsible for 9-11 - and to avoid any further misunderstanding, I do NOT believe either of those slanders either, and never did; I'm just using them as analogies.

[jrockford]

23. ah

"I did not say that one SHOULD substitute Iran or Russia for Israel here. I said that right-wingers create bogeynations, and that you were talking about Israel the way right-wingers do about Iran."

I misunderstood what you meant.

However, in the same hand, I'm not a xenophobe - simply an anti-Zionist. I blame them for what I see is their course. Israel had a hand in perpetuating rumours of iraqs 9-11 involvement. I suppose you'd disagree with Galloway on that one, but then again he's not a "real leftist". They have much more blood on their hands in this issue than few dare speak about. Of course, there was that protest around the UN in NY led by anti-Zionist rabbis in support of Iran, but they were dismissed as not being real Jews.

The BNP share the view but for different reasons and they also share the view on Iran, Russia, and everything else. My comparison was I thought you were saying you agreed with the Iran bit.

[LeftishBrit]

24. Thanks for that - maybe I wasn't clear the first time

To clarify further:

Although I am a moderate (left-wing, anti-occupation, Peace Now-supporting) Zionist, I do not think that anti-Zionism is in itself right-wing or xenophobic.

However, there are different reasons for being anti-Zionist. One may be anti-Zionist because one is strongly pro-Palestinian, or because one opposes all forms of nationalism, or, like those Rabbis, because it fits with one's version of fundamentalist Judaism. None of these views are xenophobic, whether I agree with them or not. However, I do consider it xenophobic to blame Israel for dragging America, a much bigger and stronger country into 'foreign wars'; to blame Israel generally for the actions of other countries; or to regard American supporters of Israel as unpatriotic people who are not putting 'America first' sufficiently. Such attitudes are reminiscent of the isolationist, 'America First', Pat Buchanan types, whose British equivalents are the 'Little Englanders' who blame everything on the EU and immigration. And I did detect that in your earlier post. Maybe I was mistaken, just as you were about my treating Iran as a bogeynation. In any case, it is this sort of attitude, not all anti-Zionism, that I regard as xenophobic.

[Tarheel_Dem]

3. I have mixed feelings about this endorsement. I used to be a really big fan

of Dershowitz, but he seemed to morph into a neocon right before my very eyes. Thanks...I guess?

[oberliner]

4. He does claim to be a liberal

At least he has stuck with the Democratic ticket, unlike some others who seem to have crossed over completely.

Out of curiosity - what is your take on the potential Colin Powell endorsement?

[Tarheel_Dem]

5. I was conflicted about that one as well, but I have to say that I think

a Powell endorsement would be of much more value. I would really like Colin Powell to come clean once the Bush Administration has left office, I think it will be good for the country, and cathartic for him as well.

[bemildred]

6. "Me, me! I'm a liberal too!"

Jump on the bandwagon Alan, now that it's clear which way the wind is blowing.

[oberliner]

7. He's not jumping on the bandwagon

He actively supported Kerry in 2004, and even stumped for him if I am not mistaken.

[bemildred]

8. This is about Obama.

This is the first I've heard Alan pipe up about Obama. Obama's is the bandwagon he appears to me to be jumping on. It's true I don't hunt around to find everything Alan says, so perhaps you can find something and set me straight about his longstanding and vociferous support for Obama. It would improve my view of Alan a good deal if that was so.

[oberliner]

9. He has spoken of his support for Obama for some time

I meant that he wasn't jumping on the "liberal" bandwagon, which is what I thought you were saying.

As for the current race, I know he supported Hillary in the primary, but he has spoken of his support for Obama since at least July.

The Jews For Obama site has a transcript of an interview that Dershowitz did with CNN. Here is an excerpt:

CNN: And whats interesting, you have been been a Clinton supporter. After this speech yesterday, have you changed your mind? would you back Obama?

DERSH: Yeah, I’m gonna back Obama, I thought that he did a terrific job.

He clarified what he meant about negotiating with America’s and Israel’s enemies. He said he would not sit down and negotiate with a terrorist group so long as it didn’t recognize Israel and continued to support terrorism. That’s precisely what I think most Americans wanted to hear.

http://jews4barack.com/endorsements/?p=59

[bemildred]

10. Thanks. I retract my comment about Alan's jumping of the bandwagon.

I know you misunderstood me, and that I contributed to that by being less than clear. Perhaps I allowed my dislike for some of his other positions to influence me.

[jrockford]

12. BS

"He clarified what he meant about negotiating with America’s and Israel’s enemies. He said he would not sit down and negotiate with a terrorist group so long as it didn’t recognize Israel and continued to support terrorism. That’s precisely what I think most Americans wanted to hear."

I doubt most Americans really care. It's the Israeli lobby (only foreign lobby that can register as domestic, for some odd reason) that has one hell of a grasp over Washington. It's what THEY wanted to hear.

If I was a "one-issue" voter, I'd vote for a fringe ticket. It makes me sick whenever I hear it, so I try to forget it while I campaign and support. Hopefully it's just BS to make the Zionist lobby "content". It's sick to think that someone would force an oppressed people to recognise their "colonial masters" in an essential apartheid.

And for all that want to give me flak, I don't give a damn. I've been there. Have you? I've been there a long time. Have you? Have you seen what the Israeli's done? Do you really think the "score" is anywhere close to even.
How would you feel if this happened in your backyard? A bunch of, oh, I don't know, "Scary Muslims" started homesteading illegally. Would that be ok with you?

Hypocrites.

[oberliner]

14. Your view on this topic is not shared by the Obama/Biden campaign

You can read about their position regarding Israel on the Obama/Biden campaign website linked upthread.

Also, AIPAC is made up entirely of American citizens, thus it is a domestic lobbying organization.

I think most people want to see a peaceful resolution of the conflict with a secure Israel living side by side at peace with a Palestinian state.

Would you embrace that goal?

[jrockford]

19. A peaceful and equitably fair resolution.

Your assessment of the Israeli lobby is incorrect too. The Irish Republican lobby was made up of dual citisens and still has to register as foreign.

And I know my view on the topic is not shared by the Obama/Biden campaign. That was my point. I'm voting for him, I like him on many other issues, but on this one - I hope he seriously re-thinks the benefits/harms it brings to America.

[Prophet 451]

15. I'm glad someone's taking a pragmatic approach

You can't negotiate with terrorists because terrorists are nuts but in the end, you're going to have to negotiate with someone. I support the existance of Israel as a nation but have specific problems with some of their policies (most especially, the occupied territories). I don't know if that makes me a zionist or whatever but mainly, I want people to stop dying. I don't know who started this whole mess but to be honest, does it really matter anymore? A Palestinian kills some Israelis so the Israelis take revenge so the Palestinians take revenge for that and on and on like some demented roundabout.

In the end, either everyone is going to be killed off or someone with guts is going to have to say "Enough, just let it end". It doesn't really matter anymore who started it, there's plenty of blame to go around. It just needs to end so people stop dying.

[LeftishBrit]

17. Great post; I fully agree

[bemildred]

21. Actually, you can negotiate with terrorists, it's generally one of the things they want.

Which is why governments don't want to do it. It gives them and their causes legitimacy, etc. But it works fine, it's done all the time.