Dean Leans Toward Supporting Cuban Embargo (WTF????)

[guajira]

I expected Dean to stand up for the American people, but looks like he's just one more panderer to MiamiCubans.

Considering that most Americans want the embargo and travel ban against Americans to end, why doesn't Dean pin B* to the wall on this issue?

snippet:
SPOKANE, Wash. - As he surges to the top of the race for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination and begins to think about a potential contest against President Bush, former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean says he is shifting his views on the trade embargo with Cuba.

Speaking to reporters during a four-day national campaign swing, Dean said he supports rolling back the embargo in order to encourage human-rights advancements -- but citing Fidel Castro's recent crackdowns on dissidents, says that in recent months he has become convinced that ``we can't do it right now.''

Dean called Cuba a ''political question,'' and said that recent developments on the island would prevent him from his goal of ``constructive engagement of Cuba.''
more.....

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6618815.htm

[bleedingheart]

1. a lot of americans wouldn't be able to locate Cuba on the map

and the remaining ones would not care either way. this is to appease the cuban american voting bloc in Florida.... its a political move.

Castro is old.. When he finally passes on to the big communist state in the sky it will all be moot anyways in my opinion.

[Kbowe]

67. I just tore up my "Dean for President" button.

I will not support him now. Have to start all over again.

[Larkspur]

69. Decisions based upon temper tantrums indicated a shallow

grasp of the situation.

Dean's position changed because the situation in Cuba changed. Castro cracked down on dissidents and violated human rights. That does deserve a response.

[Say_What]

72. *dissidents* my a$$--they were paid by the US to

overthrow their government. If we did the same thing here we could spend 10 years in jail. All pols PANDER to the anti-Cuba mob who is largely responsible for installing the Weasel in the White House--it's been going on since JFKs time.

[Say_What]

73. Decisions based on ignorance indicate a

lack of facts to come to a logical conclusion about what actually goes on in Cuba. For decades Uncle Sam's wet dream has been to overthrow the Cuban government. There has been no limit to the amount of funds to try to accomplish that. Here's USAID's funding for May, Google Cuba +NED for more FACTS.

<clips>
USAID/Cuba Program
May 2003

1. Freedom House: Transitions ($500,000 - completed)
2. Center for a Free Cuba ($3,317,479)
3. The Institute for Democracy in Cuba ($1,000,000 - completed)
4. Cuban Dissidence Task Group ($250,000 - completed)
5. International Republican Institute ($2,174,462)
6. Freedom House: Cuban Democracy Project ($1,325,000)
7. Grupo de Apoyo a la Disidencia ($2,700,000)
8. Accion Democratica Cubana ($400,000)

http://www.usaid.gov/regions/lac/cu/upd-cub.htm

[TeeYiYi]

93. You 'tore it up'? . . .

What was it made out of . . . rice paper? Was the 'Dean for President' part written in pencil?
Maybe you could have saved yourself the loss of that expensive button by just using an eraser. . .

TYY

[Augspies]

2. Because Dean is DLC in Anti-war rhetoric

n/t

[veganwitch]

3. because Cubans are pissed at Bush because

he's recently sent a few boatloads of Cubans back to Cuba, he thinks he can reverse the anti-Dem trend in the Cuban community that came because of the Elian fiasco. Not saying it's right, just why he's doing it. Of course it shouldn't come as a surprise considering his obvious pandering on his death penalty stance.

[guajira]

4. I Wonder What other views he will "Shift" On??

I'm going to paint a big red line with nail polish across my Dean button!!!!

[liberalnurse]

18. Bullshit....

You don't have No Stink'en Dean Button...... Why flame like that?

[guajira]

23. YES I do!!

Don't make accusations you can't back up!

[Cha]

27. Let's see it!

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

55. No defense for Dean?

Just a personal attack with no facts to back it up?

I guess everyone who disagrees with you is a "shit-stirrer"

You must be very "disappointed"

[guajira]

68. 'Why the Personal attack?

I have posted many times that my dream team was Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean.

Now I have to re-think that because Dean is selling out to Miami Republicans, while at the same time claiming to be above all that!

[IndianaGreen]

79. Perhaps Dean will appoint Otto Reich as Secretary of State

and keep John Negroponte as UN Ambassador?

What's next? A trip to Miami to meet with the anti-Semites that run CANF?

Unfortunately Dennis Kucinich, the darling of some of my "leftists" friends, is not much better on this issue:

Dennis Kucinich on Foreign Policy

Voted YES on keeping Cuba travel ban until political prisoners released.

Stop enforcing travel restrictions on US citizens to Cuba, only after the president has certified that Cuba has released all political prisoners, and extradited all individuals sought by the US on charges of air piracy, drug trafficking and murder.

Bill HR 2590 ; vote number 2001-270 on Jul 25, 2001

http://www.issues2000.org/OH/Dennis_Kucinich_Foreign_Policy.htm

And who is going to certify the release of our own political prisoners?

[papau]

5. Dean has a reasonable position - why flame him?

<snip> "Dean said he supports rolling back the embargo in order to encourage human-rights advancements -- but citing Fidel Castro's recent crackdowns on dissidents, says that in recent months he has become convinced that ``we can't do it right now.''Dean called Cuba a ''political question,'' and said that recent developments on the island would prevent him from his goal of ``constructive engagement of Cuba.''''If you would have asked me six months ago, I would have said we should begin to ease the embargo in return for human-rights concessions,'' he said, responding to a question from a Herald reporter at a dinner Sunday night in Seattle. ``But you can't do it now because Castro has just locked up a huge number of human-rights activists and put them in prison and show trials. You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade.''

<snip>''I can't say I know him, but I appreciate his sensitivity to the issue,'' said Joe Garcia, executive director of the Cuban American National Foundation and one of the harshest recent critics of Bush's Cuba policies. ``He's saying what any reasonable person would say.''

[plurality]

7. Castro has nothing to do with this

The people in Cuba are in absolute poverty because of this embargo. Virtually all women are forced into prostitution just to get money to eat. My best friend went there for school for two weeks and the poverty of the people astounded him. Most telling for him was when a woman with a baby in her arms asked him, 'How much will you pay to fuck me, I have to feed my baby.'

Lifting the embargo isn't about rewarding Castro, it's about allowing the Cuban people the opportunity to not have to be whores and hustlers to survive. That Dean would say lifting the embargo is rewarding Castro shows either how little understanding he has on the issue or how heartless he is, either way, bad show.

[twilight]

12. Maybe Dean enjoys watching others suffer

Thats about the only thing I can figure with this guy. He changes like the tide I have noted.

I don't and will not support him on any level. He needs to get his head screwed on straight and figure out what his real agenda is. Does he even have one I am beginning to wonder at times.

I met a young man from Vermont the other day and he is very sick with epilepsy and requires a service dog be with him at all times. You could tell he was on heavy medications and I asked him if he was on disability and he replied, "Sort of". I said, "SORT OF?" He then shrugged.

I asked him what he thought about Dean and he just shook his head as to say NO. That sort of did it for me. So much for the compassionate doctor Dean. Dean needs to get real, and real very fast.

:kick:

[Mika]

15. How dare you!

Posted by plurality-->".. it's about allowing the Cuban people the opportunity to not have to be whores and hustlers to survive."

How dare you taint all of the Cuban people in such a way! despicable! :puke:

While I agree with your stance on ending the US embargo, I condemn and wholly refute your disgusting evaluation of the Cuban people and the way they live.



The Cuban people are WEALTHY with universal health care for ALL Cubans, wealthy universal education for ALL Cubans (including higher ed), wealthy with the most complete organic food supply, wealthy with peace and space for children to grow as children should.. free of gun violence and a gun culture, wealthy with a representative democracy and complete social safety net, wealthy with sovereignty and freedom from corporatocracy, wealthy with one of the pristine environments in the world, etc etc etc.

It took HARD work for decades by all Cubans to build out such a system - all while facing the US's unjust embargo.
Its not the result of the work of "whores and hustlers".

[plurality]

20. sorry...

but Cuba is neither the totaltarian hell that the right-wingers would have us believe or the socialist paradise others would pitch. Yes, Cuba has universal health care, and universal education, but it DOES NOT have universal food or freedom. Yes they have pristine environments, but you know why? Many Cubans aren't allwoed to go there, tourists are free to go there, but Cubans aren't.

And once again sorry about my description of what the Cuban people have to do to survive, granted they're harsh words, but they're not meant as a knock against the Cuban people. Hell, they're just doing what they have to to survive. I use the harsh words to show what this policy is forcing people to do to survive. And this is not an isolated occurance. Cuba's economy is based on tourism, and it's a fact that major parts of tourist economies in the third world cater to sex tourists. Granted prostitution is illegal in Cuba, but it doesn't mean it's not common. Here read this, American experience of Cuban prostitution first hand.

(it's a four part article in salon)
http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2003/05/20/havana_1/index.html
http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2003/05/21/havana_2/index.html
http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2003/05/22/havana_3/index.html
http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2003/05/23/havana_4/index.html

[guajira]

24. You Want Prostitution??? Go to Miami!!

Every country in the world has prostitution. At least the government of Cuba tries to solve that problem.

[plurality]

25. I never said Cuba is alone in this problem

but it is one of the few places in the world where women are more or less forced into it en mass to survive. Jesus, I'm not saying this to bash Cuba, I'm simply pointing it out as one of the many evils the Cuban people must endure due to this idiotic embargo, and the idiotic politicians who continue it because of their cowardice.

Edit- And for the record I just e-mailed the Kucinich campaign to find out what DKs position is on Cuba. If he has a similar position I promise that he will recieve equal bashing from me on it.

[Mika]

33. COMPLETE BS

".. but it is one of the few places in the world where women are more or less forced into it en mass to survive."

What a complete smear! Forced? En mass? :puke:

You have never been to Cuba, I see.


While I agree with you on your anti sanctions stance, your belittlement of Cuban women is nauseatingly uninformed.

[plurality]

35. I have never been, but my best friend just spent two weeks there

this summer, and his report is that in the cities you would be propostioned from block to block, that it was quite a common occurance. Also read the articles I posted the link to. They are a first hand report of an American woman who spent a year in Cuba searching for her father. During her time she was forced into prostitution out of neccesity and reported that her experience what not at all uncommon from many other Cuban women.

[Mika]

40. I have been there many times

Posted by plurality--> ".. but my best friend just spent two weeks there this summer, and his report is that in the cities you would be propostioned from block to block, that it was quite a common occurance."

Well, if you're looking.. one can find the 'right' blocks to find prostitutes anywhere in the world, Cuba too. Its a common occurrence, globally.



" Also read the articles I posted the link to. They are a first hand report of an American woman who spent a year in Cuba searching for her father. During her time she was forced into prostitution out of neccesity.."

I read your links to a story written by a Cuban "exile". It reads like typical Miamicuban "exile" propaganda. Did you wonder how or why a naturalized US citizen journalist would be "forced" to work as a prostitute (for a story)? Did this foreign based journalist apply for, and get, a legal work visa in Cuba?.. maybe that's why she couldn't get a legal job. She could have returned to the US freely, but, in a nutshell, she, as a journalist, chose to "work" as a prostitute for a completely biased and anti Cuba story.

What is interesting about the story, is that it points out the hypocrisy of US policy.. ex Cubans, "exiles", Cuban-Americans and their family CAN go to Cuba unhindered by the US government, while US citizens of NON Cuban descent are denied our full travel rights, like second class citizens.

[plurality]

42. he wasn't looking for it, just walking down the street

And the reporter that wrote the article wasn't an exile. She was the daughter of an American diplomat and was born in the US. She only later found out her father was Cuban and went there to find. And yes I realize she couldn't work because she didn't have a visa and that had much to do with her going into prostitution, but it also tells of many other Cuban women that are prostitutes that can and do work regular jobs.

As far as the bias of the piece goes, I think you are mistaken that it is anti-Cuban. It simply tells the truth of what many people there experience. Would a piece about crack houses and prostitutes in Oak Lawn be anti-American? In fact I think that the piece is more pro-Cuban because it shows the realities of life for many of the people there due to the sanctions.

[Mika]

50. On crack houses and prostitutes in Oak Lawn

"She only later found out her father was Cuban and went there to find."

But Americans of non Cuban descent are travel banned by the US gov. Pure political hypocricy.



"Would a piece about crack houses and prostitutes in Oak Lawn be anti-American? "

No. But to suggest that the poor women of Oak Lawn (or all of America) are forced en mass to live like the prostitutes of Oak Lawn would be a gross distortion, as is your suggestion that that is the case in Cuba.



"And yes I realize she couldn't work because she didn't have a visa and that had much to do with her going into prostitution, "

So much for your false 'forced into prostitution' claim then.



".. but it also tells of many other Cuban women that are prostitutes that can and do work regular jobs."

So much for your false 'forced into prostitution' claim then.

[plurality]

54. so much for... how?

".. but it also tells of many other Cuban women that are prostitutes that can and do work regular jobs."

So much for your false 'forced into prostitution' claim then.

So the fact that women who don't earn enough to support themselves and their families with regualar work have to take up prostitution in addition to their normal jobs somehow disproves that women in Cuba aren't 'forced' into prostitution due to poverty. Poverty that is due to the embargo mind you.

[truth2power]

46. If there wasn't a ban on Americans traveling to Cuba

then maybe we wouldn't have to depend on second and third hand reports. American citizens could go there to see for themselves.

I wonder what the Bush administration doesn't want us to see there? Hmmm??

[guajira]

66. I just Read your 4 links - and I'm still ROTFLMAO

This woman claims to have been forced into prostitution?? No decent woman alive would believe that. Many of us have faced difficult economic times, and never resorted to that!

Her description of Cuban women having so much hair on their legs that they looked like they were wearing shorts when they shaved up to their thighs??? And the European men wanting dark ladies because they're looking for slaves?? IMO this anonymous woman is a wack-job or a liar or both!!

[bleedingheart]

83. If Castro stepped down and set up a democratic election

he could end his people's suffering right now...

but personally I think its all a tit for tat game..left over from the '50s.

[Mika]

9. Its not reasonable

So I guess Dean supports the US's funding of the so called "dissident" ops in Cuba.

``But you can't do it now because Castro has just locked up a huge number of human-rights activists and put them in prison and show trials. You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade.''

1) Castro doesn't run Cuba's court system

2) They are not "human-rights activists", they are paid operatives of the declared enemy of Cuba.

3) There weren't "show trials". There were fully open trials where the defendents had legal representation.. but Cuba law enforcement officers had infiltrated the US funded "dissident" operations and provided ample damning evidence as to their illegal operations.


Plus, the "You can't reward that kind of behavior if what you want to do is link human-rights behavior with foreign trade" is just simply ridiculous considering the US's trade relations with China, etc..

Dean is pandering to the worst elements of the Miamicuban diaspora.

[Julien Sorel]

10. Garcia is pro-sanction, so his opinion isn't worth a whole lot

in this context.

This is inevitable -- as Dean gets closer to power, he's going to adopt 'safer' views. I don't know why people are surprised by this.

[JaneQPublic]

6. Not a deal-breaker

Personally, I would prefer the embargo be lifted. It would be a small boost to American farmers and manufacturers.

But I'm not going to dump Dean because of his views on Cuba. Frankly, it's just not on my radar screen of critical issues right now. And I would guess most Americans feel the same way.

[guajira]

8. Dean Doesn't Care About My Freedom to Travel - For Political Reasons!

Cubans (and their American relatives) fly back and forth from Miami to Havana, Cubans in New York fly directly to Miami, even LA started a direct flight to Havana - BUT NOT FOR AMERICANS!!!

This kind of discrimination is exactly what I thought Dean was against, but he's just as likely to sell-out as any other politician!!

Dean has clay feet and is not the giant among men that people think he is. Obviously the truth is starting to leak out!!

[Cha]

28. Bullpucky...that's just your opinion and I'll take it for what it's

worth.

[Mika]

17. Not on the radar?

Do you remember the 2000 election?

Do you want more Miamicuban extremist run vote fraud in Miami-Dade?

We must normalize relations with Cuba in order to disempower the Miamicuban "exiles" plus the politicians who pander to them for campaign money, and remove Cuba issues from the American political system.

[Voltaire99]

71. Not all radars are created equally

The best reason for normalizing relations with Cuba is to end the economic suffering imposed by Washington.

Pretty damn "critical" if you're an impoverished Cuban.

[peacetalksforall]

11. I've had all kinds of misgivings about Dean

I cannot support any candidate that allows Cuban-Americans to hold this country hostage. It is extremely disturbing that another political person is bowing down to them.

The situation is bizarre - instead of opening up our relationships with Cuba and allow those people to thrive or progress on their own, the Cuban Americans play money politics with the rest of the nation. Their hard earned money is sent to their relatives in Cuba by the billions, and your tax dollars are cycled to Cuban-American foundations and a that money is funnelled to politicians. Plus, holding on to the communist rhetoric and their more important reason to live - their hate for one man, many Cuban-Americans make a bundle for themselves with funding for propaganda radio and tv bombardments.

Now why would Dean get into bed with all other politicians?

Are there no politicians with guts to stand up to this circle of money at our expense?

Someone must be laughing at us to keep paying for this.

What don't I understand?

[revcarol]

13. Between his Israeli/Palestinian stance and his Cuba/US stance,

we've got ourselves in a real pickle, not unlike the one we've got with Bush. Is there a sane adviser who can talk to this man?

[guajira]

14. Cubans on the Island Want the Embargo and Travel Ban to End

Cubans in Cuba want to meet and know Americans. They welcome us there.

The embargo is against American businesses. The travel ban is against all Americans. Both are against Cubans on the island.

The only people who want the embargo to continue are Miami Republican Batistianos, Bushco, and pandering politicians. That's the "club" that Dean just joined!!

[ima_sinnic]

16. his official stand on Cuba, from his web site

f. Trade with Cuba

The Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancements Act (TSRA) that passed in 2000 and allowed food and medicine exports to Cuba through third-country financing resulted in a $165 million increase in revenue for farmers in 2002. Lifting further sanctions and allowing the direct sale of food to Cuba could mean as much a $1.25 billion in added sales annually according to a Texas A&M study. We cannot reward Castro for his recent human rights abuses, but I believe that we will further the cause of democracy in Cuba with the eventual lifting of trade sanctions. As president I will:

--Move towards the eventual lifting of the trade embargo with Cuba in order to open a new market to American farmers and to push forward the forces of Democracy in Cuba
--Make clear that Cuba will not be rewarded for continued human rights violations

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_agriculture_summary

It sounds like he is still formulating his policy re Cuba. At least he talks about the "eventual lifting" of the embargo. I'm disappointed that he, like Clinton, doesn't just take a stand against the embargo, outright, but I will take a wait and see attitude. Can't get EVERYthing with any candidate.

I believe he is amenable to hearing what the public thinks. I have e-mailed his campaign on several occasions, even provided links to discussions on DU, and later his speeches sometimes reflected points that I made. I am e-mailing him asking that he take a firmer stand on definitely lifting the embargo, as a gesture of true compassion for the Cuban people and, further, to end that pandering to the little population of disgruntled Cubans in Miami who still can't get over it after 40 years.

[Mika]

21. Clintons stand

Clinton's stance on the Cuban embargo..

.. right next to the CANF's Mas Canosa.


CANF founder and Clinton fundraiser Jorge Mas Canosa & Bill Clinton


Those of us who follow this issue saw Bill Clinton do the dance with the radical & monied elements of the Miamicuban diaspora knew that he wouldn't soften the sanctions on Cuba.. and he didn't. As a matter of fact, Clinton strengthened the embargo at the behest of the "exile" minority.

[deutsey]

19. This sounds consistent with Dean's "fair trade" stand

in which he says we should not trade with countries that violate human rights. From what I've read, Dean believes that we need to help support the proliferation of an "international middle class" that values human rights.

[Cha]

26. Then shouldn't we not trade with China?

[0rganism]

87. Dean talked about that in his recent visit to Portland

He said China's forced labor and human rights situation would be difficult to change with trade sanctions, but he'd consider them anyway. I think Dean's going through some foreign policy evolution as he gets up to speed on the various issues; it'll be interesting to see what he finishes with.

[Stuckinthebush]

22. Well that's it! I'm not voting for Dean!

Who do you want me to vote for? Clark? Okeydokey.

/sarcasm off

It looks to me like Dean has a goal of "constructive engagement of Cuba."

It sounds like he will work towards normalizing relations in a steady manner. There was a crackdown on dissidents by Castro recently. Anybody who wishes to be president needs to acknowledge this. Dean has - he also has said that he has a goal of constructive engagement.

Once again, let's stop the Dean/Kerry/Clark/(fillinacandidatehere) bashing and focus on the positives of all candidates.

What is it that Gen. Clark would like to do with Cuba? How does he plan to normalize relations with Castro? What is his response to Castro's brutal crackdown on dissidents? How would he deal with the very influential Cuban-American community and their concerns? Has he discussed any of this yet? I would seriously like to know - and these questions apply for other candidates as well.

Let's get positive here - it really makes one's day nicer.

[guajira]

29. I Asked That Question from Draft Clark People & Here is their answer

Hi xxxx, here is that info. It is from a speech he gave. There was some Q&A at the end. Hope this helps, xxxx.


"In response to a question from the audience, Clark also said he felt the answer to converting Cuba from communism is with trade, contact and exposure to Americans. “The way to deal with Castro,” Clark said, “is to send Cuba American tourists, American goods and American farm products. There could be no better way to deal with this last vestigial form of Communism than to turn American business and American agriculture loose on them.”

[JI7]

30. interesting

i agree with clark on this. i will be interested in seeing more of him and hearing him speak out more on the issues, especially foreign policy. he would be john kerry's biggest challenger on this area, and i hope they have a good debate on the issues of foreign policy. this is one reason i wanted gary hart and joe biden to run also. i think we need more debate on these things.

[Old and In the Way]

32. Dean's a politician

and will be dancing on some mighty small pins to get himself elected. Nothing wrong with that. The proof will be in his actions once he's elected. I don't see any real ties between him and the Miami Cuban community. IMHO, I think that he will move to open Cuba to US commerce and travel....why not? What better way to disprove the Republican mantra about "Cuba is evil".....nothing will change Cuba faster than opening it to US trade.

[sangh0]

56. You're spinning

Even though Dean himself says that he is against trade with Cuba, and supports the sanctions, you say that Dean WILL move to open Cuba. You offer nothing to support that position aside from your hope that it is true.

You ask "why not?" - Simple, because Dean's said so, and because Dean's position on trade (ie. that it protect human rights) is also opposed to trade with Cuba.

You ask "why not?" - Simple, because Dean's said so, and because Dean's position on trade (ie. that it protect human rights) is also opposed to trade with Cuba.

Right, and Dean is opposed to trading with Cuba

[Old and In the Way]

80. Well, I did say IMHO...........

Time will tell....;-)

[Mika]

31. Can't go positive with lies

"There was a crackdown on dissidents by Castro recently. "

Those are not "dissidents". They are foreign (US) paid operatives, working with terrorist organizations based in Miami and Washington, seeking to overthrow the government of Cuba.

Do you think that Cuba shouldn't arrest and try foreign paid operatives seeking to overthrow Cuba's government?



"What is his response to Castro's brutal crackdown on dissidents? "


They aren't "dissidents" (see above), and no one was treated brutally. ALL of the jailed "dissidents" get weekend furlows, holiday furlows, family occasion furlows, work furlows, etc.. The Cuban prison system isn't what the US propaganda makes it out to be. The travel sanctions help keep Americans in the dark about the realities NOW in Cuba.

LESSONS FROM OUR NEIGHBORS TO THE SOUTH: THE CUBAN PRISON SYSTEM - REFLECTIVE OBSERVATIONS 2000

Castro, Castro, Castro, Castro! The propaganda drill is just whirling here. QUICK! Duck and cover.. the commies are coming the commies are coming.

Cuba has a fully representational democracy, with all of the structures, facets and hallmarks of one. Castro doesn't micro manage Cuba. Demonizing and focusing on Castro is a constant mistake/distraction. The goal of this distraction, and the travel sanctions, is to keep Americans from seeing the fact that it is the Cuban people who run Cuba, not Fidel.

http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

[Rose Siding]

34. Didn't Castro execute some of them?

Isn't Dean responding as many world leaders did to that? I don't see that he said anything that would indicate that his goal has changed.

And Juajira, do you know the date of the Clark speech?

[plurality]

36. Didn't we execute Timothy McVeigh...

another 'dissident' just doing his patriotic duty to overthrow the government? Don't many other nations execute people intent on violently overthrowing the government? Remember the big referendum for human rights that was being held in Cuba a year ago? Notice none of them were arrested, imprisoned, or executed. Cuba has a problem with terrorists from this country infiltrating their country and making life hell. They bomb airliners and do other unsavory deeds. Should Castro, or any other national leader for that matter, leave them alone so they can commit more terrorist acts? Let's not forget that this country is currently harboring several Cuban 'freedom figthers' known in the rest of the world as terrorists.

[Mika]

41. No. No "dissidents" were executed

The jailed "dissidents" and the hijackers are two different groups. (Although the State Dept and the the "exiles", as well as the press, sure do seem to want people to confuse the two different groups and merge the seperate incidents.)

The executions were for 3 violent hijackers who attacked a tourist harbor ferry and took it out to the Gulf Stream with 35 tourists on board. They held guns and knives to the heads and throats of children during the ordeal.

I personally do not agree with the death penalty in Cuba (or anywhere), but that is Cuba's perogative.

[guajira]

44. No I Don't Know the Date But I might Have it in a PDF, if I could print it

The Draft Clark worker sent me a PDF, but when I try to print it, all I get is machine print - boxes and symbols. I'm sure there's a simple solution for that, but I haven't found it yet!

[Rose Siding]

57. I found it

July 23, 2002

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:fuwiO8R-GjUJ:www.nwaonline.net/pdfarchive/2002/July/23/FZ%25207-23-02%2520A1.pdf+%E2%80%9CThe+way+to+deal+with+Castro,%E2%80%9D+Clark+said,&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

This would have been before the events that sparked some int'l criticism. I favor normalization of relations with Cuba, btw and I am also a Dean supporter. I'll be interested to see how they both end up coming down on this issue in practical terms. I'd be surprised if there is much variation.

[Stuckinthebush]

37. Excellent points, all...

Thank you for the clarification of the term "dissident".

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. Even the European Union is pissed about his crackdown on dissadents

In June, the EU had announced it was cutting back political contacts with Cuba due to the mass arrest of 75 dissidents and the summary executions of three ferry hijackers trying to reach the United States. The EU also decided to invite dissidents to national day receptions of its 15 member nations in Havana.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N07271654.htm

[plurality]

39. because we all know that hijackers in the US

would be given lengthy, fair trials right?

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. If we could try them

All of the Sept. 11 hijackers died that day. The European Union hasn't applied sanctions on the US for throwing Dennis Kucinich in jail. Would Castro allow the type of criticism that Democrats are hurling at Bush?

[plurality]

45. he already has

Cuba Dissidents Say 10,000 Sign Referendum Appeal
by Isabel Garcia-Zarza
March 07, 2002


HAVANA (Reuters) - In an apparently unprecedented move during President Fidel Castro's 43-year rule, a group of dissidents says it has gathered 10,000 signatures to ask the Cuban parliament for a referendum on political reforms.

"We are proposing a consultation with the people so they decide about change," a leading moderate dissident, Oswaldo Paya, who is the main promoter of the so-called Varela Project, told Reuters late on Wednesday.

The project, named for pro-independence Catholic priest Felix Varela (1788-1853), is based on article 88 of the Cuban constitution, which says new legislation may be proposed by citizens if more than 10,000 voters support them.

The proposed referendum, Paya said, would be on the need to guarantee the rights of free expression and association; an amnesty for political prisoners; more opportunities for private business; a new electoral law; and a general election.

http://www.cubacenter.org/media/news_articles/referendum.php3

None of these people are included in the recent crack down on 'dissidents'.

And what about Jose Padilla? Where's his fair, speedy trial? Oh yeah, that's right, he's an enemy combatant, so he doesn't get a trial. I forget, what do they say about people living in glass houses?

[Mika]

47. Yes

"Would Castro allow the type of criticism that Democrats are hurling at Bush?"

Its easy to hurl nonsense when you don't know its nonsense.

Why don't you google Oswaldo Paya, of the Cuban Christian Democratic Party.


Castro doesn't rule Cuba.

Do you think that the Cuban people would tolerate that? How stupid can that assumption be?


If Americans were not banned by their own government from going to the island then they could see that there is a lively and open political debate in Cuba. At rallies, meetings, public debates on Cuban TV, on Cuban radio, and in the thousands of small papers and political manifestos printed daily, weekly and monthly there.. including vociferous opposition voices.

But, Americans, by and large, know nothing of this. They are kept in the dark by their own government and their own lack of curiosity and/or investigative motivation.

[tlcandie]

49. I'm not going to dis Dean .. I will talk about the embargo though ..

It seems to me that a RECENT, in our face, embargo against Iraqis caused a LOT of deaths, heartache and hard feelings against us. I wonder if we will learn anything from this about embargos?

Isn't there a way that the embargo could be lifted with a hitch that it would be placed under the distribution of the UN within said country or something?

There IS A WAY TO MAKE IT WORK FOR THE TRUE CITIZENS OF CUBA!!! We must find it and support it for human rights sake!

My husband and I believe that if you isolate a country for human rights issues, or whatever the reason, then you cut off ALL LIGHT to that country. Wouldn't it be better to offer at least a pinhole of light rather than total darkness (isolation)?

Think of its people...not its leaders! Look at other countries. Once they let in even a tad bit of light...the people will take up the banner, albeit maybe slowly, but surely and in THEIR own time and way and push for a government of THEIR PEOPLES...like Chavez!

I'm sorry, but I can't take another Iraq embargo...that just sickens me to think that we could so soon forget and/or gloss over it.

Again, this is about embargos NOT a candidate. Take the issue out of the political arena of a DEM candidate...determine your stance, then come back to the DEM political arena a review your choices.

Someone posted previously, that this is the hazzard of deciding your candidate too soon :shrug: I'm fairly new by all accounts, but I wish you all the best because I know it won't be easy!!

[Mika]

53. Cuba increased its social network during the embargo

Posted by tlcandie --> "It seems to me that a RECENT, in our face, embargo against Iraqis caused a LOT of deaths, heartache and hard feelings against us. I wonder if we will learn anything from this about embargos?"



That is just where Cuba is different. Unlike dictatorships, Cuba has constantly improved its social infrastructure during the 40+ years of US embargo.

Think of where Cuba could be now, socially and economically, if it weren't for the US sanctions.
Cuba's democratic socialism puts America's corporate republic to shame.



Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

At the same time, however, its record of social achievement has not only been sustained; it’s been enhanced, according to the WDI.

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990.  That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since. “Doctors in Cuba can make more driving cabs and working in hotels, but they don’t. They’re just very dedicated,” he said.

Ritzen agreed that the Cuban experience probably couldn’t be applied wholesale to another poor country, but insisted that developing countries can learn a great deal by going to the island.

“Is the experience of Cuba useful in other countries? The answer is clearly yes, and one is hopeful that political barriers would not prevent the use of the Cuban experience in other countries. Here, I am pretty hopeful, in that I see many developing countries taking the Cuban experience well into account.”

[demigoddess]

90. Hey guys, the issue is whether or not Dean will make a good pres, and

can he overturn bush, I can live without settleing the Cuba issue until he is elected. Focus on the basics. Our freedom, then we can overturn the right wing idiocy in the long run.

[guajira]

48. Let Me Get This Straight - You Don't Like Castro, so you travel-ban Americ

WAKE UP AMERICANS!!! The travel ban is against YOU!!! You're the one who can't go to Cuba and see what it is really like there!

The embargo is against Americans businesses!!! Other countries can travel and trade with Cuba.

MiamiCubans don't want you going to Cuba (although they can go!!), so they manipulate pandering politicians (which apparently now includes Dean), to keep you from traveling there.

Do you like the leader of China? Would that keep you from going there? What about Vietnam? Hell, you can even go to Iraq!!!

But a beautiful friendly Caribbean Island 90 miles from Key West? Sucker, you are travel-banned!!!!!

[tlcandie]

52. If we could travel to Cuba .. wouldn't we get closer to GITMO?

n/t

EDIT: I live in Florida. I could see flying there and picketing GITMO...thousands of us! I know...I'm dreaming :(

[guajira]

58. GITMO is on the far East end of the Island - almost 1000 miles from Havana

Cuba is a long island, and there would be little chance of picketing in that mountainous area, patrolled by US and Cuban military.

However, it would be fun to see thousands of Americans marching on the Malecon in Havana, protesting the US imposed travel ban against Americans!!

[tlcandie]

59. That works for me : )

On second thought...could we not get boats/barges to take us over there offshore? :)

[WilliamPitt]

60. Oh no! Oh dear! Oh goodness! Oh horror! Oh woe! Oh fudge!

Don't tell me the word is finally getting out that Howard is not as progressive as his press would have people believe? Don't tell me word is getting out that Dean is a centrist, a compromise candidate? Dread the thought that one might actually have to...gruuk...compromise in order to vote for him. Oh, the humanity.

Ain't no angels running for President this year, folks. Adlai Stevenson is cold in his grave, and George McGovern has yet to announce. Jesus is apparently busy elsewhere, as is Buddha and Vishnu and Krishna. Looks like you're settling for less.

Horror. Horror. Horror.

P.S. Dean still has 100% of my support if he gets the nomination.

[sangh0]

61. Missing the point

While it's true that ALL candidates spend a good deal of energy fudging their positions -because they know that specific positions tend to turn potential supporters into someone else's supporter-- they don't all bill themselves as a "Straight Talker"

[WilliamPitt]

62. Oh, of course they do

Of course they try to come off as straight talkers. How else would they campaign? "Vote for Bob: The Connsumate Bullshit Artist." I don't see that carrying many votes.

[sangh0]

63. No, they dont

They don't campaign as liars, but, generally speaking, they don't bill themselves as "Straight Talkers" as explicitely as the Dean campaign has.

I don't see that carrying many votes.

You're right. It won't "carry" votes. But take a look at some of the more complimentary posts concerning Dean, and you'll see that his rep for "straight talk" plays a substantial role in their support. Hints that Dean is not a straight talker, but a typical politician, can hurt him seriously

[WilliamPitt]

64. Which is the bowels of my initial post

pretty much.

[sangh0]

65. I must have missed that part

My bad

PS - And I also will support Dean 100% should he get the nomination

[Mika]

74. Will, it doesn't take an angel to drop the unjust sanctions

{edit: spelling}


"Ain't no angels running for President this year, folks. Adlai Stevenson is cold in his grave, and George McGovern has yet to announce. Jesus is apparently busy elsewhere, as is Buddha and Vishnu and Krishna. Looks like you're settling for less."



Like we need Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, and Krishna to change this inane Cuba policy, and its subsequent influence on US politics.
On second thought, I guess with the current Dems-on-the-take and their duplicity we just might.


Its not like the US sanctions on Cuba represent a huge portion of the US's foreign policy. Actually, trading with Cuba would be entirely more consistent with US trade policy. Its the completely disproportionate representation that the minority of the "exile' community wields due to campaign dollars that is part of the objection. Its not like the dropping of the embargo or ending the travel sanctions on Americans is a controversial issue.. it is mainstream belief that normalization of trade and travel relations would do more for Cuba's "freedom' than anything else.

Why would Dean pander so to such a small group of monied "exiles" who are in the minority opinion, even in the overall Cuban-American community?


Its really about campaign finance corruption/pandering. Doesn't take a savior to see that.

[GreenArrow]

70. "he's just one more panderer to MiamiCubans."

Not quite, he's just one more panderer to big business and establishment protocols.

[progressivebydesign]

89. When Greens attack..

.. next on the Fox Superstation. Yawn.

[Selwynn]

75. I have never jumped on the Dean bus...

I think he deserves AT BEST some cautious optimism at this point. He is not as liberal as either A) I would like or B) he tries to pass off and we've seen a lot of rhetoric designed to fire up people like us, but I have seen very little in terms of clear stands on many issues. And the ones where there has been a clearly identified stand, frankly I don't agree with him. His stands on gay rights is too weak, he's methods for "fiscal" discipline have more to do with cutting needful programs than with bringing in enough revenue (his budget blanacing record while governor is testimony to that) and his gun position is murky and soft at best. I haven't heard much about other issues but so far I'm less than impressed.

Sorry, but "anyone but bush" doesn't cut it for me. At least NOT this early in the game. Before the Dem Nomination - I will support whatever candidate I believe is the best candidate. After the Dem nom, I'll support the Dem nom. :)

[adityanm]

76. That is what turned me off from Gore in 2000

When Gore decided to pander to cubans he made the biggest mistake and turned off many of his supporters in Florida. He has no chance to get the vote of rabid anti-Castro lobby in Miami but when he criticised the Attorney General for handling the Elian case he alienated many people who would have voted for him but decided to abstain or vote for Green Party.

If Gore had been consistent then he would be sitting in White House and not worrying about a few votes margin in FL.

[guajira]

77. Welcome Aditanm - I couldn't Agree More!!!

Gore would have shown immense backbone if he had stood up to the Miami Cubans and he would have put B* on the defense! I always thought that would be the key to getting Gore elected, and I emailed him during the campaign on that issue.

[Judi Lynn]

82. You bet, it was a terrible idea

I remember cringing when I learned he had dropped that bomb.

A lot of good it did him, too. The Miami Cuban extremists have hated him continuously ever since Elian was returned to his father, as they ALWAYS associated him with the actions of Bill Clinton's policy.

In NO WAY were they moved to support him because of his sudden announcement that he supported them in illegally, and immorally stealing that little boy from his father.

The Miami mafia can be seen in various shots taken during the 2000 vote recount, milling about, in front of tv, and print media cameras, boasting "Sore-Loserman" signs.

The Miami Cuban hate radio stations trumpeted their hatred of Gore, and their support of Bush during that time, and rallied the crowds to hop on busses and tear over to the recount locations and raise holy hell, which they did.

From a NY Times article:
(snip) The city's most influential Spanish-language radio station, Radio Mambi, called on staunchly Republican Cuban-Americans to head downtown to demonstrate. Republican volunteers shouted into megaphones urging protest. A lawyer for the Republican Party helped stir ethnic passions by contending that the recount was biased against Hispanic voters.

The subsequent demonstrations turned violent on Wednesday after the canvassers had decided to close the recount to the public. Joe Geller, chairman of the Miami-Dade Democratic Party, was escorted to safety by the police after a crowd chased him down and accused him of stealing a ballot. Upstairs in the Clark center, several people were trampled, punched or kicked when protesters tried to rush the doors outside the office of the Miami-Dade supervisor of elections. Sheriff's deputies restored order. (snip)

(snip) "We were trying to stop the recount; Bush had already won," said Evilio Cepero, a reporter for Radio Mambi. "We were urging people to come downtown and support and protest this injustice."

Mr. Cepero played a key role in the protests, roaming around the building outside and, with a megaphone, addressing a crowd of perhaps 150 people. "Denounce the recount!" he shouted repeatedly. "Stop the injustice!" He regularly cut into Radio Mambi's broadcasts to encourage people to come downtown. And he also phoned in interviews with two Republican lawmakers — United States Representatives Lincoln Diaz- Balart and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, both Cuban-Americans — who also helped persuade people to come.

Several people who attended the demonstration said they had decided to do so after receiving an automated phone message, initiated by local Republican officials, encouraging them.

One was Rebecca Totilo, who came to the protest with her husband and four children, and carried a "Rotten to the Gore" poster. (snip)

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/24/politics/24MIAM.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=c806a5e7db239914&ex=1062043200

Didn't do Al Gore too much good, actually, did it, to try to win their favor? And welcome to D.U., Adityanm!

[David Zephyr]

78. Dean is in Sync With Amnesty International & the European Union

Fidel's crackdown on dissidents, regardless of the justifications, is reprehensible. Any attempt to excuse it is pathetic.

My hope is that Fidel will figure out that he is alienating his friends and sympathizers with such crude, barbaric and vulgar actions.

I am a long time student of the Cuban revolution and I can argue either side of the issue.

In spite of Fidel's many admirable achievements from education and healthcare to simply outsmarting both the imperialistic tentacles of both the U.S. and the Stalinist U.S.S.R. for decades, Fidel's long established record of harassing, murdering and torturing writers, poets, artists and political dissidents is nothing to blink at. It is horrendous.

Reinaldo Arenas' personal and harrowing tale of his decades of suffering persecution and confinement along with Fidel' brutal treatment of homosexuals is hardly a rightwing construct, but an indictment and --- a call for help.

To put things in perspective, I just participated in a marvelous tribute to the life of Ernesto "Che" Guevara in East Los Angeles this week. I believe that Che is one of the 20th Century's most heroic individuals. Fidel's silent complicity with the U.S.S.R. to let Che flounder in Bolivia without funds, without arms, without aid, without communication while the C.I.A. and the Bolivian armed forces tracked him down is unforgivable.

Fidel Castro has thumbed his nose at Amnesty International, the European Union with his "crackdown" on dissidents. Further, Castro has gravely embarrassed our Former President Jimmy Carter who went a long way to help not only lift the U.S. embargo against Cuba, but to help bridge the gulf of paranoia created unjustly by the C.I.A. and Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, Jerry Ford, Ronald Reagan, George H. Bush and George W. Bush --- and, of course, Jesse Helms and the old Cuban ruling class now consigned to feeding tubes in Miami nursing homes.

Howard Dean's "change" is a response to Fidel Castro's unwarranted "change" and is a measured response and a correct response. For Dean to now ignore the newly documented abuses by Amnesty International and the opinion of the European Union who has been Castro's ally for decades against the wrongful U.S. embargo would be foolish and wrong.

I am a life-long socialist and I support Howard Dean's position. So should every progressive American.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250352003

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2983104.stm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/jan-june03/cuba_4-24.html

[David Zephyr]

81. Cuba and the Embargo

Howard Dean, a long time supporter of removing the embargo against Cuba, is in sync with the European Union and Amnesty International in his concern with Fidel's crackdown on dissidents. I realize that the title to my earlier post was confusing. I apologize for that. I think that my post was clear, though.

There is no doubt that the EU has opposed the embargo and still does.

Still, let's discuss the "embargo" for a moment.

For the record and for honesty's sake, it is important to point out that the United States is currently the largest single source of agricultural products and food products to Cuba. This includes chicken, pork, beef, rice, beans, eggs, wine, butter, candy, soft drinks, cereals and cookies. In fact, this constitutes nearly $500 million in real trade.

The "embargo" also does not prevent any trade or shipment of medical products to Cuba.

I'm not certain that any Democratic Candidate for President is currently thrilled with Castro's crude and cruel move against these dissidents and I would like to see each of their current positions on further relaxing the terms of the embargo in light of Castro's thumbing of his nose to human rights concerns.

Vaclav Havel, the Former Czech president, has gone so far as to nominate Cuba's leading dissident, Oswaldo Paya, for this year's Nobel Peace Prize.

I cannot imagine that any progressive soul would be happy with Castro's history of brutal treatment and murder of artists, poets, writers, and political dissidents.

For the record, I oppose the Most Favored Nation status with China, a terrible abuser of human rights, I oppose NAFTA and the WTO. I support a global living wage.

[guajira]

85. The Embargo & Travel Ban exist because of MiamiCubans!!!

If the hate-filled Batistianos in Miami really cared about Cuba as they claim, they would want the embargo and travel ban to end - NOW!

Instead they have pandering US politicians who allow ONLY Miami Cubans to travel to the island, and allow Miami Cubans to send $$ to their relatives on the island (and screw the rest!!).

Why is my freedom to travel taken away because of Castro??

WAKE UP AMERICANS!! The embargo and travel ban are against AMERICA! And we can thank the Cuban-Republicans in Miami for desperately trying to keep us out of Cuba!!!

[progressivebydesign]

91. The voice of reason..

I'm afraid your very well researched information will fall unheard on most of these posters. They are either:

1) One issue voters, that would rather see Bush win again, then concede that there are other views.

2) People who never planned to vote for Dean in the first place. Mainly Greens who are still believe that Gore/Dean/Bush are the same animal.

I agree with all you posted. Makes sense to me. This thread is giving me a headache. This type of attack that we're witnessing on Dean this morning, is the very reason why I leave DU for months at a time. Some people are just determined to let Bush win again... just to make a statement.

[Judi Lynn]

84. Responding to Say_What's great post #73

You're so right. Hope people will see those statistics. Really food for thought!

Just HOW would our own right-wing greet the information they are to accept without a word, another country bankrolling American citizens to live here while speaking out against the government to people in China?

I just read a moment ago a remark about Bob Graham, of Florida:

(snip) Republicans won't necessarily have much to complain about under Graham's watch, since some of the initiatives he supports also include increased aid to Cuban dissidents. (snip)
http://www.evote.com/features/2001-06/committees.asp

This financial support of dissindents has been going on for quite a while. I'm so glad to see you've got some statistics. It's big business for them. Remember all that "long green" flowing from the pockets of U.S. taxpayers to Cuba to support the dissidents actually only has to be shared by a relatively small number of them, as well. No wonder they are somewhat disliked!

Just a couple of years ago, Jesse Helms and Joe Lieberman created their own ingenius plan, the amazing Cuban Solidarity Act, which would make a maggot gag:

(snip) In the newest piece of legislative folly, Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., joins with Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., and nine other senators to present the Cuban Solidarity Act, which the senate will likely consider in the fall. If passed, the bill would mandate Congress to send $100 million to Cuba over the next four years, primarily to aid opponents of Fidel Castro.


The senators want the money sent to aspiring capitalists (a group discouraged by the Cuban system), to supposedly independent journalists, union organizers and others who want U.S.-style political change in Cuba.


The bill's backers claim that it will mark the beginning of the end for Cuba's long-term ruler.


But the plan has several flaws.


First of all, none of the island's dissenters have accumulated a substantial following. Funding a disorganized group that has little backing would prove futile.


Second, Castro has discredited many of the dissidents by revealing that they have received direct support from officials of the U.S. Interest Section in Havana. (In lieu of formal diplomatic relations, Washington and Havana agreed in 1977 to establish interest sections in each other's capitals.) U.S. State Department officials in Havana supply the dissenters and their groups with generous payments of money and goods> (snip/...)

http://www.progressive.org/pmp0701/pmplj1101.html

[Oreegone]

86. Wait a minute Nay Sayers

For you posters too close to the game:

Most of us in the US are not privey to viewing the power of the Miami Cubans. We see it from an entirely different perspective, as I am sure Dean does. Just because he is cautious due to the recent inhumane Cuban actions does not mean he is therefore in the camp of the Miami Cubans.

Go Dean:kick:

[Say_What]

94. After the stealing of a presidential election in the Sunshine state

with anti-Cuba fascists playing a leading role, it seems prudent that any thinking person would want to be more informed about the "power of the Miami Cubans". They've held Cuba foreign policy hostage for more than 40 years, their corrupt politics and violence are responsible for rigged elections, murders, bombings, squelching of free speech, and the assasination of a foreign diplomat on US soil. SHAME ON YOU for making such an absolutely naive and uniformed statement.

Dean has no excuse. Any presidential candidate who PANDERS to the crowd who stole the election from Gore is hardly worthy of trust and certainly does not deserve to be in the WH.

For your enlightenment, CANF, who was quoted in the article, was responsible for the release of the assasins of Orlando Letelier who was assasinated in Washington in September 1976--to this day, the worst act of terrorism ever committed in the U.S. capital. Here's a couple of links, indulge yourself in some education before putting your foot in your mouth again.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html

http://www.opensecrets.org/pubs/cubareport/congressreceipts.asp

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/belligerence/dionisio-free.htm

http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/rt041701boadle.htm

[progressivebydesign]

88. BEWARE! This is a Dean bashing thread now!

Seems that a few people are getting their cargo pants in a wad over Dean's statement about the embargo. His statement, which acknowledged the need to revisit the embargo, yet be cautious because of recent allegations of human rights abuses, was totally reasonable. It's not a flip flop, he's not DLC, he's not Bush.

"I tore up my Dean button".. really? You can tear up a metal button? If anyone on this thread had TRULY supported Dean, or looked at all his positions, then one comment would not have done it. Sounds like typical bullshit from one-issue voters, and the reason why the Democratic Party is so fractured.

The repubs have it on us in one way... they know their best chance of running the whole show is to have THEIR candidate, their leaders in office. So.. they throw their support behind the one with the best chance of accomplishing that. Unlike many Democrats.. who think that if the candidate or politician doesn't support their particular special interest, then they'll look for someone that does.. even if it means fracturing the vote and the party and lettting the repubs take it all. I ask you.. who controls the white house, congress, and senate?? Hmmmm????

If your support for Dean was so thin to begin with... then I doubt any one of you were supporters to begin with. And frankly, you don't sound any more reasonable then the Miami crowd.

[VolcanoJen]

92. This is a legitimate news story, however...

... I feel strongly that LBN posters should refrain from editorializing in their subject lines. In the future, we should try to keep our feelings out of subject lines and instead include them in the body of the message. The Latest Breaking News Forum is a "just the facts, ma'am" kind of place. :-)

Just my nickle,
Jennifer :-)

[markus]

95. Read what he said

Castro has to give something to get something.

I don't think I would expect a President to deal with anybody on any lesser terms.

I think this makes Dean look a lot more "Presidential". But its too early to worry about this sort of thing, from a handler's perspective. Way too early.

Ain't nobody in Miami who has this as their number one issue is going to be participating in the Democratic nomimation.

[Mika]

97. Castro this, Castro that, Castro = boogey man, Castro sets bad bus routes

"Castro has to give something to get something."

Jezzussss, at what point will Americans realize that Castro isn't an army of one?

The Cuban people kicked out the brutal, bloodsoaked, US backed Batista regime.. why on earth would Americans collectively fantasize that they allow Castro to 'rule them as a dicktater'? Why? Repitition, repitition, repitition. Keep tellin em bullshit often enough.. they'll swallow it, hook line and sinker.


"I don't think I would expect a President to deal with anybody on any lesser terms."

Yeah, right. everyone should be cowed by the murican prezident.. or else. (A variant of 'Yer with us or yer agin us'.)

[Judi Lynn]

98. You've make a perfect point

(snip) The Cuban people kicked out the brutal, bloodsoaked, US backed Batista regime.. (snip)

Yet we're supposed to think there is a huge, bearded old man, rubbing his hands and plotting new tricks to play in keeping 11,000,000 people imprisoned. Yeah, right.

He has a fair amount of support, says the CIA:

(snip) The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t
want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still
others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in
the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people,
but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.
More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of
Marxism.
(snip/...)

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/loyal.htm

[Judi Lynn]

96. American states are moving ahead with Cuba

regardless of scheming and maneuvering by certain politicians to bag the Miami Batistiano vote and financial support:

Alabama lumber headed to Cuba
Last Update: 8/27/2003 4:19:49 PM
Posted By: Devin Walker

(ATMORE, Ala.) August 27 - The Communist island nation of Cuba has been on a shopping spree. The Castro-led government is about to spend millions of dollars in cash in Alabama.

Lumber will soon be head for Cuba. It is part of a $2.5 million, 4 million board-foot deal agreed to by an Alabama trade delegation this past weekend in Cuba.

The lumber will be purchased from Atmore based swift lumber. Robin Swift, III with Swift Supply said, "It's just a new market a big market, an untapped market and it's gonna be big." (snip)

(snip) All the products Cuba buys from Alabama will be shipped through the state docks here in Mobile. (snip/)

http://wpmi.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=280C8108-ABE5-4FFC-B6C2-F5AEFE8B4391

[Judi Lynn]

99. One more state doing even more business with Cuba

August 28, 2003 Summer
Upstate Congressman Wants Cuba Commerce

(Binghamton-AP) -- An upstate congressman says more New York farmers should be able to sell their products to Cuba in the future.
Maurice Hinchey, an Ulster County Democrat, visited Havana last week to speak with Cuban officials about trade and other issues. Hinchey told a Binghamton radio station (WNBF) that some New York apple growers recently have shipped their fruit to Cuba.
He said the Cubans with whom he spoke had high praise for New York's apples, saying "they're the best."
The congressman said there are other opportunities for the state's farmers in Cuba, including those in the dairy industry.
Hinchey renewed his call for the U.S. to normalize relations with Cuba. He said "it's a shame" that trade and travel restrictions remain in place. (snip/...)

http://www.wstm.com/Global/story.asp?S=1094245

Our Miami Battistiano gusanos aren't going to be able to label the agribusiness community, pharaceutical business, and American Chamber of Commerce one large pile of Communists, you know!

They'd better get with the program. Time staggers onward.

[Mika]

100. It seems to me that..

It seems to me that many DUers do not realize that the sanctions on Cuba are also sanctions on US citizens and US businesses.

Why do so many DUers complain about and lament the erosion of our rights under the w* admin, while endorsing the abridgment of our trade and travel rights regarding Cuba? Its inconsistent.

I'm glad to see that there are Dems who are progressive enough to put aside the four decades old commie phobia and Fidel phobia to open trade relations between their people & their state interests and the interests of the Cuban people. Inch by inch.