Casting Further Doubt (ANG DOCS)

[Radius]

snip

Emily Will, a veteran document examiner from North Carolina, told ABC News she saw problems right away with the one document CBS hired her to check the weekend before the broadcast.

"I found five significant differences in the questioned handwriting, and I found problems with the printing itself as to whether it could have been produced by a typewriter," she said.

Will says she sent the CBS producer an e-mail message about her concerns and strongly urged the network the night before the broadcast not to use the documents.

"I told them that all the questions I was asking them on Tuesday night, they were going to be asked by hundreds of other document examiners on Thursday if they ran that story," Will said.

/snip

If the documents are fake, the source will become the next issue. Will CBS expose the source?


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_040914-1.html

[Mistress Quickly]

1. Dunno, will Novak? eom

[Thor_MN]

32. He came damn close to saying they should on Sunday

but backed off when he was directly asked if he was advocating that CBS reveal their source. Nofacts needs to be put out to pasture, he's getting dementia as bad as the loons in the White House.

[leesa]

2. But that's not the point, is it?

The POINT is that he disobeyed direct orders and did not complete his tour of service.

[TryingToWarnYou]

45. Its a point IF and only IF the documents are genuine...right now...

Everything is speculative.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. No, only certain people are speculating. There is a difference, you know.

[TryingToWarnYou]

62. Yes, some people prefer facts and truth over rumor and innuendo.

[Demoiselle]

77. Not according to Killian's secretary....

She flat out asserted last night that the content of all the memos was accurate. WITNESSED to it. She speculated that the docs might be recreations based on the truth. Spit out that KoolAid!

[saracat]

3. I wish people would stop posting

this garbage, and I really wish the media would stop running it so they wouldn't have it to post sigh. Posting gives credibility especially to DUers who have no other news source. This is demoralising junk mail!

[jdj]

38. Everything you wanted to know about Will. She sounds legit.

There is a link to her resume on this page.

Maybe someone else will read over it and find something I can't. She is not on Open Secrets.

But she's in Raleigh, which is where all the NC operatives are...
I'd like to debunk her like they did with Lines, but her creds are really tight.

http://www.hgexperts.com/hg/ex_consultants.asp?action=page&pcomp=34146

[Radius]

47. I live near Raleigh

Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Durham etc are Democratic Cities. We have a Democrat Governor.

Raleigh also has federal courts here as well as the RTP which employs lots of people in the university and professional sectors.

[w4rma]

51. DemocratIC Governor (nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. Sounds like you have an agenda. Care to share what it is?

[Radius]

5. No Agenda

Just a huge fuck up in MSM.

Really no different than rigging Chevy trucks with model rocket motors to make them catch on fire if the tank ruptured.

Bad journalism and politics don't have to mix.

Not like I'm the first one who posted like material.

I will be happy to delete it if in is offensive.

[DBtv]

14. You know it is offensive and that is exactly why you posted.

Fucking bullshit.

[Radius]

48. I Do Not Write For ABC

If you don't like their content complain to them. Its not a drudge link or some right wing crap. It is MSM.

I am not the only one who posts on this and the truth as it unfolds has no agenda.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. The truth as it unfolds will reveal many things...

...but CBS lying about the docs is not one of them.

How old are you anyway?

[Radius]

70. Old Enough..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24633-2004Sep15.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24635-2004Sep15.html

To see a story falling apart. These docs came from microsoft word, IMHO.

Now the question is who forged them?

[0007]

54. You can have my watch and chain!

[tlcandie]

hehe .. Radius an agenda?!?!

:+

[Radius]

8. Fine

I have no objection to it being locked and deleted. Just sent this to the mod.

My post is LBN and has nothing to do with politics, just bad journalism.

If someone wants to kill it feel free.

[DBtv]

15. Exactly, you've made your point.

Not just bad journalism, bad trolling.

Fucking bullshit.

[Radius]

49. ESAD

There are at least 4 open threads on this. Watch who you call a troll.

Bitch to abc, not me.

[thebigidea]

65. watch who you call a troll?

Christ, all you'd have to do is search on your posts.

[Radius]

67. Echo Chamber

Look up Troll in this context and you will see that having differing opinion is not trolling. Nothing I posted was inflamatory or disruptive. I tend to stay OT.

You could post on the actual topic of the thread. But shoot the messenger..

[thebigidea]

69. Oh, I had no idea my posting had to be restricted to your parameters

I'll be sure to pay less attention to them in the future...

and if I need someone to defend atrocities in Iraq, assault weapons, or Hannity's talking points - I'll know who to turn to.

[Radius]

71. Gee

I just don't take anything anyone tells me for the god's honest truth.

I haven't defended anything only waited to draw conclusions.

This has nothing to do with politics, everything to do with bad journalism.

You post what you think. I'll do the same.

[thebigidea]

72. yes, how silly of me to think politics were involved on a political board.

[Radius]

74. OT..The story is the topic, I made no political statement.(NT)

[thebigidea]

75. Operating Thetan?

Er, sorry. The topic is whatever the thread evolves into, detours and all. If we were restricted to commenting on the initial post only, DU would be a far less interesting place.

Then again, I wouldn't call an exchange with you "interesting," so I'll just bow out here. I need to go inspect my font collection or something.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. Bad journalism is right.

By ABC.

[DrWeird]

39. Now now.

He hasn't mentioned how Kerry supports the war in this thread yet, let's not jump to conclusions.

[Radius]

73. you again

ad hominem or OT post? This is a NEWS forum. NEWS should be based in truth. When a major news organization publishes forged documents after being warned by an expert not to, that is wort mentioning.

I don't write news, only posted it. Draw your own conclusions.

[RapidCreek]

79. If I presented a document which stated "George Bush is the

President" and that document was signed by George Washington....what part of that news is untrue? A portion of it? All of it?

That is not to say that I believe "the documents" are forgeries. It really makes no difference if they are....as all of the things contained in them have already been substantiated.

RC

[Coconut Buddha Ape]

6. This is freaking awesome for Bush

Think about it, now it is in everyone's heads that "the memos are forgeries," or "some crazy anti-bush liberal nut-job" forges them."

All attempts to thusly discuss the realities of Bush's service have had the air let out of them as far as the average news consumer goes. I hate the media- liberal, conservative or otherwise.

[alcuno]

9. Not sure. The problem is that it keeps the Guard service issue going.

And I have to wonder where CBS got the documents; if they have another card to play.

[amber dog democrat]

11. How do we know Karl Rove is not behind this ?

I would not put it past him.

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

26. It's up to rove to prove he is not guilty of this

Just like it's up to those that believe the docs are forged to prove they are forged.

[amber dog democrat]

30. Rove does not have to prove anything.

You will never see his fingerprints on anything he does.
Whisper campaigns, character assassinations, or the unethical things he does.
He always has plausible deniability.
Even if I believe he is behind the Spin Boat Liars, I can't prove it....but its classic Rove.

This could be too. We will never have proof.
He does things by remote control and the puppeteer who manages the Chimp.
I put nothing past him. He stops at nothing to win and always attacks.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

12. Nah. Republicans like to believe this, but fact is, Bu$h is AWOL,

and everyone knows it, even the talking heads that are. The woman "handwriting expert" mentioned in this article is probably a GOP operative.

The only people that are buying into this forgery crap is Bu$h's base, and actually, the more publicity this gets, the more people will find out the truth that Bu$h is an AWOL DESERTER.

These memos are completely irrelevant to the fact that indisputable government documents prove that Bu$h, beyond the shadow of a doubt, DESERTED the military during wartime.

[henslee]

23. Agree. And the inept prosecution of war in Iraq seems to relfect someone

who was AWOL, someone who has no interest in military stuff. I think its going to be the war ANG families that turn this around. Their loved ones are dying for his lying.
on edit... gag, no it snot going to be the ANG families after the way I saw the applause * just got. WTF?

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

27. Everyone knows bush is awol just like they know the docs are real

Having one without the other is just like having none without either.

[yardwork]

31. I disagree. The documents may or may not be real, but W was AWOL

No question about that.

[Snellius]

42. There was no proof of Whitewater either

Throw around enough poop and eventually some sticks. Especially when everyone knows that, forgeries or not, the message is true.

[the Kelly Gang]

7. why are Duers posting opinions about an opinion ?

this stuff is more Sludge ..why is it on here ?

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

28. why are Duers posting opinions?

Please don't ever let DUers stop posting their opinions. That would really suck.

[the Kelly Gang]

44. granted..but this endless rubbish about a beat-up is too much

[Radius]

10. Bigger Picture

The alphabets are turning on one another. This is ABC going after CBS.

My interest is that news should be accurate and true. It should have no leaning.

Good news and good reporting are issues that should be important, IMHO.

I don't thing there is an a-political place to get the news anymore.

[Pax Argent]

17. A dedication to truth is laudable

I actually agree with you; the truth is the truth and I wish to see those who thought this was a good idea (presuming that they are forgeries, of course) strung up by their toes. If it was a Dem, they are worsening the situation by filling the news cycles with this bullshit, trivial story. If it was a Rethug, well......

Its a shame that this is occupying valuable airtime that could be used to explore the candidates' positions (yeah, right), or I'd like to see some of the big lies explored, like the laughable notion that Shrub actually did his duty. These memos are small potatoes.

Finally, why do you suppose that the other alphabet stations don't go after FOX with this kind of zeal?

[DBtv]

13. Thanks for spreading publican garbage propaganda!!!!

What the fuck is your point?

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

29. Wow. Posting ABC news clips is now considered pug propaganda?

What the fuck indeed.

[DBtv]

55. Disneyco is as publican as you can get.

Thanks for helping busholini inc destroy America.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radius]

68. Umm

How is linking to a MSM publication destroying america? You may want to take that up with the source..

[yardwork]

16. I googled Emily Will and there is more to this than ABC reports

Emily Will links a number of other forensic pages to her website, and one of them is not sure the documents were typewritten or not. Go here to read his report: http://xavier.xu.edu/~polt/bush.html

He also links the discussion about it on Daily Kos http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

Emily Will's website is here http://qdewill.com/index.htm?submit=Home

[Skittles]

18. WHO GIVES A F*** ABOUT THESE DOCUMENTS???????

WHY DON'T BUSH WORSHIPERS PROVE THE SOB FULFILLED HIS GUARD DUTIES???????

[yardwork]

20. Oh pooh! You're being no fun, skittles

This has been a fascinating story from the minute it began.

First, there was the story itself - reports of some of the missing information about chimpy's deeply suspicious absences from TANG and the holes in the record.

Then, before Dan Rather's voice had faded from the TV screen, there was a freeper who "just happened" to notice that the memos "didn't look typewritten," and his posts "just happened" to get picked up by the mainstream press, using what "just happened" to be identical (and incorrect) talking points, and splashed all over the world for days and days.

Then a bunch of us who used typewriters in the 1970s had a field day teaching youngsters and visiting freepers about how to center pages of type and create superscripts on typewriters.

At the same time, every source listed as a source by CBS news starts back-pedaling so fast they practically fell on their butts, while CBS held firm and released more documents, and the frenzy grew and grew.

Meanwhile, nobody has explained to me how a word processed document printed on any printer I've ever heard of can produce characters that jump up and down on the baseline like the ones in those CBS memos.

LOL! Days of fun, and we don't know anything more than when we started, except that some freepers are very well-connected to both Bush and the mainstream news media, and a whole lot of people are primed to read Kitty Kelley's book, because now the whole world is asking:

WHERE WAS GEORGE BUSH IN 1972 AND 1973 AND HOW COME THE PENTAGON CAN'T FIND ANY OF HIS RECORDS?

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

34. characters that jump up and down on the baseline

Ten+ generations of faxes and copies can cause all sorts of characters that jump up and down on the baseline.

[yardwork]

35. Prove it. I say it can't be done.

[Radius]

50. White collar Frauds

Go to jail every day for forging documents, it is a very old forensic science and it can and will be shown to be false or true.

[Skittles]

40. I served in the military almost 30 years ago

and I can still remember the names plenty of people I served with. What's wrong with this dumb f*** Bush that he cannot produce ANYONE who can say he fully served? HE JUST WASN'T THERE!!!!!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

36. No.

But I know exactly what you are up to here.

[TexasSissy]

37. You don't see the difference between the two situations?

Bush got preferential treatment. There is no doubt of that. He also did not fulfill his duties with the NG. There is no doubt of that. He received an honorable discharge. There is no doubt of that. Bush was not sent to active duty. There is no doubt of that. Yet Guardsmen who did not fulfill their duties were required to be sent to active duty. There is no doubt of that.

Ipso facto. Bush was not really honorably discharged, just because his papers say so. But I don't care about that. I don't think anyone does. It's the fact that he didn't fulfill his duties but has continually lied about it ever since, as well as denying he received preferential treatment.

Kerry - he saw active duty. There is no doubt of that. He did not receive preferential treatment in getting that duty. There is no doubt of that (active duty is, per se, non-preferential treatment). He received five medals. There is no doubt of that. He was honorably discharged. There is no doubt of that. There is nothing in Kerry's service record which would have required him to be dishonorably discharged.

[Skittles]

41. NO

that rich f*** had strings pulled to get him IN the Guard and he had them pulled to GET OUT too.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Panda1]

43. My sentiments exactly! The CONTENT!

Chimpy has NEVER accounted for his missing time. Facts reveal he was grounded and did NOT fulfill his requirements.
The White House has NOT denied the facts....just letting media whores spin the "fake document" angle.
Ask him to PROVE he served in Alabama!!!!

[truthisfreedom]

19. it's ironic that the secretary that would have typed them says they were

culled from the originals she typed, but not the original documents themselves.

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=827341&mesg_id=827341

[girl gone mad]

22. Regardless of whether or not they are forgeries,

the media's handling of this story has been completely irresponsible.

[NotTooSimpleSimon]

24. Should the media ignore whether the docs are real or not?

Or just look at the content - real or not?

[bemildred]

25. Basic PR.

Much better to argue about the memos than about what
the memos say. By arguing about the veracity of the memos,
which is easy to do, you can just make stuff up if you can't
find anything substantive, but either way you avoid discussing
the facts of Shrub's ANG service and cast doubt on the whole
story.

[funnymanpants]

52. Documents forged

Posters should stop attacking Radious for posting what looks like the truth. Why shoot the messagener?

I spend around 4 hours on Friday night looking at every angle of this story and came to the same conclusion as most of the experts. Although typerwritters existed at the time with the features in question such as proportional font and superscript, no typerwritter had *all* these features. That is why the freepers are offering something like 10,000 dollars to anyone who can produce the document using a typerwritter. On the other hand, MS Word can produce a nearly perfect copy. What are the chances that MS Word would have the same exact leading (space betwen lines) and kearning (space between letters) as a machine 30 years ago?

My guess is that someone knew the true story about Bush's going awol, but lacking a smoking gun, created one. This is why the White House didn't denounce the doucuments when they say them; they knew they were the truth. Only now it comes out that the docs are a crude forgery. It was really stupid of CBS not to do a better job.

[amber dog democrat]

60. But he was still AWOL

Don't over look that.

[On the Road]

61. "No typerwritter had *all* these features"

What feature ded the IBM Executive not have? As I understand, it's the most likely candidate.

I'd like to see someone find the right model and the right typeface and recreate the documents, too. The more backpedaling I hear from the experts, the more suspicious I become about claims that it must be a forgery.

[Bdog]

78. kudos on the freepers for discovering fonts

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603 We're going to make this simple.

First, of course, in order to do this, he first had to reduce the document so that the margins were the same, since the original PDF distributed by CBS is quite a bit larger. Then he superimposed the two documents, such that the margins on all sides lined up.

What he then discovered is that Times New Roman typeface is, when viewed on a computer monitor, really, really similar to Times New Roman typeface. Or rather, really really similar to a typeface that is similar to Times New Roman typeface.

Um, OK then.

You see, a "typeface" doesn't just consist of the shape of the letters. It also is a set of rules about the size of the letters in different point sizes, the width of those letters, and the spacing between them. These are all designed in as part of the font, by the designer. Since Microsoft Word was designed to include popular and very-long-used typefaces, it is hardly a surprise that those typefaces, in Microsoft Word, would look similar to, er, themselves, on a typewriter or other publishing device. That's the point of typefaces; to have a uniform look across all publishing devices. To look the same. You could use the same typeface in, for example, OpenOffice, and if it's the same font, surprise-surprise, it will look the same.

So kudos on discovering fonts, freeper guy.

Next, however: do they really match up? Well, no. They don't.

If you shrink each document to be approximately 400-500 pixels across, they do indeed look strikingly similar. But that is because you are compressing the information they contain to 400-500 pixels across. At that size, subtle differences in typeface or letter placement simply cannot be detected; the "pixels" are too big. If you compare the two documents at a larger size, the differences between them are much more striking.

For instance: In the original CBS document, some letters "float" above or below the baseline. For example, in the original document, lowercase 'e' is very frequently -- but not always -- above the baseline. Look at the word "interference", or even "me". Typewriters do this; computers don't. Granted, if you are comparing a lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high with another lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high, you're not going to see such subtleties. That doesn't prove the differences aren't there; it just proves you're an idiot, for making them each 12 pixels high and then saying "see, they almost match!"

"This typeface -- Times New Roman -- didn't exist in the early 1970s."

There are several problems with this theory. First, Times New Roman, as a typeface, was invented in 1931. Second, typewriters were indeed available with Times New Roman typefaces.

And third, this isn't Times New Roman, at least not the Microsoft version. It's close. But it's not a match.

For example, the '8' characters are decidedly different. The '4's, as viewable on other memos, are completely different; one has an open top, the other is closed.

So yes, we have proven that two typefaces that look similar to each other are indeed, um, similar. At least when each document is shrunk to 400-500 pixels wide... and you ignore some of the characters.

"Documents back then didn't have superscripted 'th' characters"

That one was easy. Yes, many typewriter models had shift-combinations to create 'th', 'nd', and 'rd'. This is most easily proven by looking at known-good documents in the Bush records, which indeed have superscripted 'th' characters interspersed throughout.

"This document uses proportional spacing, which didn't exist in the early 1970s."

Turns out, it did. The IBM Executive electric typewriter was manufactured in four models, A, B, C, and D, starting in 1947, and featured proportional spacing. An example of its output is here. It was an extremely popular model, and was marketed to government agencies.

"OK, fine, but no single machine had proportional spacing, 'th' characters, and a font like that one."

No, again. The IBM Executive is probably the most likely candidate for this particular memo. There is some confusion about this, so to clear up: the IBM Selectric, while very popular, did not have proportional spacing. The Selectric Composer, introduced in 1966, did, and in fact could easily have produced these memos, but it was a very expensive machine, and not likely to be used for light typing duties. The proportional-spacing Executive, on the other hand, had been produced in various configurations since the 1940's, and was quite popular.

(Note: However, it is not immediately clear that the Selectrics and Selectric IIs could not in fact emulate "proportional" spacing. There is skepticism in some circles that these memos really show "proportional" spacing. Looking at the blowups, it appears pretty obvious to me that there is, but still researching.)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

[Ravy]

63. *Sigh*, if only they had looked at the Niger fake documents with

such enthusiasm. Might have saved over 1000 brave US troops.

[Radius]

64. I thought the British

Later confirmed this as correct. I heard it on NPR relating to their (the Brits)internal invesigation of MI6. I don't have a link but will look around.

[rocktivity]

66. And how do we know that she wasn't "encouraged" to send that e-mail?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Cravat]

76. Times

Ok, so now the NYT is reporting that the documents were faxed from a Kinko's in Abilene. Can we not question the kids working there? I am willing to bet that they have sec cameras. What would it take to get them to review the cred card used to make payment? I have said it before but I would love to find one of Rove's boys faxing the docs.