Hamas and the Palestinians: Punishing the Innocent is a Crime

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

By Jimmy Carter

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0507-21.htm

<snip>

Atlanta -- Innocent Palestinian people are being treated like animals, with the presumption that they are guilty of some crime. Because they voted for candidates who are members of Hamas, the United States government has become the driving force behind an apparently effective scheme of depriving the general public of income, access to the outside world and the necessities of life.

Overwhelmingly, these are school teachers, nurses, social workers, police officers, farm families, shopkeepers, and their employees and families who are just hoping for a better life. Public opinion polls conducted after the January parliamentary election show that 80 percent of Palestinians still want a peace agreement with Israel based on the international road map premises. Although Fatah party members refused to join Hamas in a coalition government, nearly 70 percent of Palestinians continue to support Fatah's leader, Mahmoud Abbas, as their president.

It is almost a miracle that the Palestinians have been able to orchestrate three elections during the past 10 years, all of which have been honest, fair, strongly contested, without violence and with the results accepted by winners and losers. Among the 62 elections that have been monitored by us at the Carter Center, these are among the best in portraying the will of the people.

One clear reason for the surprising Hamas victory for legislative seats was that the voters were in despair about prospects for peace. With American acquiescence, the Israelis had avoided any substantive peace talks for more than five years, regardless of who had been chosen to represent the Palestinian side as interlocutor...

[Poppyseedman]

1. Jimmy, please just retire.

"Public opinion polls conducted after the January parliamentary election show that 80 percent of Palestinians still want a peace agreement with Israel based on the international road map premises."

Hamas should do the will of the people and recognize Israel right to exist

With American acquiescence, the Israelis had avoided any substantive peace talks for more than five years, regardless of who had been chosen to represent the Palestinian side as interlocutor.

Jimmy, put that bong down. I don't know what the hell you are smoking, but that is complete bullshit.

With all their faults, Hamas leaders have continued to honor a temporary cease-fire, or hudna, during the past 18 months,

Jimmy, you shouldn't use words like "hudna" without understanding what they mean.

The Israelis are withholding approximately $55 million a month in taxes and customs duties that, without dispute, belong to the Palestinians.

Jimmy, you got one right, a .250 batting average will only make you a minor league player

To those find this post offensive, sorry, but Jimmy is being completely unfair to the other side of the issue. As a former President he needs to stay out of international politics and continue to build homes for the poor.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. "As a former President...

...he needs to stay out of international politics..."

LOL, you're better than Colbert.

[Poppyseedman]

3. No not really, I don't find him particularly funny. Not my style of humor

Jimmy last sentence:

There is no doubt that Israelis and Palestinians both want a durable two-state solution, but depriving the people of Palestine of their basic human rights just to punish their elected leaders is not a path to peace.

The people of Palestine elected leaders that do not want a durable two-state solution. That is their stated goal. Israel has stated numerous times it will abide by a two-state solution, even help them obtain a functioning government if they will accept them as legitimate.

They can't elect a government that refuse to be a peace partner and then cry about not having peace. They can't have it both ways.

Jimmy is smart enough to know this and is playing a game way past his ability to influence the outcome

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

10. You couch the debate...

...as though Hamas is the reason there are no peace talks or good faith negotiations going on. This is simply not the case. Israel's government refuses to acknowledge Hamas as the bona fide and legitimate representatives of the Palestinians that they are. The Israeli government, with the tacit approval and cooperation of the United States, has chosen to pursue the imposition of "misery and starvation" tactics against the Palestinians. This approach is both barbaric and cruel, and will never bring about a lasting peace.

In another Carter piece from this March, "Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace," he writes.

The preeminent obstacle to peace is Israel’s colonization of Palestine. There were just a few hundred settlers in the West Bank and Gaza when I became president, but the Likud government expanded settlement activity after I left office. President Ronald Reagan condemned this policy, and reaffirmed that Resolution 242 remained “the foundation stone of America’s Middle East peace effort.” President George H.W. Bush even threatened to reduce American aid to Israel.

And in observance of the other side of this issue, he also explicitly lays out three basic premises that must be honored in order for there to be a stable peace:

1. Israel’s right to exist—and to live in peace—must be recognized and accepted by Palestinians and all other neighbors;

2. The killing of innocent people by suicide bombs or other acts of violence cannot be condoned; and

3. Palestinians must live in peace and dignity, and permanent Israeli settlements on their land are a major obstacle to this goal.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0309-32.htm

President Carter has not been one-sided in his treatment of this subject and your contention that Hamas is unwilling to recognize Israel or participate in real, substantive, good faith negotiations is unfounded. The Israeli government does not want an end to the forty year oppressive occupation and continued colonization of Palestine and they know this is exactly where real and substantive peace talks would have to lead. Therefore, they simply use past deeds and statements of Hamas as an excuse not to negotiate with them, and choose instead a policy of starvation, humiliation and continued colonization.

[Poppyseedman]

12. I would agree that Israel has refused Hamas

as the bona fide and legitimate representatives of the Palestinians that they are. I might add, by popular election, so I believe they are wrong in this tactic and should use their "elected" status as a chip in getting Hamas to admit the right of Israel to exist as a perquisite to peace talks or good faith negotiations. At least meet them half way.

As for imposition of "misery and starvation" tactics, I think Israel is also wrong on this also, but after generations of conflict and attacks to drive them from their rightful homeland, I can understand their reluctance to be a good neighbor. Don't condone it, but understand it.

As for my point about Israel being in their homeland, as opposed to them occupying the Palestinian homeland, any cursory reading of a good history book will plainly lay out the facts. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland within the area called Israel, but not as the primary nation. It's simply not historically accurate to say the Jews don't belong there.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

16. I agree that Hamas must...

...openly and sincerely stipulate to the non-negotiable premise that Israel not only has the right to exist but also the right to be free from acts of terror. And to the degree that Hamas fails to meet this condition, and do everything that is reasonably within their power to discourage acts of terror, they too are an obstacle to peace. I believe Hamas would accept this.

As to who belongs where or has rights to precisely what land, I'm no historical scholar and don't pretend to have those answers. It may be hopelessly naive on my part, but I hope to one day see Palestinians and Israelis living together, not separately, building on their commonalities, not dividing on their differences. I recognize such a suggestion raises many complex issues and problems that have a long history.

Below are pasted concluding paragraphs from a piece titled "The One-State Solution" by Daniel Lazare published in The Nation in October of '03. While the complexities and challenges of such an idea are clearly immense, so too, are the costs of this conflict continuing forever unresolved.

In a Jewish state eternally bedeviled by the question of who or what is a Jew, power flows to "real Jews" whose identity seems least questionable. Rather than intellectuals for whom contradiction and ambiguity are the staff of life, it flows to Jewish warriors like Sharon and to religious zealots like the ultra-Orthodox, one-dimensional caricatures who have made a point of banishing all doubt. The very structure of a Jewish state gives such elements the inside track. Efron shows how secularists began by making seemingly minor concessions to the ultra-Orthodox, only to see them turn into a flood in the ensuing decades. In 1947, before Israel was even born, Ben-Gurion promised the Orthodox rabbinate that the Jewish Sabbath would be the new nation's official day of rest; that kitchens in schools, museums and other public buildings would be kosher; that traditional Jewish matrimonial laws would be enforced; and that the ultra-Orthodox would have autonomy in educating their children (with the state footing the bill). In 1948, in the middle of a desperate war for survival, he exempted full-time yeshiva students from military service. According to Uri Avnery, Ben-Gurion felt he could make an exception because Orthodox Judaism was a relic of the Middle Ages and clearly on its way out. Yet when Menachem Begin lifted the lid on military exemptions thirty years later, the numbers promptly swelled. Today, Efron reports, more than 30,000 Torah students, 10 percent of all available military recruits, are exempted per year. There are more full-time Torah students, he adds, than at any point in Jewish history and possibly more than in all of Jewish history combined. Whereas most ultra-Orthodox men in America hold down regular jobs, most do not in Israel, thanks to generous government stipends. They are an economic drag on a society they refuse to defend.

Still, the question remains: Why should secular Israelis care? Yogurt containers, movie posters, the occasional uppity woman fired from her job--it's very easy to overlook such things amid the daily grind. If an extensive government welfare apparatus is causing the ranks of yeshiva bukhers to explode, why curse the black-hatted brigades, as so many secular Israelis, according to Efron, do? Why not simply attack such perverse incentives through normal legislative means and move on? The answer is that it's not so easy. The democratic and religious sides of Israeli society are at daggerheads and neither can afford to back down. Marc Ellis's "civil war of conscience" is playing itself out on a daily basis over issues both great and small. From a secular point of view, Israeli democracy does not make religious intrusions less of an affront. It makes them more so, which is why passions are at full boil.

Under normal conditions, Israeli secularists would forge alliances not only with like-minded Palestinians but with others farther afield. But Zionism interferes not only by plunging society into a permanent state of war but by imposing a kind of conceptual prison. If not forbidden, contacts across religious lines grow very complicated in a "faith-driven ethno-state." "You don't understand," educated, secular Israelis say when European and American friends criticize the latest Israeli outrage. "You don't know what it's like to live in a society where a bomb could go off any minute. You don't know." But that is exactly the point. The purpose of Zionism, and of nationalism in general, is to impose a barrier between one group and another, to limit contact and impede understanding. By emphasizing one aspect of human experience, the ethno-religious in the case of Israel, at the expense of all others, it hobbles communication with those outside the fold. The personality is truncated, and political options are reduced. Instead of freely deciding what is to be done, people are forced to follow the logic imposed on them by the state. Hounded by rabbis, terrorized by suicide bombers, hemmed in by nationalism, Israelis see no alternative but to throw in their lot with a strongman like Sharon. The logic is irresistible but suicidal--unless someone can figure a way out of the ideological cage.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031103/lazare/5

[Poppyseedman]

20. Interesting article

I need to read it a couple of times to digest it all.

BTW, thanks for having a rational discussion on this subject.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

21. My pleasure. Thank you. nt.

[Poppyseedman]

4. Yes, former all former Presidents should stay out of politics,

especially international politics. It's a long tradition that needs to be continued.

How much barking and screaming would there be on this forum if bush daddy or raygun, make monthly statements when Clinton was President. They respected the office, I know chimpboy deserves no respect, but the office does.

When and if the Democratic candidate finally gets back into the oval office to clean the thing up in 2008, do you think people will want to hear what the hell chimpboy has to say.

I like Jimmy Carter and think he does a great service as a humanitarian building homes.

[Terran1212]

6. The Carter Center has ...

done so much good in the world. Help set up thousands of elections, save many more people from poverty, destitution.

Jimmy Carter is one of the American goodwill symbols left in the world. People love him.

People want to hear what he has to say.

[Poppyseedman]

9. I applaud his efforts in international elections as a watchdog

Definitely is a positive thing.

But I still think he should refrain from making political statements especially about current political situations, simply because he has no influence to institute any policy change or has any background behind the scenes information. It's bad form.

As for his center, they can make any statement they wish concerning whatever efforts they contribute.

[Terran1212]

5. Israel has killed scores of Palestinians in the last few months

All in contrary to international law in illegally occupied zones.

Do you see why they aren't so keen for peace just yet? Yet Hamas has not struck back once.

Your unfairness and brutalization of the Palestinians will only make the more radicalized.


A great man like Jimmy Carter realizes this.

[Poppyseedman]

7. Please stop, you are making me laugh

"illegally occupied zones."

Yes, of course, Israel is illegally occupying Palestine "rolling eyes"

"Yet Hamas has not struck back once."

Yes, unknown forces are shelling Israel with Kassem rockets "rolling eyes"

Anymore nonsense, you like to post?

[Terran1212]

8. Does the International Court of Justice make you laugh?

And the fact that 99% of its voting members have called the occupation Israel's activities towards the Palestinians, including the building of a seperation wall cutting over 200,000 Palestinians from access to water and farms, illegal?

Funny joke, I guess.

[Poppyseedman]

11. Actually it was fourteen to one vote

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwp_advisory_opinion/imwp_advisory_opinion_20040709.htm

Let me correct you on one point.

The wall has been judged in a advisory opinion to be illegal, the so called occupation has not.

"the Court's advisory opinions are consultative in character and are therefore not binding as such on the requesting bodies."

So it's opinion is not binding and basically meaningless. In other words "a joke"

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icjgnnot.html

So before you start posting about subjects you barely understand, you might want to read up on the topic

[Terran1212]

13. Does that include ICC, World Court, General Assembly?

[Poppyseedman]

14. Anything else?

Israel does not belong to the ICC and there not under it's jurisdiction

The World Court currently does not have any cases or pending decisions concerning this conflict

General Assembly: Go look yourself.

http://www.un.org/ga/60/

[Terran1212]

15. So you admit Israel is an international blackout

That doesn't care for condemnation if its fragrantly illegal and unjustified behavior -- a "rogue state"?

[Poppyseedman]

17. Nice try

Geesh, you must think I was born yesterday.

Israel is a sovereign state. It will take whatever measures it needs to protect it's sovereignty and protect it's citizens. It's hilarious using the term "rogue state" to describe Israel.

Definition of "rogue state" :

Rogue state is a term applied by some international theorists to states considered threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes severely restricting human rights, accused of sponsoring terrorism, and seeking to proliferate weapons of mass destruction.

Israel has come under unrelenting, unprovoked attacks several times simply for the gall of existing as a nation.

Do you really think Israel cares about "condemnation" of all the nations surrounding her bent on destroying her and her people???

Should they just pack up and calmly walk into the sea like good little Jews?

Do I condone some of their behavior, of course not. Is there behavior illegal? No.

Now answer these questions.

Was attacking Israel by it's Arab neighbors illegal in 1967 ?

Are suicide bombers blowing up non-military targets, innocent people, illegal according to the General Assembly ?

Are Kassem rocket attacks illegal?

Like I said nice try.

[Terran1212]

18. "It will take whatever measures it needs to protect it's sovereignty...

and its people"

Funny, the same thing is said from every mass murderer, savage, barbarian, -- and leader of a "rogue state"

That's not enough to say when it consistently violates human rights law and international law and commits expuslions, aggression, torture.

[Poppyseedman]

19. Really

Your profile hobby says: International Affairs/Politics

Certainly you aren't that easily beguiled by propaganda to actually believe all that tripe you just wrote.

Israel isn't perfect and I personally think they are making some serious errors as of late concerning the Hamas election, but because the circumstance it currently exists under, Israel have few options that leave them room to be generous in their tactics.

Like I said. Would you prefer them just to walk into the sea as good little jews???