Marines Look to Fallujah Reconstruction(while the dead lay in the street)

[maddezmom]

~snip~

It's incredible, the destruction. It's overwhelming," said Sgt. Todd Bowers, a Marine civil affairs specialist attached to the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment who is helping determine reconstruction needs. "My first question is: Where to begin?"

~snip~

Dead Iraqis still lay out in the open Monday, their stiff limbs akimbo, like department store mannequins knocked off their pedestals. At least two women were seen among the dead.


Most civilians appeared to have fled before the offensive, given early warning by Iraqi and U.S. leaders, but some stayed. A few families walked out of town Monday.


Some districts reeked from the sickening odor of rotting flesh, a stench too powerful for a brisk breeze sweeping in from the sandy plain surrounding the city 40 miles west of Baghdad. A Marine-directed body collection effort begun a day earlier stalled Monday when Iraqi workers demanded that Marines first open a road to their village.

more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/fallujah_wasteland&cid=540&ncid=1480

:(

[Briar]

1. and will they bring the dead back to life?

and least those who voted for Bush can feel they got some payback.

[Mandate My Ass]

2. Ugh!

They won't let the relief trucks in to help the survivors and they can't even wait to bury the dead before rushing the Halliburton contractors in there to make a buck.

[malachi]

3. War crime. Plan and simple. When will the monkey and his minions

be forced into the docket to pay for this atrocity? No different that the fun that the Serbs and Croats had in the 90's. They are being tried as criminals in the World Court. Oh, that's right, we don't recognize the WC for obvious reasons.

[Javaman]

4. Iraq...land of opportunity....

Reporter: Son, what has your experience been like during the battle?

Pvt.Yahoo: It's been great! Really pumps me up with hope!

Reporter: Hope?

Pvt.Yahoo: Damn tootin! This is the land of opportunity!!

Reporter: How so, considering you just basically flattened the whole town?

Pvt.Yahoo: This place is ripe for commerce, that is of course once all the bodies are cleaned up.

Reporter: Speaking of which, there certainly seems like alot of dead civilians?

Pvt.Yahoo: Oh them? They just got in the way. For example: look at those two dead over there on the corner, that's were I'm gonna build me a wal-mart!!

[saigon68]

5. The troops who got the "EASY KILLS" are celebrating

Killed a few more rag heads

[minorl]

6. Old time newsreels had their purpose...

Average Americans cannot stomach what war produces...I'd like to see the numbers comparison between Falluja deaths and the bodies recovered in all of Saddam's mass graves.

Your American freedom had a cost...the American Revolution killed anywhere from 40,000 to 100,000 people.

Ugly? Yes.
Acceptable...? If the Iraqi's take responsibility and carve their own freedom, yes.

[HFishbine]

9. Lame comparison

The British did not kill colonists to force democracy upon them.

[minorl]

14. No they killed colonists for land and trade opportunities...

Are you not free though? My point was to relate the death toll paid for your way of life...for the hope of a better life for the Iraqis.

[HFishbine]

28. And my point

that would be hard to get through to a freeper mind, is that killing people to "free" them is an immoral act and those who support it will burn in hell. Got it?

[RyomaSakamoto]

10. you sound like one of the imperial japanese officers occupying NANKING

[minorl]

15. You've seen this picture...I've seen the carnage in person...

I don't agree with the innocent killing, but as a planner I know that "we" (the military) using Humanitarian contact teams and Civil Affairs detachments, spread the word for innocent civilians to leave the area well in advance. (Note: this allowed the "bad guys" to leave the area too.) If they (the innocent) are still there...they are there on their own volition. Kind of like the people in trailer parks who stay in the swath of an oncomming hurricane...not too smart.

If the "innocents" stepped up and assumed responsibility for their own community, defended their families on their own by handing the dissidents over to their own Iraqi police, then we wouldn't have had to go in there. We wouldn't have lost 31+ Marines.

It isn't a cut and dry arguement, but being a realist is required.

[daleo]

21. So now you're a hurricane?

Hurricanes are an act of God.

[minorl]

22. You're missing the point

[HFishbine]

30. See ya.

I've had enough of this crap. You can sit back and watch what your false piety will reap on TV, you don't need to be here where you don't belong. We find war without cause immoral.

[RyomaSakamoto]

25. so wtf does that mean? it doesn't justify our WAR CRIMES

you probably think the geneva conventions are quaint as well, eh :crazy:

[TexasLady]

32. I dont get this logic

so if you are poor, old, or disabled, have NO WHERE to GO, no car, and where ever you do go is probably more of the same, how is that like saying, oh boy the guns are comin' and here I sit cause Im stupid.

[maddezmom]

36. read post#27, sums it up nicely

:eyes:
here's a snipet
~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men
stand by and let evil happen son, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all. Our
President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that
this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we
can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our
window so that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels
that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't
affect him. "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE
TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL
NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...

[RyomaSakamoto]

37. too bad the iraqi children can't just 'CLOSE THEIR BLINDS'

phew, this person sounds HIGH on the kool-aid :crazy:

[TexasLady]

39. oh i see, how could i be so blind...

the war in Iraq is RIGHT, right? ah have seeen the light...</sarcasm and vomit>

[Career Prole]

40. And if you had stayed the hell out there wouldn't be any dead Marines.

I'm a realist.

[rooboy]

41. Go and be a realist with your own country.

who the fuck do you think you are by telling the people who LIVE there to get out of the way? You have NO right to be in that country at all.

No wonder the world hates Americans.

[sidpleasant]

42. here's one of those Iraqis who didn't "step up and assume responsability"

Too bad for 2 year old Mustafa that he decided to stay in Falluja of his own volition, right? If only he'd been smart enough to hand over Zarqawi to the police he'd still have that left leg.

[Javaman]

47. Stepped up responsibility? Handing over the dissidents????

You make it sound as if this is some sort of fucking neighborhood watch program. Are you that twisted? Do you really believe this line of bullshit rhetoric?

So let's see, according to your logic, Joe Blow Iraqi, says to himself, "let me be a good patriot, I'll go out and rat out some Rebels with rockets, Ak's, grenades, etc, and all I have is a pure heart for a free Iraq! Yeah, booyeah!, they will happily follow me back to the US Green zone!"
Are you totally beyond reason???
The US military are calling these rebels die-hards, do you really think a tongue lashing by some poor Iraqi civilian, trying to protect his family from US bombs, is going to rush out there and tell these guys to cut it out???
Your appalling rational for killing thousands of people is outright disgusting.
So it's these people fault that are hiding in there homes, were just in the way because they were to frightened to leave? If you have any clue, you will also know that these same people are being told that if they leave the city, Americans will kill them on site.
So as a civilian who are you supposed to believe? Your country men or and invading army who is flattening cities??

And lastly, you are comparing the deaths of 31 marines, who are there on orders to shoot to kill to Iraqi civilians who have been killed in the 1000's who were in the way, to suddenly follow lock step on order of the US military???
You have lost touch with reality.

You state that you have seen the carnage in person, but do you empathize with the civilian plight? It appears not.

You state you are a realist? Here is a dose of reality, they don't want us there. Period. They hate us, the loath us. Once Saddam was overthrown, wanted us to leave.
Read up on your history. Read about the middle-east mentality. Understand why the do the things the do. Learn their culture. You are indeed the Ugly American. We have overstayed our welcome and caused a mess. That is reality.

[2Design]

51. if males 15-45 were not allowed to leave - the families would have

stayed with their men - families here would

that is mass murder - a firing squad is what they did but with more destruction for affect to pretend it wasn't a firing squad

[tblue37]

63. When the Serbs

rounded up the men and boys in a town and killed them all, we called it genocide.

So if we don't allow men and boys to flee, but insist that they all stay so we can kill them all. . . .

Well, it seems to me that the only real difference is that we went through the city after them instead of packing them all into a small enough space, say a town square or a field outside the city, so they could all be killed at once.

Now, the Nazis were very efficient about it. They usually had their victims dig their own mass grave before machine-gunning them into them.

[Justathought]

56. This arguement is so much like the Viet Nam argument

for massacering villages of innocent civilians. Could you please tell me where these civilians who were probably the poorest in that city to go. Did the U.S. military first go from door to door to help these civilans escape? I doubt it. How do you justify the death of civilians who were already persecuted by Saddam Hussein? Our soldiers did not deserve to die this way.

[MrPrax]

58. Your not a realist...

your an apologist for war crimes...

[sr_pacifica]

64. And just like people who stay in "trailer parks"

---usually poor working people, mind you---there are reasons that some Iraqi people stayed that had everything to do with their poverty. What if people had no where to go?

You are the one making the "cut and dry" argument.

[livinbella]

12. This pogrom has nothing to do with Iraqi Freedom!

Are you serious?

[livinbella]

13. Come to think of it, Rush Limbaugh said that only last week

Why do you believe it?

[maddezmom]

16. this poster quoted O'Lielly in another thread

:eyes:

[minorl]

20. Don't make assumptions

I'm an active duty Marine. Just transferred to Miami. I'm working on my MA in Literature at Florida International University. Democrats are rare in the Marine Corps, but I am one. My views on war and Iraq might seem RW, but it is only because USMC is my profession. My wife and kids want us out of Iraq as soon as possible, as do I.

I hate when people make general judgements on the military, that we are all baby killers and happy to be killing women and children. That just isn't true. War is ugly, but to say we need to just pull out is unrealistic.

Re: O'reily. I also look at the MEMRI: Middle East Media Research Institute...does that make me an Arab?

[maddezmom]

23. no assumptions...just stating a fact

you quoted O'Lielly in another thread. :shrug:

[RyomaSakamoto]

35. sounds like your CONSCIENCE may be mess'n with you

but no-one here is making 'general judgments on the military, that we are all baby killers and happy to be killing women and children."

that is the STRAW-MAN the right-wing-wackos love to create as soon as ANY criticism is leveled at our war and foreign policy, but it is BULLSHIT.

we have the RIGHT as AMERICANS to criticize and dissent when we go off course from our shared principals and laws.

we are committing WAR CRIMES in falluja and this needs to be addressed or we will all pay in the end.

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." - Thomas Paine


pilot rescue swimmer

[maddezmom]

48. minorl, are you a recruiter for the Marines??

just wondering :shrug:

[TacticalPeek]

50. "the wrong war, the wrong place and the wrong time" Marine General Zinni.

In a slashing criticism of the Bush White House and Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon leadership, General Zinni, former Commander of Central Command of U.S. Military, and Special Envoy to the Middle East in the Bush Administration until he resigned in disgust, said "Heads should roll at the Pentagon--Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith and those who foisted the Iraq war on the U.S. despite my objections and those of most U.S. Generals including, Schwartkopf, Skowcroft, Clark, Shinseki and others."

Speaking on 60 MINUTES,May 23, Zinni said, "The plan was wrong, it was the wrong war, the wrong place and the wrong time--with little or no planning." He stated that there were serious "derelictions of duty," "criminal negligence," and poor planning that put U.S. forces in harm's way and left Iraq in chaos after the invasion. Further, he added that the Pentagon's man on the ground, Paul Bremer, had made "mistake after mistake after mistake."

...

Zinni's forthright, position was also attacked by some politicos in the White House and elsewhere who said he should be "loyal" and not criticize the government during war time. Zinni retorted, "Suppose you went to war with a rifle that malfunctioned and got your soldiers killed, would you just keep your mouth shut and let your men be killed or would you speak up?" He went on to say, "We have a policy in this war that is worse than a malfunctioning rifle, and it is our American duty to speak up", just as General Shinseki has spoken up and as have others who worked in the CIA, Military Intelligence, Inspection of Iraq group and others.

As Zinni pointed out, all the generals who knew the situation in the Middle East had testified to the Congress and to the White House that "Saddam was contained with the no-fly, no-drive zones and by the embargoes; he was under control and was not a threat to anyone." He went on to say that we had a major problem after 9/11 with Al Qaeda and Afghanistan, then suddenly our focus was taken from that and diverted to Iraq. By attacking Iraq we lost our focus on terrorism. In addition, instead of our standing and assistance growing in the Middle East, it went kaput and is getting worse every day.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hamod05242004.html

-----------------------------------------------


Being a general of the Corps, and former CINC of CENTCOM, General Anthony Zinni is an experienced expert in this matter, and very much the realist, would you not agree, minorl?

What in his analysis do you find objectionable?

[DELUSIONAL]

54. The US invaded Iraq -- the US is the aggressor --

International War crimes have and are happening --
What happened in Falluja was/is a war crime and everyone who was involved . . . should be judged just as Germans and Japanese were judged by the self righeous Americans.
What would WE do if we were invaded?

For evey person murdered by the US -- countless others are ready and willing to avenge the death of a clan member.





http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

The Falluja in Pictures blogger write: Pictures from Fallujah wanted
Anyone who has up to date photos from Fallujah that didn't make their way to the mainstream press, please email them to [e-mail]. I'm not going to say I have any great mission with this. I'm really fucking angry with my country and I don't know what else to do.

[LynnTheDem]

60. bush apologist

Your ignorance is very deep. Spend some time learnign the FACTS, dear. Your being AD is no excuse for your deep & total ignorance; my husband is also AD and he knows the FACTS.; and it sure as shit ain't what Dildo O'Reilly is spewing.

[sr_pacifica]

65. I hope your studies challenge your USMC world-view n/t

[minorl]

18. Please don't compare me with that pompous prig.

I don't like the facts of the arguement, but my job forces me to face them on a practical and humane level. I'm a SSgt in the Marines, and I have to lead these young kids. I have to ensure that they see the humanity amid the chaos of war. These kids really care about the Iraqi people.

I'm surrounded by FREEP's at work, so if some of their rhetoric echoes in my posts...I'm sorry. I'm not for the war...I'm for doing the job right, getting my Marines home alive.

[Iver Johnson]

62. Semper Fi, Staff.

I'm also active duty USMC, 28 yrs in next month. Just keep in mind what you know is right and take care of your Marines. There's no affection for us or those like us around here, but I've found it to be an interesting place to mostly lurk.

[newyawker99]

66. Hi Iver Johnson!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Malva Zebrina]

24. We did not start this war because of Saddam's mass graves

This was began with lies, and more lies, and more lies from Bush and all those who hungered to get their hands on Iraq's stuff. Saddam's mass graves? Who supplied the gas to Saddam, knowing what he was doing with it?

Saddam was no threat to the US and it was well known he was no threat and that is why Bush had to lie--over and over. He coveted Iraq and it's spoils and nothing was going to get in his way.

Now we have carnage and slaughter. Pictures of little children in pink dresses lying dead and decapitated in Fallujah streets and for what? What were we doing in Fallujah and why? To kill civilians. Sure they were told to leave, except for the men age 15 to 50 and if those tried to leave they were rudely ushered right back in. The place was bombed mercilessly before the troop assault on Fallujah, blowing up people and their houses. No reason except that they must have been in the way.

[minorl]

27. Pretend your are 9 Years old for a sec.

A Military Story -- Don't Close Your Blinds

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My
husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in
the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our
Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good
explanation.
My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our
front living room window. He said "Son, stand there and tell me what you
see?"
"I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
States of America and you are President Bush."
Our son giggled and said "OK."
"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and
yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
"OK Dad, I'm pretending."
"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you see
Saddam come out of his house with his wife, he has her by the hair and is
hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he
throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their
children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are screaming and crying,
they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and they are
afraid of their father. You see all of this son.... what do you do?"
"Dad?"
"What do you do son?"
"I'd call the police, Dad."
"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call,
listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do
then son?"
"Dad.......... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your
place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says
"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you
to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
"Daddy...he kills them?"
"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
husband says.
"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.
"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs
out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"
"What Daddy?"
"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door
and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then.
.he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in he window and laughs
at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
"Daddy..."
"WHAT DO YOU DO?"
Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I'd close the blinds,
Daddy."
My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?"
"Because Daddy...the police are supposed to help people who needs them...and
they won't help.... You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP
neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm
afraid....I can't do it by myself Daddy.....I can't look out my window and
just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so...
I'm just going to close the blinds.... so I can't see what he's doing.......
and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."
I start to cry.
My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking
pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he says...
Son"
"Yes, Daddy."
"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU
DO?"
My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his
tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he
says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY
SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his chest
and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's too strong
and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him
BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady across the way.
You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before it's
too late." my husband whispers.
THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men
stand by and let evil happen son, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all. Our
President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that
this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we
can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our
window so that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels
that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't
affect him. "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE
TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL
NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...

[maddezmom]

31. so you're a * supporter??

that looks like a chain letter I'd get from my born-again republican relatives...trying to convert me.

[HFishbine]

33. Now your're posting Freeper crapola?

Tick. Tick. Tick.

[Malva Zebrina]

38. When good men stand by and do nothing

evil prevails and that is exactly what 59% in this election, have done. I hestitate to call them good men.

No--we are more than that.

A president of this country does not just go about satisfying his megalomania, lying to his own people , and attacking any old place that poses NO threat to the US, in Iraq's case a soveregn country, on the planet, that he deems evil for no other purpose than to satisfy his overwhelming greed.

No one will profit or gain anything from this slaughter except for the big businesses and the private army, ten or more thousand of them who are the mercenaries.

The rest of the millions, including citizens of the US, will invariably suffer in some way.

No way no how can that ever be justified. EVER. It can NEVER be justified in the mind of any person with a conscience.

[dkofos]

43. Pretend your intelligent.

If we had taken care of Sadam in the 80's none of this would have happened.
Oh you say, we did take care of sadam in the 80's.
Right, we armed him, so he could make war on Iran, we supported and him gave him a pat on the back when he gassed the Kurds, we looked the other when he invaded Kuait, when the Shia were ready to rebel to oust him after the kicked him out of Kuait we told them we would support them, but we didn't, we just walked away.

I'm glad your not my dad.

[mog]

45. Look at this-capital letters

YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE
TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL
NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...
May I add be a drone! embrace newspeak! and glorious leader is always right.
The author must have thought he just wrote some important groundbreaking analysis. I must have heard this poor excuse a hundred times. The US government is stuck on cold war mentality, and not many other countries in this world are interested in a game of word play.
THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men
stand by and let evil happen son, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all.
For this argument to work, we will have to first assume that Bush Co is composed of good man.

[Blue_Tires]

46. that e-mail is pretty stale...

was posted here like 18 mos ago...and seems even more foolish now (if that's possible)

[leftchick]

49. If you have the guts, pretend you are THIS 9 yr old for a sec....

He won't be seeing the 'freedom on the march' in his country anytime soon. That post has the most warped logic I have ever read.






U.S. Army critical care nurse Cpt. Marvetta Walker checks on a 9-year-old Fallujah boy who was wounded in the face and stomach, while at the 31st Combat Support Hospital in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites) Monday, Nov. 15, 2004. The boy was in critical condition. The hospital has been treating both American wounded as well as civilians from the Fallujah fighting.(AP Photo/John Moore)

[Mandate My Ass]

53. LOL, I think maybe you should change your major, Sarge

that's one pathetically crappy piece of writing and an even crappier excuse for an argument and I'd be ashamed to post it even anonymously.

[LynnTheDem]

57. What total BULLSHIT.

American ignorance at it's deepest level.

[LynnTheDem]

61. Iraq NOT HUMANITARIAN INTERVENTION

The vast majority of Americans say "humanitarian" is not justification;

In the latest PIPA polls, only 27 percent of respondents said they think that countries have the right, without UN approval, to overthrow another government that is committing "substantial violations of its citizens' human rights,".

41 percent said that intervention could be justified if the violations were "large-scale, extreme and equivalent to genocide."

In the case of Iraq, however, only 32 percent of respondents believed both that human rights abuses equivalent to genocide justified intervention and that such extreme violations were occurring under Hussein's rule.

Asked, "Do you think that there are other governments existing today that have human rights records as bad as that of Iraq under Saddam Hussein?" an overwhelming 88 percent said there are.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1114-06.htm

The war in Iraq CANNOT be justified as an intervention in defense of human rights even though it ended a brutal regime, Human Rights Watch said Monday, dismissing one of the Bush administration's main arguments (after the fact) for the invasion.

While Saddam Hussein had an atrocious human rights record, his worst actions occurred LONG BEFORE THE WAR and there was NO ONGOING or imminent mass killing in Iraq when the conflict began, the advocacy group said in its annual report.

President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair cited the threat from Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction as their main reason for attacking Iraq. But as coalition forces have failed to find evidence of such weapons, both leaders have also highlighted the brutality of the regime when justifying military intervention.

Human Rights Watch, however, said SUCH CLAIMS WERE INVALID.

"The Bush administration cannot justify the war in Iraq as a humanitarian intervention, and neither can Tony Blair," executive director Kenneth Roth said.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0126-07.htm

Another bush TOTAL LIE:

"Remember we discovered mass graves with hundreds of thousands of men and women and children clutching their little toys, as a result of this person's brutality."

-Bush, November 16, 2003

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/frost/transcript.html

Oh we did, huh?

Blair admits Iraq graves claim untrue

British Prime Minister Tony Blair's office has admitted that repeated claims that 400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves were untrue, The Observer newspaper reported on Sunday.

According to the paper, only 5,000 corpses have been uncovered.

The claims by Blair last November and December were given widespread credence, quoted by British lawmakers and widely published, including in the introduction to a US government pamphlet on Iraq's mass graves.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html

In the absence of mass graves from the 1990s to the present,in the absence of ongoing or imminent atrocities, how can we say that we saved more Iraqis by going to war than if we hadn’t? An estimated ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND IRAQI CIVILIANS have been KILLED, 85% from US & ALLIED ATTACKS.

And fuck the rightwingnut "better late than never" bullshit that we had to hold SH accountable for crimes from 20+ years ago:

Blair: March 2, 2003

"If military action proves necessary, it will be to uphold the authority of the UN and to ensure Saddam is disarmed of his weapons of mass destruction, not to overthrow him. It is why, detestable as I find his regime, he could stay in power if he disarms peacefully."

http://www.sundayherald.com/print31827

Bush: March 5, 2003

"We are doing everything we can to avoid war in Iraq. But if Saddam Hussein does not disarm peacefully, he will be disarmed by force,"

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/12/19/192703.shtml

"Three top Bush administration officials said today they would welcome exile for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, and one, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, signaled the United States might allow Hussein to escape war crimes prosecution if he voluntarily steps down."

http://www.why-war.com/news/2003/01/20/official.html

Saddam can stay if he disarms, Powell says

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QucrqurzAysJ:www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/21/1034561443683.html+Saddam+can+stay+if+he+disarms+&hl=en

Rice and Powell Say that a Disarmed Saddam Could Stay in Power

http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/2159.html

Gee...Saddam Hussein WAS DISARMED and had been since 1991. It was the US government that LIED THEIR ARSES OFF.

AMERICA INVADED and OCCUPIED a SOVEREIGN NATION THAT HAD DONE NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO ANYONE FOR MORE THAN A DECADE. AMERICA is the EVIL-DOER in this. NO EXCUSES.

[LynnTheDem]

59. Saddam's graves? FIVE THOUSAND. BUSH'S graves? 100,000.

GAWD I detest rightwingnut bush apologists.

[zulchzulu]

7. Flatten Fallujah and make it a Jumbo Walmart!

Halliburton needs supplies, god damn it!

[rodeodance]

8. "My first question is: Where to begin?"

start by counting and burying the dead.

[zulchzulu]

11. I bet Walmart has stuff you can use to help count dead people

Check out the Genocide Department. That have all the stuff you'll need.

[corporatemedia]

55. ...and the prices are sooooo good!!!

[leftchick]

17. These poor folks never had a chance....

with the pro-fetus pres* in charge... :(

[HFishbine]

34. I wonder if this is evidence of our new "marine" friend's humanity? n/t

[JewishAmerican]

19. Second Vietnam!

The fact is this war will turn into another Vietnam and unfortunately many more will die until we finally realize that Iraq is a failure!

[newyawker99]

67. Hi JewishAmerican!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

26. sick

I'm getting really disgusted reading all the rationales for war and killing... :grr:

[restorefreedom]

29. gotta make the way clear for those Halliburton contractors...

I mean the dead aren't going anywhere, right?

Priorities, people....



"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell.

[cornermouse]

44. Well... Time to get those bulldozers busy.

We have a lot of mass graves to dig and bodies to hide. That IS how this is done, isn't it?

[proudbluestater]

52. Once again I am ashamed to be an American in THIS America