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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:10 AM
Original message
"Our Godless Constitution"
This is an excellent summary of the facts.

It is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. The lesson the President has learned best -- and certainly the one that has been the most useful to him -- is the axiom that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent.

Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

. . . snip

Here is Franklin's considered summary of his own beliefs, in response to a query by Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale. He wrote it just six weeks before his death at the age of 84.

"Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure."

Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. "The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded with absurdities and incomprehensibilities" that it was almost impossible to recapture "its native simplicity and purity." Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. "The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), "when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as "the ravings of a maniac."


. . . more
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/04/opinion/main671823.shtml

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fertilizeonarbusto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very true, this! n/t
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe we should refer to the christian right as..........
the Anti-Patriots or maybe just refer to them as the Puritans.
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woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. They're so wacked they would think being a "Puritan" was a complement. n/t
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Worse yet,
they'd be ready to begin the witch-hunts and burnings. You called that one right.

:puke:
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Or...King George's loyal subjects
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. History is written
(or rewritten in this case) by the winners.

As long as neoconservative dogma rules in this country, expect to see all versions of early American history focus on the religious zealots as the driving force behind the founding of the country and the enlightened ones who actually drafted the Constitution marginalized.

BTW, Franklin's comment respecting his skepticism regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ would today be more than enough for him to be run out of polite society and demonized in many sections of this country.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Most of the Founding Fathers would have suffered . . .
accusations of demonry in today's fascist climate. I find it difficult to understand how the wingers can't understand a simple review of world history, summed up so brilliantly by Jefferson:

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” (letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813).
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Very nice article
I've never seen it all pulled together so well. Thanks for posting, Texastoast.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. TGAOTU- The Great Architect of the Universe in Freemasonic
Edited on Mon Feb-07-05 11:06 AM by EVDebs
'code' was and is indelibly ensconsced in the symbolic street design of Washington DC and FDR even put such symbolism on the dollar bill. (hint: the Washington Monument is sited as the "G" centered in a square and compass with Capital steps in the East, where wisdom originates...)

The 'open secret' of Freemasonry's tribute to the Creator is most tellingly the embedding ot religious tolerance into our Constitution. Freemasons like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine...all knew about the results of the religious wars in Europe (St Bartholomew's Day massacre, etc. etc.) and didn't want reoccurances.

"The beginning of wisdom is fear (respect) of the Lord" - Solomon.

We owe a great debt to Freemasonry and the tolerance it helped inspire. Please read John J. Robinson's "Born in Blood" and "Dungeon, Fire, and Sword"
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. You know you're history TGAOTU
I had to do entire semester researching "masonry," and hit into the "freemasonry" history. It's much older than what anyone could imagine and has many hidden meanings, and has been vested into our architectural designs, as well as our dollar bills.

It was a profound semester, to say the least when it began as a mere masonry project.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. W should have somebody read the Constitution to him
A search of the whole US Constitution at

http://www.law.emory.edu/simplesearch/search.php3

for any of (god or jesus or christ or christian or holy or faith or religious or religion or pray or prayer) produces exaclty 3 results:

Article VI Clause 3:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Article IV Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Amendment I.2
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Clearly, two of these 3 references are prohibitions against introducing religion into the Government, and the other one is not a religious reference at all.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. great post, thanks!
I've been a big admirer or Franklin and Jefferson for many years, and it's wisdom like this that led me to them.

It's sad to see how far we've drifted from the ideals this country was founded on.

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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Great article
Thanks for posting. There's an interesting parallel, too, between the hijacking of the (fictitious) religiosity of the Founding Fathers and the Fundies' bastardization of the teachings of Christ. Christ only speaks in the Gospels, and when he does he mostly talks about pacifism, tolerance, and the evils of accumulated wealth. Like Jeffeerson and Franklin, Jesus is really a very inconvenient figure for the religious right. They prefer Paul--all the judgmental outrage of the converted.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Jefferson called himself a "real" Christian . . .
because he separated himself from the "raving Calvinists" and such because of said bastardization.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw." Letter to Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816


Read more about the Cambridge Platonists . . .

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cambridge-platonists/
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pacifictiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Jefferson also took the time
to compile from the bible, in chronological order, the life, deeds and words of Jesus himself. He was so uncomfortable with the supernatural aspects written after Jesus' death by people such as Paul, he omitted them.
It is still published today under the name "The Jefferson Bible." Well worth looking at.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thank you!
I've been reading through the Gnostic Gospels; the ones political religous Christians decided to "leave out." Big debates over these, such as those found in Nag Hammandi. Run a search on Amazon. Well worth the read.

Thanks for that tip on Jefferson's Bible. I hope I can find a copy of it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

:thumbsup:
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pacifictiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. You're welcome - happy to spread the word
I got my copy a couple of years ago at Amazon.
Yes, the Nag Hamadi texts are great. Many of them are online at, I think it is, gnosis.com - or something like that.

Something else I really enjoyed is Bill Moyers full interview of Joseph Campbell on his "The Power of Myth" material. It sort of ties a lot of things together involving belief systems from different cultures around the world, looking at the things they have in common. It was done several years ago now and I happened to catch part of it on PBS. The whole interview is on about 5 or 6 video tapes.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Jesus would be "turning the tables"
of today's political temple thieves. The fundies, in my opinion, have no place espousing Jesus' teachings.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kick
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. Franklin was wrong about one important thing
"As for Jesus of Nazareth, ... I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity ... I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed ..."

Franklin was far too open-minded in that respect. Today's fundies seem to feel that belief in the divinity of Jesus is an acceptable substitute for observing anything he said. I would suggest as a general rule that believing in the divinity of any man is a major impediment to being able to heed his teaching.
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pacifictiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I think Franklin believed
in the evils of what used to be known as "the 7 deadly sins" - Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, Sloth. He maintained a high work ethic throughout his life and is responsible for many of the sayings that have been brought foward to today.
From what I have read, he thought that the church served a purpose of bringing a community together and, in general, promoted behavior that would contribute to a well functioning society. However, he also thought that too much religion was worse than not enough.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. Great Article, Thank You !!!
Passin it all around!

:yourock:
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