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THE NEW YORKER: Ask the Iraqis

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:23 PM
Original message
THE NEW YORKER: Ask the Iraqis
While various presidential candidates put forward their plans for staying in Iraq or what pace to pull out, most are ignoring the opinion of the Iraqis themselves, even though it’s their future that is at stake—and even though the creation of a democratic republic, one in which the Iraqis command their own destiny, has been a stated goal of the war.

A sad footnote to this story. I have started several blogs with varying degrees of success, but the one that has gotten the least hits is called "What Iraqis Want" where I post stories about polls of Iraqis.

http://whatiraqiswant.blogspot.com

More people have visited my site on Fred Thompson being confused with Gopher on LOVE BOAT in a month than a couple of years of the Iraqi one being up.

We just don't give a shit.


Ask the Iraqis
by Lawrence Wright October 22, 2007

In the upcoming Presidential primaries, Americans will have the chance to choose among candidates who propose immediate withdrawal from Iraq (Richardson), rapid drawdowns (Edwards and Obama), open-ended commitment to the war (Giuliani, Romney, McCain), or a resigned middle ground, notably Hillary Clinton, who acknowledges that the occupation will likely endure well into the next Presidential term no matter which party occupies the White House.

The Iraqi people have no such choice, even though it’s their future that is at stake—and even though the creation of a democratic republic, one in which the Iraqis command their own destiny, has been a stated goal of the war. According to President Bush, American troops will leave whenever the Iraqis ask us to. “It’s their government’s choice,” he has said. “If they were to say, leave, we would leave.” But while the Iraqi government is divided and uncertain about the presence of occupying forces, the will of the Iraqi people has been clear from the beginning: they want the troops withdrawn.

As early as August of 2003, five months after the invasion, a Zogby poll found that two-thirds of Iraqis wanted the U.S. and British forces to leave the country within a year, and more than half said that the Iraqis should be left alone to set up their own government. Two years later, as Iraqis were about to vote in their first democratic election, two-thirds wanted the Coalition troops out either immediately or as soon as the new government was established. (The model that Iraqis most admired was that of the United Arab Emirates, a loose federation of seven tribal states, each overseen by a prince, and ruled by a president who is, essentially, a king.) In 2006, when the Iraqi government was in place, a poll by the University of Maryland found that seventy-one per cent of Iraqis wanted their government to ask the Americans to leave within a year; an even higher number doubted that the U.S. would comply with the request.

A poll released last month (by ABC News, the BBC, and the Japanese broadcaster NHK), half a year after the surge in American forces, found that nearly half of Iraqis favored an immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces, while thirty-four per cent of Iraqis, most of them Kurds, said that the U.S. should remain “until security is restored.” Among Shiites, forty-four per cent favored immediate withdrawal, and among Sunnis the figure reached seventy-two per cent—substantial increases in both cases. More Iraqis than ever—fifty-seven per cent—say that violence against American forces is acceptable, diminishing the prospect of order being restored as long as the occupation continues.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2007/10/22/071022taco_talk_wright">FULL TEXT
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. the lack of response or even views sadly proves my point
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I give a shit...
Edited on Fri Oct-26-07 11:05 AM by Baby Snooks
Some do give a shit. But reality is reality. And the reality is the Iraqi people are as helpless as the American people. They have been pitted against each other by design. As have we. Divide and conquer. And we have been conquered. Their politicians debate and engage in discourse. But in the end, their politicians concede to the king. As do ours.
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The Roux Comes First Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. I Too Am Surprised You Have Had so Little Response
Just reading this for first time.

Frustration of course abounds on so many aspects of this. Perhaps it is indeed that feeling of powerlessness both here and in Iraq. That can be an excuse for dangerous passivity.

But your post is helpful in reminding us just how absurd it is that after fomenting an illegal unprovoked invasion the executive bush pestilence then has the gall to dictate a "temporary" form of government that is almost certainly strange beyond imagining and probably distasteful to most Iraqis. To top it off, their claims that we will leave "when their government asks us to" is right out of the same bag of conjuror's tricks. Their "government"? Is that to work on the model of non-representative undemocratic government more-and-more conspicuous here (i.e., no need for government to even pretend to represent the will of the people)? Or the idealized vision we pretend for PR purposes? Or some other fiction?
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Briar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. The sad truth is
most Americans care only about the lives of American soldiers (and Brits care only about British soldiers). It takes an act of imagination to grasp the humanity of another person. It is much easier to imagine Iraqis as "other", as "the enemy". Secretly, I suspect far too many westerners rejoice in their suffering, just as far too many rejoice in capital punishment and the brutal abuse of prisoners in their own country, demonised as "other" by the Law and Order and the Gun (self defence) lobby. Revenge is a dish which heads the menu in most people's heads. I don't know how you overcome this brute instinct to dehumanise other people. I know, however, that our governments and their client media make no real effort to do so.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's the mindset of American exceptionalism -- WE are the deciders
WE decide what's best for foreign cultures in foreign lands, regardless of how ignorant we really are of the realities there.

WE have the right to invade and occupy sovereign nations if there is a perceived threat, legitimate or bogus.

WE (or at least some of us) convince ourselves we are bestowing democracy on those we invade, but we really don't have much of a clue about actually empowering those people to make their own decisions.


(recommended)
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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. ummmm... Biden's plan? Hello?
This guy "conveniently" ignores Biden's federalism plan which got 75 votes in the senate and which calls for the iraqis to adhere to their constitution. I have no idea how a writer for a prominent intellectual magazine could leave this out of his article. UGH Why do people constanty ignore the one person who IS making sense?
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The article says that the plan most favored is one that's based on the UAE -
tribal states, with a federal government to oversee. That's what Biden's proposal is.

What makes me scream is, after his amendment passed in the Senate, I thought -- hoo boy! Here we go! But NOTHING has been done yet - there have been absolutely no changes to what's been going on for the past few years.

What the fuck good does it do if something like this gets passed - overwhelmingly, may I add - then it disappears through the cracks? It seems to have been totally forgotten as you point out in this writer's neglecting to mention it.

I'm so tired of hearing "we have to DO something" then when a plan is approved - nobody DOES anything to implement it.





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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. yeah, it's like this idiot reporter is taking pains to ignore Biden's leadership... hmmm...
WTF?!!!!
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's just fallen off the radar. Like it never happened. nt
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Biden has moved in the right direction on the war, but that piece of shit wasn't
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. that's just sad. The purpose of breaking up the country is to make it easier to push around
poll after poll has shown the Iraqis DON'T want the country divided, and the sectarian violence is being fanned by foreign fighters principally from Saudi.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. The Iraqis got together to condemn Biden's bill--who is he to tell them to divide their country?
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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. You are sadly misinformed:
The President of Iraq endorsed the plan. One of the main shiite leaders (not Al Sadr... the other one) also endorsed it. Maliki retracted his initial condemnation. You see, Biden's Bill does not seek to impose, but already suggests what is in the Iraqi constitution, ND MORE ND MORE PEOPLE ARE COMING AROUND OT SUPPORT IT... however, the bushies and media spun it so as to seem as if the US was chopping up the country for its own interests, so many iraqis are not getting the right information about the bill that was passed, hence the initial backlash. There are also some who rejected it becuse they want to control the entire country, so democracy wouldnt work for them anyway. What would your alternative be?

I suggest you do more homework, although you seem like someone who will never change their mind.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. If Biden had courage, he'd ask why Bush isn't stopping Saudis from infiltrating Iraq since more
foreign fighters come into the country from there than anywhere else.

At best, Biden is trying to prove to the oil companies that he will be a better steward of their interests than Bush.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. a kick, since the recommendation time has elapsed (n/t)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. And another.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. It is surreal-----both a majority of Iraqi and US citizens want OUT: yet the KILLING continuew!
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