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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:49 PM
Original message
New Democrats: Hugo Chavez Out of Control
A number of recent articles in the Washington Post point to a deepening political crisis in Venezuela at the hands of its dictator, Hugo Chavez. Jackson Diehl profiles Hugo Chavez's latest attempts at rewriting the country's laws to muzzle the Venezuelan media critical of his policies. Chavez has not been shy about showing his dislike for the Bush administration and his spending political and economic capital on launching a very public anti-Bush campaign the likes which has rarely been seen coming from a Latin American nation.

. . .

NDN will continue to push for a stronger, more thoughtful and inclusive foreign policy towards Latin America as part of its Hispanic Project and we will advocate for the development of stronger ties with the region and a more in-depth understanding of critical issues affecting Central and South America.

http://www.ndnblog.org/

In other words, bring Latin America back under USA dominance.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's why I hate the DLC and 'New Democrats'
They don't give a shit about the people of Venezuala or the working people of America. They are pro-business, pro-wealthy DINO's who may side with Democrats on a few social issues, but would happily vote with the neo-cons on tax cuts for the rich and benefit cuts for the poor.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Our Latin America foreign policy is supported by both the DNC and RNC
It is why I went Independent Progressive many years ago.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Both the DNC and the RNC support the NED.
I posted this on another thread.
Basically it shows how the National Endowment for Democracy
is using its tax exempt status
and your tax money,
given to it by Congress.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1360067&mesg_id=1360234
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Huh?
Wasn't this "dictator" elected?

Hasn't anyone watched how the Bushies quell public dissent?

Does that mean that Bush is a "dictator" as well?

Chavez's great crime is that he wants to get the US out of Venezuela's business and that Venezuela is the fourth largest oil exporter to the US.

Do the math...
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. It's possible to elect a dictator
It used to happen all the time in Africa. You have a vote on who it is will make the law.

The first law is: no more elections.

Besides, Democracy doesn't mean freedom (as the people of Iraq will find out).

In fact, dictatorships are even stronger when the dictator can claim he's acting in the name of "the people".

Dictators wouldn't last nearly as long as they do if they couldn't at least convince a large number of people that there are acting for "the greater good" or "the good of society" or "the people".

That way they can turn attacks on themselves into attacks on "the people" since they, after all, represent "the people".

It's amazing how great a proportion of the public can be complicit in the whole thing.
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dameocrat Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. There have been two elections and a recall since he became President
and he won all three. The New Democrats are just repukes.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. "Has not been shy about showing is dislike for the Bush administration"
"Launching a public anti-Bush campaign"

Sounds like the 'New Democrats' are most upset that Hugo Chavez criticized Bush! I guess that's what they are most offended about?

Rat bastards. If anything is going to drive me from this party, it's 'New Democrats'. I kind of miss the 'Old Democrats'...you know -- the ones that actually stood for something.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Many "Democrats" strongly support Bush
we see it on the September 11 Forum all the time.

Just post something crtical about Bush's actions on that day
or complain about him trying to shut down investigations into 911,
or even say something to the effect that since
Saddam had nothing to do with September 11, it was unfair to attack Iraq.

You will be TRASHED by fellow DU members
and you will be reminded that we need to act more "patriotic."

Go back into the archives and see the flamewars over
Shock and Awe
and how this is a good thing, opposed only by tinfoil hatters.

Or, if you have the balls,
mention the architect of the pre-emptive strike strategy,
DINO Thomas Barnett.
Zell Miller will whoop your ass.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. I like this version better.
Edited on Thu Mar-31-05 12:57 PM by kaitykaity
Chavez was elected democratically. Strange.

:shrug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=114297

Venezuela: The Great Anguish of George W. Bush

Monday, Mar 21, 2005
By: Jorge Arreaza - Temas

The following is an inexorable truth: the U.S. government does not know what to do with the Bolivarian government of President Chavez. Our revolution is too democratic, too humanistic, too profound and too transcendent; and is therefore beyond traditional capitalist analysis and beyond the comprehension of a government of a country where values revolve around individualism. They try, through their declarations and their media and commercial power, to convince the world that President Chavez is a tyrant: an autocrat. Likewise they try to lead us all to believe that ours is a totalitarian, repressive, restrictive, un-democratic and even communist government. However, the radically democratic reality of Venezuela throws them for a loop and lands them face down. Their worry is evident. Their accusations against the Venezuelan government are now not monthly or weekly, but have become a part of the daily routine of their sensationalist foreign policy.

Meanwhile, Venezuela supplies petroleum and its derivates to the U.S. with absolute punctuality and security. Neither Australia nor Spain are better trading partners of the US than Venezuela. We are too important for them to risk losing the energy that we supply. They know well that the Bolivarian process is irreversible, which is why signs of a possible assassination attempt have emerged. However, what most worries the US is not the characteristics of a sovereign and popular Venezuelan government, nor, perhaps, a sure supply of oil; what causes them extreme anguish is the possibility of the Venezuelan process proliferating throughout Latin America. The leadership of president Chavez in the region is impressive, in spite of the communicational blockade and the media prevarication that our government has been subjected to since 1999. It is therefore conceivable that a revolution such as ours could be emulated by any of our countries. It does not require ousting governments or appealing to armed struggle. All that is needed are political will and an ethic to use representative democratic electoral mechanisms to assume power and to begin governing for and with the majority: for and with the excluded. In this sense, the democratic spirit and essence of the Bolivarian Revolution is much more "reproducible and contagious" than the revolutions of Allende, the Sandinistas, and of Cuba.

The White House, the Pentagon and the Department of Defense do not know how to transform the profound democracy of Venezuela into a dictatorship, nor a President re-legitimized several times at the polls into a tyrant, nor a people that support their government and actively participate with courage in shaping their destiny into a people that is asleep and frightened. This week they have tried to convince the rest of the world that the neighbors of Venezuela share the worry of Washington and fear that President Chavez could subvert democracies and conspire against the governments of the region.

More:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1401

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. SUPERB article. Our only antidote to disinformation is through reading
You can surely tell the ones who have read everything they can get their hands on about Latin America from the right-wing genocidal idiot racists, can't you?

From your second link:
Totally absurd. For example, the Gringos say, that Venezuela’s neighbors are worried about our government’s purchase of rifles and helicopters from Russia, fearing an arms race. These statements are absolutely false. Not one Latin American country has expressed any worry. In fact, official spokespersons of close neighbors such as Brazil and Colombia have contradicted this and have confirmed their respect for Venezuelan sovereignty. In truth, if military asymmetry exists in the region it would be that caused by the US in Colombia through Plan Colombia. What’s more, if any country is overwhelmingly enjoying profits from the purchase and manufacturing of conventional arms and from massive destruction it is the US, whose legislature has approved, in this year alone, 81 billion dollars for military expenses in Iraq and Afghanistan. On what moral grounds can Washington talk of an arms race?

We must comprehend one of the Bush government’s main accusations.

Effectively, a submissive Latin America is considered to be ideal, rife with inequalities and underdevelopment and full of excluded and dependent people. For them the current status quo represents stability, tranquility, and social muzzling; the muzzle of the capitalist market. In this context, submission and dependence have evidently been subverted in Venezuela and the excluded are today the protagonists, instead of cheap labor for transnationals or simply "voting" bodies every five years.
(snip)
Thanks a lot. I've stashed it away to reread.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. I am gonna play a little Devil's Advocate here.
It is incontravertable that Chavez is doing some long-needed things in Venezuela. There has long been a real necessity for real economic and land reform. Without it, violent revolution would have come to the country, eventually.

That said, it is a very dangerous game that Chavez plays, and with the lives of his own people. If he keeps goading The Chimp, our strutting martinet will eventually attack Venezuela's strutting martinet and the Venezuelan people will be caught in the middle. That means people will die.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Whether Chavez goads Bush or not, our country's intention is to attack
Chavez's actions just give the Bush Gang a public justification if we decide to do an overt attack. For now, millions of our taxpayer dollars are being spent on the covert attack which is ongoing and being intensified as we type.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well, perhaps you are correct, but...
He is muzzling the opposition press. That is not a good sign. If it happened here, you would be screaming. Why is it more acceptable if Chavez does it?

After all, if his ideas and methods of bringing them to fruition are superior to those of the opposition, then he can abide a free and open press. He will survive that.

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. He is not muzzling the opposition press, if he were he would shut
down Globovision which is the main television station in Venezuela. Globovision is opposition press and receives funding from NED. The news on Globovision is anti-Chavez 24/7 screaming headlines about how crazy Chavez is. Think Fox News for the opposition.

In addtion, the two main newspapers are also anti-Chavez opposition papers.

The only people who are being fined and jailed are people who are proven Coup propaganda people, and they are being prosecuted under subversion activities laws.

But the WaPo doesn't go into that do they?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Muzzling the opposition press?
"If it happened here, you would be screaming."

What opposition press is there in the United States?
WHERE is the liberal media?
Every single mainstreammedia outlet is whoring for Bush.
Heck, Bush is even hiring his own presstitutes direct - Jeff Gannon.

If a Democrat shut down Faux because they are barely one step above GOPUSA, honest people would APPLAUD.
Venezuela WANTS Chavez.
What ratings did Bush garner today? He of the German dog poop and the Belgian urinals.

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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. It would understandable
(or deplorable if you'd rather deplore than see people free and prosperous and protected) if Chavez backed up his defense of his nation by shooting the media leaders who sold out to dangerous American interest intent on seizing the nation's sovereignty and resources and desertification of the land forever. It would be logical and understandable. As to what is moral or even practical tactics that is highly debatable.

What is not debatable is that they would treat Venezuela like Haiti in a hot minute if they could and they would be better off with far worse than Chavez if they can somehow stave off the neocon lust for oil. Criticizing the democratic institutions of a nation under extreme peril(even in a Phony War period) seems really far-fetched and arrogant. Giving into US propaganda by using words like "opposition" instead of "subversion by a foreign power" is to be a Bush tool.

The same goes when criticizing the Israelis who can be understood in their fight for precarious survival but not exactly admired for their methods. The reason no one can be as fastidious as us in esteemed social principles to a large extent is surprisingly- us! The pressures for democracy in a country of SELF-DETERMINATION can do without hypocritical and destructive influence from lying bullies. Considering the condition of the human race and history, Venezuela and Israel are doing fairly well under stress and opposition. Chavez is heroic and forthright. No other stance stands a chance.

We are not, considering our privileges. America is becoming almost a totally ruined potential, a disgrace to the race that thought- if only-
that the decent majority living free and prosperous could make things work.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. "muzzling the opposition press" - where did you hear that?
It's not true.
The opposition press - all corporate, pro-us, anti-Chavez - is alive and well, their ignoring and slandering Chavez is routine business. And Chavez leaves them be. Not exactly what one would expect from a dictator.
He has 1 state owned TV channel that he uses to address his people.
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dameocrat Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. It is a lie that he is muzzling the opposition press
kind of like the WMD lie. The fact that it is repeated doesn't make it true. The Venezuelan legislature has passed a law against showing soft porn during hours when children maybe watching, and a law against the press inciting assasination against elected officials, which is something that happened during the coup against Chavez, and the repuke hypocrits in both parties who want an excuse to invade turned it into muzzling the press.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. So does that mean he is chasing reporters out of their jobs and...
only answering questions from a male hooker his staffers prepped?
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. The "New Democrat Network"--that's Simon Rosenberg's group?
I can't believe this group refers to Hugo Chavez as a dictator! Isn't he the guy Josh Marshall was touting for the DNC chairmanship? God, we really are in disarray as a party.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. That's the group.
Rosenberg founded and RAN the NDN as the DLC's very own soft money match-making operation that featured heavily vetting candidates for corporate-friendliness, then matching them up with pre-selected corporate financiers.

Campaign finance reform ruined that scam so he's been trying to repackage the NDN and himself. He's no progressive and thank HEAVEN he wasn't put in charge of the DNC or we would all have wound up snookered again.
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chomskyite_naderite Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Who are "New Democrats"? Edwards. Who else?
I know Edwards was one during the campaign. Who else? Kerry?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Jackson Diehl used to be a sports writer for the Yale Daily News
Now he's an expert on foreign policy?
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Imperialism in Khakis


"The role of the inhabitants of the American hemisphere has for centuries been purely passive. Politically they were non-existent. We are still in a position lower than slavery, and therefore it is more difficult for us to rise to the enjoyment of freedom. We were removed from the world in relation to the science of government and administration of the state. We were never viceroys or governors, save in the rarest of instances; seldom archbishops; diplomats never; as military men, only subordinates; as nobles without royal privileges. - Simón Bolívar, 1815

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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-01-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. Out of control all right
out of US control.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. What superficial claptrap.
Methinks the Post doth protest too much, especially in regards to 'paid pundits.' It looks to me like the DLC, NDN and their corporate sponsors are just playing their part in demonizing Chavez.

It's high time that the U.S. stopped jacking around with other countries' democratic processes. In short, let's have functional elections here first. Quit pouring money into the NED, and pour it into squaring up the electoral process in the U.S. Any black Democrat from Ohio will tell you so.

Regarding the media law that was passed actually last year, the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, was a law that had been in the works for about three years. Actually, it preceded even the coup in 2002.

Well, I don't know if any of the listeners have ever been down to Venezuela and seen the private media channels, but it's like a thousand times worse than Fox Cable News, and we're talking every channel except the state-owned channel. Not just with political opinions, but in terms of presenting outright lies, lots of violence, there was a lot of soft porn -- and sometimes even beyond that -- during daytime hours.

So, basically this law, the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is to put some kind of control on sex and violence that can be shown during children's and family viewing hours. Once again the United States Dept. of State together with U.S. media and Venezuelan private media, have launched this massive campaign saying freedom of speech and expression is being stifled and the government is censoring the media. But that's absolutely absurd. You turn on any of the channels here and you'll see that there's more freedom of expression enjoyed in Venezuela than probably anywhere else in the world. It's the only place where they can go on television and talk about killing the president, or saying the most derogatory and offensive things on a news hour.


link

---------------------------------

Thus far, Venezuela's Bolivarian Revolution, named for South America's nineteenth-century liberator, Simón Bolívar, has deepened and politicized a pre-existing tradition of Venezuelan populism. Despite Chávez's often radical discourse, the government has not engaged in mass expropriations of private fortunes, even agricultural ones, nor plowed huge sums into new collectively owned forms of production. In fact, private property is protected in the new Constitution promulgated after Chávez came to power. What the government has done is spend billions on new social programs, $3.7 billion in the past year alone. As a result, 1.3 million people have learned to read, millions have received medical care and an estimated 35-40 percent of the population now shops at subsidized, government-owned supermarkets. Elementary school enrollment has increased by more than a million, as schools have started offering free food to students. The government has created several banks aimed at small businesses and cooperatives, redeployed part of the military to do public works and is building several new subway systems around the country. To boost agricultural production in a country that imports 80 percent of what it consumes, Chávez has created a land-reform program that rewards private farmers who increase productivity and punishes those who do not with the threat of confiscation.

snip

Through it all, occasional armed clashes between hard-core Chavistas and opposition militants have left about twenty people on both sides dead or seriously wounded. And the Chávez government has enacted a media law that punishes slander with jail time and prohibits broadcast of the twenty-four-hour-a-day video loops that were an opposition favorite, drawing sharp criticism from press-freedom advocates. But there has been no major government campaign of repression, not even against the architects of the coup, many of whom are at liberty and still in Venezuela.

snip

So I visit the offices of the right-wing tabloid Así Es la Noticia, owned by one of Venezuela's top-circulation dailies, El Nacional. "Look, Chávez won the referendum. People have to accept that," says the editor, Albor Rodriguez. She is in her early 30s, an escuálido all the way, but she respects the facts.

snip

Albor, to my surprise, is almost as harsh on the opposition: "They lost because Chávez has a deep emotional connection with the people, and they have no connection with the people. Also, he has spent a lot of money on the barrios. He pours money into the barrios."



link

----------------------------------------

Right-wingers, extreme Right-wingers and many moderates with strong corporate ties are horrified by this form of populism. I think that the same crew that took down Howard Dean views Chavez in the same light.

Is Chavez even remotely like Howard Dean? No. Does that matter to rabid, non-thinking, attack-mode-all-the-time, freaks who are still looking for Reds under their beds?

No.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-02-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. What about our little dictator?
He wasn't elected the first time around, and yet he took office. And who knows about the second time around? Hmm. Why aren't we talking about him?

Chavez is certainly more pro-democratic than Bush. So let's stay focused, shall we?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. no shit-the DLC is the problem, not solution
I'm disappointed to here Edwards consorted with these types.

Respecting other people's democracies is more than idealistic, it's the best way to prevent terrorism and soften the blow of globalization. But neither of those are neocon/lib priorities.
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