JOSHUA FRANK: Changing Courses? John Murtha is no Knight in Shining Armor

[Tace]

By Joshua Frank -- World News Trust

It has been sad to see how hastily the antiwar movement gets excited about the utterly unexcitable Democrats. From John Kerry to John Murtha, we’ve been jobbed by the best of ‘em this past year and a half.

Many who oppose this war have latched onto Rep. Murtha’s call to change the course in Iraq. It sounds nice to be sure. Changing the course is absolutely desired by the antiwar movement. Bush and the rest of the hawks in Washington have done nothing but chant a nauseous “stay the course” mantra, so not surprisingly Murtha’s sudden entrance into the debate has been greeted with open arms and wet smooches.

Rep. Murtha may be calling for something a bit different than the neo-con’s Iraq plan, but that doesn’t mean it’s all that.

Murtha, a respected war veteran who championed the Iraq invasion from its inception, is calling for an exit of troops from Iraq. But don’t be fooled, he won’t be bringing them home any time soon. Rather, what Rep. Murtha is really calling for is a “redeployment” of U.S. armed forces.

more

http://worldnewstrust.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=1786

[opihimoimoi]

1. Under Murthas suggestion, the Troops would be redeployed out of

harms way and ready to react should they be needed. Better than the Ducks they are now...

[Tace]

2. I Agree -- It Could Be Better Than Nothing...

unless they are used for an invasion of Syria or Iran.

[Briar]

9. This won't help the Iraqis

currently in harm's way.

Or does nobody care about the Iraqis?

[eridani]

15. Keeping them there won't help the Iraqis either

Very much the opposite, in fact. Our only choices now are bad, and this is one of the least bad ones.

[Fovea]

21. Going back a step or two in this whole sorry mess

We keep calling Saddam a brutal dictator, and it is a fair cop.
But ask yourself, if you were the leader of Iraq, what means would you resort to, to keep it one stable state?

Everyone talks about the balkanization of Iraq as though it were a bad thing. Fact is, Iraq will be having a civil war when we back away. It was prevented from doing so before under the Baathists via brutal oppression coupled with social reform and secularization. It was an artificial state, under European hegemony before that, and multiple Ottoman provinces before that.

The big difference between Saddam, and what will replace him is the secular state part. But that doesn't cause Bush many sleepless nights, does it? It makes me wonder if Kamal Ataturk was alive again, if we would be calling him a brutal dictator?

So in short, the longer Iraq pretends it is one state, the more Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish blood will be spilled, and the more theocratic the south will become.

[MADem]

3. I'll take Murtha's strategic redeployment

Get the kids out of the Humvees, driving around aimlessly as targets, getting blown up and RPG'd. It's Pottery Barn-Plus, in essence. We broke it, we bought it, but we don't have to cut ourselves to ribbons picking up the pieces.

And it stopped the GOP dead in their tracks. Murtha has NEVER been a lefty, he is a well-known hawk on defense, and THAT, more than anything else, is why he was able to MOVE the debate when no one else could, up to now.

Also, it is a starting point for getting help from others.

The way I look at it, you can help those kids with their homework who are from an abusive family, but you can tutor them at the library, as opposed to going over to the house while the drunken parents are slapping each other around.....we just do not need to be up in that mess any more...

[phantom power]

4. Interesting. If you look at it from the viewpoint of Kunstler...

this is to be expected. We're never leaving Iraq, because we're unable to give up the oil. Assuming Kunstler is right.

At any rate, it's clear that the neo-cons will never give up on Iraq, for their own ideological reasons independent of oil geopolitics. Speaking for myself, I'm looking for any leadership that isn't batshit insane, and so from that viewpoint a guy like Murtha is a breath of fresh air.

[dbeach]

5. He sounded good last month

and like others..his agenda seems to be more war in store


til the dems collectively stand up to the bush regime..then bushstory will keep repeating..more for the repukes and less for the rest

I am not expecting much from the dems in DC.

Its up to "We the people.."

[phantom power]

6. McDermott on the Dems and Iraq

I told (McDermott) that most of the people I encounter are genuinely flummoxed about where the Democratic Party leadership is on Iraq.

McDermott told me that there are many in Congress who are truly at the "tipping point." "The 'Out of Iraq Caucus' doesn't fit in a phone booth anymore," he said (it's up to about 70 members). What's more, "there are maybe 30-40 Republicans laying in the weeds, trying to figure out when they can put their heads up without being shot" by the right's attack dogs.

He said that the political cover provided by a well-known hawk like Jack Murtha (D-PA) going public with a call to withdrawal couldn't be overestimated. "Anybody who goes out on point is immediately attacked as unpatriotic," he told me. " I could have said the same thing - in fact I have-- and they would have called me 'Baghdad Jim' or whatever." He said that Murtha had "changed the debate" in DC.

(...)

I thought I'd share that uncharacteristically insider view. We're often impatient with these guys, and usually with very good reason. But it's also important to have some perspective on the process. The right -- with their allies in the conservative media --created a toxic climate in which they were able to bully people into supporting their war. Turning around a bunch of Dem politicos who staked out positions in that climate is like turning around a tanker: it's maddeningly slow, but once it gets going it also has massive and unstoppable momentum.

http://gadflyer.com/flytrap/index.php?Week=200549#2403

[MADem]

8. It's a good point--we got shoved into this corner by thugs, and now

we have to pull our way out, one inch, one vote at a time.

Getting the troops out of the line of fire is a first step--and it beats leaving them there to get blown up and shot up.

[Cha]

14. Thanks for that post..

joshua frank should read it.

[K-W]

16. Why?

One should both be able to undesrtand the pivotal role murtha may play in catalyzing a new and strong stance on the war from the Democrats and the fact that Murtha's redeployment is not a withdrawl plan.

[confludemocrat]

7. Remember this is the Dem. Party. I'll take what I can get that's even 1/2-

way decent. But if this is replaced by an "air war" again as in Clintons time then we remain in the same disastrous position of the world hating the US. If they end up firing on civilian vehicles from the air as they do now on the ground then we may be in the same boat.

But here's a part of the story that highlights what is as messed up as Kerry's (but not Edwards call for their being out) failure to address this matter:

"It is just more of the same and the antiwar movement should in no way get excited about Murtha’s offering. He still wants U.S. bases in Iraq and still believes the United States -- or rather Halliburton -- should lead the way of reconstruction efforts in the battered land."
i.e., Murtha said nothing about the corruption or the death-dealing our presence has meant

the Kucinich plan is the only one that is based on morality and decency

[blm]

13. BS. Kerry said clearly NO permanent bases and NO permanent INTERESTS in

Iraq. He repeated it just yesterday on Face the Nation.

Turn over the bases and turn over construction to the Iraqis.

Why you insist on mischaracterizing Kerry's plan is beyond comprehension.

[confludemocrat]

17. Never said anything about Kerry/bases. Criticism was of Murtha on bases

Mighty hair-trigger aren't we? Kerry is lacking in most else, especialy his belief in ANY form of success to be had in Iraq. That is where he and Murtha part company. But I will take Murthas essential stand: leave ASAP, 80% Iraqis want us out (coopted by Kerry on Sunday-whoa, down boy/girl, mr/ms bureau of land management-that's good, actually, now follow through on the essential meaning of that), the military is broken and on and on, and as Murtha says, his is the only plan that make sense to him. Kerrys "plan' is packed with "outs".

I don't see why everything is all or nothing with you. anything your quick scan of the post you detect as negative, you assume it's against Kerry. This is not a sports game, I am not fanatically rooting for someone, while you fanatically root for someone else. You can stay within those parameters as you sem to like to dwell there. Kerry has assumed the mantle for himself as being very vocal on this, but I don't think he measures up. His plan, his rhetoric, his haughty outlook.

[blm]

18. Permanent interests means the oil corporations, Halliburtons and Bechtels.

THAT'S where you erred. You said it was in Edwards' remarks but not Kerry's. And you do pursue every opportunity to attack Kerry, and often do so in replies to my posts, so please don't play innocent today.

[confludemocrat]

19. Wrong again. Kerry never brought up Halliburton, Edwards did that's

worth a lot. he shows a bit of getting it. Murtha, similar to Kerry, didn't mention that glaringly corrupt blight on the already disgusting shameful mess. Nevertheless, Murtha shows a good deal more of getting it, despite that tacit acceptance of that element of the massive fuckup. JFK is still stumbling around, unable to get a fix on which way the wind is blowing.

[blm]

20. PERMANENT INTERESTS - meaning: the corporations who want to stay there

and make money off of Iraq.

You just can't stand that Kerry submitted the most detailed withdrawal plan, so you don't care how much you need to distort and misinform in your posts.

[Carolab]

10. Typical Joshua Frank. It's NEVER enough for him.

What a whiner.

[K-W]

11. How dare he not agree with you.

I mean people who disagree with you are such whiners because what you think is right is NEVER enough for them.

[Carolab]

12. Ouch.

Thanks for the spanking.

Sorry that I don't like Joshua.

[No Exit]

22. Judging from his website, Frank is one of the people who are

disillusioned with both the major parties.

Fine. But if Murtha were an independent, I think Josh's piece would have been a lot different.