Britain, France and Germany Announce Accord With Iran - NYT

[Burma Jones]

<snip>
France, Britain and Germany announced today that they had reached a formal agreement with Iran that commits the country to suspend production of enriched uranium that can be used to make nuclear bombs in exchange for an array of possible rewards.

Under the complex but limited agreement, Iran agreed to stop all uranium enrichment activities while it negotiates with the three European countries and the European Union over the possible benefits it might receive.

The agreement is a diplomatic victory for both the Europeans and the Iranians, although both sides had to make hard concessions and it is not nearly as far-reaching as the Europeans had sought.
<snip>



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/15/international/middleeast/15cnd-iran.html?hp&ex=1100581200&en=f809ee363a1db915&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. And so begins...

World Isolation.

[Roxy66]

50. Where the hell were we during this process?!!!!!

[hatrack]

70. Blowing the shit out of Fallujah, that's where we were

Oh, and Mosul and Sadr City and Baghdad and Samarrah and Najaf and Ramadi and . . . .

[natrat]

84. where were we ?

like condi or whoever they have in their could bargain meaningfully about anything

[Just Me]

88. Brainwashed party-suckers rather than principle-seekers,...

,...sucking up to the neocon-fascist power-mongering regime that has control of all favors.

GAWD!!! Their spinelessness, absence of honor and courage and MORAL INTEGRITY will not only tear this country apart (as it has already) but throw this once "beacon of democracy" into total humility.

Geez. I just hope and pray that I am "graced" with a life boat off this sinking ship. I'll come back to heal the wounds after Bush's WWIV.

[pleiku52cab]

61. but, but, but, aren't we supposed to be

the leader of the free world - but, but, but.....

[othermeans]

90. Read further into the article. The interesting part that could negate the

whole deal is:

"Once suspension is verified, the European Union will restart negotiations on a trade and cooperation agreement with Iran. It will also "actively support" negotiations for Iran to enter the World Trade Organization, a move that the Bush administration has blocked and can continue to block.

[Call me Deacon Blues]

2. Dang!

There goes *'s excuse to invade. Guess he'll have to make up another one.

[Ducks In A Row]

4. that is the excuse. that their all against us and we have to invade

to protect ourselves.

[Village Idiot]

12. They have already begun spinning the back-story

for an invasion of Iran...nukes entering the US via Mexico by Al-Q terrorists...wonder what city will get it? LA? SanFran? Probably SanFran...

c u in the funny pages.

[Barkley]

71. We must invade Iran because they are supporting the Iraq resistance!

and they have lots of oil and natural gas.

[Blue_Roses]

85. No--this is Europe's way of AVOIDING just that

it seems they don't want to give Bush ANY reason to invade Iran--smart move.

[livinbella]

7. Now bush must invade the entire world (except israel, of course)

Even Britain will not escape the Wrath of Chimp!

[aquart]

19. Would you like to explain the meaning of the smarmy Israel crack?

Now?

[patcox2]

23. Whats to explain. Israel is officially a "special" friend.

Its our policy. Has been forever, under republican and democratic presidents. We have a "special" relationship with Israel.

Are you offended by the suggestion that certain neocons are probably Israeli agents (perle, wolfowitz)? Too bad. The evidence suggests that they are, whether you want to suggest that saying so is somehow evil or not.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patcox2]

32. Whats the matter? Suggestions that Israel influences policy a nerve?

Seems pretty unremarkable to me, the idea that Israel influences american foreign policy, and particularly among the neocons. The only debateable point is whether Wolfowitz and Perle do it as official paid agents of the Israeli government, or do it gratis out of allegiance and conviction. Its tiresome going things like exactly what dates when Perle worked as a paid consultant to the Likud party.

You almost sound like a Bush supporter arguing that we have no proof that Cheney uses his influence to the benefit of Haliburton. By the standard you would apply in defense of Israel, I guess we have no proof that Cheney aids Halliburton.

As far as defining "special," here is a quote from Sharon where he calls the relationship "special." Its from CNN. Why don't you go ask him what it means; I only know what I read in the papers.

"Sharon's office said the prime minister expressed his appreciation for the "deep friendship and the special relations" between the United States and Israel, and asked Powell to forward his "appreciation" to President Bush of his decision to fight terrorism."

[TankLV]

51. The explainations and proof are all ove the place.

One almost has to look carefully NOT to come across it!

You must be the only one in the whole world who would ask such snide questions.

Next you'll be wanting proof that the earth is round, for christsake!

[livinbella]

39. Sharon's israel is bush's accomplice in evil

That is what I mean.
Why are your undies in a bundle?

[Occulus]

55. see: Wolfowitz, Perle, et al

[dave420]

62. $97bn dollars says it's not smarmy

The US gives billions of dollars each and every year to Israel, mainly in arms. You're suggesting that relationship is a valid, unbiassed attempt of a successful nation to try and help a poorer, struggling nation? Hardly. The US has unwavering support for Israel when it's being good and when it's being bad. Commenting on this relationship is not smarmy. The relationship itself is smarmy and shows that the US is mainly interested in democracy and due process when it helps, not when it would cause the US to stop doing something it believes is right, but can't actually prove anywhere to anyone exactly why it's right.

This isn't an anti-american or anti-israel post. It's an anti-america-giving-billions-to-israel-for-no-specific-reason-when-israel's-behaviour-isn't-exactly-nice-to-its-neighbors-which-is-something-i-thought-bush-was-against-ist post. :)

[0007]

64. Why would we attack the country that we gave the nuclear

bomb to protect itself?

Free Mordechai Vanunu!!

[leesa]

92. It is for Israel's benefit, no? Wake up! Our government has been in the

pocket of Israel, doing its bidding for decades. Denial ain't pretty.

[TankLV]

49. I guess he'll have to come up with some more lies like last time.

Kick all the inspectors out and claim the Iranians wouldn't let them in.

The 51percenter idiots will fall for it hook line and sinker, just like last time.

[not fooled]

93. don't worry...

...the kooks will come up with one. that's the only sign of mental activity they display (highly fanciful and creative excuses for blowing up stuff).

[livinbella]

3. Iran trumps bush!

They wasted no time foiling his evil plan.

[mom cat]

14. Old Europe did not do so bad either!

[livinbella]

40. Europe did very well indeed!

I am proud of them.

[__Inanna__]

56. Thank God for Europe

This is the only positive thing I have heard, prior to the election. I am sooooooo relieved. Maybe I can sleep before 5 a.m. tonight. Maybe all is not a lost cause. Thank you Iran, as well.

[Spazito]

5. My my my, this is getting interesting...

The bush admin left out in the cold yet again, the EU gaining strength every day.

[aquart]

21. Bush incompetence has left a huge power vacuum.

Contenders are rushing to fill it. Bush let the world find out they don't need us.

Fucking idiot.

[oneighty]

26. Winning hand

Peace in the ME and a successful EU then perhaps we can get back to concentrating on US.

180

[hughee99]

42. I would think this would work for *

The Iranians won't be developing nukes and we didn't have to make any concessions to them. All he has to do is "support old Europe's effort" and it's a good situation for him. Since he's not involved in the negotiations, he doesn't have to abide by any agreement they make, or give up anything.

[dave420]

63. Good, except...

... that Bush didn't support the efforts. He played no part in it. This was Europe doing what Europe does best - mediate. When you get a group of nations acting together for a clear common cause (ie no alterior motives or conflicts of interest), offering real alternatives to violence and threats, diplomacy works very well indeed. The real problems start when you think diplomacy involves foot soldiers and daisy cutters, but we all know that already. Iran's not stupid enough to monkey around with this, as it would get one hell of a beating if the US moved in. Of course, Iran has a massive military and the US would be beaten, but its infrastructure would prefer to avoid guerilla warfare or tactical nukes if possible.

[indigolady]

6. sounds like pre ww I

[Anarcho-Socialist]

44. I agree, alot of events recently feel remarkably similar to pre-1914

[DBoon]

8. Britain?

Is a certain poodle going to get whacked with a rolled-up newspaper for being bad?

[AP]

9. This is sort of like the UK negotiating with Libya. They're removing the..

...RW boogeymen one by one. They're trying to stop future Iraqs exploited by future RW American presidents.

[aquart]

22. Wisely so.

[Karenca]

25. my sentiment exactly

n/t

[PROGRESSIVE1]

10. If Tony the Poodle goes along with Europe on this......

combined with China's oil deal, Bush CANNOT attack Iran without causing a SERVERE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS!

[whosinpower]

11. It changes nothing

Just my monday skepticsm at play. The Iranians only agreed to cease until the negotiations are complete or until they fall apart at the seams. Bushco cannot have a voice in this - he is out of credibility....but he will do whatever his vision tells him to...and if that means creating bogus intelligence - so be it....it that means sanctions against Iran using that bogus intelligence - so be it.

The CIA will be ground into submission come hell or highwater - and they WILL comply...for Bushco cannot stand any dissent - bwahahahaha

[Zhade]

13. Good. There is NO REASON to attack Iran. Period.

They are not threatening us. Hell, they're not even threatening Israel, they're trying to defend themselves against both countries.

This is a positive step. Now b*sh cannot claim that Britain is okay with any attack plans. Excellent.

[Anakin Skywalker]

38. BUT BUT BUT!

You forgot Poland! :)

Heh heh.

[malachi]

15. How much do you want to bet that the mainstream media turns

this into a chimp foriegn policy victory?

[cubsfan forever]

31. Unfortunately, that is a good point,

our corporate media whores will be trying desperately to spin this into a case of Ass-munch being a "uniter."
:puke: :nuke:

[othermeans]

89. Would you stop calling the media whores! You're giving whores a bad name

[Anarcho-Socialist]

45. Yes they'll say that pre-emptive war scared Iran into giving up WMDs

[minorl]

16. At least someone else is bribing them...

[Burma Jones]

18. True True...........................n/t

[Dhalgren]

20. Oh bullshit!

[Gregorian]

17. Our Chimp is SO STUPID. He could have done that.

But it was beneath him. Bombs were never neccisary. And the Europeans are proving it. This idiot in the WH could have done more good with negotiations. But he had to spend our surplus, kill our boys, alienate the world, and achieve less than nothing.

And I would wager that the amount of oil he has used in his war on Iraq would have been enough to power the US for years. Supreme Idiot.

[proudbluestater]

28. EU says "Shove it" to Chimpy. Gotta love it!

We are now considered just some rogue state with little international standing. Just a bunch of cowboys with no regard for decency or the rule of law.

Glad the EU took control of the situation. We are sadly isolated by the fascists who stole at least two elections.

[Karenca]

27. I hope that ass is happy now that we are totally isolated from the rest of

In Washington, White House press secretary Scott McClellan withheld judgment on the agreement, saying: "We will be talking to our friends and allies about this agreement. We will have more to say after we've had the opportunity to learn more about the specific details. At this point, we have not had that opportunity."

Yeah, Scott, Our friends and allies...they didn't even confer
with us.
I can't wait ti see this administration implode!!!!!!!!

:spank:

[proudbluestater]

29. As it gets sadder, the humor emerges...

"In Washington, White House press secretary Scott McClellan withheld judgment on the agreement, saying: "We will be talking to our friends and allies about this agreement. We will have more to say after we've had the opportunity to learn more about the specific details."

HEY SCOTT, MAKE THAT OUR "ALLY," SINGULAR. And that ally just stabbed you in the back, dude.

[MADem]

30. This suggests to me

...that in our lifetime, OLD EUROPE is moving towards CHINA as the NEXT BIG CHEESE. They'll be calling us the Former Superpower if this shit keeps up.

Iran is playing an interesting "non-aligned" game, much like India did with the US and the old USSR--and India has clearly benefitted from that strategy. We all know that China is up to its ass in Iran--they buy most of Iran's oil, and you know damn well the Iranians did not make the progress with their nuke programs without some covert Chinese help. All this agreement does is let the Old Europeans oversee the nuke programs (the Chinese probably weren't all that thrilled about being involved anyway) and it also gives the Old Europeans a place to find common ground with the Chinese (who own a shitload of our debt, which is something we should be concerned about).

If your school system offers Chinese, insist that your kids take it, at least long enough to learn "Don't shoot! We have no weapons! My mother is old, please spare her!"

Excessively pessimistic assessment, I know, but better to prepare for the worst while hoping for the best....

[Condor]

57. What's with all this Old Europe?

After Rumsfeld said "Old Europe" for the first time, everybody seems to be picking up on this. It has a negative connotation, and many Europeans don't like to be called Old.

[Redwraith]

60. Personally

I don't mind being called a part of old Europe.
It differentiates me and my country from countries that go to war without reason.
We might do it the old ways without heaven send vision's but hey it works.

[0007]

65. What was with all the snide remarks in this administration

about France & Germany when they wouldn't go along with junior and his war with Iraq? Europe understands the meaning when we use, "Old Europe"

The negative connotation is with this junior and his thugs.

[tavalon]

81. and being a former superpower

is bad in what way? We suck at it, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Old and In the Way]

33. Does this mean Old Europe is part of the Axis of Evil?

Looks like OE is still practicing diplomacy. Good for them. Hats of to Bush, he is one hell of a uniter.

[Mist]

47. Pre-emptive diplomacy

I hope it works in preventing anymore of shrub's wars, or at least a war with Iran.

[Az_lefty]

34. Wow..guess we got left out on this one.

thanks Europe for taking the lead on this one, I'm afraid we reelected the idiot in the Whitehouse.
:hi:

[cal04]

35. Blair and Bush had to have discussed this while he was here.

It doesn't seem like this should come as a surprise to Bush.


MIDEAST TOP OF AGENDA

The Middle East peace process is set to dominate talks in Washington today between President George Bush and Tony Blair.

Other topics include relations between the US and EU; concerns over Iran's supposed nuclear weapons programme; climate change; and issues affecting the developing world.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13247849,00.html

[Old and In the Way]

36. If they did, Bush certainly didn't let on.

This puts Old Europe squarely back in the ME and the fact that we are still studying the announcement tells me we weren't "onboard".

I hope that Israel doesn't decide to throw a wrench into this by taking unilateral action....

[four more wars]

74. I'm Sure it went a bit like this:

Tony: So what are we going to do about Iran then George
Dubya: Iran?, why we're gonna bomb the shit out of Iran
Tony: Ahhhhh, wellll, I've kinda been speaking to Jacques and Gerhard about that
Dubya: Who?
Tony: You Know, Chirac and Schroeder
Dubya: No Idea, hand me another pretzel and stick the game on the TV
Tony: Presidents of France and Germany
Dubya: Cheese eating surrender monkeys the lot of them
Tony: Yes, well, we kind of came up with another solution
Dubya: We nuke them first?
Tony: Well, more along the lines of talking to them
Dubya: But how do we get the oil if we don't bomb them first?, I don't think Dicks gonna like that at all
Tony: I'm not really sure another war in the middle east is for the good
Dubya: Look Tony, we don't care what you think, just run along now and I'll have KKKarl send you a note about what to tell everyone when you join us. Works well for me when I can't figure out what to say.
Tony: Look, we're really going to try and sort this out without a war, why not get on board, show the world that it's not just about wars for oil, that we are trying to solve the worlds problems together.
Dubya: But it is just about the oil, at least thats what Dick says. And besides who listens to you guys? we're the leaders of the free world... No one listens to anyone else.



*****************************************

Story Breaks in the US

*****************************************

In the white house:

Dick: Ahhhh, George, did Tony mention anything about Iran when he was over?
Dubya: Yeah, some crackpot theory about them trying to sort out Iran without bombing them, I told him to shut up, because then you wouldn't get your oil.
Dick: How many FUCKING times do I have to tell you, you do not speak to adults unless you are accompanied by some one responsible!!
Dubya: Sorry Dick
Dick: Now run along and have a nice glass of milk before bed, I'm going to call your Daddy and work out how to fix this mess.

[Anakin Skywalker]

37. So Who Needs Chickenhawk Bush?

Those three managed to work it out with Iran. This must be sorely disappointing for the chickenhawks in the Bush admin. who were hoping to add iran to their list of invaded and "pacified" countries.

[PATRICK]

41. NYT completely ignores

The well advertised, leaked and obvious march against Iran by Bush. This Euro move is to quickly undercut Bush and signal they are not bowing this term either. But the NYT ignoring this of course is the continued deliberate blindness to the obvious Bush aggression.

Such blindness will continue with vigorous effort to not see the war coming until it is "support the troops" all over again.

What a waste of newsprint.

[Condor]

58. Just preparing the grounds

for declaring this a * diplomatic victory.

[shrike]

82. Yep

They mentioned it briefly on CBS news the other night. Made no mention of Europe's involvement; inferred it was the good ol' USA that pulled it off.

[MileHiStealth]

43. Next thing we know, OPEC will switch to Euros ....

for the Petrodollar, and the US economy will collapse.
Thought the Great Depression was bad ? You ain't seen nothin'...

[Condor]

59. On that topic:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

Don't ask me to explain that link in more detail, because i can't.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

46. Maybe the U.S. will decide to invade Syria instead?

Before the Europeans start making peaceful negotiations with Syria.

[Mist]

48. see post 43

I think a lot of economic pressure will be put on the US to prevent any more unilateral wars. We're not that far from economic collapse as it is. If oil is pegged to euros, that strips out our economy. Then the cororate heads will simply retire from America and follow their money to those off-shore tax havens.

[msanthrope]

67. You got it--we are being ratfucked by the EU, and anyone else

who can do so.

Tough to know who to root for.

[TankLV]

52. My bets - if I had any - would be Cuba. It's another repuke wet dream.

[Raster]

53. This is a warning shot across the bow. The EU has asserted itself....

...and is working to lower the possibility of an American invasion. I bet gee-dubya is FIT TO BE TIED. How dare they interfere with his middle east ambitions??

One thing the US seems to forget: the rest of the world also gets a large portion of their oil also from the middle east. There is no way the rest of the world is going to sit by and watch $hrubco fuck up the energy supply. No way.

[Carolab]

54. Right...

and they pretty much don't want a nuclear disaster either, I'd wager.

[jjanpundt]

75. The shrubistas may be the uniting factor for the EU

to get itself together as a cohesive unit. Dumbya may think the U.S. can stand alone but he's delusional. We could be looking at very scary times in the next few months. European contingency plans are probably going full tilt as more info comes out about the people * wants to put into power.

[KayLaw]

66. PNAC, Iraq, and Iran

I just did a quick Google search to see where Iran fits into the Bushies plans. It seems that after a regime change in Iraq, they planned to stick around because Iran could pose as much a problem as Iraq.

Then they talk about going onto China, along with our allies, of course. China? Allies? It seems our allies are aligning themselves with Iran so forget that, and definitely forget China. Right?

China! Can you believe that? I'm not a PNAC expert - maybe I'm reading wrong?

[Brundle_Fly]

87. I seem to remember that

PNAC was going to go onto syria, & Lebannon next....

and china is all new to me...

[bin.dare]

68. Iran oil to be priced in euros

the complex agreement Iran and the EU worked out was only partially the nuke stuff, the really significant stuff has to do with petro-euros and Iran's new "oil stock exchange". couple this with the recent huge china oil deal and you have the pending financial (and hence total) collapse of the US in a couple of years --- with the only military shots being fired being those of the US. for the folks at home, look for more wars on more little countries in the near future.

[Politicub]

69. This is going to be the EU's century

And that's a good thing. The EU is at the forefront of rights of the individual and economic justice.

The US will become, if it hasn't already, an impotent country with a big stick.

Sad.

[Raster]

76. No, this will be China's century. I think everyone around the

middle east table is covering their bets. The pnac/us had one chance, one gamble and they took it and failed miserably.

[Barkley]

72. Anything in the EU-Iran agreement about Iran exporting in euros?

That may be next.

France is right , (again) The world in multipolar!

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

73. Noooooo!!! we were supposed to attack them!

I guess this is what happens when you have adults in charge.

[flobee1kenobi]

77. when we can no longer

repay our debt to China, they will foreclose, evicting the likes of chimp.
the US has been left out of the loop on purpose. We are no longer seen as credible or even peaceful. The countries this administration "didn't need" have worked together and left us behind. They have done what we expected bushco to do, and they did it well.
Anytime there is a crisis or trouble from here on-who do you think they will look to for hope ang guidance?
Not us!
nobody wants to be like America anymore.
wouldnt even be suprised to see immigration drop off-the American dream has been outsourced to India!

[desi826]

83. Exactly. I predicted this long time ago but

what worries me is the fact that with every success their confidence will grow, and the Idiot's stubborness will as well.
If he continues to act as though the world WILL bow to his wishes, and invades a country anyway, the world may be forced to have a little meeting--without us.

I fear we will see bombs in our own country for the first time in centuries.

It is dangerous to us all that he is as hated as he is.
It is even more dangerous that alot of people in this country are completely unaware of just how hated he is.
They will be the ones completely unprepared if this country is ever invaded because of the Idiot's actions.
I see such potential disaster in this second term.
Des

[natrat]

86. no doubt alot of americans

dont want to be like americans anymore

[gordianot]

78. On NPR last week they did a piece about wargaming Iran.

It seems the "Pentagon Planners" considered options for invading Iran with current assets in Iraq and Afghanistan. When I heard that at 6:00 in the morning I about drove my van off the road. Seems none of the games worked out and they decided to "can the idea" whatever that means. My first thought "Where did this come from?", "Why disclose this?" Military planning is a very secretive bunch, they actually interviewed some who were involved. I have heard mention of this nowhere other than NPR since. Curious.

I have played wargames (board, miniatures, and computer) for 30 years (hobby) and can testify to their accuracy. It is very easy to re-fight Gettysburg and come up with the historical result. Political variables like much of human behavior is unpredictable which makes strategic gaming almost impossible. The military part cost in lives is possible to predict, amateurs do it all the time. The professionals know, for them to admit it would not work is unprecedented in my experience. I have never heard of this kind of information being released to the public before.

I have a link:

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4145036

[PATRICK]

79. they wargamed Iraq

and the bright lads playing Hussein whipped us by going unconventional. That didn't happen where it might have damaged the invasion at the start but the concept of dealing with unconventional forces on their home ground did not sink in as an easy principle to predict, considering the Iraqi training.

Things can balance out when both sides blunder as happened, and might conquered messily, but not in the fundamentals. The Iraqis are using their advantages now. We are still locked in dumb mode, weaknesses growing and exposed, the populace being lost, the fatal drag of war profiteering damning the entire enterprise.

It has become a training ground for how we can be beaten more than our learning the horrible arts of urban warfare.

The purpose of the game is to stimulate thought more than anything else. Thought, other than pride and greed, has nothing to do with the criminal implementation ruling our war machine.

[gordianot]

80. When I first heard the NPR report I would swear they gave rank.

That would mean it was Pentagon planners.

Before he died Col. Trever DuPuy set up a model to account for casualties. With the 38 casualties reported in Falluja following DuPuy numbers there must be as many as 300-400 wounded, this is a very intensive battle that will not end soon. All wars are terrible but an unconventional war is particularly odious. No model works well confronted with unconventional war. The Army did not like his HERO model but he was right on time-line and was close on the casualty rate within a 1% margin of error Gulf II. I would have to look at his website but he was only beginning to analyze Vietnam. You would think the Pentagon would do its own number crunching I have heard they depended on number crunchers like DuPuy. American troops are undermanned now and the Pentagon knows it.

The unconventional war is upon us. With all the talk of the Jedi Knights reforming Military planning the last 2 decades, this shows that they still have not learned the lessons to be willing to fight a war with political interference. Where is there an obtainable objective, was there ever any objective? Bet there are a lot of retirements in the Pentagon among planners.

I would be willing to bet LBJ is laughing in his grave to see a carpetbagger Texas Republican in this mess.

[leesa]

91. And why shouldn't the Iranians be allowed to defend themselves?

You can't use the arguement of "they would attack the defenseless" because that is EXACTLY what the US did in Afghanistan and Iraq. So why can't they have nukes if Israel has several hundred pointed at them?