'Body parts everywhere' in Fallujah

[leftchick]

http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/389225.htm

<snip>

"Body parts everywhere!" cries a US soldier as a shell crashes onto a group of suspected rebels in the Iraqi city of Fallujah, where a punishing torrent of firepower thundered down on Tuesday.

More than 500 rounds of 155-millimetre Howitzer cannon shells have been fired on the besieged Sunni stronghold west of Baghdad since a US-Iraqi offensive to take control of the city started on Monday evening, said Sergeant Michael Hamby.

<snip>

Unconfirmed estimates suggest that as many as 100 000 residents of Fallujah could still be inside the city.

In the northwestern Jolan neighbourhood alone - branded the hotbed of insurgent activity in Fallujah - US forces unleashed more than 20 air strikes and some 60 artillery rounds on Monday, said Major Todd Desgrosseilliers.

[katmondoo]

1. Let the carnage begin. All hail the Dictator BUSH

[Lerkfish]

3. no, no., no...its LORD Bush Christ, our saviour....get it right!

jeez...back to the fundie reeducation camp for you.

[snippy]

8. I thought it was the LordGodBush. Am I going to Gitmo? n/t

[Lerkfish]

17. yes, pack your bag...er..wait, we provide our own anal prods. nt.

[Kolesar]

9. "O Lord, take this holy handgrenade of Antioch"

I found a great site, with the whole script and stills:
http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/holy-grail/scene-21.html

[Goathead]

51. One... Two... FIVE!

Three sir, three.

[natrat]

79. good page:)

And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--

[leftchick]

12. No... It is "All Hail Mary"...

and how sick is that??




A rosary hangs off the barrel of a machinegun mounted on a Bradley belonging to the 1st Cavalry Regiment 5th Battalion positioned on the outskirts of Fallujah, 50 kms west of Baghdad 07 November 2004.(Xinhua/AFP Photo By Patrick Baz)

[DBoon]

26. Been done before...

Franco was raised a devote Catholic, but saw no contradiction in wanton murder, cruelty and terrorism when he fought for the Spanish Army in Morocco, where he was a commander in Spain's Foreign Legion:

"Despite fierce discipline in other matters, no limits were put by Millin Astray or by Franco on the atrocities which were committed against the Moorish villages which they attacked. The decapitation of prisoners and the exhibition of severed heads as trophies was not uncommon. The Duquesa de la Victoria, a philanthropist who organized a team of volunteer nurses, would receive in 1922 a tribute from the Legion. She was given a basket of roses in the center of which lay two severed Moorish heads.<84> When the Dictator General Prime de Rivera visited Morocco in 1926, he was appalled to find one battalion of the Legion awaiting inspection with heads stuck on their bayonets.<85> Indeed, Franco and other officers came to feel a fierce pride in the brutal violence of their men, reveling in their grim reputation. That notoriety was itself a useful weapon in keeping down the colonial population and its efficacy taught Franco much about the exemplary function of terror. In his Diario de zona bandera, he adopted a tone of benevolent paternalism about the savage antics of his men. In Africa, as later in the Peninsula during the Civil War, he condoned the killing and
mutilation of prisoners."{29}

http://www.iiipublishing.com/franco.htm

Wasn't Franco one of the early heroes of National Review? A direct tie to American right wing politics then.

[Politicub]

64. That is truly psycho

But also a chilling portrait of red America circa 2004.

[RedCon1]

117. I know that unit all too well

The 1-5 Cav. They're known as the Black Knights. They have a pretty bad reputation and a wicked history to match it. In truth though, it's always a few bad apples spoiling the whole damn bunch. Most of those guys are just doing their job I suspect. I know "just doing their job" probably won't make you feel any better about them though.

[RyomaSakamoto]

2. Our Nanking

[The Sad Little Pony]

You should read about Nanking.

Read "The Rape of Nanking".

There is no comparison.
If there was, then I would suggest that we immediately rise up and fight.
Message board activism just wouldn't cut it, in the face of a "Nanking".

[RyomaSakamoto]

25. ***GRAPHIC***

i have... they had 'ILLEGAL COMBATANTS' as well and they used to go by HAIRCUTS, POSTURE, SUNTANS to pick out their 'insurgents.

they had about the same number of civilians in the city when they 'liberated' it.

[The Sad Little Pony]

28. Perhaps...

...but that does not make it the same thing, now does it?

I realize that you wish to paint Fallujah as the moral equivalent of Nanking.
But anyone who has read the "Rape of Nanking", knows that the horrors of that siege are beyond anything that is happening in Fallujah. Babies being thrown in the air and caught on the tips of bayonets, three hundred thousand people, mostly civilians and POWs, were brutally slaughtered. Over twenty thousand cases of rape were reported. Many of the victims were gang raped and then killed. The figure did not include those captives who were sent to army brothels (the so-called "comfort stations").



YES, people are dying in Falluhah, and it is horrible.
But if what was occurring in Fallujah was identical to Nanking, you would have a moral imperative to take up arms and overthrow those who were doing this. You're not though, are you?
To not do this would mean that you are a moral coward....

...or maybe YOU don't really think that Nanking was so bad.

Don't let your rhetoric write checks that your actions won't cash.

[JoFerret]

29. Blah! blah!

The death of one person is outrage enough. Yes there is hyperbole used to express the outrage.

[The Sad Little Pony]

31. The death of one person...

...does not equal the Holocaust, or Nanking, or Rwanda.

Such hyperbole does not express outrage, it conveys an INABILITY to express outrage.

We should strive to be as eloquent as possible, in detailing and documenting THIS horror. It's a responsibility.

[The Stranger]

32. You're minimizing what is an outrage,

in effect, defending what is indefensible.

Where is the color code for massacres, holocaust, mass murder, genocide and mass murder? Has that been created yet?

Maybe if this one doesn't compare to past horrors, we should just all be quiet.

[The Sad Little Pony]

35. Again, hyperbole.

It does not help convey the TRUE horror of what is happening in Fallujah.
Fallujah is its OWN Horror.
You lessen this horror, by attempting to make it Nanking.

You should not be quiet about this.
But comparisons are how we view history.
Claiming equivallency between two events that are clearly NOT equal is NOT an effective way to get one's point across.

I am in NO WAY defending Fallujah, and I resent that implication.
But the victims of Nanking would resent someone trying to say that Nanking was "only" as bad as Fallujah.

We can deconstruct each event down to each individual's death, and then we are left with nothing.
It is intellectual laziness.
It does not help to convey the horror of Fallujah, it merely obscures it.

[RyomaSakamoto]

34. is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.

Joseph Stalin

[The Sad Little Pony]

36. That's a slogan.

One used to explain away genocide.

I prefer to attempt a bit more eloquence.
Don't the victims deserve more than slogans and hyperbole?
Don't they deserve an effort?

[RyomaSakamoto]

37. that fits

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/trifecta.mp3

June 14, 2002
Remarks by the President in Texans for Rick Perry Reception
Hyatt Regency Hotel
Houston, Texas
6:09 P.M. CDT

You know, when I was one time campaigning in Chicago, a reporter said, would you ever have a deficit? And I said, I can't imagine it, but there would be one if we had a war, or a national emergency, or a recession. (Laughter.) Never did I dream we'd get the trifecta. (Laughter.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020614-8.html

psst... pass the word ;->

[The Sad Little Pony]

38. Yes, it is fitting.

But it is also ineffective, and intellectually lazy.

People are bombarded by these slogans every day, and look at where we are.

We pass these slogans back and forth to one another, and it seems satisfying to preach to one another's choir.
But it gets us nowhere.
Propaganda and slogans demonstrate a condescending attitude towards the audience. It shows a lack of respect.

I think that we can express ourselves with an intelligent voice, WITHOUT resorting to such hyperbole and innuendo.

We have art, and we have brilliant writers.
Why stoop to the tool of the oppressor?

[RyomaSakamoto]

40. think

it's PATRIOTIC

[The Sad Little Pony]

41. Yes, thinking IS PATRIOTIC.

If you love what your country was, or could be....


....why would you shut down your brain, and rely on propaganda and hyperbole?

Irony didn't work.
Sarcasm didn't work.
Smug hyperbole won't work either.

The truth is on our side, why resort to the techniques of the liars?

[RyomaSakamoto]

46. we are raping, torturing, murdering men women and children

all in the name of bringing PEACE, PROSPERITY and SECURITY to the region.

all very similar to what the imperial japaense were claiming to do in asia with similar results. GEACPS!

those are the facts.

psst... pass the word ;->

[The Sad Little Pony]

53. Two young women were killed...

...in a DWI accident this past weekend, in NY.

It's New York's Nanking.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RyomaSakamoto]

73. while you choose to ignore the FACTS i posted

that MATCH UP with our behavior in iraq with japan's in china... the only thing i havent heard YET is medical experiments... but hey, the neoCONs got 4 MORE YEARS, right?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Sad Little Pony]

82. That you missed the point...

..of the "car accident" analogy does not surprise me.
Nor does your lack of manners.

My offense?
Having the nerve to suggest that Nanking does NOT equal Fallujah.

That there is killing and atrocities STILL does not make it so.

And you find it necessary to curse me for this?
No wonder you rely on cheap propaganda as opposed to compelling rhetoric.
You have no other option.

[RyomaSakamoto]

89. true

Fallujah, ain't over yet... it may turn out to be even WORSE than NANKING :cry:

[DrWeird]

102. Oh, I know exactly what you meant.

You come into a thread about how body parts are littering the streets of Fallujah talking about how in no way Fallujah resembles Nanjing any more that a two-fatality car accident when the only real difference is that Fallujah was smaller than Nanjing to begin with. You sound like the Japanese nationalists that pretend that nothing bad happened in Nanjing.

Ironic how an apologist for mass murder talks about manners.

[The Sad Little Pony]

104. Ironic how one...

..accused of engaging in gross hyperbole responds by calling their accuser:

"an apologist for mass murder"

You won't see the irony though, you are blind.

"an apologist for mass murder", because I don't think Nanking is an apt analogy.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Sad Little Pony]

110. Pay attention.

Of course it's NOT an apt analogy.

IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF AN EXTREMELY POOR ANALOGY.

Get it?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

74. Amen, sounds like something Karl Rove drug in......

[The Sad Little Pony]

86. What does the number of dead in Iraq...

...have to do with the number of dead on 911?

You're not one of those idiots who think that Iraq was responsible for 911, are you?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

96. Are you?

[The Sad Little Pony]

103. Hey, you're the one...

...who made the link, not me.


Apparently they got to you.:D

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

148. Made what link?

I think you are getting screen names mixed up here.

I am wondering if you believe that.

Who got to me? You are making no sense.

And I think I recognize you. You really should attempt to cover your writing style a bit better than you have. Tsk tsk.

[RyomaSakamoto]

68. you sound just like the imperial japanese

defending their actions in nanking

[The Sad Little Pony]

75. I'm beginning to dislike your accusations.

Just because you make poor analogies, and don't accept constructive criticism well (boy, is that an understatement), don't take it out on me.

I reject your comparison of Nanking to Fallujah, because I think it's an over statement. Big deal.
You insist though, that it is NOT an overstatement, and to prove this...



...you accuse me of being "just like the Imperial Japanese"?

Thank you for illustrating my point.

I am beginning to doubt that you even read the book?

[RyomaSakamoto]

80. "Just because you make poor analogies"

doesn't not erase your rhetoric, record.

"I am beginning to doubt that you even read the book?"

maybe you need to read more than 1

thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNET ;->

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

84. I'd like everyone following this thread to note

something interesting.

Instead of discussing what is happening in Fallujah, this subthread is concerned with one poster (Sad Little Pony) and his/her assertion that we cannot compare Fallujah to any previous event.

What does that have to do with what is happening in Fallujah?

And how is this subthread diversion from the topic at hand?

Step back and look at the subthread this poster is creating.

[RyomaSakamoto]

88. i think it serves as a useful historical analogy

that helps us to comprehend the horrors we are now witnessing and the people over there are living and dying through.

:shrug:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

94. I was not arguing whether your comparison was apt or not

merely pointing out the meta-analysis of this subthread.

[The Sad Little Pony]

98. But you could also compare EVERY...

...instance of Urban Combat and war to Nanking, if we use your "logic".

Eventually, it ceases to mean anything.

Nanking is SO horrible, that if educated people use it as an "historical analogy", you might lead them to believe...

"Hey, Fallujah's not so bad after all."
That's the risk you run, when you use overblown rhetoric.

It is better to deconstruct the horror, as you have doen, and point out the sad and horrific instances of those pictures.
THEY are ireffutable.

[RyomaSakamoto]

100. i also compared policy

GEACPS

[The Sad Little Pony]

107. That too is apt.

But because there are similarities, regarding the policies, DOES not mean that ALL comparisons between to two are apt.

[The Sad Little Pony]

91. I never asserted that..

...we cannot compare Fallujah to any previous event.

I merely assert that comparisons should be apt.
Comparisons and analogies must be rooted in reality in order to be effective.
Unless you subscribe to the idea that the "best lies contain a grain of truth".

We belittle the horror of Fallujah, if we mistakenly compare it to Nanking, Rwanda, the Holocaust, etc., in an attempt to INCREASE the awareness of said horror.
It has the reverse effect.

It also belittles the horror of the original event.

If I believed in my heart of hearts, that the United States was engaging in something IDENTICAL to Nanking, I would be armed and fighting to overthrow such a regime.
For anyone to do less, shows moral cowardice.
Or a lack of conviction.

So, who's up for an armed insurrection?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

93. I don't see how you can

simply say because it is not as bad as Nanking, you shall NOT fight against it.

There are more ways of fighting than taking up arms.

Your "lack of moral cowardice and conviction" statements are inflammatory red herrings, as there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Below, I asked you to provide an APT comparison, since your objection to this one is seemingly so strong, and you said "why bother?"

Can I assume that the attack of Fallujah does not bother you, and that, by extension, the attack of Iraq causes you the same lack of moral outrage?

[The Sad Little Pony]

111. You make so many assumptions...

..that there is clearly no point in changing what you think.

Maybe you and I are cut from a different cloth.
In my world, I believe Nazis, Fascists and Genocidal maniacs should be fought. By fought I mean FOUGHT.

You apparently believe that the Japanese Imperial Army, and Hitler could have been defeated with words, marches, and well thought message board posts.
I disagree.

That's me.

I'm an activist, and an artist. I've been doing this in Park Slope for 19 years now. I'm also a teacher.

[RetroLounge]

124. Must be hard to fight from mommy's basement

sad.

RL

[The Sad Little Pony]

125. Hmmmm..

I suppose it's easier than coming up with something of substance.

If it's the best you can do, good for you!
You're special too.

[VegasWolf]

113. Good reply Moonbeam, a little intellectual rigor and sad pony falls

off the edge of the earth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

116. Methinks "sad pony" is aptly named.

[The Sad Little Pony]

120. Well yes.

I am a "Sad Little Pony"

Hence the name.

[The Sad Little Pony]

119. Intellectual rigor?

Is that what that was?
I thought it was evasion, suspicion and ad hominum.

I guess you learn something new everyday.

("..off the edge of the earth"? I had dinner:))

[VegasWolf]

122. Intellectual rigor, yes, something I've seen lacking in your posts.

However you do seem very adept at evasion, suspicion and ad hominum.

They are part and parcel of sophmoric debating skills.

Grow up a little and we'll try to have a real conservation.

[The Sad Little Pony]

126. Look back at this discussion.

I made clear concise points.
I was then insulted and attacked.
Look at when things became insulting.
It was those not engaged in the conversation, who just do a drive by insult.
Yet I'm "disruptive"?

"ad hominum"? Me?
Please.

Look in the mirror, you're projecting.

[RyomaSakamoto]

128. you state your opinion rather forcefully

yet you have nothing to back them up with but some tired wwII propaganda and one book with no citations - very lame- yet you get irate at others for passing the word :crazy:

[The Sad Little Pony]

131. Hardly "irate".

I just don't appreciate being called an apologist for "mass murderers".

"nothing to back them up with but some tired wwII propaganda"?

Are you suggesting that my claims about the horrors of Nanking are propaganda, and therefore an exagerration?

That's EXACTLY what many "right wing Japanese nationalists" said about the book and its claims:

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/t/th/the_rape_of_nanking__book_.html

So if that's the case, I do apologize.
To YOU, apparently Nanking really wasn't such a big deal.
NOW I understand.

[RyomaSakamoto]

133. indignant

"Are you suggesting that my claims..."

you actually have made many claims just that what i was posting was inaccurate, though you did state one number that source material doesn't agree with "300k killed" when only about 250k were estimated to still be there when the japanese captured the city. and we also know that they didn't kill every, man, woman, child, property i.e. Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

"re propaganda, and therefore an exagerration?"

yes.

[The Sad Little Pony]

136. Those who debate...

...those numbers ALL have an axe to grind.

Mostly Japanese Nationalists.
Others claim that the numbers are supported by the influx of refugees.
Regardless.
I don't refute ANY of your statistics.
Nor are you comparing the statistics of Fallujah, with those of Nanking. YOU are comparing the "horror".

[RyomaSakamoto]

137. i'm am referring to the AMERICAN clergyman who LIVED in the 'GREEN ZONE'

the only thing new in this world is the history you don't know - h. truman

[The Sad Little Pony]

138. Good night.

I have to put my son to bed.
:)

[RyomaSakamoto]

139. night

hopefully the illegal wars will be over by the time he is of age and that we don't meet the same fate as all the other aggressors scattered throughout the dustbin of history.

[RetroLounge]

123. Your right. Thread jacking and disrupting

it bears watching...

RL

[The Sad Little Pony]

127. You guys have got to be kidding.

A discussion about the use of appropriate analogy in discussions of current events....

...and you suggest I need to be watched?

What is so dangerous about this.
We're on the same side of this issue.

This is oppressive.

[Just Me]

44. Kill one person, it's murder. Kill 100,000s, it's Bush's foreign policy.

None were proven guilty of any crime against our nation or the American people. Yet, the Bush administration has acted as the prosecutor, judge and jury in sentencing these people to a death sentence while proclaiming the deliverance of freedom and democracy. Where is the "pro-life" position in that?

[TheIdiot]

47. This is unfortunately true...

especially when those in flyover country can tell it's over the top, it does us no good.

[The Sad Little Pony]

52. Worse.

It's US in the Intelligent States that KNOW BETTER.
We shouldn't resort to these tactics.
It's dishonest.

[Just Me]

54. How precisely do you counter RW propaganda?

"Being" intelligent,...hasn't been working,...in case you haven't noticed.

[The Sad Little Pony]

57. Being stupid...

...is certainly not the solution.

Intelligent, clear, unquestionable, truth.

It's on our side. Why dillute it with spin?

We've tried the propaganda war.
It didn't turn out well.

[foo_bar]

63. thanks for the whiff of sanity

Truth never damages a cause that is just.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

87. How are people "being stupid" here?

Interested to know.

[The Sad Little Pony]

108. Reread the exchange.

You will see that I did not say anyone was "stupid".

Stop being so defensive.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

146. Your words were

"being stupid is certainly not going to....etc etc."

You certainly said people here were "being stupid."

Stop being evasive and answer my question. How are people here being stupid, to use your words?

[The Sad Little Pony]

149. I suppose...

...that given YOUR inability to comprehend so simple a conversation, as "Just Me" saying:

""Being" intelligent,...hasn't been working,...in case you haven't noticed."

Then I respond with:

"being stupid is certainly not going to....etc etc."

(It's quite clear that I am not calling anyone stupid.)

...that you fail to see this might mean that this needs to be amended.
Pity.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

66. Then why don't you

describe what is going on in Fallujah, sad little pony? You are exhorting everyone else here to do it---you make an attempt.

[The Sad Little Pony]

77. Why even bother?

It seems that there isn't really much of an appetite here for anything other than overblown propaganda and hyperbole (with the exception of a select few).
There are plenty of sources on the web for accurate portrayals of the horrors of this war, without falling for the easy and satisfying sloganeering and choir preaching.

I prefer to have my voice heard in my art, and in discussions just like this.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

81. Ah so

you can tell the people attempting to describe it that they are wrong, but you cannot or will not describe it yourself.

That's all I needed to know.

[PsychoDad]

130. If you kill one person,

It is as if you had killed all of mankind. And if you save a life, it is as if you have saved all of mankind.
-Muhammed (s.a.w)

Holocaust, massacre, one life... where does one draw the line as "acceptable"?

Was it Stalin that said' "one life is a tragedy, a thousand a statistic".

[LynnTheDem]

132. GENOCIDE. America is committing GENOCIDE in Iraq.

THAT, sir, is an OUTRAGE.

[RyomaSakamoto]

33. How did it come to this?

we are TORTURING CHILDREN in front of their MOTHERS and recording it on DV, hello...

ever hear of GEACPS? sounds awfully simular to our version of bringing PEACE, PROSPERITY and SECURITY to a ceratin region of the world.

Study Puts Iraqi Deaths of Civilians at 100,000

By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL,
International Herald Tribune

Published: October 29, 2004

PARIS, Oct. 28 - An estimated 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq as a direct or indirect consequence of the March 2003 United States-led invasion, according to a new study by a research team at the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.

source...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/international/europe/29casualties.html?ex=1100149200&en=02b17696137aaad3&ei=5070

[RyomaSakamoto]

70. no comment, eh

figures

[The_Casual_Observer]

55. They won't need the bayonets here. They do it with bombs

and shelling from a distance. I don't know how a rational human being could condone this genocide.

[The Sad Little Pony]

58. Neither do I.

But it is equally irrational to claim "this is Nanking".

If that is the case, then Normandy was Nanking.
Nanking is Nanking.
Nanking is NOT Nanking.
AND therefore nothing is Nanking.

[Journeyman]

61. Thank you, SLP. . .

for injecting a needed sense of proportion into this issue.

Welcome to DU. I'll look forward to your further posts.

[The Sad Little Pony]

62. Thank you.

I feel welcome.

[Skittles]

71. I figured you would

nt

[The Sad Little Pony]

92. I spoke too soon.

It serves me right.
I should have kept quiet.
Damn these opinions!:)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

95. She didn't thank you for anything

and I wonder why you fear being tossed.

Ahem.

[The Sad Little Pony]

109. You're right.

I thought she was the other poster.

You aren't stalking me are you sweetie? :)

[Skittles]

112. we illegally invaded and bombed a country

and have killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Apologize for THAT. :puke:

[The Sad Little Pony]

129. After you....

It's YOUR country too.
You can't address the substance, so you broadbrush with tar.
That's lazy.


Just because I think Nanking does not Equal Fallujah, does NOT mean that I am an apologist for the Japanese, Hitler, Idi Amin, George Bush, or Hurricane Andrew.

99% of historians would agree.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

147. Don't call me sweetie

and by the way, I recognize your style. I think I recognize YOU.

Sniff.

[The Sad Little Pony]

150. Sorry dear....

...but you are mistaken, and sadly paranoid.

What is this, a purge?
Do I "look Jewish"?

You need to relax.
Stop acting like a hall monitor.
As I tell my younger students: "nobody likes a tattle-tale".

Try focusing your energies on things that are more positive.
You'll be much happier.

[getoffmytrain]

114. ahhhh

Skittles always dropping in with her one liners chiding someone... back at cha, sweetheart.

[RyomaSakamoto]

69. compare our policy in the region with GEACPS

not to mention our RECORD of rape murder and TORTURE of CHILDREN in front of their MOTHERS.

[pffarrell]

67. Yep, just saw it on the news

they sit in computer rooms to direct the bombs. not that they're not heroes or anything /sarcasm off

[wordout]

121. "they sit in computer rooms.."

just_like my little pony & friends.

notice they alllllllways bring up that old holocaust story?

[natrat]

83. just give gracious leader a while

and then we can revisit the comparison, unfortunatly

[Matilda]

145. I've read some of the horror stories of Vietnam,

and a lot of things went on there that draw a parallel to what you're
saying.

No reason to suppose this won't be the same.

[mortimer_az]

118. Holy f*ck, dude

Jesus,
Graphic isn't strong enough to warn against those images. Those will haunt me forever.

[jmcgowanjm]

39. When US targets journalists it's hard to source

Which is the reason the US targets journalists.
BushCo has taken Orwell's warnings for prescriptions.

We're using the Falluja hospital to attack from.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x971947

A layered Defence in Urban areas is always the better tactic,
but for it to work the defenders have to stand their ground,
they can not fold.In say a defended area like Fallujah.Set
up layers of defenders maybe between 6-8 layers usually
along street lines.The Idea is to defend the
outer perimeter,places that are attacked the defenders are
able to defend along the line ie shuffling teams of men along
the line to defend when necessary.But it is also it is important
to leave open areas that are defended but where the
defenders do not show themselves or fire.The attacker
spends his time probing the perimeter,eventually he finds
a weaker spot and concentrates on that.The layered
defenders allow the attacker through between 3-5 layers
then they close the door on them.If the attackers go forward
they meet resistnce if they retreat they meet resistnce they
are essentially trapped between layers.Helicopter
gunships artillery and ariel bombardment cannot be
used because of fear of hitting your own
troops.

Bloody 24 hours if this reporter is accurate.

U.S Soldiers Killed..........261
U.S Soldiers Captured.... 39
CIA/Intelligence............ 21
British Soldiers Killed...... 2
British Soldiers Captured. 10
ING Surrendered............101

Abrams Main Battle Tank 15
Humvees..................... 17
Bradley Fighting Vehicles 7
APCs........................... 4
Trucks/Tankers............ 18
Unknown Helicopters...... 3
Apachee Helicopters..... 1
BlackHawk Helicopters.. 1

believe it or not

[TheIdiot]

48. God, I hope not...

many of us have relatives over there.

[natrat]

90. jeez 261 dead

that means a factor of 10, or whatever, injured/maimed

[LynnTheDem]

135. Link for this report?

Please?

[jmcgowanjm]

141. Here you go, LynnThe Dem

Whatever I can do:

Al-Jazeera TV, al-`Arabiyah TV refuse to broadcast video of
US
prisoners in al-Fallujah out of fear of US reprisals.

http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/resistance-reports/2440/

A man pulled out from behind a wall and fired an RPG at
my tank. I have to get another tank to go back in there," he
added without giving details.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1239563.htm

A lot of the mosques have also been
bombed.

For the first time in Falluja, a city of 150 mosques, I did not
hear a single call to prayer this morning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3996111.stm

[AFSCME girl]

4. I am just sick over this....

I am looking to join a United for Peace and Justice group in my area to channel some of my frustration over this whole stupid mess!! :mad:

[illuminaughty]

10. Did you get a notice from them?

I just got something that's calling for active protests this Thursday. I think it was sent through Nov.3rd pledge.

[AFSCME girl]

13. Hi illuminaughty!

I am in Michigan and I found just found two groups that would be close by and I'm gonna email them today. I'm gonna find out what they have going on for Thursday, too. Where are you at?

:hi:

[illuminaughty]

20. I'm in Kansas City

I hope there will be something happening here. But probably so, since there is still a weekly peace rally each Sunday. The KCIraqTaskForce will probably sponsor something. Can't wait to hit the streets.

[AFSCME girl]

30. Me either! n/t

:hi:

[bif]

45. If you're in MI, here's a good site to check

http://www.mecawi.org/

[AFSCME girl]

49. Cool, thanks bif!

:hi:

[Webster Green]

5. "Body parts everywhere".....

The hallmark of the chimp presidency...

Praise the Lord

[maddezmom]

6. this will never make it to the mainstream press and US public

until every last person left in Fallujah is dead, if then. :(

[molly]

7. Ahhhh - yes but they are EVIL and we are GOOD

OMG - I cannot even tell you how much I HATE *!

[Catchawave]

18. I was thinking the same thing...

Thanks goodness for the international press.

[Sperk]

11. praise the LORD! Freedom is on the march!!!

God, what do we tell our children?

[catmandu57]

14. Tell them

that homosexuals and lesbians wanting to get married was so important, that they had to be stopped at all cost so that the lord could punish those evil muslims.
Now, watch as this is swept under the rug, and spun into golden thread to weave the dictators new garments.

[Hav]

16. That's what Jesus wanted us to do.

[ilovenicepeople]

134. If freedom is on the march means

the American people have had anough killing and they are marching to the white house to stop it,then it would be something to proudly tell your children.But sadly....WHATEVER

[psychopomp]

15. The time is now

The end of the beginning of the end of the American dream of world hegemony.

RIP to the fallen in Fallujah.

[NNN0LHI]

19. The US is killing people trying to protect their homes and families

Oh, shit man. I am getting really concerned we are going to pay a heavy price for this shit.

Don

[leftchick]

27. ah yes, Blowback....

I can see it already and it is quite frightening. Four more years for me to go completely insane over this shit.

[natrat]

97. yea

Oh, shit man. I am getting really concerned we are going to pay a heavy price for this shit.
Don
yea no doubt, it's going from a maybe to a distinct possibility. Too bad it cant be focussed on those who deserve it

[peekaloo]

21. Lots of Frankensteins will be constructed from those body parts.

metaphor for the masses

[riverwalker]

22. Howitzers for Jesus

The new moral values xmas trees in jesusland will have Howitzer replicas in every living room, all decked out with Iraqi body parts.

[SoCalDem]

23. That's what Rumsfeld meant.. there will be no bodies..only parts

Archaeogists will someday add up the arm bones and divide by 2..
:(

[leftchick]

24. true...

:(

[DS1]

42. 155 Shells KILL everything within a 25 yard radius - no questions

unless you're in a fortified bunker - which I doubt many of these people are.

[DS1]

43. 155 Shells KILL everything within a 25 yard radius - no questions

unless you're in a fortified bunker - which I doubt many of these people are.

[wiggs]

50. Real casuality figures will not be given out.

How often over the last several months have we heard about thousands of troops battling insurgents, about 2000 pound bombs being dropped, about multiple air strikes, and the media reports.....12 Iraqi insurgents killed.

The numbers we hear on the radio about the number of Iraqi's killed seem incredibly low, given the intesity of conflict and and equipment being used.

We're not ever going to know the true body count.

[Mr_Spock]

56. Fire up the barbeque!

OK, so I have a morbid sense of humor!

[Gregorian]

59. Is there no law regarding the murder of 100,000 people?

I hear that there is no criminal law regarding the killing of people by a president.
I am terribly disturbed that this is going to continue. We seem to be following Bush's path, gathering up evidence of fraud and crime and corruption. The trail is huge. And here we are, still following. What we need is to get in front of him and stop this, NOW.
As far as Bush is concerned, he can do whatever he wants, without any answering.
The UN has no teeth, evidently.
And meanwhile, death and destruction are rampant. We cannot continue this, and we must find a way to stop HIM. How are we going to do it? The election is probably over. And if so, then we had better do this, because every death that we don't stop, is on our conscience. We are responsible, because it is in our name.

[cthrumatrix]

78. ask the "party of values" leading this war....

[Malva Zebrina]

60. The big problem is that we do NOT know what is going down

in Fallujah. We are making guesses and those guesses are based on events leading up to this, with great emphasis and fanfare as if, indeed, we were in Nanking. And even then, we do not know and cannot be sure that any information we are being given or fed, is the truth.

We have had a great fanfare of buildup as if, indeed, we were fighting a noble battle like in WWII, when the so called enemy is virtually without any ordnance to speak of.


We are all just guessing or imagining because that is the most we can do right now with what we got.And we imagine the worst--thereby the references to Nanking and other slaughters. How does anyone know is going down in Fallujah? It will take years to be written into history--and no William Shirer there -- no Ernie Pyles on the front.

daisy cutter bombs--perhaps they are equal to bayonets--we got bigger stuff now--don't need that up close and personal stuff. We can maim and torture surgically.

[RyomaSakamoto]

85. we actually know MORE than any previous nations people at war

and in the shortest amount of time to boot.

thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNET ;->

psst... pass the word

[drdtroit]

152. Don't you mean "internets"? n/t

[AngryOldDem]

99. Why isn't the U.S. military being more upfront about casualties?

This probably will be overlooked since it's so far down in the thread, but during the news conference with one of the U.S. officers today, the media could not pin him down on casualties. The guy gave some bullshit answer about "incomplete figures" and moved on. One reporter got pissed.

Then at the end, this officer extended his and the military's sympathy and thanks to the dead soldiers and their families for making the sacrifice for their country. I extended my middle finger toward the TV in a proper salute.

Why aren't they being more forthright about how many lives this is/will cost???? Have they indeed learned NOTHING from Vietnam?

[natrat]

101. how do they cover up american deaths?

rove working on that now

[RyomaSakamoto]

140. no photos allowed

and we don't count the foreigners fighting in our employ

[Darranar]

105. More promotion of democracy and the rule of law. n/t

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[acmavm]

143. Oh, I see. Anyone who doesn't believe in the murder of thousand of

people who's country we invaded based on lies and greed are called traitors? What a load of shit.

These people are traitors to the human race. To advocate the murder of women, children, old people, people who couldn't escape in my mind makes them some kind of subhuman knuckle dragging pre-evolutionary throwback. I'm not one who condemns the troops, but I sure as hell don't condone murdering people who's main objection is the fact that we invaded their country, occupied it under the pretense of 'liberating' them, and then blew the shit out of anyone who didn't think we had a right to install a fake government who was chock full of people who didn't have the balls to hang around while Saddam was in power, who scooted rather than stay and defend their country (oh yeah, Allawi was one of the cretins that put Saddam in power. Wouldn't it be fun to know what their little disagreement was really all about?).

What I would really like to hear from a fucking right to lifer is exactly who do they feel has a right to life. And what's even funnier about that pathetic little internet 'rag' is that they are the minority. More and more and more and more people all over the planet are getting really sick and tired of these blood-thirsty bastards. And I hope and pray for some great big cosmic Karma to come and bite them in the ass.

[goforit]

144. Send these young innocent men to the Christian Right!!!

As they(CR) keep fighting for lives not born,
they send more to the slaughter house!!!

They worship satan!!!

[jmcgowanjm]

151. i'm seeing alot more of this

The first round of the playoffs is always the two
extremes against the center. Only after the center is
vanquished will you meet your radical counterparts in
the championship round.

Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or
fearsome, they (politicians, preachers, pundits) encourage
you to cling to your ignorance with even more fervor. But by
this time you don't need much encouragement—you've put
all your eggs into the ignorance basket, and really, some kind
of miraculous fruition (preferably accompanied by the torment
of your enemies, and the ignorant always have plenty
of enemies) is your only hope. If you are sufficiently ignorant,
you won't even know how dangerous your policies are until
they have destroyed you, and then you can always blame
others.

http://www.slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2109218&