Cuban doctors restore sight of Che's killer

[kskiska]

Source: The Guardian

The Bolivian soldier who executed Che Guevara 40 years ago has had his sight restored by Cuban doctors, turning him into an unlikely advertisement for the revolutionary's ideals.

Mario Teran entered history as the young army sergeant who was chosen to execute the captured guerrilla on October 9 1967, an act which marked him as a villain to those who revered Che. Almost four decades later the ageing, retired executioner had his cataracts removed by a Cuban-run medical programme which showcases the benefits of the island's socialist revolution.

The ironic epilogue to Mr Teran's role in a great 20th century drama was first revealed last year when his son wrote a letter to a Bolivian newspaper, El Deber, to thank the doctors. Few people noticed, however, until last weekend when Cuba's communist authorities trumpeted the news as a propaganda coup on the eve of the anniversary of Che's death.

"Four decades after Mario Teran attempted to destroy a dream and an idea, Che returns to win yet another battle," said Granma, the Communist party's official newspaper. "Now an old man, he can once again appreciate the colours of the sky and the forest, enjoy the smiles of his grandchildren and watch football games."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2181484,00.html

[pitohui]

1. these cuban doctors do much good

i doubt they cared about his role in his youth, where i doubt he was exactly given any choice as a soldier in any case, they cared that he had cataracts on his eyes

the cubans also seem to send a surprising number of doctors to help out in africa, i know a man named after the cuban doctor who delivered him

[othermeans]

2. I like the fact that they are giving poor and underprivileged Americans a free medical education

Cuba graduates U.S. doctors

"Eight American students have graduated from a Cuban medical school after six years of free tuition, giving a fresh boost to the reputation of the communist government's healthcare system."

http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?s=774564cf338c4cee0e9f1b9dd8537498&showtopic=27391&pid=41287&st=0&#entry41287

[Judi Lynn]

3. The attempt the author made to highlight the fact the Cuban government

used this event as a propaganda moment loses some of its impact when you realize they have known about this for probably a year and it never was mentioned earlier.

I think it's a very fair point to make to the population that their progress in medical treatment has made it possible to successfully treat a man from Bolivia who assassinated their great national hero. Don't forget, it wasn't his idea, since the U.S. forces were part of the men who tracked him down, and had their pictures taken with him, both after being wounded, and lying as a dead guy on a table.

A Cuban "exile," Felix Rodriguez, friend of _{George H. W. Bush,} took the watch given to Che Guevara by his father upon graduation from medical school, off his wrist, and keeps it to this day, gladly showing it to anyone who gives a huff.







He's the drunk lying on the stage, sitting beside Porter Goss
amid some of his C.I.A. friends, in a nightclub in Mexico City.

[Riktor]

6. It wasn't our idea, either

The CIA attache in Bolivia fought furiously to have Che extradited to the United States for questioning, but the Agency gave into Bolivian demands for his execution. Of course, knowing Che's character, he wouldn't have told them anything of note.

Frankly, I find Fidel's (now, by extension, Raul's) game utterly hilarious. Fidel forced Che out of Cuba after he criticized the USSR and proposed closer relations with Maoist China, knowing full well Che wouldn't make it back from Bolivia. Now he uses the image of the man he, for all intents and purposes, killed as a rallying point for his people. The Big Lie at work.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Fascinating. Allow me to post information from declassified documents.

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 5
The Death of Che Guevara: Declassified

by Peter Kornbluh

On October 9th, 1967, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was put to death by Bolivian soldiers, trained, equipped and guided by U.S. Green Beret and CIA operatives. His execution remains a historic and controversial event; and thirty years later, the circumstances of his guerrilla foray into Bolivia, his capture, killing, and burial are still the subject of intense public interest and discussion around the world.

As part of the thirtieth anniversary of the death of Che Guevara, the National Security Archive's Cuba Documentation Project is posting a selection of key CIA, State Department, and Pentagon documentation relating to Guevara and his death. This electronic documents book is compiled from declassified records obtained by the National Security Archive, and by authors of two new books on Guevara: Jorge Castañeda's Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (Knopf), and Henry Butterfield Ryan's The Fall of Che Guevara (Oxford University Press). The selected documents, presented in order of the events they depict, provide only a partial picture of U.S. intelligence and military assessments, reports and extensive operations to track and "destroy" Che Guevara's guerrillas in Bolivia; thousands of CIA and military records on Guevara remain classified. But they do offer significant and valuable information on the high-level U.S. interest in tracking his revolutionary activities, and U.S. and Bolivian actions leading up to his death.
(snip/...)

CIA Debriefing of Félix Rodríguez, June 3, 1975 When Che Guevara was executed in La Higuera, one CIA official was present--a Cuban-American operative named Félix Rodríguez. Rodríguez, who used the codename "Félix Ramos" in Bolivia and posed as a Bolivian military officer, was secretly debriefed on his role by the CIA's office of the Inspector General in June, 1975. (At the time the CIA was the focus of a major Congressional investigation into its assassination operations against foreign leaders.) In this debriefing--discovered in a declassified file marked 'Félix Rodríguez' by journalist David Corn--Rodríguez recounts the details of his mission to Bolivia where the CIA sent him, and another Cuban-American agent, Gustavo Villoldo, to assist the capture of Guevara and destruction of his guerrilla band. Rodríguez and Villoldo became part of a CIA task force in Bolivia that included the case officer for the operation, "Jim", another Cuban American, Mario Osiris Riveron, and two agents in charge of communications in Santa Clara. Rodríguez emerged as the most important member of the group; after a lengthy interrogation of one captured guerrilla, he was instrumental in focusing the efforts to the 2nd Ranger Battalion focus on the Villagrande region where he believed Guevara's rebels were operating. Although he apparently was under CIA instructions to "do everything possible to keep him alive," Rodríguez transmitted the order to execute Guevara from the Bolivian High Command to the soldiers at La Higueras--he also directed them not to shoot Guevara in the face so that his wounds would appear to be combat-related--and personally informed Che that he would be killed. After the execution, Rodríguez took Che's Rolex watch, often proudly showing it to reporters during the ensuing years.

State Department Cable, Official Confirmation of Death of Che Guevara, October 18, 1967: Ten days after his capture, U.S. Ambassador to Bolivia, Douglas Henderson, transmitted confirmation of Guevara's death to Washington. The evidence included autopsy reports, and fingerprint analysis conducted by Argentine police officials on Che's amputated hands. (Che's hands were cut off to provide proof that he was actually dead; under the supervision of CIA agent Gustavo Villoldo, his body was then secretly buried by at a desolate airstrip at Villagrande where it was only discovered in June 1997.) The various death documents, notes Ambassador Henderson, leave "unsaid the time of death"--"an attempt to bridge the difference between a series of earlier divergent statements from Armed Forces sources, ranging from assertions that he died during or shortly after battle to those suggesting he survived at least twenty-four hours."

Southern Command, Activities of the 2nd Ranger Battalion and Death of Che Guevara: The U.S. Special Forces Group, which trained the Bolivan military units that captured Che Guevara, conducted an extensive debriefing of members of the 2nd Ranger Battalion. This report, based on interviews by a member of the U.S. Mobile Training Team in Bolivia with key Bolivian commanders, documents the military movements, and engagement with Che Guevara's guerrilla band. The sources also provide key details and descriptions of his capture, interrogation and execution, although it makes no mention of the CIA official, Félix Rodríguez, who was present. Guevara's last words to the soldier who shot him are reported as: "Know this now, you are killing a man."
(snip)

1:30 p.m.: Che’s final battle commences in Quebrada del Yuro. Simon Cuba (Willy) Sarabia, a Bolivian miner, leads the rebel group. Che is behind him and is shot in the leg several times. Sarabia picks up Che and tries to carry him away from the line of fire. The firing starts again and Che’s beret is knocked off. Sarabia sits Che on the ground so he can return the fire. Encircled at less than ten yards distance, the Rangers concentrate their fire on him, riddling him with bullets. Che attempts to keep firing, but cannot keep his gun up with only one arm. He is hit again on his right leg, his gun is knocked out of his hand and his right forearm is pierced. As soldiers approach Che he shouts, "Do not shoot! I am Che Guevara and worth more to you alive than dead." The battle ends at approximately 3:30 p.m. Che is taken prisoner. (Rojo, 219; James, 14)

Other sources claim that Sarabia is captured alive and at about 4 p.m. he and Che are brought before Captain Prado. Captain Prado orders his radio operator to signal the divisional headquarters in Vallegrande informing them that Che is captured. The coded message sent is "Hello Saturno, we have Papá !" Saturno is the code for Colonel Joaquin Zenteno, commandant of the Eighth Bolivian Army Division, and Papá is code for Che. In disbelief, Colonel Zenteno asks Capt. Prado to confirm the message. With confirmation, "general euphoria" erupts among the divisional headquarters staff. Colonel Zenteno radios Capt. Prado and tells him to immediately transfer Che and any other prisoners to La Higuera. (Harris, 127)

In Vallegrande, Félix Rodríguez receives the message over the radio: "Papá cansado," which means "Dad is tired." Papá is the code for foreigner, implying Che. Tired signifies captured or wounded. (Rodríguez:1, 185)

Stretched out on a blanket, Che is carried by four soldiers to La Higuera, seven kilometers away. Sarabia is forced to walk behind with his hands tied against his back. Just after dark the group arrives in La Higuera and both Che and Sarabia are put into the one-room schoolhouse. Later that night, five more guerrillas are brought in. (Harris, 127)

Official army dispatches falsely report that Che is killed in the clash in southeastern Bolivia, and other official reports confirm the killing of Che and state that the Bolivian army has his body. However, the army high command does not confirm this report. (NYT 10/10/67)

OCTOBER 9, 1967: Walt Rostow sends a memorandum to the President with tentative information that the Bolivians have captured Che Guevara. The Bolivian unit engaged in the operation was the one that had been trained by the U.S. (Rostow 10/9/67)

OCTOBER 9, 1967: 6:15 a.m.: Félix Rodríguez arrives by helicopter in La Higuera, along with Colonel Joaquín Zenteno Anaya. Rodríguez brings a powerful portable field radio and a camera with a special four-footed stand used to photograph documents. He quietly observes the scene in the schoolhouse, and records what he sees, finding the situation "gruesome" with Che lying in dirt, his arms tied behind his back and his feet bound together, next to the bodies of his friends. He looks "like a piece of trash" with matted hair, torn clothes, and wearing only pieces of leather on his feet for shoes. In one interview, Rodríguez states that, " I had mixed emotions when I first arrived there. Here was the man who had assassinated many of my countrymen. And nevertheless, when I saw him, the way he looked....I felt really sorry for him." (Rodríguez:2)

Rodríguez sets up his radio and transmits a coded message to the CIA station in either Peru or Brazil to be retransmitted to Langley headquarters. Rodríguez also starts to photograph Che’s diary and other captured documents. Later, Rodríguez spends time talking with Che and takes a picture with him. The photos that Rodríguez takes are preserved by the CIA. (Anderson, 793; Rodríguez:1, 193)

10 am: The Bolivian officers are faced with the question of what to do with Che. The possibility of prosecuting him is ruled out because a trial would focus world attention on him and could generate sympathetic propaganda for Che and for Cuba. It is concluded that Che must be executed immediately, but it is agreed upon that the official story will be that he died from wounds received in battle. Félix Rodríguez receives a call from Vallegrande and is ordered by the Superior Command to conduct Operation Five Hundred and Six Hundred. Five hundred is the Bolivian code for Che and six hundred is the order to kill him. Rodríguez informs Colonel Zenteno of the order, but also tells him that the U.S. government has instructed him to keep Che alive at all costs. The CIA and the U.S. government have arranged helicopters and airplanes to take Che to Panama for interrogation. However, Colonel Zenteno says he must obey his own orders and Rodríguez decides, "to let history take its course," and to leave the matter in the hands of the Bolivians. (Anderson, 795; Harris 128, 129; Rodríguez:1, 193; Rodríguez:2)

Rodríguez realizes that he cannot stall any longer when a school teacher informs him that she has heard a news report on Che’s death on her radio. Rodríguez enters the schoolhouse to tell Che of the orders from the Bolivian high command. Che understands and says, "It is better like this ... I never should have been captured alive." Che gives Rodríguez a message for his wife and for Fidel, they embrace and Rodríguez leaves the room. (Rodríguez:2; Anderson, 796)
(snip/...)

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html

[eridani]

4. K&R n/t

[lvx35]

5. Wow, that is a massive PR victory.

Why did he need to get the medical aid in Cuba? Dind't Bolivia have free health care???? :)

[TheProf]

8. Looks like Cuban Communists.....

are at least making one small attempt to redeem themselves after the hell they put the Cuban people through. Still far too little, far too late.

[Judi Lynn]

9. It would be helpful for DU readers if you posted information on this hell inflicted on the Cuban

people who rebelled against the U.S. supported, blood-thirsty, utterly corrupt, iron-handed, murderous Fulgencio Batista, and his reign of terror, heartily embraced by the oligarchy which fled to Miami in fear of retaliation as soon as possible, once the revolution became realized.



El Quijote de la Farola
Havana, 1959

Just go ahead and post that information on what hell has befallen the people of Cuba due to their revolution.

In the meantime, I will post a thumbnail sketch of Fulgencio Batista:

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba
Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of "communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip/)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

[TheProf]

13. Fulgencio Batista, o yes, let's skip 45 years of Communist abuses and go back to Batista.

Castro overthrowing Fulgencio Batista was, to put it briefly, in a nutshell, very similiar to one gangster knocking off another for control. The one difference being Castro was worse than a gangster in that he duped many of his followers and the Cuban people (as well as many in the US who wanted to see Batista overthrown and replaced) into beleiving that he was going to create some utopian paradise and instead, very consciously and deliberately installed an even greater tyranny.

You want to know about the Hell he put Cuba through? Are you really that ignorant or do you just like to insult people's intelligence? The abuses of the Castro regime have been very well documented many times over, although not in their entirety. There are many still to be uncovered. Cubans are not allowed to speak or communicate with complete freedom, when they do the full story of the torture, executions, repression of religious freedom, repression of free speech, and the tyrannically imposed economic backwardness of the last 45+ years will come to full light.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Feel free to share some of those documented abuses with DU'ers.

Don't forget to include references to the 45+ year old economic embargo on Cuba, due to be condemned for the 16th straight year in a row this month or in November in the General Assembly by almost all the members, with the expected exceptions of the Marshall Islands, Palau, and Israel voting with the U.S.

[TheProf]

19. Most DUers seem very good at researching things themselves aren't they?

The information is very readily available on the internet, I dont see how someone can miss it. Do DUers really want me to SPAM THE THREAD WITH ARTICLES LIKE YOU DO? That would be way too easy wouldnt it? It really does suggest you didnt put much thought into the matters or know very much personally about the topic, you just like to quickly regurgitate information. Unfortunate since there are 1 billion + people who have suffered under one slight variation or another of dictatorial Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Communist ideology. Please spare the rest of us you tired, antiquated, long ago debunked, bull.

[Judi Lynn]

20. No one needs to take your assertions at face value. Stir yourself and find those links.

Not one of us normally make claims, sweeping remarks without ever expecting someone to ask us to back up our statements.

Taking some shots at me doesn't get you anywhere. Attacking DU'ers is seriously unwelcomed here. You should refer to the rules if you are unclear about it.

Either provide references to back up your claims or don't make the claims. It's not our responsibility to go searching for evidence to support YOUR claims. You know that.

[TheProf]

21. If the topic weren't so serious and sad.....

Your replies would be too funny. The spread and fight against Communism was one of the most widespread occurrences of the 20th Century spanning over 80 years and you want me to just throw up some links, like it just happened yesterday. People here are politically aware (I am not insulting the majority of DUers, so put the spin to rest) aren't they? Knowledge of major events of the 20th century should readily be available in their minds shouldn't it? (or do we have here just a bunch of College kids brainwashed by some leftover Marxist college professors?) Only you and your friends try to insult people's intelligence with antiquated propaganda techniques.

[Judi Lynn]

22. Feel free to post actual information dealing with the facts you insist are real. n/t

[Gravel2008]

80. Ah yes, one can always count on you and your ilk spamming any and all Cuban threads

As predictable as it is repetitive. Why don't you just move there? It is Paradise after all! Just leave already. Toodeloo! :hi:

[ret5hd]

16. Why don't you just end our ignorance NOW, instead of making us wait!

Please, enlighten us! Lift us from our ignorance!

:rofl:

[Maribelle]

24. Had Cubans not been going through hell under Batista there would have been no revolution.

Recorded history clearly indicates the struggles of those living in abject poverty throughout Latin American, the racist bigotry of the Batista lap dancers, the deep corruption in the once-beautiful carib land, were hushed by the rich and powerful back then.

[BornagainDUer]

50. More shit from a shithead!

[Judi Lynn]

10. How about something a little closer to the original subject, original post?

Cuban Healthcare
Wikipedia:

Following the Revolution, the new Cuban government asserted that universal healthcare was to become a priority of state planning. In 1960 revolutionary and physician Che Guevara outlined his aims for the future of Cuban healthcare in an essay entitled "On Revolutionary Medicine", stating: "The work that today is entrusted to the Ministry of Health and similar organizations is to provide public health services for the greatest possible number of persons, institute a program of preventive medicine, and orient the public to the performance of hygienic practices."<9> These aims were hampered almost immediately by an exodus of almost half of Cuba’s physicians to the United States, leaving the country with only 3,000 doctors and 16 professors in University of Havana’s medical college.<10> Beginning in 1960, the Ministry of Public Health began a program of nationalization and regionalization of medical services.<10>

In 1976, Cuba's healthcare program was enshrined in Article 50 of the revised Cuban constitution which states "Everyone has the right to health protection and care. The state guarantees this right by providing free medical and hospital care by means of the installations of the rural medical service network, polyclinics, hospitals, preventative and specialized treatment centers; by providing free dental care; by promoting the health publicity campaigns, health education, regular medical examinations, general vaccinations and other measures to prevent the outbreak of disease. All the population cooperates in these activities and plans through the social and mass organizations."<11>

Cuba's doctor to patient ratio grew significantly in the latter half of the 20th century, from 9.2 doctors per 10,000 inhabitants in 1958, to 58.2 per 10,000 in 1999.<12> In the 1960s the government implemented a program of almost universal vaccinations. This helped eradicate many contagious diseases including polio and rubella, though some diseases increased during the period of economic hardship of the 1990s, such as tuberculosis, hepatitis and chicken pox. Other campaigns included a program to reduce the infant mortality rate in 1970 directed at maternal and prenatal care.<12>

In 2007, Cuba announced that it has undertaken computerising and creating national networks in Blood Banks, Nephrology and Medical Images. Cuba is the second country in the world with such a product, only preceded by France. Cuba is preparing a Computerised Health Register, Hospital Management System, Primary Health Care, Academic Affairs, Medical Genetic Projects, Neurosciences, and Educational Software. The aim is to maintain quality health service free for the Cuban people, increase exchange among experts and boost research-development projects. An important link in wiring process is to guarantee access to Cuba's Data Transmission Network and Health Website (INFOMED) to all units and workers of the national health system. <3>
(snip/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Cuba

[TheProf]

14. Since you are on the topic of Cuban healthcare...

.... why don't you mention that Castro when ill himself had to rely on doctors from Spain to treat him. Ironic he looks for help from the very type of Western Liberal Democracy that backward Communists like him enjoy overthrowing (the fact that Batista was a dictator doesn't really matter much to a hardcore Communist like Castro, the intent is too spread Communist ideology as far and wide as possible).

[ret5hd]

17. Why don't you mention that the embargo has made it impossible...

for Cuba to purchase the technology that was available in Spain? Why would the U.S. want to keep healthcare from Cubans?

[TheProf]

23. I personally believe that lifting the embargo would be a very good thing ..

...and keeping it in place is very bad policy since the fall of the Soviet Union. The more you open up Cuba, the more Cubans interact with American and Cuban-American businessman, the more they will see the stark differences between the backwardness Communism has created for them and the potential that lies ahead with greater political and economic freedom. They may very well soon after tasting the difference begin taking to the streets and demand their freedom. Castro and his brother could very well end up hanging at the end of a noose.

[ret5hd]

25. You can't stay on topic to save your life!

You brought up the fact that Castro went to Spain, as if Castro and not the embargo were to blame for the lack of the most modern medical devices/facilities.

[TheProf]

27. The embargo covers US citizens and US Businesses.......

.... from trading with Cuba, not Europe, so your original point makes no sense. There is plenty of equipment available from the rest of the world.

You are the one dealing in symptoms and not causes, constantly shifting the blame for Cuba's ills from one place to another. They dont have the equipment they need because of a backward ideology. 45 years of totalitarian rule by the Castro-led Communist regime is the root cause of all the problems. If Cuba had a modern liberal democracy, the influx of capital and investment would greatly improve the Cuban peoples standard of living and make Cuba the jewel of the Carribean. It can still offer free health care to citizens after it democratizes. A vibrant economy and free health care aren't mutually exclusive. Healthcare doesn't have to come at the expense of political freedom, as the Communists would have you believe.

Even if it needed something specifically from the U.S., the Communist regime is so inept it can't smuggle in the small amount of equipment needed to save it's dear leader? How can it claim to have the expertise to run a country then ( it clearly doesn't). One of the root arguments of Communism during the cold war was that Communist regimes would support each other and eventually crush the West. Thats where Castro firmly placed his bets and now you want to whine and bitch and place all the blame on the U.S.? Why doesn't he reach out to a fellow Marxist dictator from another supposed worker's paradise? Maybe Kim Jong Il can help.

(Like I said before in #23 I agree with lifting the embargo for the sake of the Cuban people, but Castro is not the one with the moral authority to level blame at the U.S. If he wont step down to help solve the problem he created, there is only one other way out, easier for him that it be of natural causes then what he really deserves.)

[ret5hd]

28. You ignore the fact that the embargo also applies to companies doing business w/ Cuba...

Which effectively extends the embargo to the entire world.

[Mika]

29. Ignorance is bliss.

[TheProf]

30. The embargo applies.....

...... to US businesses and their foreign subsidiaries, which means Canadian, European, Latin American, etc based companies (of which there are plenty) all do not have a problem. Why the constant pathetic attempts to always defend Castro and shift all blame to the U.S.?

[w4rma]

31. So, your primary atrocity committed since the Batista regime was overthrown is that Castro flew to

Spain for some specialized medical care. I understand, now.

[TheProf]

32. I see you are not following the thread very well w4rma...

.... thats usually what happens when people just spam it with one article after another. It's your choice to belittle the suffering of Cuba under Castro with that desperate remark. Other people know the history, they will see straight through it. Keep looking for ways to justify your Che/Castro worship.

If I really have to dig up the links and post the articles on the abuses of Cuba's Communist regime because you really don't have a clue, then this discussion is a little way to over your head.

[w4rma]

33. If you can't research your rumors and site sources then the conversation is over *your* head. (nt)

[Judi Lynn]

35. The good thing about information posters provide is that it is often new material to people who read

it, and it is up to them to think about it, then to take the opportunity of looking for more information which will either confirm or expose it as false. It is often a stepping stone to the reader's acquiring a whole lot MORE information on the subject on his/her own.

It surely worked that way for me during the early days of Elián Gonzalez' unfortunate seizure by his drunken great uncle in Miami, when I had absolutely NO knowledge whatsoever of Cuba, and started reading what posters had written on both sides. It didn't take long at all for me, after I started looking for background, to see who was telling the truth when I happened across ordinary Americans discussing it at the old CNN US/Cuba relations message board, as it was infested by Miami Cuban "exiles" and their offspring.

One thing readers can always count on is that if someone attends a conversation attacking and flinging labels and insults at the others is that he probably doesn't have the material he needs to support his claims. The hostility toward others, the attacks, the continual efforts to change and avoid a subject, while continuing to attack people personally, is a dead giveaway that something is wrong.

The very best thing people can do is to seek more information independently. You should encourage it, if you believe what they learn will support your claims, but you should give evidence to support your claims yourself FIRST.

Mocking, ridiculing people who DO go to the trouble to locate material for others to evaluate is probably not well considered.

[TheProf]

47. There is no attempt to avoid, evade, change the subject. At all. NONE.

You are simply describing yourself. The subject is Castro and his totalitarian regime and no amount of rhetorical gymnastics or obscufication is going to change the fact that Castro was and still is a dictator. NONE. It is such a broadly known and objectively verified fact by so many observers from all walks of life and many different countries that to so vehemently, obnoxiously and recklessly deny it does rightly bring into question the character, credibility and motives of those who state otherwise (that Castro and his cronies are not a dictatorial regime).

Your feeble propaganda attempts can only convince the very young, gullible or truly uniformed. It is similiar to walking down the street, hearing someone say George Bush is America's worst president ever and then turning around and asking him for proof in a few newspaper articles, or links on the internet. As of Oct 2007 it is such a broadly and widely accepted fact by even those who voted for him that to ask why simply makes you look like a fool.

What you are practicing here is a very, very old style of Marxist/Communist type propaganda which has been debunked many times in the past 40 years. I could post links, but I am sure you will be the one who will constantly attack the messenger, or the organization, attaching to them some convenient label like, they must be rich miami cuban exiles, cia paid operatives, big corporate interests, right wing groups when they are really center or left, etc. I know this drill and your type and have seen it all before. You are a mouthpiece for the regime and the only thing you will accept as truth is what comes from the regime.

Having said that, I may at some point later in the day post some links for the casual surfer who may happen to run across this thread at later points in time. I personally however am not a big fan of the type of spamming that goes on in these threads. When I write, I write from personal knowledge, memory, and what others have personally shared with me. Everything else is academic.

[Judi Lynn]

54. Looking forward to reading your links you intend to add for the casual surfer.

Some visual entertainment to ponder while we're waiting.

[TheProf]

66. Is that a shark waiting for the casual surfer?

Are you that arrogant that you would telegraph your intent to visciously attack anyone who is just browsing for information? That almost seems like a message you are sending to other DUers. This isn't Cuba, no one is scared of your Pro-Communist huffing and puffing.

[Judi Lynn]

70. STILL looking forward to reading your links you intend to add for the casual surfer.

[Judi Lynn]

71. Try to remember the context in your previous post:

Having said that, I may at some point later in the day post some links for the casual surfer who may happen to run across this thread at later points in time. I personally however am not a big fan of the type of spamming that goes on in these threads. When I write, I write from personal knowledge, memory, and what others have personally shared with me. Everything else is academic.

"The casual surfer," as one would think would not refer to you as well as the reader of your future post bearing links and references. You can't be both the writer AND the "casual surfer" for whom you will be posting the links.

[BornagainDUer]

51. The Prof has to stay off target to save face.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Try to be a little clearer. I have no idea why he returned to Spain with the physician they called

after they got some unexpected results from the early operations.

Perhaps they didn't have the medical equipment needed. Don't know.

This material, I believe, should be helpful:

Summary Report of American Association of World Health on Impact of U.S. Embargo on Health of Cuban People

In 1989, the World Health Organization extolled Cuba's health care system as a "model for the world." Cuba, with its nutritional safety net, extensive system of family doctors and sophisticated tertiary care facilities, had achieved the highest quality of life indicators in Latin America, including an infant mortality rate 30 points below the average, on a par with the developed world.

But ten years later two studies, conducted by the American Public Health Association (APHA) and the American Association for World Health (AAWH), indicate the Cuban people, especially the children, are now facing dangerous shortages of medicines and medical supplies. Although some of the blame can be placed on the dissolution of the Soviet bloc countries and inefficiencies within Cuba, the APHA and the AAWH find that the fault lies primarily with the U.S. embargo of Cuba.

The AAWH's team of nine medical experts attributed the following Cuban health problems directly to the embargo:

1. Malnutrition -- The outright ban on the sale of American foodstuffs has contributed to serious nutritional deficits, particularly among pregnant women, leading to an increase in low birth weight babies. In addition, food shortages were linked to a devastating outbreak of neuropathy in 1993-94 affecting the tens of thousands. By one estimate daily caloric intake dropped 33 percent between 1989 and 1993.
   
   
2. Water Quality -- The embargo severely restricts Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals and spare parts for the island's water supply system, leading to serious cutbacks in supplies of safe drinking water, which in turn has become a factor in the rising incidence of morbidity and mortality rates from water borne diseases.
   
   
3. Medicines and Equipment -- Of the 1,297 medications available in Cuba in 1991, physicians now have access to only 889, and many of these are available only intermittently. Because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. companies, Cuban physicians have access to less than 50 percent of the new medicines available on the world market. Due to the direct or indirect effects of the embargo, the most routine medical supplies are in short supply or entirely absent from some Cuban clinics.
   
   
4. Medical Information -- Though information materials have been exempt from the U.S. trade embargo since 1988, the AAWH study concludes that in practice very little such information goes into Cuba or comes out of the island due to travel restrictions, currency regulations and shipping difficulties. Scientists and citizens of both countries suffer as a result. Paradoxically, the embargo harms some U.S. citizens by denying them access to the latest advances in Cuban medical research, including such products as meningitis B vaccine, cheaply produced interferon and streptokinase.

The cost of the embargo in human terms can be calculated both statistically and anecdotally:

AAWH visited a Cuban pediatric ward then on its 22nd day without the nausea-preventing drugs normally used in chemotherapy. The 35 children in the ward were vomiting an average of 28-30 times a day.

Cuban children with lymphoblastic leukemia are denied access to new life-prolonging drugs, such as oncaspar, patented by a U.S. company, that produces longer periods of remission and is less traumatic to the child patient, requiring only one sixth the number of injections. Left untreated, this type of leukemia is fatal in two to three months.

Pediatric-size needles for intravenous chemotherapy and glucose are in short supply, necessitating puncturing children's tiny veins with adult sized needles.

Surgeries dropped from 885,790 in 1990 to 536,547 in 1995, a glaring indicator of the decline in hospital resources such as most modern anesthetics and related equipment, specialized catheters, and disposable supplies.

The deterioration of Cuba's water supply has led to a rising incidence of water borne diseases such as typhoid fever, dysenteries and viral hepatitis. Mortality rates from acute diarrheal disease, for instance, increased from 2.7 per 100,000 inhabitants in 1989 to 6.7 in 1994. Children are disproportionately affected by such disorders.

The embargo is directly responsible for up to six month delays in AZT treatment for a total of 176 HIV patients in Cuba at a time when AZT was the only approved medication heralded for slowing the progress of the virus. As one AIDS professional told the AAWH, "The problem is that our patients don't have time to wait. innovation.

In general the embargo effectively bans Cuba from purchasing nearly one half of the new world class drugs on the market.
(snip/...)

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~ksinghz/cubamed/FoodMedicine.htm

[Mika]

26. What an utter fabrication.

The Cuban medical team consulted with a famous internal medicine Spanish doctor for a second opinion. He was alone on his visit to Cuba. He did no surgery. He validated the treatment/surgery given to Mr Castro by the Cuban medical team. The story was closely followed on DU.

Any more canards?

[Judi Lynn]

11. Cuban doctors help Che Guevara's killer

Cuban doctors help Che Guevara's killer
September 30, 2007 - 7:39PM

Cuban doctors volunteering in Bolivia performed a free cataract surgery for Mario Teran, the Bolivian army sergeant who killed the legendary guerilla leader Ernesto "Che" Guevara in captivity, the daily Granma newspaper reported.

"Four decades after Mario Teran attempted to destroy a dream and an idea, Che returns to win yet another battle, and continues on in the struggle," the Communist Party of Cuba's official newspaper said.

On October 9, 1967, Teran killed Guevara while he was being held prisoner and suffering from combat wounds in La Higuera, the paper recounted. It said he acted on orders from generals Rene Barrientos and Alfredo Ovando, as well as the White House and the US Central Intelligence Agency, to execute the Argentine-Cuban rebel leader.

Nearly forty years to the day later, Teran underwent eye surgery in a Santa Cruz hospital that was donated by the Cuban government and recently inaugurated by Bolivian President Evo Morales.
(snip/...)

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Cuban-doctors-help-Che-Guevaras-killer/2007/09/30/1191090937455.html

[Judi Lynn]

12. Cubans treat man who killed Che

Cubans treat man who killed Che
Last Updated: Tuesday, 2 October 2007, 11:32 GMT 12:32 UK

Cuban doctors working in Bolivia have saved the sight of the man who executed revolutionary leader Che Guevara in 1967, Cuban official media report.
Mario Teran, a Bolivian army sergeant, shot dead Che Guevara after he was captured in Bolivia's eastern lowlands.
(snip)

The operation on Mr Teran took place last year and was first revealed when his son wrote to a Bolivian newspaper to thank the Cuban doctors for restoring his father's sight.

But Cuban media took up the story at the weekend as the island prepares for commemorations to mark Che Guevara's death 40 years ago.
(snip)

Che Guevara, wounded in the fighting, was taken to a schoolhouse in the village of La Higuera on 8 October where the soldiers debated what to do with him.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7023706.stm

[Bacchus39]

34. Cuba trade

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cuba/canada-cuba-trade.html

How much trade occurs between Cuba and Canada?
Trade between Canada and Cuba totals almost $1 billion. About 22 per cent of Cuban exports go to Canada, second only to the Netherlands with about 24 per cent. Canada ranks fifth in exports to Cuba, behind Spain, Venezuela, the U.S. and China.

(A U.S. law passed in October 2000 allowing Cuba to buy U.S. food products, provided Cuba pays cash. Cuba started purchasing food more than a year later after the damage caused by Hurricane Michelle.)

What does Cuba export?
Besides cigars? Sugar, nickel, fish and citrus, along with tobacco products, make up 80 per cent of Cuba's exports. Other exports include coffee and medical products.

What does Cuba import?
Oil and food, mostly, as well as machinery and equipment.

Doesn't Cuba produce oil?
Cuba does produce its own oil, mostly from a reservoir off the north coast, discovered with the Soviets in 1971, but that oil is poor-quality "sour" crude.

However, Cuba's oil production has taken off in recent years, thanks to foreign investment from places like Spain and Canada. Spain's Repsol-YPF and Cuba's state-run oil company CUPET found large pockets of high-quality crude oil and natural gas off the coast near Havana in 2004. The U.S. Geological Survey later confirmed the find.

Since then, companies from China, India, Canada and Norway have entered partnerships to drill for offshore oil in Cuba.

The find has also sparked interest in the U.S. Two American congressmen have introduced bills in the U.S. House and Senate to exempt oil companies from the embargo on Cuba.

What Canadian companies are operating in Cuba?
There are about 85 Canadian companies operating in Cuba, including Labatt and Pizza Nova, which has six locations in Cuba.

The largest foreign investor in Cuba is Sherritt International Corp., a natural resources company based in Toronto. State-owned Cubaniquel and Sherritt jointly operate a nickel and cobalt facility in Moa, Cuba.

Other Canadian companies are more tight-lipped about their operations in Cuba. Under the American Helms-Burton Act, officials and major stockholders of Canadian companies that do business in Cuba can be barred from entering the U.S.

[Bacchus39]

36. trading with Cuba, the embargo affects this how??

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070226/3/2y3v3.html

all those tales of woe of the US embargo on Cuba. Perhaps the Cuban government isn't trading for the right products?

advertisement
Tuesday February 27, 3:56 AM
Cuba's trade booms with China and Venezuela
HAVANA, Feb 26 (Reuters) - Cuba's trade with China more than doubled in 2006 to nearly $1.8 billion, the Chinese customs office said on Monday, as the Communist-run island prioritized its new revolutionary partners China and Venezuela.
Since Cuba signed an agreement with Venezuela in late 2004 bartering and selling services for oil and also began receiving more credit from China, it has ordered all state companies to prioritize trade and investment with the two countries.

China reported bilateral trade was $1.792 billion last year, up 105.4 percent from 2005 and compared with just $526 million in 2004.

Cuban Vice President Carlos Lage said in January that bilateral trade with Venezuela was $2.6 billion in 2006, compared with $2 billion in 2005 and $1.4 billion in 2004.

The Cuban government reported trade grew 27 percent in 2006, compared with the $9.5 billion reported in 2005, or to around $12 billion, meaning China and Venezuela accounted for more than 35 percent of all trade.

Chinese appliances now adorn most Cuban kitchens and Venezuelan snacks and canned goods are on supermarket shelves. ADVERTISEMENT

[Bacchus39]

37. more on Cuban trade

the embargo is the cause of all Castro's woes??

http://www.canf.org/2004/1in/noticias-de-cuba/2004-dic-14-cuba-not-likely.htm

For Cuba, restoring full relations with the EU would help it shed the criticism it received abroad after the 2003 crackdown, and perhaps allow it to resubmit its application to join a EU agreement that would provide the island with beneficial trade terms and development aid.

Following last year's crackdown, the EU postponed action on Cuba's application to join the Cotonou Agreement, which offers trade and aid benefits to former European colonies. Cuba then withdrew its application, citing ``unacceptable conditions.''

Access to the Cotonou funds hinges on criteria that include improvements in human rights and corruption. Havana has repeatedly stated that it would only join if there were no strings attached.

Analysts said that based on Cuba's headstrong stance on human rights, they do not expect the EU officials to take significant steps to improve bilateral relations when they meet in Brussels.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Many DU'ers are aware that your source, the Cuban American National Foundation

has been connected with decades of acts of terrorism against Cuba and Cuban citizens.

The connection between CANF and bomber/mass murderer Luis Posada Carriles is discussed in the New York Times Interview, "A Bomber's Tale" by Ann Louise Bardach and Larry Rohter:
http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/nyt_19980712main.htm

Part 2:
http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/nyt_19980713.html

August 11, 1997: The Miami press publish a statement from the Cuban American National Foundation (CANF) which pledges unconditional support to the terrorist bomb attacks against civilian and tourist targets in Cuba. The chairman of this organization claims, "We do not think of these as terrorist actions," and went on to say, ".any action against Cuba is legitimate."
(snip)

http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/terror-summary.shtml

[Bacchus39]

42. whatever, it doesn't change the futility of your claims

you post a message claiming the Cuban medical system is deteriorating and blame the embargo yet there are plenty of other sources for Cuba to negotiate outside the scope of the embargo.

maybe its Cuba's system that is holding it back????

[Judi Lynn]

44. As always, I'm completely behind posters' taking the time to start researching

for themselves on this unnatural situation. They will decide for themselves.

Here's a quick grab which might assist some early looks into the situation:

YALE News Release
CONTACT: Jacqueline Weaver 203-432-8555 #159
Embargoed for Release: 5 p.m., EST, January 17, 2000

U.S. Embargo Against Cuba Contributed to Public Health "Catastrophes" -- Says Yale Medical School Professor

New Haven, Conn. -- The United States embargo against Cuba has contributed to several public health catastrophes, among them an epidemic of blindness due to a dramatic decrease in the supply of nutrients, a Yale physician says.

There also have been epidemics of infants ingesting lye, which is used when soap is not available, and an outbreak of Guillain-Barre syndrome, a form of paralysis associated with water contamination due to lack of chlorination chemicals, said Michele Barry, M.D., professor of medicine and public health and director of the Office of International Health at the Yale School of Medicine.

"The embargo against Cuba is one of the few embargoes that includes both food and medicine and it has been described as a war against public health with high human costs," Barry wrote in an article published January 18 in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Although curtailments of individual liberties and privacy by the Cuban government may seem as an abridgement of personal freedom, we as health care professionals have a moral duty to protest an embargo which engenders human suffering in Cuba to achieve political objectives."
(snip)

The U.S. trade and aid embargo against Cuba, which began in 1961, was tolerable until the Soviet bloc crumbled -- as did its aid to Cuba -- in the late 1980s, she said. The situation was worsened with passage of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, which prohibits foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies to trade with Cuba.

Among the resulting public health "catastrophes" she cited were: more than 50,000 cases of optic and peripheral neuropathies in 1992-1993 due to scarcity of food; an epidemic of the narrowing of esophageal passages in toddlers who inadvertently drank liquid lye now substituting for soap; and an outbreak of Guillain-Barre in Havana in 1994, a neurological syndrome often resulting in temporary paralysis, due to contaminated water left unpurified due to a lack of chlorination chemicals.
(snip/...)

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/00-01-17-02.all.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cuba struggles with shortages of medical supplies
June 13, 1997
Web posted at: 8:57 p.m. EDT (0057 GMT)

From Havana Bureau Chief Lucia Newman

HAVANA (CNN) -- At the Juan Manuel Marquez children's hospital, cancer patients fight for their lives.

A 6-year-old girl's cancer is in remission, yet she is in danger of dying from severe heart complications that doctors say could have been avoided.

She needed access to a drug that protects the heart muscle from the toxic effects of the aggressive chemotherapy treatment she received.

"It is a drug that we've never been able to obtain, because it is not sold to our country. And to try and get it, we must go through a third country," said oncologist Dr. Noel Ward.

"And even then, we've been unsuccessful because there are strict controls over pharmaceutical companies that are subsidiaries of American companies."

At another children's hospital that specializes in heart surgery, the director struggles to obtain a life-saving drug produced in the United States.

"Our country needs 200 or 300 doses of this drug a year, and we have a hard time buying it from the U.S.," said Dr. Diana Matinez, director of the William Soler Hospital.

"So we have to buy it in third countries at three or four times its original cost."

Two studies criticize U.S. embargo
The dilemma these doctors face is reflected in two reports, one by the American Association for World Health and the other by the University of South Florida.

The extensive studies conclude that the U.S. economic embargo, which restricts the sale of medicine and medical equipment to Cuba, is having a direct and negative impact on the health of Cuban citizens.

Medicine and even simple equipment such as an oxygen tent are in critically short supply, say the studies, as a result of tough U.S. legislation passed in 1992.

The law obliges U.S. pharmaceutical companies and their overseas subsidiaries to obtain a special license to sell to Cuba. The world medical market is largely dominated by U.S. companies.
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9706/13/cuba.embargo/

[Bacchus39]

52. boy I am getting conflicting info on the Cuban health care system from the Castrophiles

on the one hand its superior, on the other it is in chaos due to, of course, the US embargo.

other countries have medicines, other countries have advanced medical equipment, other countries trade with Cuba. there you go!!!

[Judi Lynn]

55. I trust you will stick with the program and keep researching until you get a grasp.

You have probably overlooked reading remarks by various sources that it's a miracle Cuba has been able to succeed this well, considering the horrendous barriers.

Here's an article which might assist your efforts:

Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank

By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON, Apr 30 (IPS) - World Bank President James Wolfensohn Monday
extolled the Communist government of President Fidel Castro for doing ''a
great job'' in providing for the social welfare of the Cuban people.

His remarks followed Sunday's publication of the Bank's 2001 edition of
'World Development Indicators' (WDI), which showed Cuba as topping
virtually all other poor countries in health and education statistics.

It also showed that Havana has actually improved its performance in both
areas despite the continuation of the US trade embargo against it and the
end of Soviet aid and subsidies for the Caribbean island more than ten
years ago.

''Cuba has done a great job on education and health,'' Wolfensohn told
reporters at the conclusion of the annual spring meetings of the Bank and
the International Monetary Fund (IMF). ''They have done a good job, and it
does not embarrass me to admit it.''

His remarks reflect a growing appreciation in the Bank for Cuba's social
record, despite recognition that Havana's economic policies are virtually
the antithesis of the ''Washington Consensus'', the neo-liberal orthodoxy
that has dominated the Bank's policy advice and its controversial
structural adjustment programmes (SAPs) for most of the last 20 years.

Some senior Bank officers, however, go so far as to suggest that other
developing countries should take a very close look at Cuba's performance.
(snip/...)

http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/ipe/msg03266.html

[Bacchus39]

38. Cuba, China, Venezuela, Spain trade yet the US embargo is somehow holding Cuba back

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070226/3/2y3v3.html

) - Cuba's trade with China more than doubled in 2006 to nearly $1.8 billion, the Chinese customs office said on Monday, as the Communist-run island prioritized its new revolutionary partners China and Venezuela.
Since Cuba signed an agreement with Venezuela in late 2004 bartering and selling services for oil and also began receiving more credit from China, it has ordered all state companies to prioritize trade and investment with the two countries.

China reported bilateral trade was $1.792 billion last year, up 105.4 percent from 2005 and compared with just $526 million in 2004.

Cuban Vice President Carlos Lage said in January that bilateral trade with Venezuela was $2.6 billion in 2006, compared with $2 billion in 2005 and $1.4 billion in 2004.

The Cuban government reported trade grew 27 percent in 2006, compared with the $9.5 billion reported in 2005, or to around $12 billion, meaning China and Venezuela accounted for more than 35 percent of all trade.

Chinese appliances now adorn most Cuban kitchens and Venezuelan snacks and canned goods are on supermarket shelves.




Chinese buses ply the highways and Venezuelan oil fuels them and just about everting else in the country.

Cuba sends sugar, nickel and medicines to China and mainly technical assistance and medicines to Venezuela.

Spain was Cuba's third trading partner in 2006 at just under $1 billion.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Here's a clear picture of the havoc wrought by the embargo. When people

look into the substance of the embargo effects, it's going to clarify their understanding of this abominable, internationally illegal embargo on Cuba:

The U.S. Embargo and the Wrath of God
by Juan Gonzalez
In These Times, March 8, 1998

Havana: Gilberto Duran Torres couldn't devote much attention to Pope John Paul lI's historic visit here in January. While Cuban journalists and thousands of foreign journalists recorded the pope's every move, Duran and the other doctors at Calixto Garcia Hospital, Cuba's largest and most prestigious medical center, spent another hair-raising week quietly concocting their own miracles-a string of patchwork procedures to keep their patients alive.

Duran is chief of the intermediate care unit. He has worked at the hospital for 25 years, but nowadays he watches helplessly as the country's awesome cradle-to-grave, free medical system slowly disintegrates. Duran's department, for instance, is making do with artificial respirators that are more than 20 years old. . . . "We should have at least 12 for my unit," he says. "We have far fewer, and they are always breaking down. When one goes, we don't have the parts to fix it, so we have to search around the city, find a hospital that's not using theirs, and transport it here." So much of the world's advanced medical equipment and drugs are manufactured by U.S. firms that the three-decade-old American embargo is now literally killing Cubans, according to a 1997 report issued by the American Association for World Health (AAWH) following a year-long investigation.

Back in Washington, the proponents of the embargo insist that needed medical supplies can still get to Cuba. But the 300 page AAWH report, "Denial of Food and Medicine: The Impact of the U.S. Embargo on Health and Nutrition in Cuba," provides startling documentation of dozens of cases in which Cuban hospitals could not secure the medicine and equipment they needed because of the sharp restrictions imposed by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

Dr. Julian Ruiz, a surgeon at Calixto Garcia, recounts his 15-day search last September for a Z-Stent Introducer, a small contraption that he needed to operate on a man with colon cancer. Not one could be found in the country. The manufacturer of the Z-Stent, Wilson Cooke Medical Inc. of Winston-Salem, N.C., refused to sell it to the Cubans. Ruiz' staff, scouring the world, finally found a Z-Stent they could buy in Mexico. By that time, the man's cancer had spread.

Exacerbating the shortages are takeovers of foreign firms by U.S. pharmaceutical companies. In 1995, for example, Upjohn Co. merged with Pharmacia, a major Swedish drug company that had been supplying Cuba with millions of dollars worth of chemotherapy drugs, growth hormones and equipment for its medical labs. Within three months, Pharmacia closed its Havana office and stopped all sales.

That same year, Nunc, a Danish firm that supplied Cuba with materials for HIV and hepatitis screening tests, was absorbed by Sybron International of Wisconsin. Eight days after the merger, Nunc executives notified Cuba by fax: "Much to our regret, we have to inform you that unfortunately our cooperation of many years has to be terminated.... In future, we therefore have to follow the directions laid down by the U.S. Government in relation to Cuba."

Nothing has drawn the Catholic Church and the Cuban government closer together than their mutual opposition to the U.S. blockade of medicine and food supplies to Cuba's people.
"Even in warfare, you don't bomb hospitals and schools," says Patrick Sullivan, the pastor of a church in Santa Clara and the only American priest permanently stationed in the country.
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human_Rights/Cuba_embargo.html

[Bacchus39]

45. other countries can step in and fill the void

the EU wanted to expand trade to Cuba with the conditions that human rights abuses be addressed. Much like the US ties labor and environmental standards to free trade pacts (the merits of the pacts themselves is another issue but the similarity is there). Cuba refuses and therefore suffers. Not that the Cuban leadership suffers of course.

again, Cuba is most responsible for its own problems.

[Judi Lynn]

48. Completely wrong. The U.S. has placed barriers on the sale of any products

containing material produced or copyrighted in the U.S. This affects sales of an enormous array of products, and the transportation costs from the countries which can trade are prohibitive.

If it were as you say, countries all over the world would not have been outraged when the U.S. started putting in place the new aspects of its embargo through the Torricelli Act and the Helms-Burton Act.

[Bacchus39]

49. yet labor costs in the USA are very high compared to China

thus, any transportation costs are completely removed. I posted already that Cuban stores are stocked with Chinese goods.

the outrage of other countries over the US embargo and any actions taken by those countries to contravene the US embargo would seem yet one more piece of evidence that Cuba can and DOES obtain its goods from other countries. Not enough though due to an ineffective system and a negative trade balalance. the US makes a good scapegoat though.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Nope, not buying it. Neither is any part of the huge majority of the U.N. General Assembly

which will be voting probably within a month, once again, to condemn this embargo.

They wouldn't waste their time each year for the last 16 years to bother with this if it's truly a lot of hooey, as you insist.

They are certainly far too busy to attend any kind of circle jerk here.

You're just not going to get anywhere claiming those people who condemn the embargo are simple idiots, or worse.

[Bacchus39]

57. yeah, the condemnation of the embargo certainly has been effective

par for the course for the UN.

and I reiterate, lift the embargo. what can we get from Cuba that can't be had elsewhere?

[Judi Lynn]

58. It's not important what we can get. What's important is getting out of their business.

[Bacchus39]

61. we are out of their business.

n/t

[Bacchus39]

39. Cuba's trading partners

http://www.urban-renaissance.org/urbanren/index.cfm?DSP=content&ContentID=6369



CUBA'S TOP TRADING PARTNERS* (in US$ millions)
Country 2001 ranking
1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001
Venezuela 237 333 433 386 451 898 956
Spain 353 458 497 608 722 744 717
China 171 155 248 336 432 444 526
Canada 220 206 265 321 340 311 363
Italy 104 140 232 253 264 297 296
Mexico 397 342 366 343 322 299 292
France 211 199 270 318 276 290 277

*Sources: Anuario Estadistico de Cuba, 2001, Ministerio de Comercio Exterior de Cuba
NOTES: In aftermath collapse Soviet Union 1991 the disintegration communist trading bloc Eastern Europe, Cuba turned to Western Europe, Latin America, China an attempt salvage island’s economy. Between 1989 1994, Cuba’s GDP had contracted 35 percent according to UN figures (other estimates are much higher) unprecedented social unrest threatened very continuity communist regime. Proclaimed Fidel Castro "Periodo especial en tiempo de paz," period economic austerity peacetime has yet end. Despite global prosperity late 1990s brought an influx foreign investment tourism, Cuban economic ndices, particularly consumer buying power quality life measures, have yet recover 1989 (the last fiscal year fully subsidized Moscow) standards.
Since approximately 1995, Cuba has experienced small degree recovery due primarily financed trade with European Union (EU), particularly Spain, Italy, France whose export programs have extended credits agricultural and industrial purchases Havana. Thus, mid-1990s, Spain became Cuba’s leading investor trading partner. However, Cuba’s consistently poor payment record, substantiated its default on roughly US$500 million short and edium-term credits 2001 alone, has forced its EU trading partners to repeatedly withhold further financing until island fulfills its financial obligations.

Among Latin American suppliers, Venezuela surpassed Spain become Cuba’s principal trading partner 2001. Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez Fidel Castro signed pivotal trade agreement 2000 whereby Caracas now provides about third island’s petroleum under highly-favorable financing terms. Hence Venezuela’s leading role sustaining Cuban economy. Mexico, which along with Spain among first fill commercial vacuum left the wake fall communism, has continued major exporter Cuba, lthough its financing program has encountered setbacks due Castro regime’s chronic inability, unwillingness, honor its debts timely manner.

Canada, which pursued beginning an aggressive Cuba trade policy, continues an important partner island’s economy. However, the risks trading with Cuba have proven costly. Ultimately, Canada’s taxpayers have had absorb more than US$100 million losses incurred Canadian exporters whose sales Cuba are guaranteed Canadian government’s Export Development Agency.

Special attention should paid Cuba’s most dynamic commercial relationship, namely with People’s Republic China. Trade with China has increased from US$171 million 1995 US$526 2001. China’s interest capturing a sizeable portion Cuban market reveals growing political and ideological rapprochement between two world’s last communist states as ell Beijing’s strategic interest Caribbean. China has extended large cred lines Cuba, including US$400 million cred investment accord signed during Jiang Zemin’s second vis Havana 2001. China currently supplies Cuba with products ranging rice (along with Vietnam, China is Cuba’s leading supplier staple grain) fiber optic cables advanced telecommunications equipment. China has established an electronic eavesdropping facility near Havana capable monitoring U.S. communications.

[Bacchus39]

40. what the Castrophiles won't tell you regarding the embargo

the removal of which will not "rescue" Cuba.

After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, Cuba was soon trading with a number of countries, including Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, Canada, Russia, the Netherlands, and Venezuela. About 40 percent of Cuba's trade is within the Americas and 50 percent is with Europe. Main imports include fuel, food, semi-finished goods, wheat, vegetables, machinery, feed, and corn. Main exports are sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit. Cuba has consistently faced an unfavorable balance of trade; in 1999 imports were valued at US$3.2 billion and exports at US$1.4 billion. This situation places Cuba in a dependent position, unable to earn hard currency and reliant on other countries for vital goods.


http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Cuba-INTERNATIONAL-TRADE.html

[Judi Lynn]

46. Europeans Agree On Steps to Retaliate For U.S. Cuba Curbs

Europeans Agree On Steps to Retaliate For U.S. Cuba Curbs
Published: July 16, 1996

European nations angry over a law passed by the United States that punishes other countries for doing business with Cuba agreed today on possible steps to retaliate, including blacklisting American companies and requiring visas for business travelers.

The countermeasures approved by European Union foreign ministers will take effect if President Clinton does not waive enforcement of the legislation by a deadline on Tuesday.

The ministers ordered ambassadors from the 15 European Union countries to start preparing the countermeasures.

These include taking the matter to the World Trade Organization, establishing a list of American companies that file suit under the new law, and requiring visas for American business travelers visiting the European Union countries.

European Union nations, led by Spain, France and Italy, accounted for 45 percent of Cuba's total trade in 1994, mainly in food, tobacco and minerals.

"The best way to get change in Cuba is not to clobber your allies," said Sir Leon Brittan, the Union's vice president and trade commissioner.
(snip/...)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01EFD71E39F935A25754C0A960958260

[provis99]

62. several Canadians have already been convicted and imprisoned

These Canadian businessmen flew from Canada to Cuba conducting their company's business, and years later, while they were in Philadelphia, they were arrested for violating a new law which didn't even exist when they had their dealings, and involved them in legal activities between Cuba and Canada. The crux of the matter is that the United States is now inventing laws punishing people in foreign countries for doing things which are legal in their countries!

Sort of like if a US businessman went to Israel to sell bags of wheat to the Israelis, and then while visiting a trade conference in Toronto, was imprisoned for trading with Israel! If Americans want to fall into fascism in their own country thats one thing. This law however is nothing less than requiring foreigners to be fascist and obey corrupt American laws, too!

[Judi Lynn]

63. One of them is James Sabzali, whom some of us worried about for years

while he was being tortured by the U.S. court system. I believe they destroyed him financially, as in bankrupted him trying to defend himself legally. Filthy shame.

Here's a notice about how the Scottish Parliament views his fate at U.S. hands:
http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/corpus/search/document.php?documentid=1307

One article:

The Question of Cuba and the USA
Click here for a history of Cuban-American relations and list of sources.

Why do Americans hate and fear Cuba so much? The American reaction towards Cuba is not merely the normal American xenophobia towards other nations - France, Germany, Canada, Mexico, the entire Middle East, Japan… and pretty much the rest of the world. No, this is something deeper, a chasm in the already suspicious American political psyche. Mention Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, China or even Russia and most Americans will hardly flutter their eyelids. Say Cuba and they’ll go off kilter, launch into a wild tirade and scream invectives about Castro, freedom, human rights, and Communism.

Cuba, it seems, weighs more heavily on the American mind than almost any other nation. So heavily that Americans will lash out at anyone who even suggests a more temperate approach to the small island, even to the point of legal action against citizens of other nations who deal with Cuba in their own country.

Yes, bizarre - and unethical - as it sounds, the US has taken legal action against foreigners who even remotely appear to befriend the Cuban people. Take, for example, James Sabzali, a Canadian businessman. On February 28, 2004, he stood in American court charged with 75 counts of violating a 1917 US law – the "Trading with the Enemy Act" and a count of conspiracy.

His crime? Arms? State secrets? Military blueprints? No - he sold water purification supplies to Cuba – most of which were done while he was living and working in Canada where trade with Cuba is legal.(1)

For that humanitarian – not military - business, for a mere $3 million in sales over several years, he faced a possible life sentence and up to $19 million in fines. That’s less than a single M-1 Abrams tank ($9 million). American arms manufacturers sell more weaponry to sworn enemies of America in a week than Sabzali sold water treatment systems in his career to date. But American arms manufacturers have lobbyists who pay a lot of money to US politicians and their election campaigns to keep their trade flowing. Sabzali is merely a single, honest businessman doing business that is legal in his home country.

Sabzali, a Canadian, ended up with an American criminal record for violating American law even though he lived in another country when he sold goods to Cuba. When he visited the US, he was charged with smuggling, taken to court, given a year’s probation and fined $10,000.

The unfortunate Sabzali spent three years in the USA under strict travel restrictions, including 14 months when he was forced to wear an electronic monitoring bracelet and could not drive more than an hour from his home – even to visit his wife and children back in Canada. Obviously water purification salesmen are a tremendous security risk - more so than, say, the family and numerous relatives of Osama bin Laden who were allowed by the State Department to leave the USA immediately after 9/11, avoiding any questioning or charges for the attack on the WTC and Pentagon.
(snip/...)

http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/cuba.html

[TheProf]

65. Quoting a Democratic Parliament to Defend a Dictatorship?

Unfortunately no legal or political system is perfect, yet. Humanity itself is in a constant state of progress. If you look hard you will find abuses in the most democratic of places. Democracy is not perfect, it is just much better than what came before it.

The difference between Cuba and the US is one ruled by a dictatorial single party which controls many aspects of life and one is a multi party Democracy where citizens have many, many, many more ways to express and address their grievances. This forum being one of them (there is no anti-castrounderground.com allowed to be run from Cuba....... there are plenty that crticize GW Bush in the US.) You use text from the Scottish Parliament as evidence for your claims yet if Castro and his fellow regressives in the Soviet Union had their way, Europe would have been overrun long ago and those nice little democracies you go to to cite for evidence would not exist. Who are you kidding? You like the way Canada or the Scottish approach things, then why don't you call for a Canadian style Democracy? Want some type of Socialism, why not do it the French way? (Ironic, even the French are moving away from Socialism....... French Socialism, however is still light years ahead of Cuban Communism). If you hate the US so much you dont have to model a future Cuba on the US. There are other models to choose from, hating the US doesn't solve the fundamental problem. Why don't the Cuban Communists allow free, open, popular elections?



Your arguments are always hanging on to one last desperate thread, trying always to shift, lay blame and AVOID ALL THE CORE ISSUES. The core issue being that Communism is debunked discredited political philosophy and the kind practiced in Cuba over the last 45 years is one of its worst forms. The day Castro and his cronies step down, many of these peripheral issues will literally almost disappear overnight. People in this thread have already acknowledged the embargo may not be one of the wisest ways of treating Cuba. You on the other hand have NOT ONCE, acknowledged that CUBA is ruled by a dictatorial regime with a long history of human rights abuses and severe, extreme limits on personal, political and economic freedoms.

[tom_paine]

67. Communism is a discredited form of Tyranny, but then, so is BushPutinism

BushPutinism being the New Totalitarianism that mimics democracy for show, but for both Comrades Bush and Putin, the New Totalitarianism means never being quite fully out of power.

(just ask Cheney, Rumsfeld, and any other of the Bush Monsters who have extended Imperial Family/Party Power through five decades)

So, fine, Castro is a discredited tyrant, a murderer, a liar, and representative of a system which is cruel to it's people.

Just like BushPutinism, which hasn't even really gotten going, only the foundations are laid and the cowardly heart of the Imperial Subjects of Amerika having been assessed correctly as no threat to tyrannical Bushie ambitions.

You only have the luxury of disbelieving the existance of BushPutinism because, as an Imperial Subject of Amerika you have been mentally mollycoddled by tyrants who's desire is that you remain ignorant and confused, so as to remain helpless and powerless.

Sounds to me like, when you peel away the increasingly laughable window-dressing, which now only fools the stupid and gullible, Castro's Cuba and Bush's Amerika aren't all that different. Oh yes, Castro's Cuba is more violent and Bush-Occupied Amerika is indeed Kinder and Gentler than any form of Totalitarianism. Think of the strong history and tradition of Liberty in the Old American Republic and you will see that it could not be destroyed by any other means, as Madison predicted over 200 years ago.

Please don't confuse my disdain for Bush-Occupied Imperial Amerika (2001-?) with the Old American Republic (1776-2000, RIP), which from it's inception until the date of it's demise was the greatest nation in human history.

Just ask Jose Padilla. Oh, you can't, he was mentally and physically tortured into an incoherenet state by THREE YEARS solitary in an Amerikan Gulag.

Yep, that's much more humane treatment than he would have gotten in Cuban jails.

My point is, as Amerikans we have NO right to criticize other nations for not being free, as we are not really free anymore either. Now be a good little Imperial Subjects and tell me how you have the choice of hundreds of cell phones to choose to talk through (that will be montitored and data-mined without a warrant.

Feel free to be all morally superior to old Bushy Whiskers Castro, but that lie has been exposed. A million inncoent Iraquis, torture, kidnapping and murder are all part of the Amerikan Character (aside from cowardice and unquestioning obedience, just like the 1930s Germans, these are key components of the Soul of the Imperial Subject of Amerika), and the blood is on our hands as it would be for any Cuan who stood by and allowed Castro to perform atrocities and tyranny.

Oh, and another similarity between BushPutinist Amerika and Communist Cuba: Both currencies are weak and at Third World values. Amerika's is stronger, but only because we are liing of our free past, and our currency, like our moral standing in the world, falls steadily as we get further away from our free past.

And if you give me that old bullshit canard about, "love it or leave it", I DO love America, the Old American Republic (1776-2000, RIP), and more than any mindless flag-waving bloody handed, unthinking phony Bushie with am extreme lack of conscience, consciousness, and self-awareness.

Moral Superiority is unnbecoming to a slavish and Third World kind of nation and it's hapless Subjects...like Imperial Amerika.

Wait for it. There's a good chance that future Bushies carrying out the Penultimate and Final Solution Phases of the transition will drop more of the window-dressing needed to keep the gullible and foolsih believing they are free (eventually the show will cost too much to put on with not enough gain to show for it, like all TV shows). Already we are treading the well-worn path which has every single time in hostory, lead to a dictatorial regime with a long history of human rights abuses and severe, extreme limits on personal, political and economic freedoms.

There's blood on your hands, Prof, and the screams of a million dead and tortured innocents (now those aren't Nazi numbers yet, but give it time) are in your ears.

How nice it must be not to have a conscience, and therefore be as deaf and dumb as a 1940s German to the realities of what you support asnd what you have wrought.

[TheProf]

68. O look, we have a new pseudo marxist ideology on the rise

Yes, the Bush administration has given many old lefties and leftover marxists new hope that their tired old ideas would be reborn in some new way. An old tactic in a new form, always do your very best to make America the boogeyman. Step number one when you have a discredited philosophy is do you best to level the moral playing field. Always draw disproportionate comparisons/parallels between the Soviet Union and the American Empire and make them appear equal (in this case by comparing potential mass muderering terror suspects to average citizens who simply want to speak up, congregate or worship freely). Only now its between Bush and Putin. Let me guess if this were the 1950's or 1960's you would be secretly fantasizing that those Soviet armies would one day liberate Western Europe from the evils of Capitalism. You turned to Marxism one day because you were pissed you had to get up in the morning get a job and actually go to work? Haven't learned your lesson 40 years later and are still hoping someone will rescue you from the drudgery of your life even after 1 billion plus WHO ACTUALLY LIVED THROUGH COMMUNSIM told you maybe it was a bad idea? Still don't know enough about economics to realize that an economy just doesn't run well if a large portion of the able bodied population does nothing and yet demands the government send them a paycheck every month? Those were your dreams when you were young, isn't it time to grow up already? Or was a Pro-Castro thread on DU too much for you too resist?

Why do Bush or Putin have to be involved at all? Why can't Castro just step aside. There are many other little countries slowly quietly making their way through this new democratic world. Why can't Cuba? Can't Cuba become a model for the U.S. and overthrow a tyrant first? That would be a little less convoluted wouldn't it? Instead of using a would be dictators (Bush) actions as a smokescreen for a real dictator (Castro) why not make it simpler and have the real dictator step down first? That way makes sense to the rest of world........ if not to the new pseudo marxists or chomsky lovers. Here is your chance to beat America by leading through example, think Castro supporters will take it?

I am puzzled in what America you live in, because I personally have opposed Bush in many, many ways and I have gotten away with much much more than my Cuban-American friends in Cuba. I even have at times the local police cheering me on. So be very very very careful who you accuse of having blood on their hands. I have done my part to help Bush go, you make sure when he does leave you don't act on any left over revolutionary urge (I say that because you did jump right into the middle of a thread full of people defending Castro, hence more anecdotal proof of where your sympathies lie then that I am any type of Bush supporter) to recreate some other horror by swinging the pendulum all the way in the other direction.

Sad, sad, sad that you are making my job of trying to get rid of Bush harder by profiling me as some kind of Bush supporter. Really, it would be so much easier if every time I debated a Republican he didnt pull out these threads from supposedly Democratic message boards where they go all out to defend Fidel Castro and every other ultra left dictator of the 20th century. Put it to rest. If you're not a pseudo marxist and just had some infantile urge just to say something so you could prove to yourself you really do live in a free country, and no the FBI wont come to your door just because you posted something on the Internet. You did it. Now get over it and stop making life harder for the millions of people who are suffering under real oppression, in a place you have probably never been too and have no idea what its like. Stop making excuses (even tangentially) for a guy (Fidel) who should have been hanging from a rope a long time ago.

You picked the wrong place, wrong time, wrong thread to bring up those other issues. Try not to confuse issues and maybe you'll get one step closer to solving them.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheProf]

73. Wow, you right its a good thing we didn't have this conversation face to face....

It might not be pretty.

I dont have time right now to write out a complete response to your insane rant........ but right now I am going to make a few points.

Amazing how you complain about what people call you ......... since you started off automaticly labeling me a Bush lover and a Nazi........ and then you bitch about what someone calls you in return? I mean you really really applied the labeling right from the get go very very thick. Maybe I shouldnt have given in to the temptation to reply in kind too quickly, but you set the bar so low it was admittedly hard to resist.

My family fought the Nazis during WWII........ Lets get that little fact and point clear. There is a very strong anti-fascist tradition that runs down from my grandfather to me. So you are waaaayyyy off in that first accusation you hurled. I am not a flag waving bushie either, yet you still cling to that even after I explained it the first time.

If someone mistakes you for being a marxist sympathsizer....... Well... you did jump right into a thread and provide moral support to a bunch of Castro lovers (by providing them a deeper context with which to entrench their views)..... I used greater discrimination with you then you did with me. You throw around the term "imperial" better than Lenin...... so one can easily mistake you. A lot of your critique sounds like it falls somewhere between Marx, Lenin, Chomksy (to put it very briefly)....... hence I said what I said. Don't meet many Bush lovers who have actually read Marx, Lenin or Chomsky do you? I at one point in time was very well versed in all three.

If you lost relatives to Stalin I am sorry..... but most people who have dont really try so hard to wedge themselves between me and a bunch of Castro defenders. It can be considered at the very least, a slight contradiction.

The problem I have with your claims to greater knowledge of Communism, is that someone who does have it in all likelihood would not have opened up on me with the type of initial response you did. Poles suffered greatly under Communism...... yet most still have a basic faith in America, same thing with many other Eastern Europeans (One of Castro's greatest and most persistently vocal present day critics is Czechoslovakia's former leader Vaclav Havel.) and older Koreans, Cubans, etc. People who came from countries that suffered under Communist rule. Most still see a huge difference between present day America and the countries they came from.

For now I guess I'll have to take your word for it...... even though your critique sounds painfully pseudo marxist....... I guess I can just chalk it up to the crowd you hang out with. Something may be rubbing off.

[tom_paine]

74. Did you read the links I provided?

Totalitarianism is neither Left nor Right, not rooted in one economic system or another. But read the links I provided, who's eyewitness accounts are far more eloquent than I could ever be.

You can have a problem with my knowledge of Communism, but to assume that in a statistically large group of people, that facts x + y automatically lead to assumption z, is erroneous in and of itself.

Again, you missed my point about the irrelevance at this stage of persistent daily physical danger for dissenters. Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." By the time there is common daily physical danger for speaking out, it will be too late to speak out.

Oh, and here is an eyewitness account of daily life in Germany 1933-1941, when you would expect extreme daily physical danger for Jews would be prevalent. Nope. Read it if you think I am lying. So, in even the worst of the worst of history's totalitarianism's, capable of some of the rawest mass evil humanity has ever seen, and a Jew could still go to the market daily in peace in 1938. Hmmm. Don't believe me? Please read the book at your local library.

http://www.amazon.com/Will-Bear-Witness-1933-1941-Paperbacks/dp/0375753788

We are a much less violent and murderous society than that which existed in the 1930s, relatively speaking. Life is not as cheap these days (although that trend is also reversing itself, as it does in other nations transitioning to totalitarianism, as we are) as it was in the 1930s, 1830s, or 430s, therefore our new forms of totalitarianism would reflect this sea change in society over the last 60 years, no?

Ever read "Farenheit 451" before? Well, minus some of the details, impossible to predict from 1948 or so when the book was written, THAT is what we are heading for, though there is always hope we will turn from this course. Beatty's soliloquy about midway through the book is as excellent a description of what has happened to the American Psyche from 1948-present.

The discussion on the "election" by Mildred and her friends in the book, is as vapid and insane as any pundit roundtable on Cable Infoganda.

As to the leftist cant to my arguments which I will not deny:

It is a simple fact of history that when one side is overswelled with power and excess, be it Hitler, Pinochet, and Bush on the Right or Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot on the Left, the other side's extremists start making more sense.

As crazy as this might sound, a True Moderate, in a parallel Universe where the situation was flipped and Hardcore Socialists/Communists had taken over the Democratic Party and began rigging elections, criminalizing the courts, and shredding the Contitution & Bill of Rights, would likely see the "rantings" of the Hannities and O'Reilly's of the world would start to take on a cant of truth (in such an alternate reality, it is the Right Wing which would be exposing the Nazi-like lies and deceptions of the Unchecked Totalitarian Left, and Hannity and O'Reilly would probably be doing what they are doing now, but for the Communists/Democrats in that alternate universe).

So, yes, many of my arguments are those used by the Left, and even some of them by the Extreme Left, because they briefly make sense for this nation in this period of history. Which is a far cry from the embrace of Communism.

Maybe you should consider this next time you go in guns blazing. I blazed back, but have cooled down now, and your relatively civilized (if a bit smarmy, which is understandable) response is owed one in return.

But I will say this. Even while capitalism is clearly the best economic system yet dioscovered, and there does seem to be corellation between Communism and Tyranny (but not Moderate Socialism as practiced by places like Iceland and Sweden, which doesn't seem to engender automatic tyranny the way Hard Communism does...I merely point this out) relative to Capitalism, we cannot dismiss the many evil enterprises and atrocities which capitalism has lent itself to (not the least of which being Hitler and the Nazis, who were brought into power by the German Aristocrats and Industrialists).

[TheProf]

75. First let's get a few things straight.....

You came in guns blazing in post # 67 and started hurling one accusation after another.... that is very clear.... all you have to do is follow the thread. Yes...... I more light heartedly responded in kind...... after your full blown senseless tirade accusing me of being a Nazi. You set the very very very low standard of debate.

I could write much more.... but I have only 1 or 2 hours to reply and then I have to continue working and making a living...... Although I would like to, I can't read everything you mention overnight, nor reply to every single little point...... as far off the mark many are. The issues you bring up are becoming more and more off topic....and would require a 20 page reply. You yourself make many assumptions and pass them off as fact.

In my worldview...... I can be both anti-bush and anti-castro at the same time. So in a sense I recognize that totalitarianism can come in many forms... that is obvious. I dont know how much clearer I can be. Before you tirade, in my reply # 47 you will notice if you had read the thread...... that I already drew a slight parallel between Bush and Castro. So I understand what you are trying to say but you are in a way talking in circles and confusing the issue to a large degree.

For the sake of the clarity...... Yes Bush is a very bad president and is at the very beginning possibly of the spectrum of dictatorship. Very, very beginning and being fought by more the half of America almost every step of the way. If you haven't noticed there is a HUGE amount of anti-bush literature, articles, etc.... In the press, on the net etc. all being freely communicated. 40% of my workplace is Republican and they all hate Bush. So I don't buy there is a 100% parallel between the U.S. and Nazi Germany in the 30's. Close enough in some ways to cause some alarm but still way way off. The future dictatorial state of America you are talking about is a hypothetical.... still far from being fully manifested. If Bush ever approached anything near what you are talking, there would be full blown civil war. Very bad yes, but Americans would not have the kind of obedience of the 1930's German. If you disagree, well you disagree, not much more I can do.

Castro on the other hand is a real living, fully manifested dictator with all the qualities realized in one of their worst forms and had the Soviet Union not fallen would not be making any of the very small window dressing reforms that he has since 1991 (like allowing people to worship openly). He would still be exporting his brutal dictatorial revolution as far and as wide as possible. If you openly criticize him the way you can Bush in America, you face possible imprisonment, intimidation by his either state security or one of the citizen goon squads he set up, loss of employment, having your family harrassed along with you, etc. the list goes on and on. A BIG DIFFERENCE FROM THE U.S. Like it or not, believe it or not.

You use Jose Padilla a potential mass murdering terrorist as an example. Even if Gore were President, terrorists would still pose a problem and some dilemma of how to handle them. No, I am not saying in any way he should be treated the way he has been, or torture is the right thing but any Democracy would be pressured and tested when dealing with mass murderers and WMD. The parallel between Cuba and the US simply doesn't work For the sake of clarity, if you want a Cuba/US parallel..... then it would be something like Bush or Cheney going out and arresting the entire Democratic leadership, taking them to the nearest sports stadium, lining them up against the wall and executing them in the thousands. Then following up by imprisoning hundreds of thousands of the Democratic party's biggest donors or supporters, as well as destroying all the free press, severely or almost completely cutting of the internet, etc That is a much more concise and clearer Cuba/US parallel.

You're own examples even contradict themselves

"We are a much less violent and murderous society than that which existed in the 1930s, relatively speaking. Life is not as cheap these days (although that trend is also reversing itself, as it does in other nations transitioning to totalitarianism, as we are) as it was in the 1930s, 1830s, or 430s, therefore our new forms of totalitarianism would reflect this sea change in society over the last 60 years, no?"

And who was one of the greatest leaders of this sea change? It sure as hell wasn't Fidel Castro. The US was one of the greatest promoters of this "sea change", even though it stumbled and continues to stumble at many points along way.


"So, yes, many of my arguments are those used by the Left, and even some of them by the Extreme Left, because they briefly make sense for this nation in this period of history. Which is a far cry from the embrace of Communism."

Well, that's your own problem. I don't have to borrow pseudo marxist thinking to criticize Bush, I can do it within other frameworks. All it takes is some basic common sense. Not grand, very vague, theories of "Imperialism". I in a way do see some sense in your ying/yang hannity/oreily example, but I dont think its correct to constantly swing from one pendulum to another. That is a product of the times we live in (the world has changed enough, that newer models of reality may be a little more appropriate instead of regurgitating, refighting the past ). Drawing false equivalences between the US and Cuba doesn't help the situation. It makes the Cuba situation worse and confuses people who are a little younger and did not live through the time when Communism was such a big threat. One of the problems with pseudo marxist thinking is that because of Bush's idiocy it has now become so widespread people don't even know it's origins anymore or that's is pseudo-marxist. You are giving the leftover Commie thugs a moral victory, an excuse to continue their own bad behavior.

In a nutshell what gives me the right to critcize it (Cuba's regime) is that the people who lived there under Castro and fled to the US, want me too, ask for my help, appreciate it and even imply it is my moral duty as an American. Same is true of others who fled Communism. So, nope sorry, I am going to keep calling the Castro defender's out and provide Cuban Americans whatever kind of assitance I can too overthrow their brutal tyrant. And I will make no apologies for it.




Anyway..... I think I got some of your point, If you did lose relatives to Stalin and are a USAF veteran, I do respect that....... You did jump right into the middle of something between me and the most prolific posters of pro-communist spam on DU....... so just chill out a little. We both dont like Bush or Castro. We have differences but agree on many things. Relax. Unleash some of your anti-totalitarianism on some resurgent/ regrouping left over Commies. Hold the friendly fire and attack in another direction.

[TheProf]

76. One more thing...... about moderate socialism

If you had noticed before you entered this crossfire..... in #65, I did ask the hardcore castro- lovers why not some moderate form of socialism. Before you launched the first barrage in #67.

Since you did bring it up again at the end of # 74 might be an interesting thing to ask the Castro-lovers again, don't you think? (Before you open up with the next barrage on me)

It's important because in a way it really does put the final nail into Castro's regime. The entire world has moved on and if you want Socialism there are better ways to do it.

[tom_paine]

77. Just a couple of points:

1) Yes, my veteran status and my great-uncles killed by Stalin are true (although I have but the word of my now-deceased grandmother for that, I never met them personally).

2) My point about the "sea change" is not that that tyrannical Fidel had anything to do with it :puke: but that, in spite of some very bad things we did (Iran 1953 and the Shah, backing Saddam in the beginning andint the 80s, Guatemala 1954 and Chile 1972 - we might agree to disagree with those things if you agree with the line that Allende was a Soviet dupe or that the Shah was brutal but necessary to defeat communism - I cannot agree with that) you are correct that the Old America Republic from 1945 until it's end in 2000 (something that is incredibly saddening and a great loss for humanity) was a force for that "sea change".

Now, quite frighteningly, we are leading the "sea change" in the other direction..."Back to the Future", as it were, and this gives us ZERO moral highground to criticize totalitarianisms more brutal than ourselves. On this we must agree to disagree, too. The next five decades will tell, and maybe much sooner, how close the American Dictatorial State is. Legally, all it would take is one NBC "terrorist" attack (God Forbid). It's already in place, along with the Halliburton Detention Camps.

One thing is certain, however, is that it will advertise itself as being a continuation of the Liberty of the Founding Fathers and not dare speak what it really is above a whisper. It will keep the window-dressing that keep people guessing as to whether or not freedom exists anymore. I don't expect overt brutalities like Castro's in America for decades yet, possibly 100 years though that seems wildly optimistic, especially in the event of economic or environmental calamity, or if oil goes to $20 a gallon or the currency finishes deflating or... But once an Empire sets on a course, history shows it to be a depressingly similar swirl down the spout every time, sometimes taking much of the world with it, as the Nazis on the Right and the Soviets on the Left did.

Like it or not, Bushmerika has crossed that line, from the side of the Founding Fathers and the ASge of Enlightenment to the side of Medeval Darkness, merger of church and state, anti-itellectualism and any host of other nascent traits which ARE similar to Nazis on the Rights and the Soviets on the Left, and to a frigthening degree. (Dialectical materialism and other Marxist tripe being "Commie Religion", so to speak)

It may cross back, but I can honestly see no mechanism by which it can do so. Not our electoral system, which is bruised and abused and much worse than, yes, Chavez' Venezuela, which was certified by Jimmy Carter and the Center for American Democracy in the 90s.

Our electoral system would not even qualify for such certification, so said Carter after 2000 and I quite believe him, or perhaps you think he is a lousy Commie Pinko, too, this moderate Southern deregulator of airlines.

Not our Media, which is the carnival circus of a society of debased "virtual" slaves, rather than the serious discourse which characterized the Last Days of the Old American Republic and our greatest era, 1945-2000.

Sorry of many of these truths coincide with Commie criticisms and sound like recycled Marxism. I truly am sorry for that, and I do agree that such talk might one day mitigate the horrors of Communism to the ignorant, although I think China is plenty of an example currently staring us in the face.

But the truth is the truth, and I think that if one argues in the frames of the Bushies, constructed as the Commies of Orwell's "1984" "to eliminate opposition by removing the language for even discussing oppositon to The Party", then one is defeated before one starts.

But we must agree to disagree about many things, and the Left and the warmed-over Marxists happen to be correct about some things, and we are only hurting ourselves if we fail to recognize the truths the opposition speaks simply because they are the opposition.

I'll say it again: Recognizing that the Left was correct about Crony Capitalism or the laughable celebro-destruction of the pathetic Mainstream Corporate Media, or about the dangers or excesses of Corporate Power, and disagreeing with the idea of Corporate Personhood, does not automatically make a person want to make everyone's salary equal.

It is possible to hold those views and be an FDR New Deal Democrat, which is what I believe myself to be, beyond the zealotry and anger at staring the "Fall of Rome Pt. 2" in the face for seven years.

OK, so I guess we have to agree to disagree. And a belated welcome to DU, THeProf.

PS: Yeah, I did come in guns blazing. I despise the hypocrisy of we Americans, who are really no more than powerless Imperial Subjects at this point, pointing any fingers of moralism at others who are merely doing what WE do when faced with Bushie tyrants, cowering and obeying. They don't HAVE to herd Democrats into stadiums and kill them to achieve the same essential goals of total unchecked power. Does that make our cowering obedience better while hundreds of thousands of Iraqi innocents die yearly? We will never know what Padilla did, he's a mindblown vegetable, and apparently the Bushies neevr had any hard evidence to start with or he would have been tried up front, not vegetablized. But he was an American Citizen with the same rights as you or me...which is to say none at all, not really.

I'll say it again...until we Americans succeed in restoring our own democracy and freedoms, which I am not even sure is possible with a Democratic Landslide in 2008 (if that is even possible considering the debased condition of our voting systems and media), then we should STFU in moralizing to other countries who are simply doing what we do, but in a brutal and meaner way. Sorry, the smiley-face of Friendly Fascism as described in Farenheit 451 or Modern Imperial Amerika is no more acceptable to me than Stalinism or Nazism. Sure, my physical body is happy that I am not in the same kind of imminent physical danger, but that's not enough to counterbalance the shame at being the Generation That gave America's Greatness to Monstrous Tyrants and Murderersto Play With and ultimately, may well have snuffed the American Constitution out firmly and fully (only time will tell).

We shall see, for I think that the Bushies are playing with fire, and you can't take a nation down this path without it spiraling all the way to the bottom, even IF (and that's ONE BIG IF) the first Bushies never intended it. Kind of the same way Julius Caeser probably never foresaw Caligula and Nero. If he knew, he might have helped Brutus plunge the daggers into his own chest

But you should be reading the links I provided to Jaspers and Mayer, not me. Please, go back and read them.

[TheProf]

78. Blending and mixing many issues into one overly gloomy potential.

Just a little more differentiation is warranted.

There are big differences between Left, Far Left and Ultra- Left. I myself don't like the terms or the spectrum but for now they are a convenient only for the sake of some brief discussion.

No, Jimmy Carter is not a pinko commie and public garbage collection as well as the post office are not forms of Communism. Your frame of reference is still too Bush centric. I am not an ultra right winger who throws around the label Commie too easily or frivously (at anything that seems like its some form of collective, co-op, or government run). I really didn't think I would be having this type of discussion long after 1991. Debates about Socialism yes, arguing with hardcore defenders of Castro no. So please don't take me out of context. Or misstate the obvious. Which is this thread is obviously filled with defenders of one the worst forms of Communist government still in existence. Thats why the Commie label came out...... and for many people in this thread it most definitely fits. I almost never use it in daily life...... rarely do I hear people praise Castro at work, home, or in the street.

This thread wasn't a discussion about as you so well put it:

"Crony Capitalism or the laughable celebro-destruction of the pathetic Mainstream Corporate Media, or about the dangers or excesses of Corporate Power, and disagreeing with the idea of Corporate Personhood, does not automatically make a person want to make everyone's salary equal."

It started out as more propaganda from the cult of Che, which lead to discussions about the cult of Castro. It wasn't about the Left, its about the Totalitarian ULTRA FAR LEFT.

The Left should be a little more concerned about the ULTRA FAR LEFT, because historically when the ULTRA FAR LEFT is done with the FAR RIGHT or whoever else was in their way, they then turn on the Moderate Left. Castro himself executed some of his more moderate buddies after he used them to oust Batista. He lined them up and shot them together with the Batista supporters. The Bolsheviks did the same. Communism was created by Marx to differentiate himself from those, in his mind, weak socialists who didn't have the guts to spill the blood necessary for the revolution. The ones who wanted a more go slow,empirical, rational approach. If you are not for the the revolution, then you are part of the counter revolution. There is no compromise for the true Communist. Similiar to the way Bush says "You are either us or against us". A tradition perfected by Communist revolutionaries all over the world. Only they are smarter then Bush and dupe and co-opt you into their cause first and throw you away when they are done.

Remember that when you feel inclined next time to provide them moral support.

I wouldnt have brought up Communism if this was a thread about campaign finance reform or how to limit the power of lobbyists. This was a thread with ardent communists trying to defend the leader of one of the last refuges of their discredited philosophy. While you're huffing and puffing about American Democracy, what's wrong with me or others shedding some light on the truth in Cuba? All of sudden you're stretching and rationalizing ways about how I cant call them out? It's a discussion and you want to silence my half (you do use the term STFU) of it by constantly bring up Bush and letting the other little commie subversives have free reign? When the discussion does turn to something like campaign finance reform, our little subversives are going to be in the next thread or at the next protest pretending to be nice little democrats while they are duping the gullible into their movement so they can convince people what kind of little paradise Cuba is under Castro. Or even how North Korea is not as bad a place as people make it out to be. You want me to just sit by and cheer them on? Because America has one bad President who I didnt vote for and protest myself every chance I get and may be out in 2008, end of story. But Castro and his thugs will still be ruling Cuba?

Ahahaha, nope, sorry, I dont buy it. Opposing Bush and Castro are not mutually exclusive. I already referenced in my previous reply who gives me the moral authority and I am going to keep using it. It's up to you whether to convolute the issue further. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens to America. The situation is not so lost or irreversible as you make it seem. American history was filled with a lot of dark episodes. It made it through before, I feel it will again. I guess like you said we just have to agree to disagree. The task is too great for any one person, I just have to do my small part. One way to stay sane, is not to throw every event into one huge sweeping generalization (100 years is way to far out to call) and instead work on one small part at a time in order to achieve a practical result. In this thread I choose stay on topic, because although Cuba is inextricably linked to the rest of the world, it is a concise enough issue for one to focus on almost just Cuba.

What else can I say (to you), but have a nice day. Interesting discussion and I will read jaspers and myers when I have the chance. While I'm at it you should catch up with history of what Communists do with moderate socialists who align themselves with them, until the Communists seize power. Talk to them and read about what they think about your little "bourgeois" (their word) version of democracy that you're so proud of defending. Ask yourself what would happen to a "FDR New Deal Democrat" if they were in a country ruled by Stalin, or Mao or it's about time he croaked Fidel Castro and wanted to make some change..

[tom_paine]

79. Thanks for the interesting chat. We do agree about most things, it seems.

From :grr: to :toast: in a short while. Only on DU.

You don't have to tell me about what the Commies do to their dupes, nor to FDR New Deal Democrats, when they get in power. They and the Bushies are merely two sides of the same coin, anyway. Preaching to the choir, there.

Besides, right now, as America teeters on the fringe of true totalitarianism "kinder and gentler style", it would seem unlikely that if it is to be stopped that it would flip to the same kind of authoritarianism, but practiced by the Left. That seems to me an unreasonable fear, for the moment.

To my way of thinking (and sorry for playing on the Hitler-Bush similarities so hard, but they are just so damned apt, though in truth I would compare the Bushes to the Caesars much more closely than the Hitler bunch) that's like worrying about Germany Communizing (is that a word?) :evilgrin: in response to Hitler in '33.

Oddly enough, Victor Klemperer's "I Will Bear Witness" explains that actually WAS a prevalent notion in Germany 1933-39. It's all throughout the book, people saying, "After the Nazis come the Communists, so we're best to stick with the Nazis because the Communists will be worse."

Sorry, but those types of worries I cannot allow to bother me, because to me the danger in America from the Totalitarian Left is, literally, 0.0000000001% as likely to achieve full-spectrum total dominance over all of it, while the Totalitarian Bushie Right is already about 40% complete in the job already.

First, we get the monarchial/totalitarian Bushie vampires off our necks and save American democracy, then we work out the political differences of the coalition to strengthen and preserve it. And if all of us are stupid enough to believe transparent Commie Lies in victory, as the Bushies believe their Bushie Lies, then maybe we deserve the totalitarianism we get, after all. But I doubt the Liberal and Libertarian Left are going to fall for that BS, especially after the Bushies were doing it to us just the same way for all of these years.

Finally, I apologize for calling you a Bushie. Obviously, I was mistaken. I thought I already apologized in one of my previous posts, but I did not. So...sorry.

A very interesting conversation and I hope to see you around the boards, TheProf. However, you might want to try out some of the other threads which doesn't bring out those you so virulently disagree with, and who will never modulate their view and seldom discuss civilly, as we turned out to have done. DU has a wide spectrum of opinions, many of which cannot be accurately pigeonholed. Get away from the Castro Symapthizers and check out the rest of it.

:hi: See ya'.

[TheProf]

69. By the way......

are you implying the choice of hundreds of cell phones, is just a government plot to be able to listen in on your conversations? Is that the reason you think their is such a large cell phone industry?

[Judi Lynn]

53. American Association for World Health:"The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo On The Health And Nutrition

"Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997
After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

1. A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
   
   
2. Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."
   
   
3. Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
   
   
4. Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S.

Taken together, these four factors have placed severe strains on the Cuban health system. The declining availability of food stuffs, medicines and such basic medical supplies as replacement parts for thirty-year-old X-ray machines is taking a tragic human toll. The embargo has closed so many windows that in some instances Cuban physicians have found it impossible to obtain life-saving medicines from any source, under any circumstances. Patients have died. In general, a relatively sophisticated and comprehensive public health system is being systematically stripped of essential resources. High-technology hospital wards devoted to cardiology and nephrology are particularly under siege. But so too are such basic aspects of the health system as water quality and food security. Specifically, the AAWH's team of nine medical experts identified the following health problems affected by the embargo:

1. Malnutrition: The outright ban on the sale of American foodstuffs has contributed to serious nutritional deficits, particularly among pregnant women, leading to an increase in low birth-weight babies. In addition, food shortages were linked to a devastating outbreak of neuropathy numbering in the tens of thousands. By one estimate, daily caloric intake dropped 33 percent between 1989 and 1993.
   
   
2. Water Quality: The embargo is severely restricting Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals and spare-parts for the island's water supply system. This has led to serious cutbacks in supplies of safe drinking water, which in turn has become a factor in the rising incidence of morbidity and mortality rates from water-borne diseases.
   
   
3. Medicines & Equipment: Of the 1,297 medications available in Cuba in 1991, physicians now have access to only 889 of these same medicines - and many of these are available only intermittently. Because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. pharmaceuticals, Cuban physicians have access to less than 50 percent of the new medicines available on the world market. Due to the direct or indirect effects of the embargo, the most routine medical supplies are in short supply or entirely absent from some Cuban clinics.
   
   
4. Medical Information: Though information materials have been exempt from the U.S. trade embargo since 1 988, the AAWH study concludes that in practice very little such information goes into Cuba or comes out of the island due to travel restrictions, currency regulations and shipping difficulties. Scientists and citizens of both countries suffer as a result. Paradoxically, the embargo harms some U.S. citizens by denying them access to the latest advances in Cuban medical research, including such products as Meningitis B vaccine, cheaply produced interferon and streptokinase, and an AIDS vaccine currently under-going clinical trials with human volunteers.

American Association for World Health
1825 K Street, NW, Suite 1208
Washington, DC 20006
Tel. [phone] / FAX [phone]

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

[Mika]

59. A true canard - note the way some post nations instead of corporations..

.. as if countries manufacture items. :eyes:

Its a propaganda tactic to misdirect one's attention away from the fact that it is corporations that manufacture items, and it is corporations that are in the aim of the US sanctions.

Corporations that do business in Cuba are not permitted to do business in the USA. That means that large businesses (medical, drug, industrial, hardware, software, etc etc) have to choose between the miniscule Cuban market or the super large US market.





-

[Bacchus39]

60. which Cuban corporations do China, Spain, Venezuela trade with?

n/t

[Judi Lynn]

64. Cuban Operation Miracle Programme Provides Free Eye Surgery

Cuban Operation Miracle Programme Provides Free Eye Surgery to Nearly Half a Million Low Income Patients

Almost half a million poor people from 28 Caribbean and Latin American nations have benefited from Operation Miracle, a highly successful programme started by Cuba that provides free surgery to low income patients.

Cuban Public Health Ministry official, Elia Rosa Lemus, presented a report at a recent parliamentary hearing, in which she revealed that a total of 485,476 patients have been operated on, including 290,000 Venezuelans. In her review of the programme, she stressed that Operation Miracle, created by Cuba and supported by Venezuela, has turned into a giant humanitarian campaign.

Lemus noted that one in every 87 Venezuelans has already been treated, as well as one in every 213 Bolivians and one in every 60 citizens from Antigua and Barbuda.

Today, 13 ophthalmologic centers are in service in Venezuela, and similar facilities are providing services in Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras and Bolivia.

http://eye.taragana.net/archive/cuban-operation-miracle-programme-provides-free-eye-surgery-to-nearly-half-a-million-low-income-patients/