Group may sue to block species protection

[Squatch]

Thought this should be in LBN...

SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- A conservative legal group is threatening to sue the federal government over its plans to protect four dozen endangered species ranging from Peninsular bighorn sheep to the tiny robust spineflower.

The Pacific Legal Foundation on Monday notified the Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service that it would file suit in 60 days, claiming the agencies failed to meet federal requirements when they set out to protect 16 animal and 32 plant species.

Advance notice is required before filing endangered species lawsuits.

Based on a favorable ruling in U.S. District Court in Fresno that overturned habitat protection for the Alameda whipsnake last year, the foundation said the agencies underestimated the economic impact of protection and did not properly follow the rules to protect habitat.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/16/endangered.species.ap/index.html

[liberal N proud]

1. Lets have open season on conservatives

see how they feel about that!

[Squatch]

2. They're not an endangered species...

more like a pest species

[liberal N proud]

6. If we had open season they would become indangered.

[Roland99]

12. LOL!!

[Lizzie Borden]

18. Give them enough rope!

[Lerkfish]

7. oh, its an infestation, alright....

[JudyM]

3. Just what we need

* is already reducing the strength of animal protection and environmental rules. Like we needed more pressure from that side.

[texastoast]

4. Back to our roots

As the turmoil of the Ohio recount goes on, it's time to support those organizations whose regular donations and funding were diverted to the presidential campaign.

PM me if you would like to see a list of worthy organizations with foresight.

[Squatch]

5. Why not post them here?

I think more people than just I would be interested.

[Kolesar]

9. The energy/environment forum would be a great place to post it.

[texastoast]

13. Okay . . . if this bloody work wasn't in the way

I'll get to it.

The problem with the environmental forum is that it does not get as much exposure as GD.

Even though I'm an activist, I don't visit there as often. I just pop in on the main board when my boss is away. GD is a good way to plop in a snippet here and there and generate special interest.

[Kolesar]

14. thanks ... eom

[texastoast]

30. Done. n/t

[Kolesar]

8. We need to generate some public opposition to this

Letters and emails, petitions and postcards can make a difference.

[AdollarTwoNintyEight]

22. Why? It sounds like they want the laws to be followed

I'm of the belief that following the laws is a good thing. Much better than spiking trees and getting some lumber worker killed.

[0rganism]

10. Cartoon Evil strikes again!

And this is only the beginning of the end.

Painful as the utter decimation of the biosphere is going to be, I'll take some small satisfaction in watching these assholes go down with the rest of us.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

11. Those pesky endangered species

are always interfering with money making opportunities.

[sakabatou]

15. I'm confused

Are these people suing if they protect these species or suing to have them go poof?

[VegasWolf]

25. It says CONSERVATIVE legal group. These animals and plants

are getiing in the way of some corporations profit
margin and must be terminated. Foolish plants growing
where they are not wanted, it's their own fault.

[Sugarbleus]

16. Sorry, I think the "endangered species" act has stepped over

the line in way too many cases. It prevents the development of jobs and housing especially for the poor. The entire 'RADICAL' enviromentalist lobby has gone too far. It is the one singular issue that the rest of America hates within the Dem party....

Sensible, sane environmental policies should prevail. We do have global warming, we do want clean air and water, we do want to save the whales, wolves etc. But stopping a housing project for the poor(a certain case I had in mind at present) because of a tiny flower or a tiny bug is LUDICROUS. It's a scam! I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find rich republicans and Dems behind that idea....

Furthermore, we ought to ween ourselves off the teat of the auto industry (much to their chagrin of course). Stop building more highways and cars and turn to mass transit. That, of course, would mean building the rail systems for it BUT the species freaks don't want any ground touched. Humans are part of evolution too, this is our home, we belong here, we NEED the land to survive. We are the stewards of this globe, we should take care of it but not at the expense of cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

These movements need a more balanced and common sense approach. My opinion...

[Anakin Skywalker]

20. Different Reasons.

"It prevents the development of jobs and housing especially for the poor"

Somehow I feel safe in saying that these two are NOT the reasons the "conservatives" and Repukes want to overturn species protection. They are greedy corporate whores and bloodthirsty scums who just want to shoot and kill things mindlessly.

[Sugarbleus]

28. I disagree with your ESA assumption

that NO business is good for working people, ie: corporations--big or small. I do agree with your description: "greedy, corporate, scums" in that the MEGA corps & the investment class do end up fleecing the people.

I don't know what job you perform for a living, but people DO NEED JOBS. Some of the EXTREMIST environmental elements are anti industry; even anti human beings. That is were I draw the line.

I looked up some of these people's "manifesto" and it is CHILLING. It has taken the stance of a "Religion" and it's just as radical as the fundies of all sects worldwide. PETA is one of them.

I live in CA where I see some of the worst restrictions on everyday living. Some of the enviro restrictions are completely nonsensical and often makes daily life a total hassel.

Respectfully, SB

[AdollarTwoNintyEight]

21. Nominated for the most reasonable post concerning radical ESA actions

Your resanable post is a welcome sight in this world of extreme actions both left and right.

[Sugarbleus]

27. Thank you. I have held off for months because it seems

this topic is THE THIRD RAIL in politics--left and right. Black Tuesday is over :(, I wanted to know what went wrong (besides the possible fraud)for us and wanted to know what issues (besides morality) were of concern to everyday americans who voted for the chimp.
This subject came up time and again.

Dems used to be the party of working people.....it seems to have drifted a bit. =o|

This is NOT to say the entire environmental movement isn't valuable..it most certainly is. Untold benefits have come from their efforts. I'm just asking for brilliant minds, on both sides of the issue, to come together and find some common ground with the rest of the ordinary, working Americans.

Peace~~

[XemaSab]

23. I disagree

I work for an environmental consulting firm, and I think the Act needs to be strenghtened.

Here's how it works:

We go out to proposed development sites, look for potential habitat for threatened or endangered species, and decide what needs to be surveyed for. Later we go back and survey for owls, foxes, or whatever we're worried about. Then, if we FIND an owl, the project is delayed until owl breeding season is over. Measures are then imposed to make sure an owl isn't hurt during the project, and the field that was the owl's home is turned into a Wal-Mart.

Presence of endangered species almost never stops a project.

Furthermore, these development projects are virtually always for the middle class or wealthy who are fleeing the city.

Our company does good work; we're not just rubber stamping things, but there's really very little mechanism for conservation within the law for endangered species alone. The exception to this is wetland habitat. Often the issue there is an objection raised by the Army Corps of Engineers, not the US Fish and Wildlife Service or the California Department of Fish and Game. Also, California has lost 90% of the wetlands that were here originally. Don't you think we should keep the last 10%?

As far as the jobs issue goes, most of my family and many of my friends are employed because of the Act and other environmental laws, but that's neither here nor there.

There's lots of land left in the state that could be developed with no regulatory barriers.

PS: The Endangered Species Act was signed by Richard Nixon.

[Sugarbleus]

29. Thank you for your input. It's good to have a dialog....

I would have to go dig up some data (which I'm willing to do) but here are a couple things that just burned my cakes recently.

I live in a "greenbelt" area. Our city council/county board of sups are very "green". There is virtually zero growth in terms of industry (though Odwalla and Harmony Foods are doing well, while paying minimum wage)

We've seen some housing growth but, as you say, those developments are for the higher income working people--who mostly commute to elsewhere for their jobs (since there are few high wage jobs here). The units are smaller than normal, cramped but nice......and EXPENSIVE. Like you say, groups like yours come and inspect any new development for these "new" homes then sign off.

About 40 miles from here is an abandoned Army Base: Fort Ord. The area had to be cleaned up by the Army for obvious reasons ("toxic" by products left behind). There are scores of old base housing at this facility. The county started a campaign to refurbish these dwellings and sell/rent them to the public. However, the VAST outlying areas are off limits for building additional Low income housing because of an "insect"...! When the military left, it left a huge whole in their local economy...which led to a lot of small businesses going under, which led to a huge population living near or below poverty.

Since this whole area is SOOOOOOO expensive to live in, people need cheap housing, at the very least. BTW, "low-income" for this area is estimated at anything below $60,000!! Some people have left, but not all can do that. Our own "Green" board of sups has pulled a bait and switch in that it hasn't lived up to it's bargain with the state to build enough adequate low income housing for the service workers in our area (paraphrasing). They are being sued over it now by a couple of fair housing/migrant worker's rights groups.

It boggles my mind how the county, the greens, and contractors have colluded to allow people from out of town to build these fancy homes but neglect to address the needs of the rest of the county population!

Recently, in last few years, the county has allowed a few new businesses come to town....."big box stores" (they pay bigger bribe money), but even then, those stores don't last long because there isn't any real employment here! People take their dollars elsewhere where it will stretch a bit further; another problem. The shops we do have here, in our downtown, are high end tourist type stores..not for everyday people. No walmart, no target,no kmart...but we do have costco and will be building a new home depot on the sight of the old kmart. On the other hand, small businesses not in the quaint downtown district, CANNOT afford to pay the fees to build. I worked for a small business that had to quit because they went virtually bankrupt fighting with the city planners and greens over upgrading their business ON THEIR OWN property.

There used to be other corporate businesses here but they were chased off. ie: Seagate, Intel, Liptons, Wringly's..a few more I can't think of just now. Some of that I suspect was also due to outsourcing and "NAFTA"...the rest had to do with "green issues".

Most of our groceries are rundown and inadequate(smell of rotten meat and old linoleum) but are disallowed to upgrade...can't get everything at Natural Food stores..besides they are expensive too.

Hubby is handicapped and works with the physically challenged in our area. He has worked years with the transportation/metro here. He worked on issues related to elderly and disabled in terms of accessibility; not to mention the need to get people out of their cars and into public transportation to end congestion and pollution. The transit needed to upgrade; to move their facilities to a larger "yard" for the extra buses they would need. There was a piece of land away from downtown but still in a business park area that they had their eye on. Guess what? The enviros yelled NO. Said the site was "sacred" because of a tree there. The project was killed. period.

In any case, the bus lines have been cut, there was a layoff of drivers, the rates have gone up..the service is virtually a useless system. (Part of this was also due to lack of state funding as well). The buses even went to a non polluting fuel...no dice. It was better to save a single tree rather than get people out of their cars. :eyes:

I could go on, but you get the idea. It also puzzles me why the interior areas of my state are building like wild fire--no stoppage for wildflowers or bugs or whatever, but my area is left to the whims of our greens and cheeky city planners. But wait, I did hear a rumor about coming down hard on ranchers and farmers inland for their part in adding to "pollution"..ie: methane gas etc... WTF?
We can't build dams for clean hydro electric power(bugs, animals and land would have to go someplace else--oh the horror!) and were forced to use the MTBE's in our gas which drove the prices sky high...all the while MTBE's is HIGHLY DANGEROUS to the water.....

Respectfully, SB

[XemaSab]

32. Yeah, it's good to talk about these things

Sounds more like a county issue than an Endangered Species Act issue. Different counties in the state definitely see things differently. I've lived in Alameda, Marin, Madera, Humboldt, Shasta, and Sacramento counties, and they all have really different ideas about what "good growth" and appropriate land use are.

There are definitely "species" protected under the Endangered Species Act that reasonable people can disagree about whether they should be listed and what conservation measures should be put in place.

The thing that complicates the issue is that the Act is open to manupulation by people using the critters protected under the Act to block all logging, or all development, or what have you. This gives the Act an undeserved bad name, as well as giving environmentalists an undeserved bad name. However, laws should be changed so that tree huggers don't have to use the Spotted Owl or Marbled Murrelet as an excuse to save the old growth. I think "endangered habitat" designations would be a lot smarter than single-species foci.

But I digress....

Republicans try to portray environmental laws as elitist and outdated, and thereby divide liberals. "Either you care about people or you care about the environment/trees/fish/owls/butterflies/fairy shrimp/plants/whales/wolves/whatever" is a classic false dichotomy. As liberals, we should demonstrate a concern for both people and the land.

[Sugarbleus]

36. Very very well said...I agree...

The whole environmental movement is under attack. It would be wise, IMO, to rethink a few things and clean house.

Ultimately, I LOVE the clean air and water and wild animals--flora and fauna. I deeply deeply appreciate the outstanding advances to help our world in this regard. I can remember a time as a child (oldie here) when I sat by a mountain stream and therein were floating tin cans, trash...waste all over the place. NOT ANYMORE, I'm happy to say! AND, in most cases, I can drink the water! Woohoo :D

Still, there has been a bit of negative infiltration into the overall movement. Get that straightened out then the hard and honorable work of the people involved in Ecological well being of our planet WILL SHINE.... Let's work together

~~Peace SB

[davidinalameda]

34. it's never just an insect

or bird or plant, etc

what role does the insect play in the overall ecosystem in which it lives

if you take one part of the ecosystem out, there's a damn good chance the whole thing will fall apart

take a small part out of your car engine and see how well it works

[tsuki]

39. I understand what you are saying. It is happening here.

There is no compromise, no give and take. The problem here is that the Republican anti-enviromentalists have taken over. There's gold in them thar lands. We have seen homesteaders harassed by the code enforcement until they give up their business and sell out. They make a pretty penny doing so, but to tell a man on 5 acres that his house and business is not "purdy" enough to be on the scenic corridor is just a developer's way of moving him off to make room for 16 units per acre.

We have a wetlands program. It is called an exchange. You can fill an acre of wetlands down here if you buy 10 acres of land 40 miles away. Trouble with that logic, is that while you can change the legal residence of the wetlands, what do you do with the water?

We are just now beginning to reap what you sow with massive flooding during the rainy seasons.

What is the anti's solution? Why place a special tax on everyone to take care of storm water drainage. But where do you drain the storm water to?

They have also taken a dislike to the native vegetation. They want to replace all the native trees (Pine) with palm trees. Why? I don't know, but I had to remove a mature stand of Pines from my property because the county government said so. It killed the biomatter. Now the area won't drain, it just holds water. F*ck the Palm Trees, they are not native. I am planting cypress.

When the ReThugs move to paradise, watch out...for them, it's not good enough.

[cattleman22]

33. Reimburse landowners for loss

I agree with you about the need for a more balanced approach. I completely support the concept of the Endangered Species Act. However, I think we as a society, if we truly value protecting endangered species, should reimburse landowners for the loss of the use of their land. It is provisions like this that has fueled right wing "hatred" for environmental groups.

[makhno]

17. Why do conservatives hate America so much?

Are they agents of global terror, a fifth column hell-bent on destroying this country's riches from within? I'm inclined to believe so.

[NuttyFluffers]

37. it is the obvious truth, if you believe your own god given senses.

but since we live in a fun house mirror of reality now, perhaps all our senses are now wrong.

[Anakin Skywalker]

19. Thoughtless Bastards.

These f***ing Repukes just want to kill everything in sight, don't they? Mofos!

[saigon68]

24. Operation "FUCK THE SPOTTED OWL"

I hope these creeps choke on their bile.

[VegasWolf]

26. Say's in the bibble that god gave man dominion ( means do what

the fuck you want to ) over the little animals and fishies
and plants and stuff.

[w4rma]

31. Why the heck do they do this? Do they just want these species to die off?

Why? Is it spite? Do they just hate everything, with the exception of themselves and their immediate family?

[symphony]

35. yeah, let's just destroy the environment ...

but we'll die rich among extinct animal species, global warming and resulting sinking continents.

Oh, the nearsightedness of it all ... and then they get upset when we call them dumb! No person with even half a brain would endanger theirs and their children's lives to make a few extra bucks. But of course, wasn't it their beloved 'Resident who said that there was no global warming?:eyes:

[Carolab]

38. Want to help save the environment?

Join the Sierra Club. These people have done MORE to protect it than anyone.

www.sierraclub.com

$25 for basic membership (and you can get an expedition pack too)