US MARINE EXECUTES SHOT MAN

[Gman]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14869795&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=us-marine-executes-shot-man-name_page.html

A US marine has sparked world-wide revulsion after being seen shooting an injured and helpless Iraqi.

The sickening scene was broadcast by Channel 4 News after a fire-fight in the rebel stronghold of Fallujah.

The trigger-happy soldier had been asked to get nearer to the injured man.

But instead of trying to capture him, the marine is seen leaning over a wall and cold-bloodedly shooting him.

-------------------

More US war crimes.

[flowomo]

1. hold off on judging this case until you know all the facts....

the Mirror is not exactly an unbiased source. We have no way of knowing what the Marine saw when he leaned over that wall. Wait for more information.

[frankly_fedup2]

36. I just wonder how many American Soldiers that injured Iraqi . . .

had killed that day? Wonder if he had killed any Americans?

See, we cannot really decide either way without all of the facts. Plus, depending on the news source, what will the facts supposedly be? No matter what that Iraqi man did (if he has killed others), every news source will come out against our soldiers.

But I will not say ANYTHING against those young men and women over there. We hear at least 100 are getting wounded everyday. How many are totaling losing their minds due to the long-term, continued stress? We'll never hear about them.

After all of the war crimes the Islamic terrorists have done. And the new appointee Mr. Bush wants for Attorney General wrote a memo that since these are enemy combatants and not another army, Geneva Convention Laws do not apply. Morally, this soldier MAY have done wrong. But, again, we'll never know the real truth. Only this Marine and those with him know it.

Of course, they are going to make our soldiers look like murderers, but, if I had been over there in the kind of mess Bush has put them in, I'd probably want to kill any and everybody myself. I cannot imagine what our soldiers have gone through, are going through, will go through. You have to remember, they were sent there. They do not want to be there. They are just keeping their word of honor to our government to defend and fight for this country. Which one of those falls in this conflict, I wouldn't know.

Just as the Iraqi people did not ask for us to come in there and totally destroy their country. They never had terrorist attacks. Over 100,000 or more innocent people dead??? That makes any military involved in such attacks sound like a bunch of slaughter hounds.

So really, our military as well as the Iraqi people are stuck in the middle of a stupid man sending our military there to get those WMD. But oh well, we could not find any of them but we got Saddam out. Yeah, Saw a few hundred people out when they pulled down the statue. But that is it. The rest I have seen are like what you just posted. The beheading, a 3-month-old child with her left leg amputated, a 13-day-old child laying dead.

That is one of those horrible pictures of war that may not tell the whole story, and probably never will. I'm sure there will be a HUGE outcry about this; however, if there is, I only have one question . . .

What about all the kidnapped people being beheaded on video? I hear in Florida some conservatives made DVD's of the tapes and were selling them for profit. These beheadings were not a quick chop in the back of the head mind you, but the terrorists making them lean forward, pull their head back by the hair, and just start sawing, while the person they are killing is making such horrible sounds as they are being murdered, until the head is separate from the body. These people suffered because they wanted to go to Iraq and make some extra money OR have been there for years and were just grabbed.

My point here is if there is an outcry regarding this, why then wasn't there an outcry from other countries regarding these poor people? You can't always read between the lines of propaganda.

Sorry so winded. Very passionate subject for me.

[jdj]

51. is this another "mercy killing", or just film of the one reported last

week?

[calmblueocean]

62. Don't apologize. Well said.

I think the overwhelming majority of our soldiers over there are good people doing the best job humanly possible in the crazy situation they've been sent into. In this day and age, though, the bad apples or even those who make mistakes due to stress and fear are blown up to seem like they represent every single soldier.

[frankly_fedup2]

113. Thanks calmblueocean. By the way, I love your screen name. Also,

I agree with what you said 100%. That is what I meant to say, however, I just cannot get it out in just a sentence or two.

I'm going to have to change my screen name to Hot-Air balloon . . . because I'm so full of it!!!

[pokercat999]

126. They don't represent just "every single soldier"

they represent YOU and ME and every single American!

THINK ABOUT IT !

Understand this, the election puts us all in the same boat with Bush in the eyes of the world (correctly I believe}.....we have lost any moral standing we had anywhere in the WORLD. Anti-Americans anywhere can now claim the moral high ground and justify their cause with some if not complete righteousness.

Do you think all Germans were behind Hitler? But they were all responsible and suffered because of it! It's obvious voting doesn't work any longer, in my opinion it's time to do something, leave or fight, I'm still trying to figure it out but I know I must come to a decision soon or I will be lost like those silent but dissenting Germans of 1933. I know this, those who stand by and do nothing are as guilty as those that commit the acts, my problem is not where I stand but how I respond. As a former soldier I understand how these war crimes happen and I believe that we should punish those responsible not the enlisted man on the front-line but the fucking politicians that sent them there and there are plenty of "democrats" (now I gotta spit) in that crowd.

[mike_c]

71. no further "facts" needed-- executing wounded is a war crime....

Sorry, you can't spin this and neither can the military. I don't care if he killed dozens earlier in the day-- and there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe that he was anything other than a gravely wounded civilian, there were hundreds of those lying in the streets of Fallujah-- executing the wounded is a war crime. I hope this Marine spends the REST OF HIS MISERABLE LIFE behind bars, preferably in an Iraqi prison.

[Chomskyite]

81. What if the wounded has a gun in his hand and is raising it?

Is it still a war crime to you?

[mike_c]

83. that was unlikely-- did you watch the video...?

The marine who executed him did not seem overly concerned for his own safety.

But to answer your question more directly, no, it is not a war crime to respond to an immediate threat-- but again, the video gives no indication that the "man down between the houses" is any further threat. However, those Marines' presence in Fallujah-- their presence in Iraq-- is itself a war crime.

on edit: your question implies that the crime is only in my eyes. Deliberate killing of wounded combatants and civilians is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

127. If the man is still armed and hasn't surrendered

He's still an active combatant. Why should the soldier risk his life to rescue him?

[jobycom]

77. Why would that matter?

I'm sure that Iraqi had seen a lot more American soldiers kill his neighbors than he killed Americans. So by your logic, would he have been justified in killing those American soldiers,because of what he witnessed?

That doesn't matter, either. There are clear laws against killing a wounded soldier who is not fighting. Even if there weren't, we should hold our own to a higher standard. We were the invaders. We were the unwelcome guests. We kill and kill and kill, and then when the Iraqis understandably get tired of us killing them, they fight back with all of their pent up rage and bitterness, and we use that as an excuse to kill even more.

Unless they prove this wounded Iraqi was about to shoot the soldier, I don't have any sympathies for him, or rather, what symapthies I do have for him have been so blunted by the horrible atrocities we've committed there that my sympathy is overwhelmed by the sympathy I feel to the victims of this invasion.

As for the kidnapped beheadings, what so we expect? We start an unfair war and then are surprised when the other side fights back with whatever they can find?

This nation is sinking faster than Germany did into the horror of patriotic blindness.

[frankly_fedup2]

108. **WARNING*** very long, opinionated post, read at your own risk.

I'm sure that Iraqi has seen more death in his lifetime before we . . . even showed up there.

As for my "logic" I base it on the fact that I do not think our young men and women would ever have seen the types of murders, public beheadings, and torture that this man as well as other Iraqi citizens have lived with under their dictator, Saddam, and I know for myself, I don't think I could handle seeing constant death and destruction of my fellow soldiers OR innocent people that just happen to get in the way. How does one handle the thought that a bomb they shot or gunfire from their gun killed a 13-day-old baby girl? I just cannot imagine what they are going through with the constant threats, not knowing who is friend or enemy, and not being able to come home when they have been told they could, their tours in combat lasting twice as long as they should. I know I would lose it.

I think the worst stress our troops have been through before this war was trying to get enough money for college, or a good-paying job, or trying to raise their children the best they can, and taking care of their families. Our young soldiers now have to deal with all of this emotionally as well as physically.

This major battle is happening in Fallujah, and according to what we are being told, the ones they are fighting are the insurgents (terrorists or whichever you prefer), and even though this man was wounded, if our doctors treated him, they would be healing a man that as soon as he was well, he would try to kill Americans again.

Also, they have killed, killed, and killed each other over time due to differences in how strong one tribe believes in a certain part of the Koran more so than the majority tribe, or who owns what part of what land, or what Cleric knows more about the teachings, etc. Killing is all they know. It doesn't make it right for us to go in there and slaughter anyone. However, our soldiers are following orders, and that is all they can do. That have to do what they are told to do. Plus, it's not the Iraq's who are fighting us . . . it's the terrorists who have moved in there with the Iraqis. Now I am sure the terrorists have had some Iraqis join them in getting the Americans out (which will never happen. This is a no end war). Actually, the first trained Iraqi military that our soldiers trained went into Fallujah with our troops to get the terrorists out of there. They want them gone as much as we do. Well, the majority does. They just want to be able to support their families like us, not live in fear everyday, and have control of their country. We would do the same thing.

Also, these extremists have no regard for human life. . . not even for their own people. If they did, they would not blow themselves up and/or kill innocent Iraqis. The next life is what they care about, well, the extremists anyway. They hate progress. They want it to be just like it was during the time of Muhammad, which, by the way, was when the Christian Crusades were happening. The Christians and the Jews were slaughtering the Muslims. That is why the Koran has some really militant stuff in it per Muhammad per Gabriel per Allah per Islam. That is why since 600 a.d. they have been taught nothing but to hate the Christians ("Crusaders") and the Jews ("Zionists").

Also, per the new hopeful Attorney General that Bush wants, stated in his little memo that we do not have to follow the Geneva Convention because they are enemy combatants . . . not another military, because they have claim to no country in particular NOR any army. That will mean more fun at Gitmo for the ones still stuck there. Also, these battles really started when they shot, burned, tore apart (I can show you pictures) the bodies of those four contractors then hung body parts from a bridge. Their type of warfare obviously has not changed over the centuries.

I know, I know, I agree that we follow the Geneva Convention and I think we should follow the "Rules of Engagement" (oxymoronic statement if I ever heard one), but this President and his new candidate for Attorney General believe torture is okay. I think the next four years are going to be a nightmare we won't be able to wake up from. This area of the World is cruel to their own people let alone outsiders and invaders (in their mind). Our troops want to come home. I remember when they first started the bombings in Baghdad while the troops came across Iraq with the embedded reporters. All the troops kept saying was that they were told that as soon as they got to Baghdad and took control, the sooner they would be home. More lies from their President.

As far as the beheadings, nothing can justify what was done to these people and I disagree with you there. I do not believe it was the Iraqi people doing the murders themselves. I believe it was individual terror groups with their own agendas that had militant causes such as the release of prisoners, getting troops out of Iraq (just to name a few that I can remember). They were using the situation in Iraq to kidnap and murder people. They still are to this day.

Now I do believe that the four contractors shot and killed and burned and then hung up on the bridge was the Iraqi people. They don't know who is on their side. Why would they think we were since we went in and have caused so much of the destruction of their country. Then the terrorists come in and they don't care if they kill Iraqis or Americans. They just want to kill and get on the news at night with their agendas.

We went into a country that did not even have a military to fight against us. They had the Imperial Guard or whatever, but since our soldiers were sent into Iraq, there has been nothing but constant
chaos that is STILL going on. The looting was the beginning of the loss of control

Where Bush thinks he is going to bring "our" Democracy to the Middle East, is amazing to me. I'm surprised he hasn't made the statement Ann Coulter made about we should take over all their countries and convert them to Christianity. Yeah, that's going to happen.

These people have fought each other (civil wars) since the beginning of their civilizations. They still have chiefs who lead tribes, especially in Afghanistan. Their teachings are against progress. That is why they supposedly hate the west so much, especially the past century with the manufacturing revolution that went on in this country.

Nothing that is said or that was done can justify any of the madness over there or over here. However, we do know who to blame, or if we should blame anyone. But our military is made up of young men and women following orders. I cannot pass judgment on them. I do not know what is going on over there. It depends on what paper or what country you get your news from. They are over there in this mess, not me. The least I can do is support them.

Sorry so long again. This is almost an article like an oped piece.

[othermeans]

110. I thought that the "I was just following orders" thing went out with

Nuremberg.

[frankly_fedup2]

114. That is no comparison. Those men were leaders themselves,

of the Nazi Party themselves. They made the decisions for others and gave the orders.

I'm talking about your regular grunts that are doing the real fighting, Pfc, Sargents, etc.

Surely you understand the difference?

[Liberaltarian]

98. we are in Iraq ILLEGALLY...it doesn't matter who sent them there-

from the point of view of the civilized world- our troops are getting what they deserve.
I'm not saying I support that viewpoint, merely pointing out that it exists.

however- i CANNOT and WILL NOT "support" our occupation troops on the ground in Iraq- were the german citizens right to "support" their troops during the blitzkriegs and throughout ww2?

[frankly_fedup2]

115. You are absolutely right; however, I do not think that . . .

the Germans had any other option. If they spoke out against it, they went into the death camps with the Jews.

OMG This must be the shortest post I have ever had on here...

[Liberaltarian]

132. and if herr ashcroft had his way...

that's what would be happening to those of us who choose to speak out against the iraqi debacle.

[IronLionZion]

101. well said

I respect our soldiers even though I detest the money grubbing shitstain that sent them there.

But I sure as hell don't respect people sitting in front of a computer and getting all righteous about a poorly edited digital video that any 10 year old kid could have cut together. especially when that video doesn't show a god damn thing.

[frankly_fedup2]

116. FINALLY! To the point and exactly right. Why do we . . .

do this to ourselves? I mean we over analyze everything. Yes, I know I'm over analyzing it more than most anyone here. Almost to the point of ad nauseum (there, I said it for you all so we can agree to disagree).

[KingChicken]

128. Kill happy Americans

The people in the military are doing an honorable thing on the surface, but so many of them seem to take advantage of the chaos to get off. Back to shooting animals for target practice, or maybe just killing civilians at random like Vietnam. I remember hearing some pretty gory stories about Gulf War 1 from my brother. You ask half the soldiers what the Geneva conventions are, and they don't have a clue what your talking about.

[gmoney]

2. Full Metal Jacket anyone?

wow... is this substantiated?

[UpInArms]

109. link to

video (at approx 1:40) http://207.44.245.159/video1043.htm

While watching Lateline on Australian ABC television there was a report from Fallujah. In the story they showed a marine saying, "I've just injured one, he's between the two buildings". At that moment another marine walks over to the gap between the two houses, he then climbs on a forty four gallon drum aims his gun at the injured Iraqi and fires one shot.

The marine then climbs back down saying, "He's done".

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Someone will end up with his ass in a sling.

That said, this is nothing new. SpecOps guys are known to do this a lot.

[cjm2222]

4. Need a more reliable source

The Mirror is a tabloid--I don't think I'd trust them as a news source. It would be like using the Star as a news source.

I did see a video of a soldier shooting an Iraqi who was shooting at them and then said "he's gone". I don't know if it is the same.

[maddezmom]

6. where did you see the video, maybe it's available online?

[Minstrel Boy]

9. Here's the video:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1043.htm

[pk_du]

22. Wow!

[mobuto]

23. Um

The video does not show the US executing a wounded POW. It shows a soldier shooting around the corner at what we're told is a wounded enemy. That's very different.

Its completely possible that the insurgent posed a threat; just look at our own heroes. Former Senator Bob Kerrey managed to succesfully direct a SEAL force in combat after his leg was blown off. There's no evidence that the insurgent here had surrendered or was trying to surrender.

Knee-jerk attacks on the US military do not help the cause of the Democratic Party, nor do they reflect well on this website or on the respective posters.

[flowomo]

24. agree completely.... this video proves nothing....

we never seen the insurgent; we don't know whether the Marine hit anyone with his shot.... these quick judgements about the soldier's behavior are completely unjustified.

[RyomaSakamoto]

64. it sure looks like cold blooded murder of a wounded enemy solider

if it had been one of ours i'm sure you'd be outraged so don't be surprised if the world and many americans are as well if this turns out to be the case.

though this is certainly minuscule compared to the other war crimes being committed on a grand scale in falluja, like denying aid to civilians, targeting hospitals and aid stations, indiscriminate killing, cutting off food and water to a whole city.

the imperial japanese argued they were fighting illegal combatants when they practice their brutal occupation of nanking and had there defenders as well... not surprised to see it here as well.

[frankly_fedup2]

121. I'm outraged any time an American Soldier gets killed . . .

no matter how it happened.

That guy could have been a sniper and have wounded/killed our soldiers. Again, no one knows the whole story (including me), and from what that soldier did in the video, I do not see what he did wrong. Where they suppose to help the man, let our doctors nurse him back to health so they could release him to come back and kill more Americans (if this was some of the truth that is).

Also, the soldier that killed him did not seem too thrilled with what he had done like some had said.

We can be outraged all we want, but no one cares what we think, especially in this administration.

Great debate tonight, horrible topic though. However, goodnight everyone it is 3:45 a.m. and I have to be up early.

Maybe Washington Journal will have something on about it in the morning.

[getoffmytrain]

67. ..

"Knee-jerk attacks on the US military do not help the cause of the Democratic Party, nor do they reflect well on this website or on the respective posters."

Yes, but... it's become the norm here. Ever since the end of the election, a lot of anger around here has been very knee-jerk, and directed right at the military.

[barb162]

93. you have that straight, good analysis; I was thinking as I write this

that now I understand why the military people often vote pug. If I were in the military in Iraq right now and was on this board reading attack after attack on my fellow soldiers, I would not vote Democratic ever again. If all we do is attakc our soldiers, we are sendinfg a real message to military people; word gets around. I bet you'd never see these attakcs on a pug board of the US military.

The fact is I have never been in the military and have no idea what it is like to be under fire and in a super-stressed situation of literally fearing for your life day after day and watching others getting killed day after day. You know that old line: until you are walking in their shoes....

[maddezmom]

25. the story seems accurate

thanks for the link...I think :(

[flowomo]

accurate? what about this tasty bit of editorializing:

"A US marine has sparked world-wide revulsion...."


funny, I haven't heard much "worldwide revulsion" -- and I saw the video three days ago -- look at the date on it -- 11/11/04. What "worldwide revulsion"? This paper is conducting a campaign against the U.S. presence in Iraq. That's fair enough. But to distort an incident involving a single marine under ridiculously stressful conditions is low.

[maddezmom]

40. actually, I've seen an edited version all weekend

on the cable networks. You have your opinion and I have mine, please do not assume I am one against the troops in Iraq.

[flowomo]

43. I make no assumptions on that point....

but to say the story is "accurate" is to say that its claims are true. And I am only asking whether you aware of any "worldwide revulsion" over this incident. That's an awfully "Drudgelike" statement to put into the lead line of a story. And you'll notice that there is no evidence offered to support it.

[maddezmom]

44. not yet, but then again most people saw the same edited version

that's been playing all weekend.

[frankly_fedup2]

65. I'm sorry, but the beheadings never sparked world-wide . . .

revulsion. In case anyone wants to watch them, they are all at this link. It's Savage's site (sorry, cannot stand the man, but wanted to email him one time, and saw the murders). Our soldiers were defending themselves. I cannot believe the way they are trying to twist it.

****WARNING**** VERY GRAPHIC MURDERS Yes, murders, as these people were not even in the military.

<http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html>

[The Sad Little Pony]

68. Egos...

The Mirror is anticipating the "worldwide revulsion", and is imagining themselves creating it.
Innuendo and half-truths.

[rabbit2484]

34. Why can I never get to informationclearinghouse?

Every time that someone puts the link it says it can't be found.

:shrug:

[flowomo]

38. have you tried going to its home?

this link is to the video, which is a subpage and requires a system able to play the video. Perhaps your browser/system is not set up to play it? Try this link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

[rabbit2484]

46. Thanks Flow

[flowomo]

47. could you get the homepage? or have the same problem?

[cjm2222]

15. This was the one sent to me

I hope the link works.

http://news.yahoo.com/p/v?u=/ap_av/20041111/av_ap_wl/466b61a7bf5a62d27dbfff99d7adb434&cid=452&f=53746348

[0007]

16. The real tabloids are CNN FAUXor MSNBC

[IndianaGreen]

17. In Britain the name "tabloid" refers to format not to content

Or would you rather read it first in The Times of London?

What if I told you The Mirror is liberal and respected, while The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch?

The sickening scene was broadcast by Channel 4 News after a fire-fight in the rebel stronghold of Fallujah.

I guess Amerika can do no wrong, heh?

[Gman]

74. Thanks, Indy

This place looks like FR sometimes.

[MADem]

122. Times is publishing a TABLOID version now

...as it is favored by tube riders, and they plan on switching over to tabloid style exclusively in the next year or so...

Not terribly germane to the topic, but a sidebar tidbit...

[nine23]

20. See my post below.

I've lived in the UK. There are "good" tabloids (the "format" vs. "broadsheet") and there are shit tabs. The Star is a false comparison.

The Mirror ain't bad, and the online version is in no way representative of the hard copy version.

[maddezmom]

5. tell me again, Why do they hate us?

:eyes:

[The Straight Story]

11. A question a rethug friend of mine asked me about dems

We hate, they hate, hate breeds hate. Are we socially superior in that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than they do (ie ME countries)?

They use hate to justify killing others, we use hate to justify killing them, and it goes on and on in a circle. Some say find the reasons they hate us, remove them, they will like us and we can all get along. Perhaps the same is true with red & blue states.

[The Straight Story]

7. Probably be more outrage over this than beheadings

go figure.

[LibertyorDeath]

29. Well yes there will be more outrage over this because

Marines are held to a higher standard than Terrorists and most people I know realize that's a good thing.

[The Straight Story]

45. My point being

That so many I have seen before don't go on about how 'evil' the terrorists themselves are but blame others, side stepping the issue. Someone is beheaded? *'s fault, war's fault, everyone gets blame and maybe a few will say how they think the terrorists are 'evil' or 'bad'.

To me sometimes people should spend a little more time on focusing on the individual and the act than on the side issues which set it up. Plenty of people in iraq are not beheading others, and probably plenty of soldiers are not shooting injured people for fun. * is not the reason some snapped and others didn't, the people doing it are the problem - and those are the ones I focus on myself. It is similar to our own country, some people are serial killers and some are not - what is the difference in the two and how do we spot it, and what do we do about it?

We can say we 'enabled' things like this to occur, but why do some do things while others show restraint? I just don't think painting some things with a broad brush and blaming leaders is really giving us any insight into it. As a further example, even in cultures where wife beatings are considered ok and good, not all partake in this (and if we legalized murder in the US many would not partake of it, though sadly I think many would) - what differentiates the people who abuse power and those who do not, and is it really practical to think that we can stop them by simply appeasing them in some manner?

I know way off topic perhaps, more an interest in human nature and how we see things, how we act, and how we react. We are all different in some ways and levels, and in the similar areas we find labeled groupings. Somewhere in all that some people don't fit and they do things which maybe cannot be fully rationalized on an idealism level. We leave the ME, for example, and there will still be beheadings and what not and the only thing which may change is who it is being done to (at which point it would probablu fall of the radar here as we would be more caring about our people than theirs and the media probably wouldn't cover it anyway).

I dunno, just rambling :)

[mike_c]

82. have you watched the video...?

This guy was not an "evil terrorist." He was an Iraqi defending his city against an illegally invading army. He was murdered in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions.

[puddycat]

50. people forget that Europe was beheading people for centuries!

People get all aghast over "beheadings", as if white Europeans never did such things! England and France beheaded people.

[The Straight Story]

52. They evolved from that

Some places haven't.

[puddycat]

63. oh right! like destroying an entire country is better.

How superior of us to evolve from beheading into invading, bombing, destroying, looting, raping, torturing a nation that posed no threat to us, and then when her men try to fight back against the most powerful military force on Earth, we decry them as savages. I think most Americans should start looking in the mirror and asking how in the world they got so low. I find this pro-militarization rah-rah stuff disgusting.

Like Gandhi said when asked what he thought about Western Civilization "I think it would be a good idea".

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[puddycat]

88. I'm sick of this rah-rah stuff for everything military.

I'm sick of this rah-rah stuff for everything military. We are an extremely over-militarized country, and getting more so.

Just today I read about the Pentagon wanting more billions for high technology "dedicated internet" research so our troops can literally control every living thing on this planet.

We are getting to be a scarier and scarier country. God help us. No democracy can survive this kind of military obsession. Even here at DU you guys run around waving the flag of battle! ITS SICK!!!ITS SICK!!!!!! Our nation illegally invades another country and now you spend your time demonizing them for fighting back! Don't you get it? They don't have the meanest baddest military on Earth--we do--and so they are left with guerilla tactics and psych ops, which includes beheading videos. Vile? well, of course it is! But so is dropping cluster bombs on innocent people! So is killing non-combatants and poisoning water supplies with depleted-uranium tipped missiles!

I wish to hell I were desensitized. I wish I were, and then I wouldn't be so upset about this damned war. I wouldn't cry so much when I read the news. My stomach hurts from the anger I feel when I think the billions we are spending to murder people could be used to give our fellow citizens better healthcare!

God help this nation. God help us.

[__Inanna__]

97. I'm with you puddycat

we're the "superpower" of the world. we have so much going for us and have been truly blessed. we could do so much good in the world, yet we choose to reak havoc on those weaker than us. why? forgive me guys, I love men, but IMHO, it comes down to testosterone(sp?)and ego.

Oh sure, there's the peak oil consideration, but couldn't we drive smaller cars? aren't we smart enough to figure out how to share?

this whole thing disgusts me. * is nothing more than an adolescent who was given one too many toys. along with the rest of 'em that have something to prove. maybe I am a flaming liberal, but we have gone down a path that's going to be hard to return from.

[aneerkoinos]

129. Hear hear! n/t

[Puglover]

130. What you said Puddycat

some folks seem to equate a grip on reality as not supporting the troops. I don't have the words to convey the disgust and shame I feel about my country right now. Someone refered to * as a shitstain above. How apt.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[n2mark]

8. All can say

I don't understand this whole Iraq war, nothing makes sense.

[Tace]

12. You Understand Perfectly

[nine23]

10. My first impression...

For a tab, The Mirror is indeed reliable (John Pilger, etc.) and Channel Four is MOST CERTAINLY reliable.

But I can hold out for more info.

[cjm2222]

21. The Mirror is about as reliable as the NY Post

I read it for the gossip, only. My rule of thumb is any paper that uses the term "love rat" cannot be trusted to give reliable news. The Mirror is very similar to the NY Post.

Don't get me wrong, it is fun to read but isn't very trustworthy.

[Minstrel Boy]

27. The Mirror is much more than that.

John Pilger, for one.

The Mirror broke the story of the sexual torture in Gitmo that predated the Abu Ghraib revelations. When it was posted here, many thought it was CRAZZZZZZZY and inconceivable that the US military would use such tactics.

[rooboy]

35. That's bullshit. The last time the Mirror fucked up the editor was fired.

Which is more than I can say for the NY Post or the Pentagon or the Whitehouse.

When you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.

[nine23]

37. I agree

But there's a lot to be said for a left-leaning, shit-disturbing, UK working class version of the NY Post!!!

And there ARE good features buried in there (Pilger, freelancers, etc.)

"Love rat". Sooo good over coffee and a pack of Dunhills in the morning!

[cjm2222]

41. You have to love the 3am girls

I truly want to know what ginger-haired Chris Evans and his wife Billie are up to. Or that Denise van Outen can't get over Jay Kay. :)

They do have some newsworthy stories, as you noted. But I really tend to take what they say with a tiny grain of salt. But hey, at least they aren't the Telegraph.

[nine23]

48. North London. Crappy bedsit. Broke.

The 3am girls are the only reason to get outta' bed in the morning. (I think we're getting off topic here. Peace.)

[enki23]

42. it doesn't matter whether the mirror is reliable or not

because there's a video.

[The Sad Little Pony]

72. I've seen the videos....

....but I've yet to see anything that illustrates the claims made in the Mirror story.
Is there a better source, or is it all just innuendo?

[mike_c]

94. watch. the. video.

Not much ambiguity there.

[MADem]

28. Wasn't the Mirror

...the paper that published the faked Brit "abuse" photos (taken in the back of a truck that never saw any duty in Iraq) in the wake of Abu Gharib?

I'd have to hear the whole story. I despise war, but I'm not going to excoriate some kid who didn't ask to be sent to Fallujah, who was in a situation not of his making, and not knowing what threat was posed. We need to look way further up the chain of command to find out what the directives were, and what the plan for Fallujah actually was.

[cjm2222]

32. Yes, that's the same paper

They also have weird stories (my favourite being the ghost orgy in a lingerie store).

I'll wait until I see the report on CBC or even Global.

[realcountrymusic]

13. I don't doubt it and I don't care what the "full story" is

What could the explanation be? It's on tape as a brutal cold-blooded execution of an injured man. Straight out violation of the Geneva Conventions to shoot the wounded unless the wounded man was pointing a weapon, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Oh, but our boys don't have to observe the GCs, do they?

This will be Bush's Vietnam in more ways than one. More shit like Abu Ghraib and this and the troops will come home to anything but a hero's welcome.

At one point do we start to question this "don't blame the troops, they are just doing their duty" mantra?

sickening, sickening, sickening

not in my fucking name

rcm

[flowomo]

19. did you see the video? How can you say the wounded man was not

pointing a weapon? The video shows absolutely nothing of the wounded man. And it doesn't even show that the shot fired by the American actually hit anyone. You are seeing what you want to see; not what is there.

[realcountrymusic]

31. yeah, you're right

I have no idea. But it doesn't even matter. I'm sure there are a hundred such war crimes hidden from view for every one that gets captured. That's the nature of war, and we are fighting a particularly dirty and evil one.

I have no doubt that I've actually seen pictures of bleeding and maimed Iraqi children. That's all it takes for me to run fresh out of benefit of the doubt for "our boys."

What makes them sacred? Isn't a society that worships its military fascist? They volunteered, they weren't drafted. They have laws to follow, and they have patently ignored them often enough in this sick war to raise suspicions among the most reasonable people. I am fed up with acting like politial justice must be sought in the names of dead American soldiers and their families. We've killed at 100 times more civilians than we've lost soldiers. That's where I want to look for justice.

I am not rooting against our soldiers. I am rooting against a sickening war. And I want any war criminals among "our boys" to face international justice. So far, the Abu Ghraib folks have gotten community service, and that's been the extent of it.


RCM

[biftonnorton]

14. Probably A Legit Shoot

The wounded man most likely still had his weapon with him and was still a threat.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

26. what evidence is "probably" based on?

is it the idea that this soldier is on your team ?
it's "probably" not likely that these soldiers their are doing stupid things on a widespread
level, is it?-recall Abu Garib, etc.,


Let's hope he had a reason but saying "probably a legit shoot" is an illogical statement.


Killing is not a game and war is not a turkey "shoot".

[MADem]

124. I'm with you on that

The video was clearly "heat of battle." The Marines were trying to isolate and destroy the guy or guys who had been shooting at them. One Marine tossed a grenade into the alley. The guy may have been concussed or bloodied, but we do not know if he was pointing his weapon or able to continue to shoot. And to be honest, if I were in that same situation, I'd do the same thing. You do what you have to do to protect yourself and your unit--that is your loyalty, and it is absolute. It's how you survive in that environment. The Marquis of Queensbury decided not to participate in Fallujah.

That said, I think it is horrific that these poor Marines have been placed into this absurd and hideous situation. But I don't fault them for VIGOROUS prosecution of the mission--it's what HAPPENS during war. When you are going house to house, your priority is not wandering down unknown alleys to take prisoners (and maybe a bullet for your trouble), especially when the goal is to eradicate the insurgents.

And, unless there's video of that alleyway, we have absolutely no way of knowing what that guy, who was shooting at the Marines, was doing at the time the guy atop the 55 Gal oil drum took him out. We just do not know. To suggest that this is somehow a special situation, a "murder" that is somehow different than all of the other deaths that occur on both sides during warfighting, is just not supported by the available information.

The newspaper article is irresponsible, if it is based solely on the information contained in the video, and not supported by additional reportage.

[The Straight Story]

18. We should try to understand the point of view of the Marine

Much like many tried to understand the point of view of the hijackers. Was not his fault, poor policy in the middle east led this marine to hate him and shoot him. Those iraqi's brought in on themselves....

Ok, some heavy sarcasm. But from 9/11 I have heard everything from 'it was a punishment from god on the US for X' to 'We had it coming because we were mean to them' and a whole lot in between. What's good for the goose they say....If we look for excuses for terrorists, we should find excuses for things our people due under duress. Folks keep making excuses for the actions of others, trying to rationalize them and make them understandble. Maybe some people just suck. Others under the same stress have not done similar things, so the root cause idea goes flat - though some would like to use it to justify their actions and gain sympathy to me I am not buying it.

[burrowowl]

85. Yes, the marine is in what

is for him, a life or death situation.

Bu$h and Company are to blame!

[JPace]

30. It's war....I hate war but IT IS WAR!

Our troops are doing what they have to do, what AWOL has
sent them to do.

I hate AWOL!
I support our troops!

[high density]

39. Thank you

Some people here sitting in front of computer screens seem to think they're able to make a better judgment of this situation than the soldier who is in the middle of the fighting and getting shot at.

[puddycat]

55. but do you feel the need to support everything they do?

did you support the actions at Abu Ghraib?

[Norwood]

56. Well said

I feel the same way.

We cant look at our troops the way we look at our "commander in chief".

They didnt ask to be there. Now they gotta do what they gotta do. As far as the video goes, I cant judge the soldier. The only person who really knows the truth about it is the soldier himself.


Support the troops, hate Duhbya.

[calmblueocean]

69. Amen.

The overwhelming majority of soldiers over there are good people doing the best they can in one of the most chaotic and maddening situations imaginable. I blame Bush, first and always.

[nine23]

70. With sadness, I agree.

As much as I hate this entire, sorid fucking mess, and as much as I'm a peace-loving life-long lefty, I agree. We weren't there, and this is WAR.

And Abu Ghraib is a false analogy. In that scenario, US soldiers had all the time in the world to put down their catered Burger King Big Whoppers, go raise some serious shit with helpless captives for the fun of it, and take pictures for posterity. THEY deserve what's coming to them via military law.

Reality check: The Arab world will see this. 'Nuff said.

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

33. Probably a mercy killing

From the sound of it, there is limited medical attention in the area, so out in the field it seems the best option is to execute the man to put him out of his misery. Ironically, Jeb Bush is trying to make that illegal in America, where democracy is alive.

[tkmorris]

49. You shoot animals to put them out of their misery

You NEVER shoot a human for the same reason. Especially not if you invaded their country and expect to be treated like the "good guys".

Having said that, there is not enough information here to make a call either way. I know what it looks like to me, but it's all pretty circumstancial and reading between some increasingly murky lines.

[mike_c]

95. regardless of your opinions on the matter, it is a WAR CRIME...

...to execute a wounded person, whether a combatant or not. The video makes it clear that no attempt was made to provide aid. The soldier who murdered him seemed damned satisfied with himself.

Google "Geneva Conventions."

[Emillereid]

53. Here's some film of it:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1043.htm

[IronLionZion]

54. Don't judge the marine, judge Bush

you don't know what went down. That tape shows jack shit.

But everyone knows none of this would have happened without Bush and Cheney's insatiable greed.

if money is your god, vote Republican and say it's because you love god.

[frankly_fedup2]

57. The slaughter House.

Hostage/www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-501859.php]

(snip) November 11, 2004

Intelligence officers comb through ‘slaughterhouse’

Associated Press


NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq — U.S. and Iraqi troops battling their way through Fallujah stumbled on a horrific find — a small, windowless room with blood-soaked mattresses and straw mats on the floor that U.S. commanders are calling a “hostage slaughterhouse. (snip)

For some reason I felt the need to post this story here. I guess to try to justify what the soldier did, but I don't know if he did it out of just plain cruelty or if the man deserved to die because he had killed other soldiers. However, we know what happened to the people who visited these places. Also, none of them were military personnel.

[Emillereid]

58. Here's another 'film at 11' bit that illustrates what we've

turned these young men into.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm

[Silverhair]

73. You do NOT understand combat.

There is absolutely no requirement to risk your own life to rescue a wounded enemy. And the Geneva Convention DOES allow you to continue firing at wounded enemy as long as the combat is still happening and the area is unsecured. In combat, a wounded enemy is STILL an enemy and a target. That is part of the reality of war.

[Emillereid]

86. Then the reality of war sucks ... and to avoid doing such

reprehensible, immoral things we should bring these young men home and not engage in this madness. War is no more inevitable than slavery -- it is a choice we make. And ultimately it will probably bring about the end of the human experiment.

[mike_c]

96. this is an illegal war of aggression, not some noble damned...

...defense of anything good. The "reality of war" that you speak of makes us no better than the Nazis in eastern Europe, or the Russians in Grozny. Amerika chose this course.

[The Sad Little Pony]

78. That is the most...

edited, cut up piece of video I've ever seen.
Thank goodness it supports my already held opinions about the savagery of the Marines.
Otherwise, it would so obviously be false.

[IronLionZion]

99. yeah really, there's lots of prejudice on this board

some DUers are just so....Republican!

[IronLionZion]

100. you do not understand video editing

you realize it's been cut together by an amateur right? CNN tends to be a little more professional than that

[countmyvote4real]

59. God forgive them. They know not what they do/for/to our country.

War crimes trials should start at the top of this rotting fish aka USA.

[NCN007]

60. Don't judge

The tape doesnt show anything, the just because you are wounded doesnt nessesarily mean you are surrendering, and we have no idea if that insurgent had a weapon leveled at the marine when he fired. And all the mirror has is that one of their intrepid journalists happen to have been watching channel 4 when this was broadcast, its has nothing original.

[kostya]

61. This is actually pretty common.

Sadly, prisoners are seen as a burden. Soldiers are not in a humanitarian vocation folks, this happens all the time. Oh, the karma they are bringing down on themselves, though.

[daleo]

80. The same reasoning may have applied to the blonde woman

Whose body was supposed to have been found today. Someone on the Iraqi side may have considered her a burden, too much trouble to keep alive while trying to fend off the U.S. attack

[daleo]

75. This war gets uglier every day

Supposedly, a small majority of the U.S. population is ok with it, though.

[BadGimp]

79. We Suck

War Crimes.

The wholesale slaughter of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Bombing residential neighborhoods.

I want to whole heartedly support the troops but it is getting harder and harder by the day.

what next..

[alexisfree]

91. it is hard to believe

the sympsons are eating more

[Chomskyite]

84. The war crime was committed by Bush and company

We just can't know from this video what the kid was shooting at, whether the person was armed or not. It sure looks like the person shot still posed a threat, judging by the tension felt by the other marines ducking down nearby.

[Clarkie1]

87. That soldier did the right thing

The were in urban combat. No one had surrendered.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[RyomaSakamoto]

105. Defend Murder

the context of the tape tells me and many others there wasn't a threat, he casually walked up and shot a wounded combatant without batting an eye.

HOW DARE YOU defend such crimes?

what if that was done to one our our troops i'm sure you would be upset then, eh?

we are NOT above the law.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[alexisfree]

92. sick

[Clarkie1]

103. Yes, it is sick

War is sick.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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[mrbassman03]

117. Well, yeah, why just cripple someone when you can finish the job?

jeez... crazy fuckin' marines.

[Emillereid]

90. Any World War II vets here --

was it standard practice to shoot wounded enemy soldiers and cheer about it? I have trouble squaring this practice with my father's generation, but then again, I've probably been too influenced by Hollywood's version of that war.

The kids in these videos have played too many video games -- and have become completely desensitized and inhumane. They are probably going to have some major adjustment disorders when they come home.

[frankly_fedup2]

111. Now how can you blame video games, TV, or movies for the

violence in Iraq.

violence. Some of the most violent countries in the world do not even have video games, TVs, radios, movies.

Our kids are responding to what they have seen in battle as well as been trained to do . . . Kill or be killed. You saw what the terrorists are capable of doing to innocent people, over 3000 of them. Of course, I still feel we are carrying this war on the wrong people and the wrong country. But what elected official really listens to what we think, say, or our opinions?

My dad was a WWII veteran and he told me that after they bombed Japan, they had the same problems as far as knowing who the enemy was and who their allies were. Same thing in Korea and Vietnam.

Also, when they shot Kamikaze planes out of the air causing them to crash away from their intended victims, they cheered when that plane came down in flames, and sometimes burning the pilot alive. Also, on D-Day, after climbing over all the dead bodies, there were no prisoners taken. Not for a while This happens in every war. We just hear more about it now because of the 24-7 news.

There has been brutality, cruelty, torture, murder, rape etc., on this Earth since the beginning of time. I'm sure I do not need to tell you that. The Video games, TV, Movies, music didn't invent the evils in this world nor the violence nor incite the violence.

Some of the more violent tribes in Africa have never even seen a TV. Same as in Brazil, Columbia, etc. Some of them can be more vicious to each other than any idea our kids might get from video games.

I know that in the past (Columbine i.e.), those boys seemed to be obsessed with certain games and movies similar to the way they killed those other children. I just feel that these kids had some significantly major psychological problems before they committed their crimes. There are some exception to the rules, but I am really surprised at how well this generation has served it's Country considering this being an unethical war on the Iraqi people.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

102. there's some sick pups posting on this thread!!

?? support and make excuses for executions carried out at the discretion of some invading troops?/
get real-

Might I suggest that these types of posts are "obvious" and you posters might consider going back to where they might relate to those good 'ol facist values
and those "support our war" * "cheerleader" posts....

Troops home now.
No reason to stay.

[othermeans]

112. What if it was a wounded Marine who was shot by an Iraqi?

I don't think those fools would be making the same "Its War" argument.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[grace0418]

107. I don't know what happened and don't pretend to know

but what I truly don't understand is how we (as a civilization) can train young men to become killing machines, teaching them to shoot someone simply because we *say* that they're the enemy, and then expect them to turn off that ingrained impulse like it's no big deal.

[requiem99]

118. IT SHOWS NOTHING. DO NOT JUDGE WITHOUT THE FACTS.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

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[aneerkoinos]

131. Supporting the troops?

What is that really support of?

It is the corporate media slogan for support of military-industrial complex, the militarization and desensitizing the US public consciense. Support of the mindless, obscene military spending that is bankrupting your economy, when the situation has got so bad that both parties can only compete on which one is going to throw away more your nation's resources. Tacit if not open support for American version of Fascism.

Sure the troops are victims, but who fucking isn't? Everybody who does not does not use his/hers freedom of choice and creativity is a victim of his/hers mechanistic thinking.

Falling for the "support the troops" romantic militarism and naive denial in defence of some kind of sick "innosence" means that you are still just another Bush's bitch that has not freed his/her mind, sorry to say.

[Moderator]

133. Locking

This thread has degenerated into a bunch of personal attacks that are totally unnecessary. If you can't post without calling another DUer a jerk or an asshole or a war criminal, then you need to take a break.

Too many otherwise good posts are ruined by needless attacks on other DUers. Although this is an emotional topic, posters still need to follow the rules. To do otherwise ruins any chance of thoughtful discussion.