Marines prepare for heavy casualties in battle to retake Fallujah

[everythingsxen]

WITH U.S. FORCES NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - The number of dead and wounded from the expected battle to retake insurgent-controlled Fallujah probably will reach levels not seen since Vietnam, a senior surgeon at the Marine camp outside Fallujah said Thursday.


Navy Cmdr. Lach Noyes said the hospital here is preparing to handle 25 severely injured soldiers a day, not counting walking wounded and the dead. The hospital has added two operating rooms, doubled its supplies, added a mortuary and stocked up on blood reserves. Doctors have set up a system of ambulance vehicles that will rush to the camp's gate to receive the dead and wounded so units can return to battle quickly.

More...

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/special_packages/iraq/10100670.htm?1c

[skooooo]

1. Hope they don't get whiney about it..

...America doesn't like "girly men".

[DS1]

3. Marines whine about EVERYTHING! It's in our blood

:-)

Yet. in all seriousness, just like in 'Nam, we fight for hills / cities only to leave them a week later - so we can go back in and do it again at the whim of the WH.

When John Kerry flip-flopped, nobody had to die.

[Skittles]

50. LOL, I smacked down a Marine at work the other day

I mentioned I was in the Air Force and he said "wusses". So I said, ya know, when I was in the Air Force I liked dating Marines - they weren't too smart and they took orders really well. BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA :D

Of course I jest - they were great guys, a LOT of fun

[Sara Beverley]

38. I can't believe there will be that many American casualties.

With the fire power that we have and the supposed intel and infiltration that we have we should be able to take Fallujah without much difficulty. We are going to flatten the city. This is just a way to get the American public pumped up and believing that we had to level the place because the insurgents were just too awesome. Come on folks, this is rag-tag group of desert rats that we are going after. We want cover for the damage we are going to do and the number of civilians we are going to kill.

[jpak]

43. They will be going in with new Iraqi troops

and half of them are probably insurgent double-agents.

They could really fuck things up for the Marines.

Just a thought...

:)

[daleo]

67. It sounds like you are comfortable with genocide

I pity you.

[daleo]

126. Rereading the post, perhaps I misinterpreted

I had a few beers at the time I first posted. I think the poster's phrase that this is just propaganda cover for killing lots of civilians may indicate that she is not in fact comfortable with the situation.

[JSJ]

73. don't misunderestimate the Iraqis, madamne blood

[NickB79]

76. Flatten the city

Yes, a city of 300,000 people. Women, children, babies, the elderly. They will all be flattened in the name of Bush. What does it matter if there won't be many AMERICAN casualties? The Iraqis are human too, are they not?

"the supposed intel and infiltration that we have"

Where did you even begin to think this one up? The US was RUN OUT of Fallujah in April, and we haven't had a single US soldier back in it since then. We have no intel or infiltration in place, because we have no one that could blend in convincingly. In fact, WE are the ones who have been infiltrated, with the Iraqi soldiers supposedly fighting alongside us composed of many, many resistance fighters working undercover. The only intel we have in Fallujah is from planes flying overhead, but no eyes or ears in the city itself.

"this is rag-tag group of desert rats that we are going after"

No, this is the majority of the Iraqi population, numbering in the millions. The Vietnamese were just "gooks" and "rice-pickers" to the average American, yet they kicked our asses. The Iraqis, rag-tag group they may be, have been hammering the US for over a year now, and show no signs of letting up.

And BTW, unless we drop a nuke on the place, we won't be flattening the city. It covers miles of land, and it would take weeks of sustained aerial bombardment to destroy most of the buildings. That means there will be plenty of structures left standing for Iraqi fighters to hide in. And, if we do destroy large sectors of the city, how do we bring in our armored vehicles, tanks, and Humvees, when the roads are cratered and littered with rubble? We will be forced to fight ON FOOT, street by street, and in this kind of war, our superior technology becomes a moot point. Just as we learned in Vietnam, and as the Germans learned in Stalingrad, streetfighting is the worst possible way to wage a war. And in this battle, the Iraqis have home-field advantage.

Just as Texas had "Remember the Alamo" as their rallying cry, so too will the Iraqis soon have "Remember Fallujah" as theirs.

[GoBlue]

87. Most reports I've seen

suggest that 50-60K holdouts remain in Fallujah. Methinks most are armed and willing to defend themselves. Our military has very little experience in urban guerrila warfare. I think about Battle of the Little Big Horn.

[LongTomH]

127. The people of Fallujah plead for help from the UN

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_13236.shtml

I'm going to be very dissapointed in Kofi Annan if he doesn't speak out on this. I doubt the administration will listen to a sane voice; but I'll still be dissapointed if he remains silent.

For that matter, I'm going to be very dissapointed in myself if I don't speak out!:grr:

[leesa]

135. Right. These rag-tag civilians have been kicking our asses for the last

year, or didn't you notice?
If a lot of Marines are killed, so be it. WE are the bad guys here, not the Iraqis. They didn't do anything to us when we decided to invade their disarmed, UN compliant country.
I know these guys are only following orders, but many of them are also gun-ho to kill. If this is the only way America learns to stop being abusers, then so be it.

[devilgrrl]

2. Big deal.

Not my problem.

[Ilsa]

8. It's getting pretty hard to feel sympathetic for

people who vote for the one who's trying to get them killed.

[skooooo]

9. not all of them voted for Bush...

...so not sure why you say this.

[Ilsa]

27. Hey, all I'm saying is that they don't make it easy, do they?

If 70% are plugging (no one knows what the real numbers are, do they?) for continuation of the status quo, my sympathy starts getting fatigued. I'm not "anti-troop". I'm not going to abandon efforts to bring them home. I can understand how devilgrl might say, "It's not my problem" (if in fact, I understood her correctly).

[skooooo]

31. Sad thing is we don't know how they voted...

...probably never will. So I'm not going to make any assumptions.

[Ilsa]

42. I'm having a knee-jerk reaction, admittedly.

I'm pissed at about 70% of the people in my town. I can't handle watching much of any news because I don't want to see those smug people.

Who knows? Next week I may feel differently. But for tonight, I'm going to cut devilgrl a little slack with her attitude because mine isn't much better. ;)

[daleo]

68. You are so right

How can we know? Kerry's caving in robbed us of that knowledge.

[tedzbear]

142. CNN said 80% of our soldiers voted for the chimp.

eom

[tedzbear]

143. Even the soldiers who voted for Kerry are NOT MY PROBLEM.

I voted for Kucinich. I voted for Kerry. I have marched in lots of anti-war demos.

Any dead or maimed soldiers are now the responsibility of the vengeful 51% of our electorate who voted for the chimp. It's ALL on THEM now. I've stopped giving a fuck.

:nuke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You know I dunno what it will take

but the troops snap up and salute

Moreover, NOT all of them voted for bush...

Oh and one more thing, what happens when you have to fill your ballot in front of your commander? (Which is unprecedented) in a combat zone?

Think 'bout this ok

[devilgrrl]

21. I already have thought about it....

obviously, it doesn't matter what I think, so why should I keep caring?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Don't care, then

I hope your attitude will extend to the kids ON OUR SIDE taht will be drafted.

Sure way to win their heartrs and minds.

[devilgrrl]

36. You may what to copy your sanctimonious message...

because you're going to have to post it to everyone else who have been saying the same things I have.

You'll be copying and pasting all evening.

[truth2power]

44. Guess I'll add myself to that list of those who've been saying it too.

A friend of mine works at a high school. She tells me that the military recruiters are there almost every day. I used to torture myself over the thought of these high school kids who are signing up.

But no more. I decided yesterday that it's not my problem anymore. Many of the kids signing up are walking around wearing Bush t shirts, according to my friend. It seems fair to assume that their parents likely voted for Bush.

So if their parents want to sacrifice their sons and daughters as fodder for that mental case in the WH, I just frigging don't care anymore.

Flame away! I gotta find some sanity somewhere, and it's a waste of time to worry about soldiers who were sent to their deaths not by me, but by their own parents who voted for that sicko bastard. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

[llmart]

94. Add me to the list too.

Can't drum up any sympathy for them IF (and that's my qualification) they or their families voted for Bush.

[atreides1]

110. Me Too

And I'm a former soldier and Gulf War vet. If this is what mommy and daddy wanted then so be it, when they get the notification team at their door, I won't be shedding any tears for them.

[saigon68]

112. kick

[saigon68]

131. Me too Troop supporters--There are a lot of thugs and hoodlums

who like to kill. Rape a woman, kill a Rag-Head-- Get a medal

[Redroach]

133. Ballot Signing

I marked my ballot for McGovern in 1972 right in front of my TAC Commander. I saluted, smiled and about-faced. That's how you do it.

[pinkpops]

60. Back in the 60's there was a phrase - what if they had a war and

nobody came? I feel sorry for soldiers and their families. But their lives are no more valuable than the innocent victims. But by and large, they have put themselves in the position they are in. They kill people just because someone like George Bush tell them to.

[info being]

114. I agree. They are more guilty than the Iraqi's...that's for sure.

[halobeam]

64. that kind of statement was the attitude against the vietnam vets

I'm not sure either, why you said that.

[Ilsa]

65. Please check my other posts in this thread, Thanks. n/t

[sr_pacifica]

72. That statement rings of truth.

We're all called to the moral high road and to use our intellects. People who join the military can't be so easily let off the hook for their choices. Plenty of people decide NOT to join the military for reasons of conscience. Granted, some of these soldiers and marines are seduced into joining up by unscrupulous military headhunters who prey on young impressionable high-schoolers. But many join up to defend "God and country." Any one who did that during *s regime is morally bankrupt or just plain stooo-pid.

[JSJ]

74. people who kill people during acts of genocide deserve...

...bad kharma and a pissed off citizenry. The veterans (other than the draftees) of the American genocidal action against Vietnam deserved or deserve no less.

[0007]

99. To be a paid assassin for bush is a joke, I'm goddamn sure why!



[The Constable]

144. Why...

...should someone's political stance make them unworthy of your sympathy? For God's sakes, they're out there DYING, and all you can say is "they voted for Bush, they deserve it"?

That's damn cold of you.

[Skittles]

54. excuse me?

explain that

[physioex]

77. I share in your cynicism......EOM

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. I hate to say it...

But I have a feeling that a lot of people are about to recognize that they made a little mistake on Tuesday.

[leftchick]

52. nope...

a life threatening major mistake. As we all tried so hard to tell them.

[Obviousman]

5. I hope murkins are tough enough

I hope murkins are tough enough endure what they voted in favor of

[Ilsa]

6. Someone 'splain to l'il ole me:

why do we want to retake Fallujah?

[w13rd0]

11. It's a hotbed of dissent...

...kinda like Illinois and California and New York.

[neomonkey]

22. LOL good one

Here in California, we have to "worry" about incoming from NK and Washington D.C. now...

[flygal]

79. LOL - don't forget Honolulu!

[Uber Llama]

14. No one really knows....

[HysteryDiagnosis]

128. Because it's there.... because they don't want us picking their

government, because they don't care for puppets, because we fought to get the Brits out, because Bremer privatized and raped their economic infrastructure to hell and back and they are a bit upset about it... just because.

[qanda]

7. Oh well

Now that Bush has the "will of the people" I guess people will soon learn what that means.

[Disturbed]

13. Iraq Elections

In Jan. Iraqis will be voting. Their choices will be easy. Allawi and his gang will be the only ones on the ballot.

[Ilsa]

28. That makes sense. Thanks. n/t

[durablend]

32. Have faith--they'll probably have a couple more candidates

But Rove will fix that election as well so it won't make a difference.

[Laelth]

62. Sounds like our election to me.

Goody for them. Freedom is on the march!

(detect irony!)

-Laelth

[daleo]

69. Will you believe election results from Iraq?

I'm sorry, I get what you mean now. I had a few beers.

[w13rd0]

10. For every soldier or Iraqi civilian that dies...

...over there in Bush's war, 2 Bush voters stateside should... um... exceed their expiration date... That would be the execution of karma.

[htuttle]

12. You are warned to stand by for an important announcement at fifteen-thirty

'Fifteen-thirty! This is news of the highest importance. Take care not to miss it. Fifteen-thirty!' The tinking music struck up again.

Winston's heart stirred. That was the bulletin from the front; instinct told him that it was bad news that was coming. All day, with little spurts of excitement, the thought of a smashing defeat in Africa had been in and out of his mind. He seemed actually to see the Eurasian army swarming across the never-broken frontier and pouring down into the tip of Africa like a column of ants. Why had it not been possible to outflank them in some way? The outline of the West African coast stood out vividly in his mind. He picked up the white knight and moved it across the board. There was the proper spot. Even while he saw the black horde racing southward he saw another force, mysteriously assembled, suddenly planted in their rear, cutting their comunications by land and sea. He felt that by willing it he was bringing that other force into existence. But it was necessary to act quickly. If they could get control of the whole of Africa, if they had airfields and submarine bases at the Cape, it would cut Oceania in two. It might mean anything: defeat, breakdown, the redivision of the world, the destruction of the Party! He drew a deep breath. An extraordinary medley of feeling -- but it was not a medley, exactly; rather it was successive layers of feeling, in which one could not say which layer was undermost -- struggled inside him.

...

To the past, or to the future. To an age when thought is free. From the Age of Big Brother, from the Age of the Thought Police, from a dead man... greetings.

[prolesunited]

15. Orwell was such a visionary

unfortunately. :-(

[VegasWolf]

16. Heavy Cauasalties - few troops = draft. These people will

get what they voted for. The equation also = DEATH.

[kskiska]

17. Doesn't matter anymore to * the number of casualties

I doubt we'll be hearing much about them anymore. * can do as he pleases.

[VegasWolf]

24. True, they can now start showing caskets on TV. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. gee why they have taken the first steps to the draft today

call me surprsied....

[Magleetis]

20. Welcome to Bush's

America. Let the killing begin.

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. Hey brave fighting men! The USA doesn't give a shit what happens to you

And they don't want to look at your ugly coffin when it comes back.
So have a good time and don't bother to write.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Hold it, you and I do

it is the RIGHT and BushCo that does not.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. You have that right, but since we are totally disenfranchised

You may as well just call it the USA.

[gulfcoastliberal]

29. Bush is just getting ready to spend his capital

If Iraq was his mandate from a coup, just imagine what we are in for. The sun may be coming up every morning, but these are dark, dark days.

[Judi Lynn]

118. You're right! He'll be spending that capital they voted for him!

Also, bringing even more freedom to the people of Fallujah. You know, he's just too good for us, after all. We really don't deserve someone who pracises so much love with the world.


I keep on dancin'

[okieinpain]

33. they will retake fallujah, and just as soon as they sit down to take

a smoke brake the insurgents will sneak right back in. hell what makes them think that the insurgents are going stay in fallujah anyway. if I was them and I saw them building up to attack, I would just move to a different city and setup their. honestly do any of you really think bush is going to stick this one out, I don't casulities will be bumping on 2000 by the time numb nutts get sworn in. he's going to yank the soldiers out so fast it won't even be funny. he only problem is he will have to find a new war for them.

[The_Casual_Observer]

35. I have been thinking the same thing

They have probably mostly shoved off to wait for a better day. The few remaining ones are probably martyrs who will put up a nasty fight.

[everythingsxen]

37. Unfortunately..

We have had the city encircled for a few months now.

The insurgents are there.

However, the body-count may not be so high for us - they are talking about leveling the city.

[Skittles]

56. "leveling the city" is going to create more terrorists

millions more

[0007]

101. Do 'ya thing the holy rollers indeed care? This is big business

and junior knows it! little dick knows it! and the Carlyle Group and Halliburton can't count fast enough.

"Onward Christians soldiers marching on to war, hear their cry for Jays'us as they..........

[leesa]

137. Stop calling them insurgents. They are Iraqi citizens protecting their

nation. Stop demonizing these people.

[atreides1]

111. I Think It's A Little More Then That

Look at the Siege of Stalingrad, every building that the Germans bombed became bunkers and fighting positions. Think of all the places in the rubble that the insurgents can plant IEDs, or launch an ambush from.

They can use IEDs to channel the Marines into a direction they want them to take, when they get to an intersection or even a specific neighborhood, they rise up from the rubble fire, and run.

They can do this for days, and they don't even need that many insurgents to conduct these hit and run tactics. After losing enough
men the Marines will pull back and send in tanks, and the rest of the operation will be slow.

Then the insurgents can even take out a few tanks as well.

Fallujah is the perfect place for the conduct of guerilla war tactics,
the US has already provided bunkers with all of the rubble, and denied themselves clear avenues to advance.

But it all depends on the insurgents in the city, and what they do.

[aneerkoinos]

47. Fallujans

I have strong suspicion all the able men of that city of 300 000 are "insurgents" or more correctly freedom fighters. But let's be conservative and assume only half of them are willing to fight to defend their homes. That makes only 50 000 men. Could be even less, like 20 000. I'm afraid they will stand ground, like they did last time. Sure, in addition to city militia there are professional fighters, probably few thousand, most of whom are more usefull fighting outside the town, ambushing and cutting supply lines.

Last time it was the Marines that ended up encircled, supply routes cut by thousends of resistance fighters from Baghdad, Ramadi and lots of other places. No doubt the fighting will not be limited to Fallujah this time.

US leadership still seems to think it's only Zarqawi and couple thousend men, foreign and Iraqi, they are up against. They underestimated last time and could do the same mistake again. It is not the same opponent as last time, but even more resolute and better prepared with a previous victory under their belt. Any case, city fighting is bloody, and the bloodier the quicker you need to do it. Last time it didn't get to real city fight, Marines occupied only the industrial area. Like last time, Marines have only limited time, political cost piling up, Brits watching their back only few weeks. And even if they succeed quickly and occupy the city, the militia men will just hide their weapons and go home. What it takes is putting all the men of Fallujah they can capture in consentration camp or...

[grytpype]

34. "We're not going to have any casualties."

"Jeebus told me."

[fedsron2us]

39. How many Iraqi civilians are going to die in this bloodbath

Does anyone care about them ? They did not vote for Bush. Why should they die for the folly of the American electorate.

[jpak]

40. 1127 dead GI's is OK with the Repugs

2000+ dead will be OK with them too.

At the end of the Chimp's reign there will be 5000+ dead at this rate.

But if it's OK with the morans - then it's OK with me.

I've seen the light sweet Jesus!!!!!!

[Bluebear]

41. At least we saved frozen embryos from research

[jpak]

45. Maybe the Chimp could use them for a Clone Army

He could use them to get around that nasty ol' Draft thingy....

[Skittles]

57. and gays cannot get married

these things are so much more important that thousands of dead soldiers and Iraqi civilians

[wabeewoman]

106. Yep

I can't tell you the number of times I heard from repukes, whatcha complaining about? we lost more men on the beaches of normandy in one day than have been lost in Iraq and on and on.... Have you checked out Riverbends blog lately. Scroll down to Some Terrorists http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[CityDem]

46. Why not just level Fallujah

It's not worth wasting any US soldiers lives. Just level the place and let the winds take care of the rest.

[everythingsxen]

48. They are discussing that very possibility....

However, given that it is one of the holiest sites to the Sunni Muslim world...

That may not be a good idea.

Unless of course you like fighting Iraq... and Iran and every other Sunni who wants to join the fight. I have no doubt Syria would join in - they know it's only a matter of time before we attack them.

[jpak]

53. Why not level the whole damned country???

Why not just herd them into concentration camps, gas them and then incinerate them???

It's not like they're human beings or something, right....

FUCK THAT NAZI SHIT AND FUCK ALL REPUBLICANS.

[Skittles]

58. you sound like a f***ing republican

nt

[daleo]

70. You sound like you are comfortable with genocide

Your position would have made sense in Hitler's cabinet.

[Bridget Burke]

91. Why don't you go help them?

Get some of that blood on your own hands. Iraqi blood, or blood from an American soldier.

Or maybe your own.

[TheKingfish]

129. Cause i rather level wherever you are right now n/t

[Selwynn]

134. As long as we can send you there first.

I'm still in my anger phase of grief, so I'm going to say fuck you, and not apologize about it.

[leesa]

138. Your immorality is impressive. "It's not worth wasting any of OUR

precious soldiers lives". Fuck you.

[Skittles]

49. thanks to all those assholes who voted for Bush

I am absolutely disgusted.

[leftchick]

55. you and me both Skittles...

ameriKans have become mindless drones. I think even when their kids are hauled away in the draft they will be saluting them as "fighting for our freedoms". fucking sick... :puke:

[Skittles]

59. as long as gays cannot get married

who gives a f*** about dead soldiers?

[Jack Schitt]

51. Soldiers dying, economy tanking, decreased healthcare/jobs...

but hey! Gays can't marry! That's what's important!

</sarcasm>

:eyes:

[Skittles]

61. gawd, Baraka

and a lot of those people call themselves "Christians". :puke:

[killbotfactory]

83. We sure done stuck it to them queers!

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeee-haw!

[rfkrocks]

63. America wants the war what can we do? we voted and

Shrub is triumphant-he is responsible for the war and he got a green light-decisions and elections have consequences-as the Kaiser told his foreign minister after declaring world war one-"you made this gruel-now you will have to eat it".America is going to be eating its gruel

[daleo]

66. I am sorry to hear this

I am sorry that people can love war so much.

[reprobate]

96. And I'm sorry that OUR OWN people can love war so much.

They are supposed to be americans, and weren't we all taught that america values life? I'm old enough to remember when it was the chinese that did not value life but we did.

What happened to americans?

Oh, sorry. Bush happened.

[TacticalPeek]

71. Can't screw it up much worse, Shrub's Folly.

washingtonpost.com
Key General Criticizes April Attack In Fallujah
Abrupt Withdrawal Called Vacillation

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, September 13, 2004; Page A17

FALLUJAH, Iraq, Sept. 12 -- The outgoing U.S. Marine Corps general in charge of western Iraq said Sunday he opposed a Marine assault on militants in the volatile city of Fallujah in April and the subsequent decision to withdraw from the city and turn over control to a security force of former Iraqi soldiers.

The comments by Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, made shortly after he relinquished command of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force on Sunday, amounted to a stinging broadside against top U.S. military and civilian leaders who ordered the Fallujah invasion and withdrawal. His statements also provided the most detailed explanation -- and justification -- of Marine actions in Fallujah this spring, which have been widely criticized for increasing insurgent activity in the city and turning it into a "no-go" zone for U.S. troops.

Conway arrived in Iraq in March pledging to accelerate reconstruction projects as a way to subdue Anbar province, dominated by Sunni Muslims. But on March 31 he was confronted in Fallujah with the killing of four U.S. security contractors, whose bodies were mutilated or burned by a celebrating mob. Conway said he resisted calls for revenge, and instead advocated targeted operations and continued engagement with municipal leaders.

"We felt like we had a method that we wanted to apply to Fallujah: that we ought to probably let the situation settle before we appeared to be attacking out of revenge," he said in an interview with four journalists after the change-of-command ceremony. "Would our system have been better? Would we have been able to bring over the people of Fallujah with our methods? You'll never know that for sure, but at the time we certainly thought so."

...

"We follow our orders," Conway said. "We had our say, and we understood the rationale, and we saluted smartly, and we went about the attack."

...

"When you order elements of a Marine division to attack a city, you really need to understand what the consequences of that are going to be and not perhaps vacillate in the middle of something like that," he said. "Once you commit, you got to stay committed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16309-2004Sep12?language=printer



Salon

Turning point
A journalist who was embedded with the U.S. Marines in Fallujah explains how the Bush White House lost the key battle of the Iraq war.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David J. Morris

Sept. 16, 2004



The mainstream press has largely overlooked the fact that in the case of Fallujah, the White House unnecessarily injected itself into the military's tactical decision-making process in Iraq, ignored the informed opinions of ground commanders, and in effect micromanaged the battle. According to many observers, the seemingly contradictory U.S. military actions over the course of the siege were largely the result of the wishy-washy directives being issued by the Bush administration and its failure to appreciate the implications of sending in a large Marine force to seize a notoriously hostile town.

To both outside observers and former high-placed officials, including former U.S. Central Command chief Anthony Zinni and historian Robert Kaplan, it appeared as if the Bush administration had ordered the punitive campaign out of anger and then lost nerve when Arab outrage over civilian casualties rose to a fever pitch. Says Kaplan, who was embedded with the Marines during the opening stages of the battle and who later wrote about it for the Atlantic Monthly, "It's fine to send in the Marines. It's fine to have a cease-fire, but you can't do both. What this amounts to is ... foreign policy incoherence."

...

The restraint on the part of the Marines on the ground is in line with Conway's instructions to his subordinate commanders at the time. I spoke with Conway at a Marine base in California before he departed for Iraq, and he spoke passionately about his finely wrought ideals of cooperation with Iraqis and hopes of establishing youth soccer leagues throughout western Iraq. He explained with pride that a plan was in the works to bring a delegation from the Congressional Black Caucus to speak to Sunni tribal leaders about legislative coalition building for minority groups in a democracy. All of this stands in stark contrast to what unfolded once the Marines crossed the Rubicon and into the dark heart of Fallujah.

...

Conway's exculpatory comments Sunday highlight the extent to which the White House was "joysticking" events on the ground (in contradiction to the often celebrated post-Vietnam tradition of keeping the Beltway out of the commander's tent). Given the inestimable benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the White House's draconian response to the March 31 killing of the contractors was a complete disaster. What remains obscure is the rationale behind the Bush administration's ill-advised policy and its uncharacteristic willingness to flatly overrule on-scene commanders such as Conway.



http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/16/fallujah/

[reprobate]

97. White House unnecessarily injected itself --just like adolf

This is exactly why hitler lost the war. He had to micromanage the tactical decisions against the advice of his generals.

But then Lil' Boots was never that interested in reading so history is not something he studied much.

Remember: "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it"?

This bunch in charge now are just as arrogant and falsly sure of themselves as old adolf was. And will buy themselves the same result.

[LongTomH]

125. "Establishing youth soccer leagues throughout Western Iraq"

These people are totally removed from reality!:crazy:

[LibDemAlways]

75. I heard a woman from a think tank

interviewed by Charlie Rose some weeks back who said it's a folly to think we could ever "take" Fallujah. We're about to find out.

[NickB79]

78. Exactly. The moment we withdraw forces, it is lost again

We will have to maintain thousands of troops in Fallujah to stop it from being retaken by the insurgency, who's numbers will more than likely be bolstered by this attack as Iraqis demand blood for the loss of loved ones. So, we rotate troops out of another city to maintain order in Fallujah, and then that city that is now unguarded is overtaken. Using Iraqi soldiers is pointless, as they are undertrained, underarmed, outnumbered, and many of them are actually insurgent double-agents or have no desire to shoot fellow Iraqis. The only possible way to maintain order in Iraq with the strategy they are embarking on is to send in more US troops, and that requires one thing to happen first....

Did I forget to close the windows, because it's feeling a bit drafty in here.

[JSJ]

81. it was and is not ours to lose, trooper!- give fallujah to the...

...'insurgents' as you so blithely call them- it will never be ours or the troops' or any other fuckingbody's. By the way, I prefer that they be called what they are- Freedom Fighters.

[NickB79]

88. Please don't misinterpret what I say

I don't want to sound like we own any part of Iraq whatsoever, nor do I want to blithely call the Iraqis we fight insurgents. It's just that I've argued with Freepers at work for so long that I've come to use that word rather than freedom fighter since it is less inflammatory (I've already made enough enemies there as it is because of this stupid war). I made the mistake of calling them freedom fighters once, and equating what they're doing to our American Revolution, and the shitstorm I endured lasted weeks.

It's good to know that I can finally call them what they really are here :-)

[JSJ]

89. okay- sorry, if i sounded harsh

[RummyTheDummy]

80. News flash: Not my problem

I voted for Kerry.

(THat felt good)

[HereSince1628]

84. Our choice of bus driver lost, but we are still on the bus

Then again maybe you found someone in Canada to marry you

[RummyTheDummy]

85. Bullfeathers

Let them clean up their own shit pile. The "we're all in this together" argument doesn't wash with me. Sorry.

[HereSince1628]

86. I don't feel "all in this together" I feel trapped on the damn bus

If we were talking about a bad remodelling job on a house I'd agree with you...they could live with their own mess.

But this, in these next 4 years they will try to roll back every piece of progressive legislation, including many parts of the Bill of Rights.

I for one, am not sure I want to sit back and let them do that. The consequences could be as bad for our nation and the world as anything we saw happen in Europe from 1900-1950

[killbotfactory]

82. I tried to stop this shit...

You reap what you sow, America.

[info being]

115. Right on! I'm not losing any sleep.

[ausiedownunderground]

90. Forget the "sham" election, lets talk Fallujah tactics!!!

OK People, we know American Democracy sucks!! - Can't you people ask the Europeans or the New Zealanders or even us Ozzies for advice on how to actually run a proper fair democratic election where the whole population actually accepts the result because the system used is actually Democratic!! You people need to actively work on seriously changing the way you conduct your "Democratic" elections. Thats why the world is laughing and taking the "piss" out of you!! Nobody here and i suspect even the Belarrussians take your election as seriously democratic. For a country that claims to be the leader of the "free world" your democractic system is a "Joke"!! WHY DO CALIFORNIA,iLLiONIS (i.e Chicago) (gOT'S THATS A HARD STATE TO SPELL) AND NEW yORK HAVE SUCH LOW ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES??? EVERYBODY OVER HERE KEEPS ASKING THAT QUESTION?. TO us in Oz it looks like what we used to have over here in one of our states called "Queensland". We called it a "Gerrymander" which meant that small rural "hillbilly fundie" areas had far more "political clout" per vote. One of their votes was worth five "City suburban" votes. We got rid of that problem in Queensland in the early 1990's.Of course that meant that Howard won our recent election, only just, but we have to accept it- which we do! The other serious problem you guys have is "your democratic right to choose whether you vote". In OZ we got over that 90 years ago! In Oz its compulsory voting or you get a "hefty fine". You vote or you pay!!! It works here!!
Anyway i'm over Oz's frustration with America's system of Democracy. Lets talk Fallujah tactic's, because to the rest of the world this is going to be "Very important"!!! To tell you the honest truth, the rest of the world is "rooting" for the Fallujan's. If they can inflict maximum damage on the Marines, then its like a "punch in the nose " for Bush,his family,every american that voted for him, Cheney,Rove,Harris and the "Neo-cons, ugly American business interests and lets leave the best for last - The Christian Taliban!!
Your an American commander whose been on the ground for a while. What do you do? Your a Guerilla commander in Falluja what do you do? Lets look at the opposing forces strength's and weakness's.
The american's strength's are their firepower.Air support and tanks,artillery and individual soldiers armaments and body protection. They feel "gung ho" and ready to "kick rag-head" butt! They are the Offense!They have "Special ops" laser targetting enemy positions".
Their weakness's are they don't know whether "Special ops" will get into the city successfully. They don't know how many Guerillas's are waiting for them. They don't know how much of the rubble is boobytrapped with plastic explosives. Their on the ground intelligence is likely to be very weak. The marines are "just young western kids" not used to "Suicide bombers" and extremely hardened "Jihadi warriors", controlled by men and "iv'e heard women, who fought in an extremely violent 8 year war with Iran which gave them maximum "kill the enemy" experience! and survive!
And last,is that the American public has just voted and you marines are all in whether you like it or not - Democratic voting soldiers are really going to enjoy this assault!!!
Now lets look at the Guerilla's side. America could "flatten" the city with B-52 carpet bombing if they wanted to. Every Iraqi dies or is seriously wounded. Good for "The red states" and Bushco, but i'm sure "the Blue states",the rest of Iraq and the rest of the world will not be happy. Whether that matters to "the red states and Bushco" is the problem that the Iraqi guerilla's face? Do we stay or do we leave? Personally, if i was a Marine commander "i'd ask the Air force to flatten it" before i sent my 19-25 year old's in.
If i was a Guerilla commander i would withdraw my best forces to fight another day. However i also have the advantage that i also have "jihadi forces" at my disposal and 380 tonnes of potential plastic explosive's to use. Leave and let the "Jihad's" who survive use that plastic explosive to be Martyred. End game is - the Americans take over a "pile of rubble" for Democracy, Iraqi's hate them more, more "jihadi fighters volunteer", the rest of the world hates them even more more and the guerilla's best fighters move on!!
What do you think tactical Democratic undergrounder's!

[reprobate]

100. Wherever did you get the idea that america is a democracy?

I know that was the popular fiction promoted by the power structure in order to control the masses, but surely any thinking person would see thru that to the truth.

If only we could all realize the truth of this we might have the chance to change things, but america has been too dumbed down to see, or even look.

The future is clear to those who can read. The dollar is under attack, the economy is descending, the deficits are rocket propelled. We are falling to third world status while the powerful couldn't care less, cause they have theirs and screw the rest of us.

A tear falls at the possibilities that was america, and what it has become.

[Frederic Bastiat]

92. Ain't my problem no more

Sorry but that's just the way I feel.

[drhilarius]

93. a "well timed" kick...

couldn't have those corpses ruin the "election", eh?

[Nihil]

103. Too many "beautiful minds" to protect

All those "holy", "virtuous" people, don't want to see the insides of
foreigners and the cannon-fodder now do they?

[ElectroPrincess]

95. We have two active duty USMC friends that will

most likely take part in that mission. Please don't place the blame on the poor bloody Marine infantry for all the needless killing, blame the OLD FAT MEN who send our precious young people to die for their greed.

That's been "the way" since the beginning of time.

[tuckessee]

108. Since your "poor bloody Marine infantry"....

are the ones actually killing these Iraqis I will blame them.

Merely being in the service does not absolve one of murder.

Your jarhead pals probably like to think of themselves as brave men because they've taken all the Corps can hand out and they've performed their duties in a combat zone.

But a real brave man does not commit murder.

A real brave man does the right thing, even it means incarceration, social ostracization or losing one's career.

I have no sympathy for your pals because they are either cowards or psychopaths for prosecuting this illegal, immoral war.

Maybe if we blamed the actual killers instead of whining about mysterious "old fat men" we could stop the carnage.

The soldiers are the tools the "old fat men" play with.

Take away their tools and there is no game.

The only reason things are "the way" you say they've been since the beginning of time is because we refuse to address the real problem.

They can't have a war if no one goes to fight it.

If a mafia hit team kills a mark and some innocent bystanders, would you say "don't blame those poor little hit men, instead blame the fat capos and dons and their political bosses"?

[info being]

116. Right on! Screw em.

[The Stranger]

98. Someone tell me again why we need Fallujah.

[maddezmom]

102. looks like in the world according to * - we don't

[0007]

104. Bring the troops home and knock off all this goddamn shit!

Can't 'ya see that Allawi is being used just as Saddam Hussein was.

Let all the religious men of cloth and the money lords fight this thing out.

[Malva Zebrina]

105. I can't get excited over a great battle looming

I can't get excited over seeing great machines, and huge bombs killing someone else and discussing what went wrong when we did not kill enough of them.

I cannot get all involved in the military good old boy , Marine camaraderie all wrapped up in some sort of delight in this club and we are expected to "support the troops" even though that makes no sense to anyone who opposed this war from the beginning.

I understand individuals but "troops" are a giant killing machine with an insane man as their CIC.

People have voted in a fascist warmonger. That is the fact that must be accepted now. There was little discussion of this war horror going on in our name during the campaign. It was my primary issue. I grieved daily for the lives lost , for the families , for the children for the babies and for the futility of it all.

But "support the troops" folks, won, and that meme came from the masters of Bush's Ministry of Propaganda as the slogan meme all wrapped up in another Bush's "you are either with us or against us"

However, it was not to be discussed or discarded by Democrats. Everybody bought it, and millions of yellow ribbons were seen all over cars, in spite of it's implications, because no one wanted the guilt on their shoulders o f the "Un American" attitude--after all to NOT support the troops meant treason or cruelty to those serving there--so we adopted the "support the troops" as our very own.

I will still grieve daily for the premature deaths of so many, many human beings dead due to our bombs and surperior military might.

Apparently, the people of the country chose to ignore this carnage or see a twisted righteousness in destroying this country and claiming all it's spoils as part of the war on terror and it is so sad to me.

Apparently, from what I read, 70 percent of the mililtary vote went to Bush, although I have not seen a source for that percentage.

[MacDo]

107. If 70%

of the people being shot at support what the country is doing, what does that say about us? Maybe, we are the ones who don't get it.

[Malva Zebrina]

109. that is the percentage that has been bandied about on DU forums

I don't know where it comes from or how true that is.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leesa]

139. Or else they aren't too bright.

Ethics are not a great mystery. Iraq did nothing to anyone, yet we invaded them and brutally murdered 100,000 of her citizenry.
Do you GET IT now??

[physioex]

113. I agree....

But I won't shed a tear...

[info being]

117. That's the way I felt all along. Never expressed it until now.

[young_at_heart]

121. "We should approach terrorism like the cancer it is"

That was the title of a LTTE in my paper today. It goes on, "If the Islamic terrorist plague is left unchecked it would consume the whole planet. Negotiation is fruitless; (like with cancer) it must be destroyed or contained". I believe this person thinks that we have no choice but to keep on bombing and killing....an "us or them" mentality seems to be the case!

[Catfight]

132. Yes, we should have stayed in Afghanistan and killed the cancer instead

of removing a leg on the body that wasn't infected...that makes perfect sense. How many times do people have to hear...."Iraqi's didn't cause 9/11!" who fucking cares..just kill anyone who has oil in their countries, that's the Bush junta anyway.

[leesa]

140. Afghanistan didn't do 9-11 either. A handful of criminals, primarily

from the Bush Crime Family did 9-11 and then conned you into invading Afghanistan for drugs and oil/gas pipeline

[bobaloo2]

119. A simple question

When the Soviets invaded and occupied Afghanistan and were murdering the local population, how did you feel when Soviet casualties were announced? Whehn Afghanis shot down Soviet helicopters? When the locals blew up a Soviet military base?

Why the hell should we feel any different now just because the occupiers happend to be born in the same country as us?

[peaches2003]

120. Sorry, but

I have little symapthy for those soldiers and their families that are Bush supporters and voted for him. You reap what you sow. The others who did not vote for Bush, I am truly sorry, but most of them were pretty silent in their opposition to the madman.

[skip fox]

122. How much heartbreak and pain are on the horizon?

All brought to you by W.


Damn. Very sad to see this coming and all the death on both sides.

[Senator Lamb]

123. we get

what we deserve. as a human being i feel sorry for all who must perish. but sometimes we must learn from our mistakes the hard way. so let it be written so let it be....

[Senator Lamb]

124. we get

what we deserve. as a human being i feel sorry for all who must perish. but sometimes we must learn from our mistakes the hard way. so let it be written so let it be....

[goforit]

136. Sorry guys.................we tried.

[tedzbear]

141. I doubt it.

After they carpet bomb the place there won't be much left to shoot let alone get shot by.

I think most of the insurgents have already slipped away to wait for another day...

This is just a PR charade to satisfy the blood thirsty, vengeful 51% of the American electorate who voted for the chimp.

But since nobody batted an eye at 100,000 dead, how will another 50,000 raise anyone's morale?

:nuke:

[leesa]

145. So be it. No sympathy. They swore to uphold the Constitution and they

are NOT doing it.