Sen. Reid says Dems must accept "'Real ID Act"...

[dbeach]

Orwell rolls as 1984 military / police state gets closer for US citizens as the "Real ID " gets in the act..and what an act it has become!

Power elites get more protection and law abiding citizens get more punishing restrictions.Your tax dollars at work against you..

Excuse me for asking BUT have any 9/11 terrorists been caught and prosecuted?

9/11 Scorecard:

Terrorits = 3000 plus deaths

Dept. of Justice = 0 crimnals prosecuted

"http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050426-121958-7570r.htm
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said yesterday that Democrats will have to accept the Real I.D. Act -- written by House Republicans to limit asylum claims and crack down on illegal immigrants obtaining driver's licenses -- as part of the final emergency war-spending bill.
Under Real I.D.'s provisions, the secretary of Department of Homeland Security could waive laws in border areas, allowing completion of a section of border fence near San Diego; judges would have more discretion in deciding asylum petitions; and the categories of those who can be deported for association with terrorist groups would be expanded.
But the most wide-ranging provision would set standards for government-issued IDs......."

[Selatius]

1. This is not how you fight illegal immigration/terrorism

All this will do is create another item which will be forged in due time, which will be used both by terrorists and illegal immigrants. I guarantee it.

A more common sense approach would be to increase spending on border security as well as spending on enforcement of the law (busting firms who hire illegal aliens knowingly). If you want to go further, look into adopting trade policies that are balanced and benefit both 3rd world nations and the industrialized US. Also look into a reformed foreign policy.

If you're not bombing nations into the Stone Age and are not busy trying to open countries up to exploitation by mulinational corporations, you're going to dry up the supply of would-be illegal immigrants, and you're going to have a lot less folks who are angry enough at you to kill you running around.

I find Reid's proposal absolutely unacceptable.

[dbeach]

3. Right on the money [literally]..

"common sense" is severly lacking in todays pols many of whom are involved in highly questionable to conflict of interest to possible criminal activities ..all courtesy of the US taxpayer

[paulk]

7. it's not Reid's proposal

he's just stating the reality of the situation - the Republican's have the votes -

Negotiators are trying to hammer out a compromise between the Senate's $81 billion supplemental spending bill and the House's $81.4 billion version this week. House Republicans have said they will insist the immigration security provisions remain in the bill.

Mr. Reid, Nevada Democrat, said his party will not be able to stop them.

"They did it on purpose," he told reporters yesterday. "They put it on a supplemental which they knew you couldn't stop. I've had a senator come to me and say, 'We're going to filibuster this.' I said, 'Get real. It's not going to happen. It's a defense bill.' "

[bunkerbuster1]

26. right, because if you vote against a defense bill

no matter what the circumstances, Zell Miller will call you a "pacifist" at the Reep National Convention.

Holy mother of fuck, where are the "oppostion party's" balls?

[Worst Username Ever]

2. I'm looking forward to the national-id burning parties.

[dbeach]

4. I will bring my vintage zippo lighter...

[jwirr]

5. ID problems are getting worse! And it all

seems to be directed at American citizens, as if we are the enemy. I went in to change my address on my bank account today and they were not going to do it because my old address was still on my drivers license. I have had the account for 25 years! One of our local post offices will not mail media mail unless you bring it in opened so they can see what you are shipping. This is ridiculous - we are not the enemy.

[sarcasmo]

18. If we have a National ID card does that make us all Nationalist's?

[applegrove]

6. I think it is a good idea. Now for the NRA. They need to be attached

to a database of some sort.

I just don't think we should waste our civil servants by not giving them all the information possible. I'd rather see all the money that will be saved by such a program (in terms of investigative hours) go to the nitty gritty investigation.

Nothing wrong with Iris scans in my eyes either.

I agree it is tough on illegals. Too bad that some monsters ruin it for us all. In Canada the driver's license is a legal document and I think illegal immigrants have a hard time already getting one. You need to show landed immigrant status, a birth certificate, ... or you can get a temporary diplomatic one with the right papers.

We have illegals in Canada too. I don't think that making driver's licenses severe licenses to get ruin a country.


Remind your republican friends when you argue with them that such a system is about imposing regulations on the "car" industry. And that regulations are the fastest and most effective way of getting to the heart of a problem. Even if it keeps some people from buying cars.

[ProgressiveConn]

8. Who has the best arguement against National IDs?

Sell me on opposing them. =)

[Technowitch]

10. How about the freedom not to have the Federal Gov't...

...tracking my every move? It's called the right to privacy.

Just a thought.

[ProgressiveConn]

11. Why would anything at all change?

Now don't get me wrong I don't trust this administration with this but then again I don't trust this administration with anything.

How would a national id card be anything worse than a drivers license?

[Technowitch]

12. Because they're talking about making it mandatory to have one

And mandatory to have one would then come to be 'mandatory to carry one'.

And mandatory to carry one would then come to require, 'mandatory to produce it upon demand.'

Right now, if a person wishes, one is not obligated to carry an ID all the time. Yes, you must have a license when driving. Yes, an ID is often required for certain transactions. However, there are plenty of people out there who have no DL at all.

But if I'm just walking down the street, minding my own business, why should I be obliged to have an ID card in my pocket? It's worse, because they want me to have to have an ID, even when I'm not driving.

[WhiteTara]

13. I have traveled by car extensively in Mexico

and randomly along roads are trucks filled with soldiers who
set up portable blockades and you have to produce your papers.
 That's what I see in the future of national ID cards.  I was
doing nothing inapporpriate, but it was very disconcerting
nonetheless.

[pagandem4justice]

44. Civil Disobedience ideas?

I'm sure it will be a requirement to have one, but then what if my card "accidentally" gets swiped by a magnet a few dozen times?

Sure, "they" will still have my info on database, and the number on the front can be used by law enforcement to verify ID as with normal drivers' licenses, but myriad other snoops, hackers, etc. won't be able to access my info just because I'm cashing a check.

Don't get me wrong ... I *loathe* this Act. But it's going to pass, and unless there's an uproar from hell, it will be implemented. We need to figure out methods for civil disobedience if that's the case.

Then again, once the gun nuts and militia people get ahold of this knowledge (they're a little slow on the uptake), it'll never be fully implemented. "Mark o' the Beast" and all.

:evilgrin:

[Gormy Cuss]

46. Yeah, what about the Mark of the Beast?

Come on, we're one step away from having an RFID device implanted in our hands.

REAL ID will be as good as the INS act of 1986 in its stated goal of curbing illegal immigration. Prior to 1986, your employer was only required to make you state for the record that you were a citizen or, if not, to show your authorization to work. After 1986 we all became suspect. Illegal immigration has risen steadily since. REAL ID ups the ante --- now we're assumed to be illegal until proven otherwise.

REAL ID will require that states keep electronic copies of documents used to validate identity. There are insufficient protections in the act to restrict sharing of the data. The government will be able to share it with law enforcement, private contractors, etc.

Don't worry though --- your gun ownership data is still protected.
How far are we from a tyrannical government?

[txaslftist]

30. How about this argument (it's from a republican congressman)

Mr. Speaker:

I rise in strong opposition to HR 418, the REAL ID Act. This bill purports to make us safer from terrorists who may sneak into the United States, and from other illegal immigrants. While I agree that these issues are of vital importance, this bill will do very little to make us more secure. It will not address our real vulnerabilities. It will, however, make us much less free. In reality, this bill is a Trojan horse. It pretends to offer desperately needed border control in order to stampede Americans into sacrificing what is uniquely American: our constitutionally protected liberty.

What is wrong with this bill?

The REAL ID Act establishes a national ID card by mandating that states include certain minimum identification standards on driver’s licenses. It contains no limits on the government’s power to impose additional standards. Indeed, it gives authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to unilaterally add requirements as he sees fit.

Supporters claim it is not a national ID because it is voluntary. However, any state that opts out will automatically make non-persons out of its citizens... It is absurd to call this voluntary.

Republican Party talking points on this bill, which claim that this is not a national ID card, nevertheless endorse the idea that “the federal government should set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification such as driver’s licenses.” So they admit that they want a national ID but at the same time pretend that this is not a national ID.

This bill establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated database of highly personal information about American citizens: at a minimum their name, date of birth, place of residence, Social Security number, and physical and possibly other characteristics. What is even more disturbing is that ... this bill creates a massive database of sensitive information on American citizens that will be shared with Canada and Mexico!

This bill could have a chilling effect on the exercise of our constitutionally guaranteed rights. It re-defines "terrorism" in broad new terms that could well include members of firearms rights and anti-abortion groups, or other such groups as determined by whoever is in power at the time. There are no prohibitions against including such information in the database as information about a person’s exercise of First Amendment rights or about a person’s appearance on a registry of firearms owners.

This legislation gives authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to expand required information on driver’s licenses, potentially including such biometric information as retina scans, finger prints, DNA information, and even Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) radio tracking technology. Including such technology as RFID would mean that the federal government, as well as the governments of Canada and Mexico, would know where Americans are at all times of the day and night.

There are no limits on what happens to the database of sensitive information on Americans once it leaves the United States for Canada and Mexico – or perhaps other countries. Who is to stop a corrupt foreign government official from selling or giving this information to human traffickers or even terrorists? Will this uncertainty make us feel safer?

What will all of this mean for us? When this new program is implemented, every time we are required to show our driver’s license we will, in fact, be showing a national identification card. We will be handing over a card that includes our personal and likely biometric information, information which is connected to a national and international database.

H.R. 418 does nothing to solve the growing threat to national security posed by people who are already in the U.S. illegally. Instead, H.R. 418 states what we already know: that certain people here illegally are "deportable." But it does nothing to mandate deportation.

...

H.R. 418 does what legislation restricting firearm ownership does. It punishes law-abiding citizens. Criminals will ignore it. H.R. 418 offers us a false sense of greater security at the cost of taking a gigantic step toward making America a police state.

I urge my colleagues to vote “NO” on the REAL ID Act of 2005.

[bemildred]

9. I don't have to "accept" anything. nt

[Daphne08]

14. Hello, Patriot Act II

Sometimes I think Orwell was psychic.

[usrbs]

15. I actually don't think a national ID card is so bad

The driver license is already used as an ID, causing problems to those who don't drive. If they don't couple this with a requirement to have it on you at all times I'm in favor. I grew up in Israel, where there is a national ID, and in many ways I had more freedom than here.

[Daphne08]

16. Americans identify the National ID card with:

Police State
Fascism
Totalitarianism
The former U.S.S.R.
Orwell's "1984"
etc., etc., etc.

This isn't going to be well received by Americans since it will be perceived as being very... un-American.

[dbeach]

17. Simpy put...

"This isn't going to be well received by Americans since it will be perceived as being very... un-American. "

Dangers of this intrusion are down the future roads as privacy becomess usurped by security..

Illegal aliens don't need Natl ID...

Soviets had checkpoints al over towns and cities keeping folks on the defensive and fearful of being blamed for anyhing ..nothing...

{my wife grew up in USSR}

Being stopped for no crime as in security checks at airports is not me idea of a free society and with the busheviks ..they have no intention of making my life or yours more comfortable..

They only in it for the money and power and control andcuz they may actuallly believe that they are entitled to write laws as they see fit..

[Boo Boo]

19. To bad Reid can't find a way to put

up a stink over this even though it will pass. The NRA hates the Real ID Act, so finding a way to bash Repubs over this would sow division within the ranks.

[bunkerbuster1]

27. Here's a way:

Filibuster the damn thing. Make a stink. Shame them.

[realFedUp]

20. Reid says he's opposed to national ID card

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aNNX3hvtLFnM&refer=us

snip..halfway down

"Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada said he's opposed to adding Real ID to a war-funding bill."

[realFedUp]

21. Senator Dick Durbin says this would repeal earlier legislation

http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

Sweeping ID Bill Faces Opposition in the Senate. A bipartisan coalition of senators is urging debate on a bill that would establish a federal mandate for identification standards across the United States. The REAL ID Act would impose technological standards and verification procedures on the states, many of which are beyond the current capacity of the federal government. The bill is opposed by the National Governors Association, the National Conference of State Legislatures, the Council of State Governments, and the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators. Sen. Richard Durbin also expressed concern this week REAL ID would repeal earlier legislation that contained "carefully crafted language -- bipartisan language -- to establish standards for States issuing driver's licenses." (April 22)

[realFedUp]

22. the Real ID Act would lead to horrific delays at DMVs, costly

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/04/26/some_fear_law_would_crate_national_id_card/

at the bottom, snip-

''This bill has not received a single hearing in either chamber of Congress, so the challenges it presents for states have never received any attention," said Cheye Calvo of the National Conference of State Legislatures. ''It does much more than just deny driver's licenses to illegal immigrants."

State legislators and governors say that the Real ID Act would lead to horrific delays at motor vehicle bureaus, that it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars more than Congress thinks, and that it would impose an unrealistic three-year deadline for having the verification system in place. Continued...

[beevul]

23. Whats to stop them...

Whats to stop them from putting RFID tags into national ID cards after a "terrorist" attack kills 3000 more people??

There are just too many potential ways such a system could be abused, IMHO, versus used for any proper function.

[Eloriel]

24. Govt-issued IDs, eh?

Here we go. How long before we have those implantable chips? My guess, only a few years. Some people have them already, by their own choice.

[chlamor]

25. ...

[Daphne08]

28. For the first time in my life (and I'm old),

I'm afraid of my government. First the Patriot Act and now this!

[DinahMoeHum]

29. WTF is next?? Pass laws? like there used to be in South Africa?

in the bad old days of apartheid?


:grr:

[realFedUp]

31. dbeach, you're wrong on where Reid stands....

he opposes the Real ID act.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3603421

DU a divider not a uniter?

[applegrove]

32. How can the airports be safe inside the USA if they cannot even

count on a driver's license to be absolutely sure?

I say we take a pass on fighting this.

I feel sorry for the illegal immigrants. But they are however, illegal. I don't know if the USA should have an amnesty at this time and then get all the illegals with proper credentials and IDs.

Don't know what the answer is. But strict IDs would seem like something we could do if we want the country to be safer from the kind of terrorism that took place on 9/11. Imagine if none of those freaks could have traveled anywhere.

I say we get used to iris scans and be done with it.

There are more heinous things going on in Washington. Like total bankruptcy. Like tearing apart the middle class from the poor.

Don't have all the answers. But this does not jump out at me as horrific. A tough, tough measure for sure.

[Daphne08]

33. If you don't think this is frightening,

please Google REAL ID and see what comes up!! You will find both Conservative and Liberal groups against this. That means it is a bad bill.

THEN, check out the ACLU site:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18112&c=206&SubsiteID=58

[applegrove]

34. I am sure civil libertarians are against it as well as many, many others.

I don't know what they have attached to the bill either and cannot read right now.

But don't you think people should have to show some really fierce legal document before they get on a plane?

Cause if it isn't this then it will be passports for all planes, then all trains, and on and on.

We cannot harp on the one side that things have to be safe and not go and undo the mistakes of the past. Surely we know that the suicide bombers had real names that were on several watch lists and now that we have the computers 'all systems attached to one another from 20 different government agencies'.. we can't undo that all my making driver's licenses easy to fake?

That is my thinking. The whole system works or it does not. How can we possibly demand that they have better computers when they cannot have any way of implementing that knowledge against an ID Card that is really tough?

I think it is really uncomfortable in regards to the immigration issue. And I hope that they do an amnesty or something so that those people can get DL and work (because America is dependent on them).

[rodeodance]

35. some days i just really want to punch someone out.

[applegrove]

36. You can disagree with me. Don't you think I make a point about

all computer databases linking to one another so that 'known terrorists on watch lists' don't get through?

No other way to implement that ..than to have an ID system which is really severe.

If we are upset that the FBI (or whoever) didn't tell their worries to the FAA about airplane schools and such.. they have to do something about it.

I don't know if what way I offended you. I'll admit that there could be many ways in which this bill changes many people's lives. I think you'll admit that your words were a little off the top. But I will ignore that and accept your vehement disagreement with me. As is your right.

[Selatius]

37. The present system works. It's just people NOT doing their job

What is the point in passing Real ID if the problems that led to 9/11 are not addressed? Why should civil liberties be sacrificed first instead of fighting incompetence, manpower shortages, and even corruption in the system?

[applegrove]

38. How can it work if they have not solved the 'issues' they had on

9/11. How to keep an DL or a phony DL from getting into the hands of a known terrorist on a 'watch list'. IMHO

[Selatius]

42. The issue wasn't forged documents; it was poor communication/coordination

Even if they had forged documents, the plot would've stood a good chance of being uncovered anyway because a) Moussaui made a mistake and got arrested, b) certain FBI field offices were already raising the alarm months in advance (Remember Colleen Rowley?), c) foreign intelligence services were passing on info. to the US that something big was coming down the line, and d) many of these guys were already on watch lists prior to the attacks.

The problem was communication. The answer would thus follow to improve existing networks to deal with it, not set up a whole new one that could further intrude on civil liberties.

[chlamor]

41. Yikes

Just bar code my forehead and scan me each time I CONSUME-That includes breathing. Are we there yet?
Welcome to Der Homeland
Welcome to friendly fascism-McAmeriWalMartika

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Showing an ID does not make transport safe

Ask yourself: why did TSA 'suggest' that everyone take off their shoes after the Richard Reid incident, but they merrily allowed lighters on board?
Why is it in our secured airports the baggage handlers are stealing from luggage, just like the good old days? How is luggage 'lost'?

Transportation is not secure, and requiring this odious national ID will not make it so.

The TSA just added another 'voluntary' burden on passengers. Soon you will be asked to provide your full legal name and date of birth when buying a ticket (yes, this is on that driver's license you show at the airport, but not yet electronically attached to your reservation. The TSA spokesman said if one doesn't 'volunteer' this info, they become more likely to be subject to secondary screening at the airport. Voluntary my eye.

As long as Americans put up with these assaults on civil liberties, the government will continue to impose them.

[Book Lover]

39. Why Harry? What do I get in return?

Seriously. I know it's the give-and-take game - care to tell me what I get back for you kowtowing on this one? Oh, that's right, I'm just the schlub who forks out the green every few years and votes your ass into your public service position. What do I need to know the why's for?

[kenny blankenship]

45. more war, for one thing!

feel better?

[GetTheRightVote]

40. Identity theives will have a hay day with this one, down go credit ratings

for sure, this is the growing problem in today's world and our country will be opening the door wide open for them to walk right into our homes with all of our personal information located in one very hackable data base.

Wake up people before it is to late to save ourselves, corporations would love to link into this data base and use our information to make profits. Let's get real with this issue and protect ourselves from the obvious abuses of it. I am a programmer, this will be done to us, it is possible to do it.

:kick:

[AlGore-08.com]

43. Another unfunded mandate and many states are almost broke

What happens if one or more states can't pay for this stupid idea? Suppose that Virginia was unable to pay for them, or couldn't implement the program in time? Would that mean that folks in Virginia would be arrested every time they left their state? One major headache alone would be folks who live in Arlington and other DC suburbs who suddenly wouldn't be able to cross into the city to work!