Venezuela getting ready to confront the United States

[ECH1969]

Oil rich Venezuela scared of the same fate as Iraq, is planning some extreme measures to confront United States in case it is attacked. Venezuela is fast spreading arms, money and military training tactics to left-wing groups in Ecuador and six other Latin American countries. According to some international think tanks, the plan is to rage insurgency from outside Venezuela in case Venezuela is attacked and occupied.

According to media sources, left-wing groups in Ecuador and six other Latin American countries have received training in urban guerrilla war tactics from Venezuela this year, The Miami Herald reported Oct. 22, citing an Ecuadorian military intelligence report. While the report does not directly link Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to the training, it does identify two Caracas installations -- one belonging to the Venezuelan army and the other to the Ministry of Defense -- where the training took place.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/5132.asp

[Cha]

1. Kinda like what's happening

inside Iraq now.

[adwon]

2. Nice cover, Hugo

Spreading arms, money, and military training throughout the continent? I'm sure the other govts will love him when their own insurgencies start. This is nothing more than spreading his own little 'revolution' under the guise of self-defense.

[William769]

3. I was just thinking the same thing.

[wookie294]

9. If American can spread arms around, why can't Hugo ?

This is nothing more than spreading his own little 'revolution' under the guise of self-defense.

Yeah, just as the USA has been doing for decades.

Why can't Venezuela do it too? If America goes to war with Venezuela, I hope we lose that war, just as we're losing the war in Iraq (thankfully).

[adwon]

10. ?

I made a simple point: Chavez is lying about his reasons for shipping arms around the continent. His neighbors are unlikely to appreciate the gesture because he's likely arming their opponents. I just appreciated the brazenness of the lie.

[wookie294]

12. I don't think he's lying

I think Hugo is scared of a US invasion. That's a reasonable fear since corporate America and the media are "sounding the alarm bells" about him. It's amazing. I've heard television pundits talking about Hugo the way they talked about WMD. lol. The USA has a long record of using the CIA to overthrow Latin American governments. Hugo has good reason to be very worried.

[adwon]

14. Once again...?

How does arming groups not affiliated with a government in other countries contribute to his defense? That's the part that makes no sense. It's not as though the Marines would have to pass through other countries to get to him; he's got a coastline.

If he had reason to truly fear an invasion, arming his own people would be one thing. Arming other countries' people against a supposed invasion of your own country? Bullshit. I'd like to hear of someone who ever did that.

If his claims were remotely honest, he'd be giving the other governments of the region sweetheart deals on those AKs he just bought. The only reason you arm nongovernmental groups in other countries is to destabilize those countries' governments.

[wookie294]

16. Okay

How does arming groups not affiliated with a government in other countries contribute to his defense?

The USA has armed groups not affiliated with a government many times (the Contras in Nicaragua, the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, Iranian militants in 1954, etc). The stated reason by the USA? National security of the American people. If the USA invades Venezuela, "militants" from neighboring countries can help wage a defense.

He is also arming his own people, not just people in neighboring countries.

I agree with you that part of Hugo's reason for arming leftists in neighboring countries is to help promote his ideology in those countries, just like the USA does with its own ideology in foreign countries everyday. If the USA can do it, why can't Hugo?

[Piotr]

32. Context

"The USA has armed groups not affiliated with a government many times (the Contras in Nicaragua, the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, Iranian militants in 1954, etc). The stated reason by the USA? National security of the American people. If the USA invades Venezuela, "militants" from neighboring countries can help wage a defense."

This time period was the Cold War. The Soviet Union was doing the same.

The Cold War has been over for 14 years; Chávez's rhethoric is reminiscent of the 60s.

"He is also arming his own people, not just people in neighboring countries."

Yes. However, this can be seen as a means to remain in power, for the only ones armed are his own personal reservists (500,000 people), the army, and his Bolivarian Circles, all who support him. Other citizens are not even allowed to own a firearm.

"I agree with you that part of Hugo's reason for arming leftists in neighboring countries is to help promote his ideology in those countries, just like the USA does with its own ideology in foreign countries everyday. If the USA can do it, why can't Hugo?"

Because this was a long time ago. Also, doing something reprehensible because someone else does it does not justify it, except in self-defence.

[cliss]

33. Are there any oil-rich countries which we haven't taken over?

I'm thinking of
1) Norway
2) Saudi Arabia
3) other Middle East countries (although many of them are puppet states).
4) Canada (Alberta has I believe $1 trillion bucks worth of tar sands).
5) Iran - not yet.

I think Chavez sees some similarities between his country and Iraq. He wants to avoid that at all costs. I agree that Venezuela should do everything it can to protect itself.

[killbotfactory]

4. "According to media sources"

That makes this news item immediately suspect.

[sarcasmo]

6. Exactly

Sources told us. Wasn't the subway scare in New York based on a "credible source from Europe".

[killbotfactory]

7. That, as well as the media in Venezuela being violently anti-chavez

Even going so far as participating in a coup.

[Bacchus39]

23. the media of Ecuador too??

n/t

[1932]

19. Which media source? The 700 Club?

[Judi Lynn]

21. No doubt! I always turn to fascists for the latest news, don't you?

[callady]

5. THAT SOUNDS like a bit of a planted story- Being Floated elsewhere

QUITO - An Ecuadorean military intelligence report alleges that leftists from Ecuador and seven other Latin American nations received guerrilla training in Venezuela this year from backers of President Hugo Chávez.

The report does not link Chávez personally to the training in explosives, weapons and urban guerrilla tactics. But it notes that part of the training took place in two Caracas military bases, one used by the army reserves and another that houses the Defense Ministry.

And in a concluding section, it says that backers of the Venezuelan president, ``with covert support from the government of Hugo Chávez . . . have strengthened incipient subversive movements.''

The Herald repeatedly sought the reaction of Venezuelan Vice President José Vicente Rangel, who most often speaks for the government, and Gen. Julio Quintero Viloria, commander of the reserves. Neither responded.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/12972069.htm

POSTED HERE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1871224

[cliss]

8. I think Venezuela is working hard to arm itself.

Chavez has been training his local militias. About 6 months ago, he ordered about 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles from Russia. RumsFailed said, "what on earth would they need them for?"

Chavez has traveled to Iran, to Cuba, even to India to sign deals with other countries, and in the process he's been doing a little PR of his own.

Can you blame him? I for one think he is a formidable enemy to the United States, even though he's not an official one. Because he sells 1.7 million barrels of oil per day to us. So that makes him - our trading partner. Sort of. Potential enemy/trading partner.

Also, it must gall Washington to think that all the money we pay Chavez for his oil, goes to arm his country.

Can't have it all, RumsFool.

[AintIgreat]

11. Go Hugo Go Hugo Go!!

[Judi Lynn]

13. So when did two paragraphs written by an Indian editorial writer,

based upon a conspicuously hard-right spun article which appeared in the Miami Herald, which caters to anti-Chavez Venzuelans, and right-wing Cubans in south Florida, serve as LATE BREAKING NEWS?

The ORIGINAL article, upon which Sonia Joshi elaborated in the EDITORIAL remarks, has already been posted to allow access to the entire article. Please refer to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1871224

There is NO evidence of Venezuela's arming other countries. This is a childish, ignorant attempt to misinform. It won't work around people who read regularly.

[TiredOfLies]

15. come on

where to hell does he think we're going to get this invaison Army from? first we have to get draft going, draft a half million men, bring troops home from Iraq to train them, it's foolish to go on.

[wookie294]

18. Private armies

The US army doesn't need to invade Venezuela. We can use either the CIA or hired mercenaries who would work with local Venezuelans who oppose Chavez. The USA waged war against Central America during the 1980s without the people of the USA hearing about it. It was all done in secret. We financed death squads that murdered thousands of people merely seeking to end the domination of the land by a few landowner families.

[Judi Lynn]

20. You may remember the discovery not long ago of Colombian paramilitaries

holed up in a ranch near Caracas, on property owned by a Cuban "exile," Roberto Alonso, a name well-known in the Miami right-wing Cuban community:

Alleged Colombian Paramilitaries
On May 9, 2004, Venezuelan police raided a ranch in Buruta, on the outskirts of the capital Caracas, arresting fifty-five Colombian men. The ranch was owned by Roberto Alonso, a Cuban exile active in the anti-Castro and a leader of the Venezuelan opposition group Bloque Democrático Shortly thereafter, they arrested 71 more at the neighboring ranch owned by Gustavo Cisneros, a Cuban-Venezuelan Chávez opponent. Venezuela reported that one of the detainees said they had been offered 500,000 Colombian pesos to work on the farm, before being informed upon their arrival that they would have to prepare for an attack on a National Guard base, with the goal of stealing weapons to potentially arm a 3,000-strong militia. <1>

According to other detainees and the Colombian families of many of them, most of those arrested were apparently unemployed poor peasants, some from the Cúcuta area, many of whom had at some point in their lives done military service in Colombia and thus qualified as reservists. They'd have been promised to work in Venezuela but were later betrayed <2>.

The families of 68 detainees announced to the Colombian press in June 2004 their intention of travelling to Venezuela to argue for their relatives freedom, claiming that they fell to a setup. <3>. Another relative told the Venezuelan opposition press that the prisoners were being mistreated while in captivity <4>. The official press reported a government denial of this claim.

The family of a Venezuelan National Guard Captain arrested and accused of being implicated in the supposed paramilitary plot likewise denounced in the opposition press the possibility of a political persecution against those that would not share the Venezuelan revolutionary process. He was said not to be recognized when he was presented to the Colombian detainees.<5>.

Some women and underaged children were also included among those captured suspected paramilitaries. The latter were speedily repatriated to Colombia by Venezuelan authorities <6>. The alleged paramilitaries were caught wearing Venezuelan Army uniforms and apparently had a single gun in their possession in the immediate area. At least two (other sources speak of between three and five) suspected paramilitary commanders were also reported to be in custody.
(snip/...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_planned_Venezuelan_coup_in_2004





Improvised observation post at the farm where Colombian paramilitaries were captured last Sunday.
Credit: Carlos Rios - Radio Nacional de Venezuela



Barracs at the property of opposition activist Robert Alonso located in the outskirts of Caracas. Colombian paramilitaries lived there for 46 days in preparation for attacks on military bases.
Credit: Carlos Rios - Radio Nacional de Venezuela

[Bacchus39]

24. and the FARC too

who were apparently invited to go there.

[Judi Lynn]

25. You'll need to provide a credible source for that. n/t

[Bacchus39]

26. repeat

I have already posted this and its no secret

http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20030908-075735-2592r

remember the "kidnapping" of the FARC leader Granja. of course, Chavez tried to deflect the criticism by blaming Colombia and of course the USA

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=682&id=91612005

interesting that the venezuelan authorities involved were from the anti-kidnapping and extortion unit.

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/venezuela_colombia_conflict.htm


http://www.fac.mil.co/?idcategoria=5155

http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050920-093935-1800r

[Judi Lynn]

27. Your first source, which claims Hugo Chavez is involved in agression

against Colombia is owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and, as an utterly untrustworthy source after the sale of the organization is passing on typical looney Moon-approved right-wing-serving propaganda. Pity. He destroyed a perfectly good wire service.



UPI owner, Rev. Moon, Moon with pal, Rev. Falwell
One of your next three sources is in Spanish, and I'm unable to read it. The other two don't indicate information Chavez is involved with Colombia's FARC.

You should provide information illuminating your claim. Your repetition of the charge is familiar, it's been done to death here at D.U. by visiting freeps and South Florida idiots.

.....The democratically elected government of Hugo Chavez has been accused of everything from linking up with North Korea, supplying arms to the Colombian FARC guerrillas and funding the "subversive" MAS in Bolivia, to forming an axis of evil with Cuba's Castro, starting an arms race in Latin America, and harbouring Al-Qaeda terrorists. A recent article in the National Review (which appeared on April 11, the day of the third anniversary of the coup in Venezuela), carried the title "Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez constitute an axis of evil". In this extremely belligerent article, Otto Reich, until recently Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs, openly advocated a policy of "confronting" the "emerging axis of subversion".

There is no substance to any of these accusations, for which not the slightest shred of proof is offered. They are just meant to create an impression the kind of impression that can be used to justify an act of aggression. As we learned long ago from Josef Goebbels, even the most blatant lie, if it is repeated often enough, is taken to be the truth. In the same way, the lie that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction was used as an excuse for the criminal invasion of Iraq.

Everybody now knows that it was a lie, but at the time enough people believed it to permit a naked act of aggression to be presented as an act of national self-defence. Now history is being repeated.

When pressed for more details on the allegations about "Venezuelan shortcomings with respect to the counter narcotics issue", Adam Ereli, Deputy Spokesman for the US Department of State, on March 30th, could not think of anything coherent to say. He merely mumbled: "Not really. I'll look and see what we've said on the past, but off the top of my head I can't give you a detailed answer." On such flimsy "evidence" is the case for armed aggression against Venezuela being constructed in Washington.
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1431

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm "cutting and posting" helpful information pointing to the subject mentioned earlier in the thread: Colombian paramilitaries invading Venezuela, for which there IS proof:

Venezuela and Colombia share a common, semi porous, 1370 miles border where drug trafficking, kidnapping and smuggling are common. Since 2003 there have been several incursions by Colombian paramilitary forces into Venezuela's western provinces of Zulia and Tachira killing civilians and National Guard troops, both a s a provocation and a threat. In July 2003 Chavez ordered an additional 2,700 troops to reinforce security, in addition to the 20,000 already posted along the Colombian border <28>. In 2001 the US State Department put two Colombian revolutionary groups, FARC and ELN on "terrorist list", accusing them of drug trafficking-smuggling, disrupting country's democratic process and sabotaging country's economy. US also charged that Venezuela facilitates Middle Eastern terrorist to enter the US via Venezuelan territory <30>. In contrast, in 2004, US removed Colombian paramilitary force, which has one of the worst human right recorded, from the terror list, where it had been placed three years previously <31>. This gives the US military a clean chit to supply paramilitary with arms.

Grounds are also being laid on a political-ideological level. In 2004, in his annual Posture Statement , US Southern Commander General James Hill identified "radical populism" (Venezuela) and gangs (revolutionary guerillas) as major dangers facing the region. At the same time a new doctrine, called Effective Sovereignty", was developed by the Bush administration which contends that the US national security is threaded by Latin American governments failure to exercise control over the "ungoverned spaces", such as Amazon basin, which invites unlawful elements of societies. This doctrine permits US to intervene in other countries to protect and maintain its security. And permits a steady flow of weapons and military personnel for this region <32>

In fact attempts to foment a revolt/coup started three months prior to Chavez's referendum victory in August 2004. In May 2004, about 120 members of Colombian paramilitary, wearing Venezuelan military uniform, landed clandestinely near Venezuelan capital to link up with other anti national groups and disgruntled unions within the country to foment revolt, sabotage and help remove Chavez. Most of them were apprehended by local police <33>.
(snip/...)

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=129&num=15402&printer=1

[Bacchus39]

28. hmmm and you posted

from a blatantly pro-Chavez site venanalysis and then claim I use biased sources. no escaping that Granja was in Venezuela. you are unable to refute the info so lash out at the messenger.

I thought you were a little more familiar with Ven with all your postings so I included a Spanish link. too bad, most of the info on Chavez pro and against is in Spanish.

more on ELN (rebel) link in Venezuela. http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=582

I take Chavez for what he is, a politician not the savior. again, Colombia could certainly use some cooperation from their neighbors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4675485.stm

more http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/confres/monitor/mntr6_americas.html

[Judi Lynn]

29. There's nothing in your second and third articles which confirms

anything derogatory against Hugo Chavez, nor which indicates he has been aiding and abetting Colombian rebel forces, of course.

What IS your first source all about? This explanation of its workings from the site leads a person to see it's objectives are going to follow whatever _Bush dictates concerning any foreign policy. Mutual interests.

ICT - Countering Terrorism’s Global Reach
Since the terror attacks of 11 September 2001, the demand for the information and services provided by The International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) has grown substantially throughout the world. ICT’s US office, opened at the beginning of November in Arlington, Virginia, will strengthen the Institute's ties with research institutes and government agencies in the US dealing with counter-terrorism.

Under the leadership of Shabtai Shavit, former head of Mossad and current chairman of the ICT board of directors, and ICT Executive Director Dr. Boaz Ganor, the Institute’s researchers and scholars will continue to conduct research on counter-terrorism and provide insights on the fight against terrorism. "The fact that international policy on countering terrorism is set in the US capital made it imperative for ICT to establish an office in Washington", says Dr. Ganor.
(snip/...)

Odd.

I'm not interested in defending my source. It uses real information which is available in any number of other resources. It doesn't (((( spin )))) , shred, mutilate information, nor take creative liberties, unlike corporate media sources.

[Bacchus39]

30. if you don't want to believe it

than that is your choice and you can just close your eyes and cover your ears if all the news about Venezuela and Chavez is not favorable.

I guess its a good thing you don't speak Spanish then.

http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-5-16/28805.html

[Judi Lynn]

31. Your article doesn't indicate Hugo Chavez deals with Colombian rebels,

does it?

Anyone who read about the Colombian capture of the man who was in Venezuela under a false name realizes the contention concerned Colombia's overriding Venezuelan authority by rushing in and grabbing him without going through the appropriate channels.

That's primitive, and you can damned well believe Colombia wouldn't be trying that in this country.

But you know that, don't you? Everyone else does.

[Peace Patriot]

17. How on earth can we deal with the fascists who have taken over our...

...government if people at DU so easily fall prey to crap like this--disinformation. Please, people, inform yourselves!

A good place to start:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

[evworldeditor]

22. Wouldn't You Be Just a Tad Concerned?

Venezuela sits on 77 billion barrels of conventional oil, 270 billion of unconventional oil (heavy crude and bitumen) and 151 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, the second largest such reserves in the Western Hemisphere after the US.

Even more critically to the future, half of its 890,000 square miles are covered in tropical rainforest. Why's that important?

Read Robert Armstrong's essay: "From Petro to Agro: Seeds of a New Economy"

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/DefHor/DH20/DH_20.pdf

[Demeter]

34. Remember "The Mouse That Roared"?

Leonard Wibberly wrote the screamingly funny book (it was Cold-War satire); Peter Sellers starred in the cinema adaptation. Chavez could actually pull it off. And we might be better for it. Life imitates art, yet again.