Bush or Kerry...no difference

[kalian]

http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/nscoverstory.htm

The man who, after Super Tuesday, is all but certain to become the Democrats' candidate for president is as dedicated as any Republican to the American empire. By John Pilger

A myth equal to the fable of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction is gaining strength on both sides of the Atlantic. It is that John Kerry offers a world-view different from that of George W Bush. Watch this big lie grow as Kerry is crowned the Democratic candidate and the "anyone but Bush" movement becomes a liberal cause celebre.

While the rise to power of the Bush gang, the neoconservatives, belatedly preoccupied the American media, the message of their equivalents in the Democratic Party has been of little interest. Yet the similarities are compelling. Shortly before Bush's "election" in 2000, the Project for the New American Century, the neoconservative pressure group, published an ideological blueprint for "maintaining global US pre-eminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests". Every one of its recommendations for aggression and conquest was adopted by the administration.

One year later, the Progressive Policy Institute, an arm of the Democratic Leadership Council, published a 19-page manifesto for the "New Democrats", who include all the principal Democratic Party candidates, and especially John Kerry. This called for "the bold exercise of American power" at the heart of "a new Democratic strategy, grounded in the party's tradition of muscular internationalism". Such a strategy would "keep Americans safer than the Republicans' go-it-alone policy, which has alienated our natural allies and overstretched our resources. We aim to rebuild the moral foundation of US global leadership . . ."

...more...

Author: John Pilger.
Note: I'm reposting this same article but this time from a different
news source. The previous thread that I started was hijacked by
some bad-mouthing folk who blasted Counterpunch.org
So...here's the SAME article but this time from a more "reputable"
source. Let's see what people come up with now... :eyes:

[saltpoint]

1. The Rove campaign team sends you its --

-- heartfelt thanks.

[kalian]

7. And just what the hell do you mean with your post?

Huh? Trying to be cute or something? :eyes:

[BeHereNow]

9. Dismissing and ridiculing

are the new world order tools of stifling dissent.
discussion and debate,
among both the "left" and "right."
Haven't you figured that out yet?
Americans are in the grips of the same collective
neurosis, they just haven't figured out that the
behavior and tactics are the same on BOTH sides,
They use it against their "enemies" (those who don't agree
with EVERYthing) and sadly, they use it against each other,
as you are finding out...
(((HUGS)))
BHN

[saltpoint]

20. I'm not that cute, no.

My post suggests that your rounding up this Kerry-the-same-as-Bush article (reputable source or no) is getting old on DU.

It's also being rejected by several hundred thousand Democratic voters nationwide.

I would prefer a Kerry foreign policy to a Bush foreign policy.

That's what I meant by my post.

[kalian]

26. Even if Kerry continues to do the same thing....

:eyes:

Cute...really cute. I guess because he's a "liberal".
Kerry's voting record during these past three years is abysmal to
state the least. He voted IN LINE with the repukes...
You actually think that he's going to bring about change...

Dream on...

[saltpoint]

28. Let's see. Democratic website --

-- full of Democrats, many pleased with their nominee, and encouraging for his chances against Bush in November.

You're right -- my entire position is groundless.

If you could give me a reasoned & seasoned rationale for the intensity of hatred you feel for this guy, maybe I could understand it.

Otherwise, it just seems like you're slinging doo-doo.

[kalian]

33. Ah yes...character assassination...

nice tactic. :eyes:

Whatever...enjoy your illusion.

[saltpoint]

34. If you can't account for the equality of other Democrats' --

-- votes and pretend your vote is superior or your moral vision is stronger, you need to take it up with THEM.

My state hasn't even voted yet.

No assassination, just a point on accountability.

[kalian]

35. Sorry...."them-they" will vote for you....

;)

[saltpoint]

39. Oh yes -- subject-verb agreement.

Who knew you were a stickler for grammar?

[Old and In the Way]

40. If you feel that way, then vote for Ralph or George.

Really, if you think they are the same, then I can't see wasting my time arguing with you.

[BeHereNow]

2. I gave you this:

Cause I hear you LOUD and CLEAR and frankly
I am terrified.
Please note, I know the author of this peice and
he is neither a dem or repub, rather the most brilliant
researcher/analyst I have ever read.
His work disturbs a LOT of people, but he has been
DEAD ON for all the years I have followed him.
You are not alone Kalian. Some of us do get the bigger picture
and it is scary as hell.
BHN

from Axis of Logic-
February 15, 2004 - To see the world as it is, not the
way you think it is, not the as you wish it to be, is not the
easiest thing to live with or get others to accept.
"Anybody but Bush," is a sad commentary on the
Democrats...one hoped they stood on better ground.
The problems our country faces are not the sole
effects of Bush. Replacing him with an-"other" will alter
the decaying constitutional course but slightly, slow
the descent into empire not at all, change nothing
about outcomes in Afghanistan nor Iraq. It will not alter
the course America has been on for five
decades....aided, abetted by both D’s and R’s, both
Houses, every White House resident. This election is
about grown-up stuff."

[kalian]

6. Thank you BeHereNow....

I appreciate you posting in my threads.
Yes, its extremely scary but its even scarier that people are
seeing that much further out...

[KC21304]

3. Same shi_ . Different toilet paper.

[kalian]

5. Another example....of a closed mind....

[BeHereNow]

13. Actually...

I think it more an example of the hate-mongering
technique of ridiculing, dismissing and insulting
anyone who raises critical debate.
It's like having our own Bill O'Reallys without
having to turn on the news!

BHN

[saltpoint]

22. Well, again, good sir --

-- the door's over THERE if you feel that repelled.

[kalian]

37. Same tactic....

as the repukes use when we criticize shrub and his minions.
That's what BHN is stating...that both sides of the political fences
use the exact same tactics.

Scary to think what America has come to be....

[saltpoint]

42. Well at least you admit openly to criticizing Kerry.

Now if we can just determine why.

Honestly -- you seem to have an ax to grind and Kerry seems to be your victim.

You fear that Kerry's policies will not differ from Bush's, and you have been strongly disagreed with on this thread.

Isn't that what a forum is for?

Disagreeing with you isn't a tactic. It's a point against your argument.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

46. btw...

It's "Miss" BHN, not Sir.
Sorry that you are of the mind set that objective self education is
equivalent with "elitism."
That is unfortunate indeed.
You might want to stash part of that beer for the
storm ahead, 'cause, as the saying goes,
"you aint seen nothin yet..."
These people are just getting warmed up.
Oh, and I see you have not been a DU member for
all that long, so WELCOME to DU!
Stick around, it's going to get interesting.
I highly recommend that you bookmark this thread
for future reference.
BHN

[saltpoint]

47. Ya know Miss:

The pops are sweeter and the taste is new
They're shot with sugar through and through.

--it's an old cereal ad.

Dig it and dig it the most

[BeHereNow]

48. Sorry,

I have NO idea what you are talking about.
Did you break into that beer early?
I TOLD you- you are going to need it later!
BHN

[saltpoint]

50. To continue in English, press '1'

[saltpoint]

21. Quite so.

It's also spiteful. If they don't like the guy, no one's holding them at gunpoint to vote for him, but the door's over THERE.

[WitchWay]

4. Progressive Internationalism

This is a really good article. I don't think many people are aware of "progressive internationalism". I read the report on progressive internationalism the other day, and it made me even more worried and distrustful than I was about the foreign policy stance of the Democratic Party (and Kerry - he mentions "progressive internationalism" on his website). This article really begins to explain why anti-war voices and candidates, like Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean, were ignored, marginalized, and basically "disappeared" during the campaign.

This tells more about how the democratic party intends to be "progressive":
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_sub.cfm?knlgAreaID=124&subsecID=158

[Tank in Texas]

11. I think...

...the anti-war candidates, especially Dean, who was the media's darling before the Iowa Caucus, had their say. The issue of the occupation and war in Iraq is highly complicated and both sides tend to oversimplify the situation from their positions. I believe it was a senseless tragedy done for purely economic reasons (oil.)

That being said, I do believe our military should be used properly to hunt down terrorist cells. I just don't think we're utilizing our resources very well (no big surprise with Bush, eh?)

[BeHereNow]

15. GREAT Link Witchway!

The snake has two heads, clearly.
They fully intend to continue the march
of global domination, only with a smile rather
than a sneer.
BHN

[patriotvoice]

8. "6 of one, a half dozen of the other"

Pilger's article also appears on antiwar.com, at: http://antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=2089

My choice this November will be:
1. A known imperialist who shirked his military obligations and has never seen the horrors of war.
2. A potential imperialist who has first-hand experience of seeing comrades torn to shreds.
3. A consumer advocate who cannot statistically win and whose imperialistic tendencies are, therefore, inconsequential.

I have never voted along party lines. My political orientation is "so far to the left, I'm on the right." I will always vote for the candidate who aligns with my values, regardless of their affiliation, sex, race, religion, and so on.

Having lain out these options and set the background on my political persuations, my choice is clear: #2. I would rather give a man the benefit of the doubt than hand the reigns back to someone who will definitively denigrate my values.

However, voting for Kerry will be distasteful for me. Despite the fact that I am giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt, beside the fact that he has first hand experience with the tragedy of combat, and despite the fact that I think he's basically an upright individual, something about him gives me a bad feeling. I hope he will allay my fears.


As a side note, the Daily Brew also makes a case for Kerry, along similar lines, at
http://www.thedailybrew.com/

[kalian]

10. And what will you do....

when Kerry continues the imperialist war? That's what I ask of
everybody that will be voting for Kerry.
So, what will democrats and other liberals do when Kerry continues
the shrub doctrine?
Will everybody just shrug and start defending Kerry like the
repukes defend shrub? Ahhh! That be the question!

[patriotvoice]

12. A sagely question...

... and one that everyone should be asking themselves today, months before they cast their vote.

As I said, I don't tow the party line. If Kerry continues the G.W. Bush doctrine, I will be protesting Kerry as vehemently as I have with Bush. I will be writing letters, visiting my representatives, organizing the people, and staunchly holding Kerry accountable for his actions.

Vote for what you believe in, and hold those for whom you vote accountable. Politicians have lost fear of accountability, on both sides of the lines, and what we as voters really have to assure is that we start holding their feet to the fire.

[kalian]

24. The problem is....

NONE of these politicians can be held accountable for their actions.
NONE.
People actually believe that the political system in this country
is "perfect". Its not just about pulling a little lever every four
years...its more than that, but the majority of the sheeple don't
understand what democracy is all about.

We're getting screwed and the majority of the victims don't even know
it. :eyes:

Enjoy....

[patriotvoice]

51. All problems have solutions.

I'm not sure how you can be authoritative to what people - either as a collective whole or individuals other than yourself - believe, so it's difficult for me to accept your assertion that "none of these politicians can be held accountable."

Furthermore, rarely in history has change ever been affected on a large scale by a "majority." Colossal change germinates from tiny nuclei, and it would only take a dedicated handful of the American population to hold politicians accountable.

"A man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."

We have neither given them imprimatur to run our ship aground nor have we given them impunity. We have vertiable bullets all around us: installing leaders who are sympathetic to our desired change, demonstrations, civil disobedience, marketing and psychological tactics, and so on up to real ammunition.

But we lack the cohesive organization and funding necessary to use our weapons. If we're going to affect change, we the people must cache our arms and be prepared to use them.

A single man whom we elect cannot do it, but he can either be supportive of or detrimental to our cause. Kerry has not yet proven himself to be detrimental, and it would be unfair and illogical to assume he will, despite my intuition.

[saltpoint]

30. What will you do if he doesn't?

What you might do if he doesn't is apologize to the voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Maryland, California, New York, Ohio, Georgia, and so forth, for tarring their candidate.

Their votes are not inferior to your vote.

Their viewpoint is not inferior to yours.

But they do seem a lot more cool-browed.

[kalian]

38. Another tactic...

redirecting the subject.
Nowhere have I stated that my viewpoint is "superior" to anybody
elses.
All I am stating is that there is a very big possibility that we're
going to see the same actions conducted by a dem WH as a repuke WH.

What will I do IF Kerry does in deed prove his worth? First of
all, I'll be pleasently surprised and relieved that I was wrong.
Secondly, I would be more than happy to state that I was wrong to
doubt him and I would, from then on, pledge my support for him.

What would you do if he doesn't...? Hmmm?

[saltpoint]

41. Then why not give the man a chance at the get-go?

You assume he won't act independently. How do you know this -- because the article says it?

No sale.

Nobody knows what's going to happen.

[BeatleBoot]

14. I really don't get it...

The schools in my area are getting pummeled by the Bushies with unfunded Republican mandates.

Cops are getting yanked off the streets in my neighborhood because of federal funding being cut by Bush and his Republican Congress.

The economy is in a shit hole due to Bush economic policies.

The surplus turned into a record deficit via Bush and his Republican Congress.

Bush cut out overtime pay for 8 million workers.

Bush wants to cut Social Security benefits just in time for the upcoming baby boomer retirements.

Gasoline is almost $ 2.00 per gallon in my area.

Halliburton is overcharging the U.S. Taxpayers after receiving no bid contracts.

The Bushies are being investigated regarding the outing of a CIA agent.

Air Force One phone records have now been subpoenaed.

Bush has tried everything he can to stifle the 9-11 investigations.

But somehow, Kerry is just like Bush and is part of the problem?

To me, that just doesn't square with reality.

Sorry.

[tabasco]

16. They lack empathy with their ivory tower intellectualsm.

They do not understand the actual pain and suffering that the republicans cause when placed in power. They are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant when they claim there is "no difference." I wonder why they post on this site. They need to find a site catering to nudist utopians. This is the real world. Democrats are trying to save the world's only superpower from becoming a tool of the corporations. The nudist utopians would rather stay at home, vote for a fringe candidate, and watch the country go down the toilet. We are better off without them. They will not fight. They will sit on their hands and condemn everyone for not being perfect like themselves. They make me sick.

[WitchWay]

17. Is being opposed to war ignorant?

Is being anti-war ivory tower intellectualism? Is being anti-imperialist ivory tower intellectualism?

It is those who support wars and imperialism who are CAUSING the actual pain and suffering of many throughout the world. Democrats, also have cause the SAME kind of pain and suffering. Take a look at Clinton's record. You are being unrealistic if you beleive that the problems are one-party. Simply placing a vote for the democratic candidate is not enough to solve these problems.

Saving the world's only superpower from becoming a tool of the corporations? Remember it was Clinton who signed the WTO, NAFTA, who bombed Serbia and Iraq. The democrats are already a tool of the corporations, and have been so for a long time. The only difference is that they are not quite so bad, and have nicer rhetoric.

[Disturbed]

18. Kucinich

He is the only candidate that makes sense to me. If I knew 100% that the Congress would turn into a Dem majority with many Dems that had similar views as Kucinich I would be OK with the NeoCons in power. Since this is not a realistic hope, I will vote for Kerry inspite of the fact that he is my 3rd choice.

I realize the Oligarchy won't radically change with a Dem Admin.

[kalian]

19. Great post WitchWay

:toast:
I wish that more people would see it as you have described it...

[saltpoint]

27. Yes. There is a lack of empathy.

They post, some have suggested, so that they are "covered" next November in the event of a Kerry loss.

That way, they're "covered" when they say, "See, I told you he'd lose to Bush." I've given that some thought lately.

Otherwise, I'm left with the idea that it's pure meanness of spirit.

[kalian]

31. Oh bullshit!

The issue here is that either way WE, the VOTERS, will lose.
NOTHING is going to change with Kerry in the WH. It'll be re-dressed
with some other images but essentially we're going to see the
same crap.

So, I gather you actually believe that our troops will be called
home. You believe that Kerry will wave his magic wand and everything
will go back to "normal"... :eyes:

[saltpoint]

36. Again, kalian, I do not acknowledge that your view is --

-- the morally superior view. I hold others' views equally in mind.

That means the Absolute that you are peddling on this thread is not superior to mine, or to anyone else's.

We happen to disagree on Senator Kerry. If you don't like the guy, don't vote for him.

But if you besmirch him on a DU post, expect some reaction. You've gotten some tonight.

[saltpoint]

23. Agree wildly. EXCELLENT post.

Just excellent.

[megatherium]

25. OK, so Bush and Kerry are no different.

But I'm still going to vote for Kerry because I want to see the look on Bush's face WHEN HE LOSES THE ELECTION! YEAH!

(Actually, Kerry has a solid liberal voting record. I mean, Bush introduces a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage but Kerry is one of only 14 senators to vote against the Defense of Marriage Act. Come on.)

[robertarctor]

29. Oh, yeah. The Gush vs. Bore meme, dressed up in new clothes.

Sorry, lads, but I'll take my chance with John Kerry. To say he's no different than the Chimp and his Nazi minions is, IMHO, idiotic.

[saltpoint]

32. Yes. And to say so with such persistence at such a --

-- level of intensity suggests that some people need to feel morally superior to others. And so they berate their support of John Kerry. I'd prefer a ticket of MY own making, but in the OFF CHANCE that I don't run the world by this November, I'm going with the Senator form Massachusetts over the pseudo-cowboy from Crawford.

[Old and In the Way]

43. It's the elitist club. You're not invited!

To join, you must hate both sides equally...even though, clearly, it's been the Republicans who've controlled both Houses of Congress for 8 years, SCOTUS for about the same period of time, and the WH for the past 3.

Clearly, Kerry will be the most liberal, most progressive nominee in my lifetime...but that's not good enough.

I figured there are 3 basic posters here that posit this trash:

(1) The politically naive...fresh out from their PolySci 101 course.
(2) The politically bitter....their candidate lost, so fuck you.
(3) The politically dishonest....Freepers and Naderites in disguise.

But what the hack, I'll bet they have theirs and a passport that's handy, just in case.

[saltpoint]

45. Oh No! Oh No! You mean I'm not INVITED??!!

SHIT! That means I bought all this beer for nothin' !

[LibertyorDeath]

49. Kerry is the lesser of 2 evils nothing more, nothing less

Politics is Power and power corrupts that's why were in this fucking mess. Corporate America whores itself to Repubs and Dem's with equal success and vice versa. Does an honest politician get to be President of the USA no and it's designed that way if by chance one got thru to be the Prez they would not make it thru their first year in office. The funeral would be televised world wide.

This in no way diminishes the fact that the current shit weasel has gotta go!

[Martin Eden]

52. Pilger is both RIGHT and WRONG

Pilger's article is a much needed wake-up call for the Democratic faithful who believe U.S. imperialism is strictly the domain of the current Republican administration. Both parties have harnessed, or have been dragged along by the beast of military/industrial/corporate/world hegemony.

Nevertheless, there are important differences between the foreign policies of Bush and Kerry. The Bush neoconservatives are implementing an interventionist strategy so brazen and reckless that former allies who were comfortable with the empire for the last 50 years are now very apphehensive, and anti-Americanism is on the rise throughout the world.

Do any of you see this as a positive development? Since Americans seem incapable of taming the beast from within, should we be encouraged if the rest of the world challenges us from without?

Obviously they cannot challenge us militarily, at least not in the near future. Besides, no one wants a military slaying of the beast that would entail massive death and destruction.

No, if the empire can be defeated from without, it will be accomplished with economic weapons. The United States, with its huge national debt and trade imbalance, is much more vulnerable than most would imagine. If investors in Asia and elsewhere decide the dollar is no longer a wise investment, and if the world -- in a backlash against the excesses of Bush imperialism decide to drop the dollar in favor of the euro -- then the mighty American economy can indeed be taken down, and the mighty military will eventually be starved to death.

Such a scenario is not without tremendous costs. A beast of this magnitude is likely to lash out savagely in its death throes, and the economic collapse will be much harder on us and our children than anything we are experiencing now.

The difference between Bush and Kerry is that Kerry will at least postpone this crisis, and ameliorate some of the contributing factors. He will mend relations with our European allies, and calm some of the world's fears. His fiscal policy is not based on creating huge budget deficits to starve social programs, and he endorses a "manhattan project" effort to develop sustainable energy sources.

And let's remember, war and empire are not the only issues in this election. Can anyone here make the case that Kerry is identical to Bush on issues of the environment, taxation, health care, education, the separation of church & state, and Constitutional rights?

Two alternatives, and one choice:

The next president will be either John Kerry or GW Bush.

Our only choice is to elect John Kerry in 2004, then continue the struggle for an American democracy that serves its people and promotes peace, justice, and a sustainable civilization on this planet which belongs to all its inhabitants.

If the beast of imperialism is to be slain, it is up to us to do it in a way that minimizes the destruction to ourselves and others. We have to be practical, we have to be persistent, we have to be persuasive, and we absolutely have to get rid of George W. Bush.

[Rose Siding]

53. More on the Progressive Policy Institute

Pilger compares PPI to PNAC. Let's see if that's fair. This is more recent that the document mentioned by Pilger, but it's still rather ominous.

snip>
Today America is threatened once again. Our country needs a new generation of Democratic leaders to step forward and provide the same caliber of leadership as their 20th century predecessors.

Two years ago, terrorists declared war on America by killing thousands of innocent civilians. But America was not the only target: The September 11 hijackers acted in the name of a hateful ideology inimical to the cause of liberty everywhere. Like the Cold War, the struggle we face today is likely to last not years, but decades. Once again the United States must rally the forces of freedom and democracy around the world to defeat this new menace and build a better world

The 21st century has brought a new set of threats whose origins are different but whose consequences are potentially as dangerous as the totalitarian challenges of the last century. We were fortunate that our terrorist enemies did not yet have the capacity to inflict catastrophic harm on us with weapons of mass destruction. Preventing a deadly fusion of terrorism and rogue states on the one hand and mass destruction weapons on the other is one of the paramount challenges of our time.

In times of danger, Americans put aside partisanship and unite in the defense of our country. That is why, as Democrats, we supported the Bush administration's toppling of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. We also backed the goal of ousting Saddam Hussein's malignant regime in Iraq, because the previous policy of containment was failing, because Saddam posed a grave danger to America as well as his own brutalized people, and because his blatant defiance of more than a decade's worth of United Nations Security Council resolutions was undermining both collective security and international law. We believed then, and we believe now, that this threat was less imminent than the administration claimed and that the United States should have done much more to win international backing and better prepare for post-war reconstruction. Nonetheless, we are convinced that the Iraqi people, the region and the world are better off now that this barbaric dictator is gone.
snip>

While some complain that the Bush administration has been too radical in recasting
America's national security strategy, we believe it has not been ambitious or imaginative enough. We need to do more, and do it smarter and better to protect our people and help shape a safer, freer world.

Progressive internationalism occupies the vital center between the neo-imperial right and the non-interventionist left, between a view that assumes that our might always makes us right and one that assumes that because America is strong it must be wrong.

Too many on the left seem incapable of taking America's side in international disputes, reflexively oppose the use of force, and begrudge the resources required to keep our military strong

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?conten...subsecid=900020

The thrust seems to be that the only trouble with Bush is that he didn't draw the rest of the world into our war. This is from Oct '03 and doesn't mention any problem with lies about WMD.

In the conclusion on the PDF version, Democrat's tradition of "muscular internationalism" is touted. Do these guys -and yes, the 15 authors listed are all male, mainline testosterone or what?

Other fun facts:

Al From is the Chair

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAr...5&contentID=896


Progressive Policy Institute Awards U.S. Nuclear Power Plants Sole “A” in Homeland Security Report Card

http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=3&catid=1090

k-ching, k-ching. Check the donors because nuke plant security has been breached in test raids, fly-over bans were cancelled, and some security is out-sourced to unregulated firms.

[GabysPoppy]

54. No difference?

Then there is no difference between Brittany Spears and Grandma Moses.

Any wonder this first appeared in that roll of toilet paper called Counterpunch?

You can hide shit behind any potted flower plant you like but in fifteen minutes you still smell shit.

[jpgray]

55. Pilger said Dean was the only antiwar candidate. Is he right?

Since he isn't, stop wasting my time with a guy who can't be bothered to even give a superficial look to the field of candidates.

[fedsron2us]

56. Pilger is simply anti American

He is going to bad mouth the next President of the USA whoever wins in November. To be honest I have never really liked Pilger as a journalist. I suspect he is one of those defeatists who whines about the injustices of the world but is not prepared to engage fully in the political process to try to stop them. This has preserved the purity of his views in the eyes of many on the liberal left. Unfortunately, it has done sod all to help the oppressed.

[saltpoint]

58. Yes. A strong case could be made for invocation of --

-- the Sedition Act.

[MasonJar]

57. I don't intend to read all of these comments again so I am not sure

if any have been added in the last two hours. However, I must comment on the main thesis of this post. There is no way that Bush and Kerry are in any way alike. One is very smart, the other very dumb. One gets the highest rating of all Senators for voting for the people and the environment. One has taken away the rights of the people and demolished the environment. One works with the world, to end pollution (through extensive personal work on the Kyoto Treaty) and to help the world's poor and stricken; the other is a hero to the corporate jackals who are raping the people and the environment. One has a record of service to the country; the other is a dry drunk, who spent the war in bars. Do I need to continue because I could very easily. I despise seeing these posts which send nothingness to the reader. GWB could easily spell the end of the world in another term, literally. This is too serious an election for all of us to put up with misplaced allegiances at DU.

[saltpoint]

59. MasonJar, I said the word 'YES' to every syllable of --

-- your post.

Bingo City.

[fedsron2us]

60. Pilger regarded Nelson Mandela as 'compromised'

when he became President of South Africa.

This guy seems to regard any sort of real political engagement as immoral. It makes it difficult to take him seriously.

The attached review of his book 'Hidden Agendas' by one of his fellow school pupils gives some insight into the mind of the man.

http://www.shootthemessenger.com.au/u_sep_98/literat/hidden.htm