CBS Plans New Memos Statement

[CatWoman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

(CBS/AP) CBS News planned Monday to issue a statement about documents purporting to show President Bush neglected some duties when he was in the National Guard more than 30 years ago.

The authenticity of the documents — four memoranda attributed to one of Mr. Bush's Guard commanders, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian — has been under fire since they were described in a Sept. 8 broadcast of 60 Minutes.

According to The Washington Post, the network plans to say it was misled about the authenticity of the documents.

The New York Times reports that CBS News officials met Sunday evening with anchor Dan Rather, the reporter of the contested story, to discuss the network's next steps.

CBS sources confirm that the network plans to issue a statement but would not comment on its content. Additional reporting on the documents dispute will air on Monday's CBS Evening News.

It was not clear if the network planned to apologize, the Post reported.

[molly]

1. This will be interesting

someone on one of the Sunday talk shows said Rather would lost his job. I don't think so....

[Nederland]

50. That was Andrew Sullivan

...on the Chris Matthews Show

[PROGRESSIVE1]

87. Sully still shilling for *!!! Sully is an Uncle Tom to the Gay Community

:puke:

[Seabiscuit]

131. CBS should stand behind Dan Rather

Already the right wing bobbleheads such as Wolf Blitzer on CNN, and others on MSNBC and FOX are putting out the question: Is CBS making Dan Rather its scapegoat? I can't friggin' believe it. They're actually using the word "scapegoat", those filthy bastards.

CBS needs to send an urgent release to all of these despicable TV and cable channels to stop it immediately, to state clearly they stand behind Dan Rather 100%, that their investigation is ongoing, and that despite whatever problem they may have had with their sources autheticating the documents in question, as Killian's secretary has already stated clearly, the contents of the documents was accurate and true.

CBS and Rather BOTH have to go on the offensive against these cretin media outlets, and not let them get away with their character assassinations.

They should refocus on Bush's record in TANG, and the questions surrounding it as well. They need to be forceful, not only on defense, but on offense, in framing the issues, and not allow these right wing pigs to continue to frame the issues.

Bury the media in press releases and interviews.

[Seabiscuit]

132. Final question

Are John Dean and Dennis Kucinich the only leaders, whether political or in the media with balls any more?

This country has gone to the dogs. Where are the real spokespeople for the citizens?

Dan Rather is getting crucified in the media and CBS and Rather and numerous other media people and politicians need to start speaking out forcefully against this public lynching and go after Bush's jugular full force.

[Seabiscuit]

133. Final question

Are John Dean and Dennis Kucinich the only leaders, whether political or in the media with balls any more?

This country has gone to the dogs. Where are the real spokespeople for the citizens?

Dan Rather is getting crucified in the media and CBS and Rather and numerous other media people and politicians need to start speaking out forcefully against this public lynching and go after Bush's jugular full force.

[Seabiscuit]

134. Final question

Are Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich the only leaders, whether political or in the media with balls any more?

This country has gone to the dogs. Where are the real spokespeople for the citizens?

Dan Rather is getting crucified in the media and CBS and Rather and numerous other media people and politicians need to start speaking out forcefully against this public lynching and go after Bush's jugular full force.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. then end of any critical medai of bush is upon us

[cspiguy]

3. the issue is not CBS. It was who was responsible for trying to screw up

this election with nationally broadcast fraudulent documents that ultimately --- undercut --- legitimate arguments against *'s war record. Think who really benefits from this farce. It must have been planned to break open just like it did.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. The documents haven't "undercut" anything in regards to FratBoy's....

...TANG record. I couldn't force myself to use your phrase "war record" since it is very clear, even to a babbling idiot, that the closest FratBoy has ever been to a war are documentaries on the History Channel.

The truth remains that FratBoy was AWOL at the very least, and most probably a deserter, during a period of time when Americans were still dying in Vietnam. That is IRREFUTABLE. Period.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wickerman]

4. So, will this statement then become the lead for the day?

Thereby stealing the thunder of a terrific Kerry speech in NY today? The media needs to report the news, not make it.

[0007]

34. Oh God, what a speech he was! Kerry is almost making me

feel like a proud American again.

Kerry in a landslide.

[leQ]

104. faux is having multiple orgasms today

they are truly beside themselves. cnn/msgop are havin a helluva time keepin up. it's like nothing else matters. so for the rest of the day, i got tvland on.

[Seabiscuit]

138. For well over a decade now the media

has been making/fabricating the news, and *not* reporting it. This is nothing new. The only thing that's changed is the brazenness and shamelessness in the way they go about it since Bush stole the election.

[MrSandman]

143. Unfortunately, yes...

Judging by the mid afternoon cable channels
:puke:

[NSXBill]

5. As I said in the other thread...

It is going to come out that Max Clelan gave the docs to CBS...What are we going to say then?

[Tempest]

6. Who's Max Clelan?

The documents were faxed to CBS from a Kinkos in Abilene, Texas.

Can you place Cleland in Fort Worth on the date the documents were faxed?

The real culprit is Burkett.

[NSXBill]

11. Max Cleland

is the triple amputee former Senator from Georgia who is working for the DNC now. It is being reported that Bill Burkett told a group of Texas Democrats in a mailing list that he had given Max documents to counter-attack the Swift Liars. It is implied that he is the "unimpeachable" source from CBS. CBS then simply got the documents from Burkett for sure, but it was Cleland who gave it credibility for CBS to run with it...so the story goes

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. CBS has been working on this story for five years...

...are you trying to tell me or anyone else that CBS didn't already have these documents and more "unimpeachable sources" than just Max Cleland? Give me a break.

I seem to also recall that Rather stated that the CBS lawyers were all over the documentation before they would allow it to go on the air.

[NSXBill]

40. No...I'm just wondering what the response will be if

Cleland is at least one "unimpeachable source." It seems like this could be devastating if it starts getting coverage...or worse if it is provable.

[DulceDecorum]

46. GREG PALAST SAYS:

THE LYNCHING OF DAN RATHER
ON BRITISH TV, DAN FEARED THE PRICE OF "ASKING QUESTIONS"
Monday Sep 20, 2004
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=17701

Indeed, Dan is in hot water for a report my own investigative team put in Britain's Guardian papers and on BBC TV years ago. Way back in 1999, I wrote that former Texas Lt. Governor Ben Barnes had put in the fix for little George Bush to get out of 'Nam and into the Air Guard.

What is hot news this month in the USA is a five-year-old story to the rest of the world. And you still wouldn't see it in the USA except that Dan Rather, with a 60 Minutes producer, finally got fed up and ready to step out of line. And, as Dan predicted, he stuck out his neck and got it chopped off.
Is Rather's report accurate? Is George W. Bush a war hero or a privileged little Shirker-in-Chief? Today I saw a goofy two page spread in the Washington Post about a typewriter used to write a memo with no significance to the draft-dodge story. What I haven't read about in my own country's media is about two crucial documents supporting the BBC/CBS story. The first is Barnes' signed and sworn affidavit to a Texas Court, from 1999, in which he testifies to the Air Guard fix -- which Texas Governor George W. Bush, given the opportunity, declined to challenge.

And there is a second document, from the files of US Justice Department, again confirming the story of the fix to keep George's white bottom out of Vietnam. That document, shown last year in the BBC television documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes," correctly identifies Barnes as the bag man even before his 1999 confession.

At BBC, we also obtained a statement from the man who made the call to the Air Guard general on behalf of Bush at Barnes' request. Want to see the document? I've posted it at: .

Article available at:
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=17701

And also at
Greg Palast's blog:
http://www.gregpalast.com/blog.cfm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Nice post! Thanks!

[NSXBill]

14. Whoops. Cleland. sorry

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Burkett's not a "culprit" any more than was the author of "Fortunate...

...Son", J. H. Hatfield, who was later found dead of a "suicide".

Do yourself a favor and do some research on Burkett before you start maligning the man.

[Tempest]

18. Burkett set himself up for criticism

If the documents originated from Burkett, and evidence suggests they were, then he brought this upon himself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. And you know nothing about the validity of the documents...

...at this point in time, do you?

[Tempest]

25. Neither do you

Yet you've convinced yourself of their authenticity.

Do yourself a favor and lose the attitude.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. I've convinced myself that people that I've trusted in the past...

...would be capable of doing their homework before releasing information to the public.

You don't like the "attitude"? Awwww...too bad, get used to it.

[RivetJoint]

41. Not this time

Rather screwed the pooch on this one. And he hurt Kerry. This took up WAY too much time and drowned out way too much of Kerry's message. The sooner Rather admits he was conned, the sooner we can get back to Kerry getting his message (jobs, health care, end of the war) out there.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. He didn't hurt Kerry at all. Where are you getting THAT from?...

Please explain your reasoning on this issue.

[RivetJoint]

48. Because it took attention

away from Kerry's message and focused on this stupid non-story. Perfect example of diverting one's attention from real issues. PLUS it makes Bush appear to be the victim of a Rather vendetta.

BOTH of those hurt Kerry. Especially the first one.

[Tempest]

53. You're exactly right

But some people will never admit to it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. You're stating your personal opinion on this issue, nothing more....

...and I'm stating the opinion that this will be an inconsequential issue within a week's time.

In fact, if people weren't looking at FratBoy's military issue before now, there is a good chance that they are now. Regardless of whether or not these documents were forged, the fact remains that FratBoy was at least AWOL at a time when Americans were still dying in Vietnam.

[RivetJoint]

63. It's not an opinion, it's a FACT

The time consumed by memo-gate took away from time spent on REAL issues. That's a FACT.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. You have an interesting definition of the word "fact"...

...I doubt that Webster's agrees, but you're welcome to your own opinion.

[RivetJoint]

70. It is a fact

Time is finite. Spend time on one thing. Less time for another. Look it up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. Where's your documentation to support your OPINION that people...

...were diverted from the message of the Kerry campaign? Are you getting this from the media? Is it a gut feeling? Did you attend a seance? Are you hearing voices? Do you see dead people?

Quite frankly, you've convinced me that you have no FACTS to back up your rather interesting comments. None at all.

Even your definition of "fact" is out of whack.

[RivetJoint]

76. Once again

Time spent on memo-gate is time subtracted from Kerry's message. Get it?

Your man Rather is an idiot who got duped. I hope CBS fires his sorry ass. Thanks to his incomptence, it will now look to some that the media can't be trusted to report anything negative about Bush; that if they do say something negative, it's because they have a vendetta. If this was a Rove trap, that moron Rather walked RIGHT into it. He totally ruined CBS' credibility in reporting on Bush's (non)service record.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

85. Excuse me, but CBS backed Rather's report and employed four....

...different lawyers to ensure that the facts checked out. They're not going to fire Rather because Rather will break their balls in court. You can bet your bottom dollar that Rather understands the phrase "CYA documentation"...and you can also bet that Rather knows where a lot of bodies are buried.

I will say that you seem to have betrayed a great deal of personal animosity toward Rather...what seems to be the major issue with you and Dan?

And no, CBS's credibility was ruined quite some time ago by their association with CIA operations to include Operation Mockingbird. Unlike you, I will actually supply a link so that you can actually read what I'm telling you:

Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation
<http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_01_03_03_mockingbird.html>

Excerpt:

Starting in the early days of the Cold War (late 40's), the CIA began a secret project called Operation Mockingbird, with the intent of buying influence behind the scenes at major media outlets and putting reporters on the CIA payroll, which has proven to be a stunning ongoing success. The CIA effort to recruit American news organizations and journalists to become spies and disseminators of propaganda, was headed up by Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, and Philip Graham (publisher of The Washington Post). Wisner had taken Graham under his wing to direct the program code-named Operation Mockingbird and both have presumably committed suicide.

Media assets will eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society.
--------------------------------------
And here's another article...

A Report on CIA Infiltration and Manipulation of the Mass Media
<http://www.geocities.com/cpa_blacktown/20000318mediaoverb.htm>

Excerpt:

CBS: CIA Broadcasting System?
Bernstein asserts that a good relationship between former CIA director Allen Dulles and former CBS president William Paley (CFR) made the network the CIA's most valuable broadcasting asset. "Over the years," Bernstein writes, "the network provided cover for CIA employees, including at least one well-known foreign correspondent and several stringers; it supplied outtakes of newsfilm to the CIA; established a formal channel of communications between the Washington bureau chief and the agency; and allowed reports by CBS correspondents... to be routinely monitored by the CIA."

Paley chose Sig Mickelson (CFR), president of CBS News from 1954 to 1961, as his liaison with the CIA. Mickelson (who went on to become president of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty) recalls complaining about having to use a pay phone to contact the CIA, and later installing a private line that bypassed the CBS switchboard for this purpose. A CBS investigation of his files revealed that he was involved in passing on CBS film and outtakes to CIA officials in exchange for payment and that he regularly forwarded copies of CBS' internal newsletter to his CIA handlers. The same investigation revealed that two CBS employees -- stringer Austin Goodrich and Frank Kearns, a network reporter from 1958-1971 -- were undercover CIA operatives.

Mickelson has discussed his CIA activities with Bernstein and others. "When I moved into the job I was told by Paley that there was an ongoing relationship with the CIA," he has recalled. "He introduced me to two agents who he said would keep in touch. We all discussed the Goodrich situation and the film arrangements. I assumed that this was the normal relationship at the time. This was at the height of the Cold War and I assumed the communications media were cooperating -- though the Goodrich matter was compromising."

Mickelson's successor Richard Salant says he continued some of these practices when he took the CBS helm. "I said no on talking to the reporters, and let them see broadcast tapes, but no outtakes," he explains. "This went on for a number of years -- into the Seventies."

[TryingToWarnYou]

100. Jesus H. Christ...what part of Bill Burkett has acknowledged that..."

Do you not understand?

CBS said former Texas Guard official Bill Burkett "has acknowledged that he provided the now-disputed documents" and

"admits that he deliberately misled the CBS News producer working on the report, giving her a false account of the documents' origins to protect a promise of confidentiality to the actual source."

There you go again with the 4 lawyers bit... Thats called a FALLACY where I come from. Maybe its the same 4 lawyers Kitty Kelley is using? LOL.

[RivetJoint]

103. LMAO

Sorry Media. Your credibility is now on the same level as Rather's and CBS'.

Keep sticking to your "the memos are authentic" meme; you're the only one who believes it.

BTW, GREAT link. Proves that since something happened 30 years ago, it MUST still be happening today! LMAO

[Streetdoc270]

109. Don't fall into the wording trap.

Keep sticking to your "the memos are authentic" meme; you're the only one who believes it

The Memo's are a re-creation of an actuall memo Killians secretary has already told every one that in her interview. She said 'I did not type that memo BUT, the content is similer to memo's that I did type'. The Conservitive spin machine wants to take (and has succeded in) taking the focus from the content and has focused the people on the 'faked memo' theory. So we can infer that the actuall memos were a part of the file and most likley part of the 'cleaning' of Bush's file. The memos are a reprint of the real thing. Thats the message that needs to be heard. It should also be noted there was not half this news about the forged documents that provided the basis for the Invasion of Iraq!

[Dorian Gray]

83. A point....

I have quite a few undecided friends in this election, believe it or not. One was over this weekend, talking about this very topic. He said, "More time is spent on this Dan Rather thing than any other topic. I'm sorry, though, it's obvious that he hates Bush."

Now, I disagree 100% with that statement, and I argued with him for a long time about Dan Rather's hatred of Bush. But, he's an undecided voter who is spending too much time thinking about the "media" conspiracy against the incumbent President.

So, this story is getting more public attention than any speech Kerry is making right now, and that is not helpful to the election of John Kerry. Fact? Maybe not. But very educated hypothesis based upon the people I know.

[RivetJoint]

84. If even ONE person

says that "memo-gate" has taken his/her focus away from Kerry's message, that FACT, proves the point.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

86. Opinion. Period.

[RivetJoint]

88. FACT

Are you saying that this has NOT taken ANY focus of what Kerry is saying?? Are you saying that not a single moment of broadcast time was given over to this non-story?

Can't you amdit that Rather got played?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

92. That's your opinion. Get over it.

[RivetJoint]

94. Media, it REALLY is a fact

No matter how you might wish it was not. Sigh. I have to give it to you for hard-headedness.

[freeplessinseattle]

130. can't you just agree to disagree??

[Hilary08]

111. Thanks, you're the reason Kerry will probably lose.

It's the same reason Howard Dean got canned in the beginning of the primaries.


It's the reason people like Dean and Gore will NEVER make it to the WH, it's the same reason why Clinton was in there twice.

When you just want to satisfy your Shrub hatred, even if the basis is forged memos, you lose considerable ground. Sure, if the story had never ran we'd still have no out-and-out tangible proof, but over half of voters KNOW or suspect Shrub weaseled out of his obligations. But now, he's being seen the target of "desperation" from "them there pesky Democrats." in the eyes of the American public.


I hope it was worth it. I hope whatever little satisfaction you got from the memos is worth hearing Kerry's concession speech on Nov. 3rd.

[Hilary08]

112. Exactly.

....I still can't believe the ONE issue that makes Shrub look favorable, has been the main focus for the past week. EVERYTHING else makes him look bad. Iraq, bad. Economy, bad. Healthcare, bad. CBS... GOOD!

The massive stupidity of CBS. And Repugs are already floating around that the DNC had a hand in this, if so.......I'm almost afraid to imagine.

[ilovenicepeople]

137. Butter.........

Parkay

[TryingToWarnYou]

91. Are you really this obtuse?

If the news is playing the fake memo story day in and day out, when are they going to have to time to showcase the Kerry message? And if you compare how much story time Kerry got to how much the "fake" memo story was on, then maybe you understand.

Nobody in a week, or any other time frame, is going to sit there and recall what the truth of the matter might be...all they are going to recall is that these were fake claims against Bush.

You have an annoying habit of backing anything, regardless of how wonky, as long as its against Bush and you seem allergic to any form of critical thought on the issues brought forth. This situation, no matter how it goes now, has hurt the Dems and Kerry due to all the egg on the face of CBS and Dan Rather.

[Autumn]

122. Showcase Kerry's message?

I don't think i have seen the media showcase Kerry's message. I must have missed it and I am serious,no sarcasam intended.

[TryingToWarnYou]

144. No, youre right. They havent shown squat on his message

* is on there every night though...

As long as the media is focused on practically anything else, they dont have to pay attention to Kerry or his message. CBS did a nice piece on Kerry tonight though while making Bush look like the chump he is.

[rhite5]

89. No. This will help Kerry in a big way, I think.

A real issue here is censorship and intimidation of American media. THAT is extremely important.

This thing has not finished playing out yet.

Check that Greg Palast information before you draw any conclusions. It's been linked several times in this thread.

Let's see how this plays out.

[Tempest]

52. Polls say so

Read beyond the headlines in Zogby's polls for example.

Kerry's message has been lost, and that hurts him.

You must be drinking the same happy juice Bush is.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. Once again, you're stating nothing but your personal opinion that...

...Kerry's message has been lost.

I'm ignoring the rest of your comments because they bring nothing to the discussion but what appears to be your personal failings when involved in a discussion you can't win.

[RivetJoint]

67. Kerry's message has NOT been lost,

but it's been muted, as attention was focused on memo-gate for far too long.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. Oh, so now you're in a fallback position? Kerry's message was not....

..."lost", it was merely "muted"? Interesting.

So, tell me exactly who was focused on "memo-gate"? Do you have a percentage of viewers and/or the American population that suddenly found themselves diverted by this issue from paying attention to the message of the Kerry campaign?

Please...no opinions. Please link the facts that back-up your assumptions.

[RivetJoint]

75. Do I need to provide a link to you showing that

water is wet as well?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Are you going to answer my question or are you going to adopt...

...another evasive maneuver?

[RivetJoint]

82. What's your question?

I don't need to link to prove that 4-1 equals 3.

[PassingFair]

136. ...and just what the $%$(%*

IS Kerry's message. He's had over a year to get out his message. What the hell is it. These posts stink of DLC. Hang tough, Media. The bigger the sh*t storm, the more attention the AWOL issue gets.
I hope that Rather has mo' better stuff.

[Hilary08]

110. I wholeheartedly agree, don't listen to those who don't, they're clueless.

I said since the VERY beginning, whether true or not, Kerry and the DNC need to DISTANCE themselves from this. If the memos turned out to be authentic, they can later point it out. But if the memos turned out fraudulent (as CBS has now officially admitted) the damage is irreversible.

You KNOW if this were Clinton, he wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.


CBS should've just done an investigation and wrapped it up within 2 days. Then the story would've been over and done with, and other media outlets would be reporting other things, such as the thousands that are dying in Iraq.

EVERYTHING going on, except this one issue, makes Frat Boy look bad. But NOOOO, CBS had to drag this out, and focus on the ONE thing that makes Bush look better?!?!?! You know all the Repugs were all, "Whew, close one, Thank God It's Fraudulent!" I wouldn't be surprised if TGIF was now a WH mantra.


This is going to be an even steeper uphill battle now. And it's all thanks to CBS and those of you who encouraged CBS to "stand their ground." I hope it was worth it, I hope the feeding frenzy over the TANG documents was worth possibly costing us the election.

[freeplessinseattle]

135. CBS didn't drag it out

It was the naysayers that did, and what is wrong with CBS wanting to follow through to find the whole truth instead of leaving it open to more speculation? wouldn't it hurt Kerry more if the memo issue was unresolved and people didn't know the whole story and let their imaginations run wild?

[Tempest]

56. I don't have to get used to it

I can choose to ignore you.

You do realize you hurt your cause when you treat others with disrespect, right?

You sound a lot like the little kid who takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't get his way.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

90. So, you're putting me on "ignore", but I'm the one "running away"??....

You made the "juice" comment but I'm the one treating you with "disrespect"??

Very interesting spin-doctoring!

Wow...I bet Karl Rove could use your skills at double-speak!

[Hilary08]

113. I love this statement, in ONE statement Media_Lies_Daily is proved WRONG.

I've convinced myself that people that I've trusted in the past would be capable of doing their homework before releasing information to the public.

I don't have to tell you what the "W" stands for, huh?

This is the EXACT reason the Kerry Campaign is handling this entire issue wrong. Standing behind and/or referring to the CBS documents is only one of many, many mistakes on this path.


I would give my left ARM to have had Hilary running in this race instead...

[RivetJoint]

8. Where did you come up with that

brilliant revelation?

[Tempest]

17. Apparently from Burkett, although I can't find it

Bill made the claim in another thread that Burkett said he gave the documents to Cleland, but I can't find any mention of it.

The fact is the documents were faxed from Texas near Burkett's home.

Burkett is trying to pass blame and apparently is a coward for not owning up to his actions.

[SidDithers]

9. You forgot your /sarcasm tag...nt

Sid

[CatWoman]

13. moran!!

[Tempest]

60. Burkett admits documents were from him

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

[TryingToWarnYou]

95. Thanks a lot, Burkett you fucking idiot.....

I imagine Rove is sending him a "Thank you" card as we speak.

[Hilary08]

114. Shrub might even be learning HOW to write, to send a thank you note too.

nt

[Demit]

7. I damn well hope they don't apologize! Apologize for what?

Goddamn press, with all the unsubstantiated shit they run, flacking for this White House. Ted Koppel with his smarmy excuse of "well, we're just reporting, that's different from the truth".

Where was all the tut-tutting when Novack published the name of a CIA agent? Where was the call for his apology? Where's the press on pressuring him to reveal whether he's even been subpoenaed or not? Bah!

Dan Rather has balls and I hope he doesn't cave. And I hope the network of Murrow and Cronkite remembers its legacy and doesn't cave to this ridiculous, hypocritical pressure either. Maybe the NYT's story today on Bush's history in TANG will help refocus what the REAL story here was, and still is.

[RivetJoint]

12. They'll have to

apologize for putting fradulant documents out in the public domain and passing them off as real. They were had, and all the focus on this NON-STORY has taken away from the issues that do matter (the war in Iraq, job out-sourcing, the Patriot Act, health care, etc.) CBS screwed Kerry over by not exercising due diligence on this story.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. So, are you relying on the "unnamed sources" used by the NYT and....

...the WP to offer your strong opinion that the documents were fraudulent? What are you relying on to make such a strong statement? Where are your links to factual information that proves your point?

[Tempest]

24. What "unnamed sources"?

Killian's secretary said there were fake.

Is she an "unnamed source"?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. She didn't type them did she? She never saw them in the first place....

When I was in the military, "CYA" documents were prepared/typed by the individual seeking to document certain activities or lack of activities...they were never submitted to ANY of the support staff for typing, no matter how much they were trusted.

Therefore, she's not even close to being a "source", named or otherwise.

[Tempest]

57. When I was in the military for 23 years

No commanding officer typed up their own reports or memos.

Period.

[RivetJoint]

59. I did

I typed up ALL my own sensitive documents. Of course, I did them on a computer.

[Tempest]

66. Computer, but not a typewriter

I should have been more specific in my post.

No officer would use a typewriter that I knew of, not even me and I know how to type. Too easy to make mistakes, spelling and when quoting regulations.

Officers seemed prone to mistakes both inside and outside the office.

[RivetJoint]

69. HEY!

That last sentence is BS! :-)

BTW, as a young officer I used a typewriter ALL the time. We had six IBM Selectrix IIs and IIIs in the squadron. One of which was in my office. Granted, I had the commander's secretary type MOST things, but there were some documents I didn't want her to see.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. On this we agree. Sensitive documents were NOT to be seen by...

...support staff, particularly those of a "CYA" nature.

I was also an officer...Gunnery Officer aboard ship (try typing when you're doing 25-30 degree rolls!), and later a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer attached to the Marines at Camp Pendleton.

Later as a civilian I was under contract to a certain Navy office in the Pentagon...EVERY officer in that department did their own work which was heavily classified. "CYA" stuff in the Pentagon was the rule, rather than the exception.

[RivetJoint]

81. That's true

But there are still too many factual errors in those memos. Way too many.

[RivetJoint]

26. Look at yesterday's Washinton Post

Look at the side-by-side comparison. Look at the evidence which shows both the content and the mechanics of the document are obviously fradulant.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. Right. Whatever you say.

[RivetJoint]

39. Should be easy for you

to disprove the Post, then. Go ahead. Be my guest

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. You first....you're the one that claimed that that you could tell by...

...looking at copies in a newspaper that certain documents are fake.

By the way, are you a document specialist by trade? How many documents have you examined in your career and how many forgeries have you personally found?

As I'm always interested in learning from subject-matter experts, I look forward to reading your next post on this issue.

[RivetJoint]

55. Look at the Post

They do a nice side by side comparison that shows even the layman the problems with the Rather documents.

Also, as a retired Air Force flyer, I KNOW that the squadron commander does not issue a written order for ANYONE to take their flight physical BEFORE it is even due. We also don't use things like F.I.S. for FIS. We also know that it's an OPR not an OPTR. The document is full of errors that a Sq/CC would not have made.

The docs are BOGUS; even CBS admits that now.

[Qutzupalotl]

51. OK

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=841272&mesg_id=842781

I left out a word "not" when I typed this, but my criticism is valid. Newcomer is definitely lying.

[RivetJoint]

58. Can you tell me the title of that DU thread?

My computer will not open a separate window, so I have to go directly to the link you provided.

Thanks!

[Qutzupalotl]

73. It's called "A simple explanation for the Guard Memos."

started by yours truly in GD04

[RivetJoint]

77. Thanks!

[RivetJoint]

79. Your premise is interesting

but mere speculation. Sorry!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. Oh, brother! Incredible.

[RivetJoint]

96. What?

You are the one saying "show me the facts;" where are his?

Where's his proof that Burkett has the "original" memos?

[Qutzupalotl]

107. That's not what I claim.

I don't claim Burkett has originals. I don't know what he has.

What I do know is somehow Killian's signature got on documents that expressed his thoughts on the Bush matter, and could easily have been done by him on the typewriter used by his secretary.

By contrast, the computer "experts" who claim to have reproduced them "almost exactly" failed to account for the letters jogging up and down from the baseline...like a typewriter does.

[mdredmond]

64. You have it backwards

The documents are false until proven authentic. That hasn't happened - to the contrary, everyone and their brother (including the principals mentioned in the documents) seem to think they are false. Anyone who continues to claim that they are authentic will look as ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS as CBS does now. You aren't doing Kerry or yourself any favors by clinging to this vanishing mirage.

[Qutzupalotl]

108. Guilty until proven innocent?

That sounds backwards to me.

[Nederland]

115. No, false until proven true

Imagine what chaos there would be if we assumed that every document Rush Limbaugh and Drudge produced was true until proven false...

[Qutzupalotl]

117. The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation of forgery.

So far, all their efforts have fallen far short. There's also the little problem of the verified signature. Although Knox did not type the memos, Killian certainly could have, and likely did.

[Nederland]

119. Fallen Short?

According to whom? There isn't a single news organization anywhere that is now claiming that the documents are authentic. Not one. A week ago CBS was standing behind its reporting and asserting that the documents were real. Now they admit that they are not authentic.

Judging from this shift, I'd say those making accusations of forgery have succeeded 100%. The only place the accusations of forgery have failed is in a tiny minority of people on a small website called DU.

[Qutzupalotl]

120. That's not what CBS said.

CBS said they could not be verified as authentic without seeing the originals. That's a big difference.

Read Kos for a debunking of the so-called "experts" cited by the WP and AP. They don't know what they are talking about.

Even if I am alone, which I am not, I would maintain they are real until some evidence to the contrary arises. You don't have any, do you? Neither does anybody else.

See this thread for the likeliest explanation of the documents' origins:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=841272

[Nederland]

121. Missing the point

CBS has changed its stance from saying that its experts had verified the authenticity of the documents, to now saying that its experts cannot verify the authenticity of the documents.

Compare this statement, from September 15th:

CBS News is mounting a steadfast defense of the authenticity of documents that questioned President Bush's service in the Air National Guard, as newspapers and the White House continued to raise doubts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/15/politics/main643541.shtml

To this statement, from September 20th:

CBS News said Monday it cannot prove the authenticity of documents used in a 60 Minutes story about President Bush's National Guard service and that airing the story was a "mistake" that CBS regretted.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml


Obviously, that's a shift.

My point is that if those asserting forgery had "fallen short", why did CBS change their stance? The answer is simple. Those asserting forgery didn't fall short, they succeed in getting CBS to admit that airing the story was a mistake.

[Qutzupalotl]

123. CBS changed their stance because Knox said she didn't type them.

They haven't said Killian didn't type them, though. That may be why they don't say they are forgeries.

[Nederland]

124. Not just that

According to Dan Rather, CBS changed their stance because:

I find we have been misled on the key question of how our source for the documents came into possession of these papers. That, combined with some of the questions that have been raised in public and in the press, leads me to a point where-if I knew then what I know now-I would not have gone ahead with the story as it was aired, and I certainly would not have used the documents in question.

[Qutzupalotl]

125. Right.

He doesn't say the questions have validity (most of them do not); he just acknowledges they exist and that CBS is taking heat for it.

[Nederland]

129. Please

Are you saying that Rather believes the questions of the documents validity are invalid, but he's caving in anyway? Please.

What happened is obvious. Rather believed that the documents were authentic, but after every single other media group in the world looked at them and came to the opposite conclusion, Rather did the just and honorable thing: he admitted he had made a mistake.

I just wish people at DU had his courage and honor.

[Qutzupalotl]

139. Honor is in defending the truth.

Have you seen any evidence of forgery? Then why ask people to fall in line?

"Every single other media group in the world"--not competent experts, right? People interviewing people who claim to know something, but have been debunked. Please yourself.

[Nederland]

145. Wrong

The evidence of forgery is so overwhelming there isn't single forensic document expert who believes the documents are real. If there is, give me his/her name.

[Qutzupalotl]

147. James J. Pierce

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pierce1.pdf

There is no credible forgery evidence that has withstood scrutiny. If you have any, post it and I'll be happy to debunk it for you.

[Nederland]

149. Pierce isn't a professional

Pierce is not a member of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners. His opinion is no more authoritative than yours or mine.

[Qutzupalotl]

150. You should hold the critics to the same standards.

Have any members of the ABFDE weighed in on the documents?

I was able to deconstruct Newcomer's points at a glance. He doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's lying. But then, I was a typesetter for 20 years.

[Nederland]

152. I do

and when the panel of experts that CBS is putting together to review this story reveals that the documents are forgeries I'm wondering what you will say. I'm thinking you will still be sticking your head in the sand with the naive belief that the documents are real.

[Qutzupalotl]

153. I'm still waiting for your forgery evidence...

:shrug:

[Nederland]

154. Its everywhere on the web

I don't need to find it for you because you know exactly where it is. The difference is that you just don't find it compelling. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, you are virtually alone in that opinion. The fact is that CBS has backed away from its defense of the documents by now claiming that they cannot be sure that they are "authentic". Tell me, if there is no evidence of forgery, why did CBS back down? Why did Dan Rather admit that running the story with the documents was a mistake? You keep saying there is no evidence of forgery. If that were true, wouldn't CBS be standing by their original determination? How can you explain their behavior?

As for evidence, here is a partial list:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/politics/campaign/15guard.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/daily/graphics/guard_091404.html
http://qando.net/archives/004070.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18982-2004Sep13?language=printer
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/15/bush.guard.memos/index.html
http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm
http://peterduncan.net/CBS_Documents.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35531-2004Sep20.html?nav=hcmodule
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php
http://www.mrc.org/press/2004/press20040914.asp
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/09/bush.docs/index.html
http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_shape_of_days/2004/09/the_ibm_selectr.html
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/21/CBS.TMP
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_040914-1.html

[Qutzupalotl]

155. I already told you why CBS backed down.

The source changed his story about the origin of the documents, and they couldn't confirm it. They said nothing about being proven a forgery, only that there were questions.

As for your list of articles, are you saying you agree with every point they contain? Which points in particular convinced you they were forgeries?

Why hasn't the White House said they are inauthentic? They just claim not to have seen them, and that there are "lots of questions"--which is an evasion of the real question: Why did Bush miss his physical?

[Nederland]

158. No

I merely am trying to demonstrate that there is an enormous amount of evidence out there that suggests that the documents are forged. On the other hand, there is precious little evidence that the documents are authentic, which is why CBS and Rather finally decided that they could no longer objectively believe in them. What evidence do you have that the documents are real?

[Qutzupalotl]

160. Evidence supporting the documents

Rumors of forgery originated on Free Republic by a Clinton-hating lawyer named MacDougald. His arguments were quickly debunked (superscript, proportional spacing, etc.) here on DU and on Kos, but the media kept bandying about the "forgery" phrase until it stuck. In other words, the rumors had no merit of their own.

The typing appears to be done on a typewriter of the time.

The events described are accurate by Knox' account.

The signatures appear genuine.

[Nederland]

161. Question

The typing appears to be done on a typewriter of the time.

Which make and model are you referring to? What evidence do you have that Killian had access to one?

[Qutzupalotl]

162. There were several models that could do these things.

The IBM Executive and Selectric Composer were first suspected of creating the memos. Some have said at least nine models were capable of these features at the time. I belive Marian Carr Knox said her typewriter model was the Olympia (which I have not researched). She said it could do the superscript and had proportional spacing. The curled apostrophe was also available on these and other models. It was a single apostrophe, so to make a double quote, you would hit the key twice. Another key made an opening single quote. On the Selectric Composer, these were made by shift-period and shift-comma.

[Nederland]

163. Link

Do you have a link to prove this assertions, because frankly I don't believe them.

[Qutzupalotl]

164. Slight correction

I was wrong on this point--in a CBS interview (not on web), Knox said her typewriter did have a "th", but she did not say that it had proportional spacing.

Mrs. Knox also remembers having a mechanical Olympia typewriter with a raised "th" charadcter in those years, proof that all kinds of things like that existed. These memos were not typed on a mechanical typewriter, however.
http://www.mahablog.com/2004.09.12_arch.html#1095204040837

Thus, Knox' typewriter was not the one used for the memos. But the IBM Executive had both superscript capability and proportional spacing at that time:

"the IBM model executive, D Executive or the C Executive, did proportional type spacing. It also would do proportional spacing from line to line. And it also would do superscript printing for like the 'th,' which you could, you could have ordered. It wasn’t a standard feature on all the standard IBM D Executives, but if you wanted that key, you could order it."
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/glennon.pdf

Other known-good Guard documents in Bush's records from 1968 show a raised "th" in a different size from normal typing. This was done with a custom key as described above. This proves that the Guard used this "th" customization on their typewriters at least four years before the documents in question.

I have shown on my thread I cited that the up-and-down jogging of the letters makes it highly unlikely to be a computer-generated forgery, and in fact looks like a typewriter from the time period in question.

[Nederland]

165. Could not have been an Executive

The Executive worked on a fixed 1/32nd inch escapement mechanism, and so all the characters produced would be some multiple of 1/32 of an inch. Since the memo clearly displays a much more varied assortment of font widths, the Executive could not have produced it.

http://www.selectric.org/selectric/memogate.html

[Qutzupalotl]

156. Errors in NYT article

Linda James and Emily Will fell for the "superscript" red herring. Will is admitting that it wasn't common knowledge that 1972 typewriters could make a superscript and use curled apostrophes and proportional spacing. But Knox says the typewriter she used could do all those things. A forger would have to know those facts. Will and James were wrong in their suspicions, but the Times article leaves that point out.

Since those facts are uncommon knowledge, Will predicted thousands of people would raise those same questions, and they did. But those thousands of people only know MS Word and not old typewriter capabilities. Look at my avatar and you'll see one reason why it's not a Word document.

Sometimes the majority is wrong.

Few people have considered that these are the result of Killian's typing. It could even be his signature, but the handwriting expert would need the originals to fully validate the documents. CBS' error was in rushing the confirmation process, not, as you suggest, in using known forged documents.

[Qutzupalotl]

157. First WP page

Superscripting is not automatic on a typewriter. Thus the superscripted "th" would not necessarily have been used each time. A different typewriter was used, which should be obvious; the monospaced one is not likely to have had a superscript capability.

Stylistic differences in title, abbreviations and spacing are all accounted for if Killian did the typing, as I suspect.

[Qutzupalotl]

159. Quand0 is just beyond incompetent.

Typographical Arguments
1. Debunked. Knox said her typewriter could do it.
2. Debunked. Knox said her typewriter could do it.
3. Withdrawn.
4. Incorrect. Knox had a typewriter with a curled apostrophe where the straight one would go, so even Killian would use it.
5. Foolishly wrong. Not Times New Roman. Look at the lowercase i and capital Y. Is this guy incompetent, or what?
6. Absolutely wrong. See my composite (take out the space) at http:// members.ispwest.com/kbs/Photos/18Aug73composite.jpg
7. Centering is easy, and could be pre-printed, pre-typed or letterhead.
8. Unnamed sources (if Newcomer, definitely wrong).
9. Withdrawn. Get the right font ball and we'll talk.

Stylistic Arguments
1. If typed by Killian, he might not have known where letterhead was kept. He didn't usually do the typing, but was covering his rear in this case.
2. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
3. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
4. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
5. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
6. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
7. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
8. Easily explained if Killian typed it, for his own records.
9. Easily explained if Killian typed it.
10. Ever hear of BOHICA? FUBAR?

Personal Arguments
1. If Killian were covering his rear, he'd have backups of the memos Knox typed, in case hers disappeared. Guess what? They did!
2. As Knox said, they "have no way of knowing."
3. Killian was documenting the pressure he was under. Son's opinion is far from proof.
4. Killian not being a typist actually supports my proposition. He would make an exception to that if he were being asked to lie.
5. CBS has said that Staudt was a looming figure even in retirement. Free from UCMJ, he could use his influence for unethical things like asking for a glowing review.

Shall I go on?

[TryingToWarnYou]

101. Hey, unnamed sources were good enough for you with Kitty Kelley

Wow, look at you screaming for facts now...where was this side of you when we were discussing Kitty Kelley and her unnamed sources and lack of facts?

ROFLMAO.

You just won the hypocrite of the year award.

[TryingToWarnYou]

97. Apologize for using fake documents as real ones.... and..

Its about journalistic integrity. If he and CBS do not apologize, they lose even more credibility than they already have.

Burkett is the one that should be apologizing since he is the one that fucked us on this deal.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

10. "Unnamed sources". Gotta love it.

[Alpharetta]

15. Sweet. They are getting all kinds of publicity for tonight's show

They may make a statement about the quality of those documents.

The bonus: It will be easy for them to reiterate their underlying point that Bush got a stateside Guard slot and has NEVER explained why he failed to fulfill his obligation.

[Spoon]

20. Statement released over at drudgereport.com

EXCLUSIVE // Mon Sep 20 2004 11:58:02 ET
STATEMENT FROM DAN RATHER:

Last week, amid increasing questions about the authenticity of documents used in support of a 60 MINUTES WEDNESDAY story about President Bush's time in the Texas Air National Guard, CBS News vowed to re-examine the documents in question—and their source—vigorously. And we promised that we would let the American public know what this examination turned up, whatever the outcome.

Now, after extensive additional interviews, I no longer have the confidence in these documents that would allow us to continue vouching for them journalistically. I find we have been misled on the key question of how our source for the documents came into possession of these papers. That, combined with some of the questions that have been raised in public and in the press, leads me to a point where—if I knew then what I know now—I would not have gone ahead with the story as it was aired, and I certainly would not have used the documents in question.

But we did use the documents. We made a mistake in judgment, and for that I am sorry. It was an error that was made, however, in good faith and in the spirit of trying to carry on a CBS News tradition of investigative reporting without fear or favoritism.

Please know that nothing is more important to us than people's trust in our ability and our commitment to report fairly and truthfully.

[NSXBill]

23. CBS just said they were misled on documents

[Dorian Gray]

27. Damn CBS!

How could they cave in like that? They should have stayed strong! I feel betrayed!

[RivetJoint]

31. How could they, in the face

of overwhelming evidence, that the documents themselves, not their underlying premise, were fradulant?

[RamboLiberal]

30. Heard on Radio from wire report

CBS says source of documents admitted he misled CBS producer.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Dan Rather is going to come through this.

I know there's a bigger story behind those papers. First, the fact that they don't say anything that isn't true; and second, just who really did plant them? Let's get down to the Republican dirty tricks since they can cut their hair short and wear grey suits and ties, and they can genuflect as many times as they like, but that doesn't hide their corrupt, devious natures.

[Gman]

29. Rather will likely say that

the content of the memos is accurate and that Bush has yet to deny that he refused a direct order. Therefore, while the memos may not be authentic, what they actually imply is very true and Bush has yet to answer the charges.

[Kadie]

33. There is also the story they did with the secretary.

I am anxious to hear what Rather has to say on his broadcast tonight.

[Gman]

36. Specifically, the secretary confirms the truth about the content

of the memos and Bush has yet to deny it because he just can't be 100% sure there aren't some real copies floating around out there. Just like the DWI.

[bearfan454]

62. Damn right Gman

awol disobeyed a direct order. Bottom line.

[Seabiscuit]

142. Rather already said that on the last 60 Minutes show.

... and yes, he should emphasize it again tonight.

[progressivebydesign]

32. That's a shame... because the meat of the memos was true..

I'm sorry that someone had to recreate them to get a fucking news organization to report it. If the Pentagon and the WHite House were not HIDING documents, and the media ACTUALLY RESEARCHED these things, as they should, then this would not have happened.

Wonder if the White House will EVER respond to the lawsuit against them to release the documents.. they've taken a year already, and 'moved at a glacial pace' in response to the year-old FOIA request. We're being hosed.

God love Dan Rather... he tried, at least he tried. He will now be fired... Karl Rove and MacDougald have done their job.

[Demit]

43. Nah. Sounds like a deal was struck. Dan, suck it up & you can stay...

I'm still hoping he uses this part of the story to keep the interest going in the larger one. I believe he wrote that apology with gritted teeth. I still believe in him.

(AND the CBS lawyers, AND the five years they spent...)

[Gregorian]

45. Read today's Greg Palast. And remember- BARNES TESTIFIED!

http://www.gregpalast.com/

Is Rather's report accurate? Is George W. Bush a war hero or a privileged little Shirker-in-Chief? Today I saw a goofy two page spread in the Washington Post about a typewriter used to write a memo with no significance to the draft-dodge story. What I haven't read about in my own country's media is about two crucial documents supporting the BBC/CBS story. The first is Barnes' signed and sworn affidavit to a Texas Court, from 1999, in which he testifies to the Air Guard fix -- which Texas Governor George W. Bush, given the opportunity, declined to challenge.


Read the whole thing at Palast's website. This is OLD news to everyone BUT the fools in the US.

[CatWoman]

54. Story up on CBS News site

CBS Regrets Bush Memos Story

NEW YORK, Sept. 20, 2004

(CBS/AP) CBS News said Monday it cannot prove the authenticity of documents used in a 60 Minutes story about President Bush's National Guard service and that airing the story was a "mistake" that CBS regretted.

CBS News Anchor Dan Rather, the reporter of the original story, apologized.

CBS claimed a source had misled the network on the documents' origins.

In a statement, CBS said former Texas Guard official Bill Burkett "has acknowledged that he provided the now-disputed documents" and "admits that he deliberately misled the CBS News producer working on the report, giving her a false account of the documents' origins to protect a promise of confidentiality to the actual source."

The network did not say the memoranda — purportedly written by one of Mr. Bush's National Guard commanders — were forgeries. But the network did say it could not authenticate the documents and that it should not have reported them.

"Based on what we now know, CBS News cannot prove that the documents are authentic, which is the only acceptable journalistic standard to justify using them in the report," said the statement by CBS News President Andrew Heyward. "We should not have used them. That was a mistake, which we deeply regret.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

[rhite5]

72. Greg Palast provides interesting information on this.

Apparently authentic, unimpeachable evidence exists which substantiates the claims made in the disputed memo "copies".

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=371&row=1

Here are a few key paragraphs out of the middle of his piece, but the whole thing is worth reading:

What is hot news this month in the USA is a five-year-old story to the rest of the world. And you still wouldn't see it in the USA except that Dan Rather, with a 60 Minutes producer, finally got fed up and ready to step out of line. And, as Dan predicted, he stuck out his neck and got it chopped off.

Is Rather's report accurate? Is George W. Bush a war hero or a privileged little Shirker-in-Chief? Today I saw a goofy two page spread in the Washington Post about a typewriter used to write a memo with no significance to the draft-dodge story. What I haven't read about in my own country's media is about two crucial documents supporting the BBC/CBS story. The first is Barnes' signed and sworn affidavit to a Texas Court, from 1999, in which he testifies to the Air Guard fix -- which Texas Governor George W. Bush, given the opportunity, declined to challenge.

And there is a second document, from the files of US Justice Department, again confirming the story of the fix to keep George's white bottom out of Vietnam. That document, shown last year in the BBC television documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes," correctly identifies Barnes as the bag man even before his 1999 confession.

At BBC, we also obtained a statement from the man who made the call to the Air Guard general on behalf of Bush at Barnes' request. Want to see the document? I've posted it at:


on edit - link did not work from here. Use link at top of this post and it will get youto it.

[Bridget Burke]

99. The story of Bush's preferential treatment....

Both in getting into the Guard & avoiding punishment when he screwed up is still a powerful story. Let's see what Rather has to say.

If this were a 100% losing proposition, we wouldn't have so many disrupters here telling everybody to shut up & move on.

[Mr_Spock]

102. Here here - tell it like it is. Stupid hand-ringing disruptor's.

What a waste of time for these fool to be arguing about memo's when the fact that the memo's are even an issue is being ignored. Why are the memo's not important? Because Dumbya has yet to defend himself in any meaningful way on this issue - meaning he is guilty and just hoping the PROOF of his malfeasance will go away. The essence of the sad truth for AWOL remains though and people WILL remember this.

[neomonkey]

106. <SIGH> :(

We bemoan the media for lulling the sheople into non-issues such as whether or not Idiot King's draft papers are genuine as opposed to the well-documented content of the memos, then we turn around and start agonizing over the same immaterial minutiae on this board.

[AntiFascist]

116. At least....

CBS Evening News should have stellar ratings tonight, then we may hear some other important news for a change.

[HEyHEY]

118. This shit could well have cost Kerry the election

fuck

[bobbyboucher]

126. How?

I doubt it.

[Mr_Spock]

141. What?????? Go away with this crap.

Go look at the Lou Dobbs poll: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

Whom do you think the retracted CBS story damaged most?

Dan Rather
Sen. John Kerry
President Bush

Rather - 61%
Kerry - 11%
Bush - 28%

[HEyHEY]

148. How?

Because, this makes Bush look like a victim of slander, which could get him loads of sympathy, as well, now the media will be extra careful and may not even run some stories for fear of them being misleading as well. Add that with the fact the Swiftboat vets haven't been attacke enough - it all looks good for Bush.

[RareLubbockDem]

146. unfortunately

i just told my wife the same thing

[n2mark]

127. Geez...

Quit the arguing regarding the docs., quit blaming... Let go... doesn't matter anymore. You are just feeding into the frenzy of the media.

THERE IS AN ELECTION DAMMIT!

You want four more years or four new years? That is up to you and I!

[robbedvoter]

128. So, who was AWOL then, Rather or W?

One more time for all the visiting freepers:

[Catfight]

140. If Burkett states he didn't forge them, then who did and why? n/t

[PATRICK]

151. LTTE's to all media

What further need we of proof of the open incompetence of admittedly lightweight TV journalism? Does it ever bother people that good journalism would involve the simple googling of references, minimal digital legwork since we amateurs are capable of little else- except also the thousands of contacts we have scattered throughout the nation and world. We know how badly they do the job we have no access to. We know how poor their memory is, their checking, their imagination, and their pig headed self ingratiating repetitive drone of opinions set in concrete as they throw us into the river of history, our feet imbedded in lies.

Parlock happened three times without anyone checking? LTTE's which can be scanned by any editorial staff worth, their salt have to be vetted as chain letters from the RW parrot jungle.

Rather than pointing out each and every gaffe and filling in their insufficiencies at some point we have to shake the dust off our keyboards and go to the alternate media. They have not earned any credibility for their sage neglect of reality, nor any admiration for partaking in the decline of resources and standards in the profession they bring disgrace upon. Old time experience makes it much worse, a senility, a hardening of the information flow arteries, responding only to weird fears and "upstarts", schmoozing with flatterers and the rich, rich and content with anything so long as they personally can amble on unopposed.

You the media have been turned into common propagandists, gape mouthed drooling idiots, complete fools tricked by sniveling liars, bullied by people who toss dreaded statistics or "revelations" at you you know you can't and won't evaluate. Your routine ceremony of myth and constantly repeated story lines have been easily manipulated and you cheerily and with gusto take part in criminal exploits leading to murder, fascism, the rape and looting of America and this to the utter scorn, opposition and derision of every other nation of the world.

Are you all some bunkum radio host ruling his little corner of Kansas, herding his trusting fans into some comfortable fantasy that needs no connection to reality other than where the bucks come from? Blind guides.

Murder, lies, treason. All these have sprung in the cracks, the bare spots created by corporate degeneration of the news, by personal betrayal, laziness, self-satisfied and spitefully, smugly defensive incompetence. Most of you have or will join the liars. Like the drunken sheriff in "The Garden of Evil" there is nothing left of most of the "esteemed " media except a bloated fat man rolling in a ditch.