Far graver than Vietnam (US Generals: War disaster on unprecedented scale)

[Barrett808]

Far graver than Vietnam - Most senior US military officers now believe the war on Iraq has turned into a disaster on an unprecedented scale
Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday September 16, 2004
The Guardian

'Bring them on!" President Bush challenged the early Iraqi insurgency in July of last year. Since then, 812 American soldiers have been killed and 6,290 wounded, according to the Pentagon. Almost every day, in campaign speeches, Bush speaks with bravado about how he is "winning" in Iraq. "Our strategy is succeeding," he boasted to the National Guard convention on Tuesday.

...

Retired general Joseph Hoare, the former marine commandant and head of US Central Command, told me: "The idea that this is going to go the way these guys planned is ludicrous. There are no good options. We're conducting a campaign as though it were being conducted in Iowa, no sense of the realities on the ground. It's so unrealistic for anyone who knows that part of the world. The priorities are just all wrong."

Jeffrey Record, professor of strategy at the Air War College, said: "I see no ray of light on the horizon at all. The worst case has become true. There's no analogy whatsoever between the situation in Iraq and the advantages we had after the second world war in Germany and Japan."

...

"I see no exit," said Record. "We've been down that road before. It's called Vietnamisation. The idea that we're going to have an Iraqi force trained to defeat an enemy we can't defeat stretches the imagination. They will be tainted by their very association with the foreign occupier. In fact, we had more time and money in state building in Vietnam than in Iraq."

General Odom said: "This is far graver than Vietnam. There wasn't as much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went ahead with the war that was not constructive for US aims. But now we're in a region far more volatile, and we're in much worse shape with our allies."

...

General Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first Tuesday in November. That's the cynical part of it - after the election. The signs are all there."

(more)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Nothing to see here

they are not really Americans, and they are trying to bring us down becasue our President is a Republican

I swear I got an answer on this geist today after posting this story
on AOL Hell... some folks really cannot accept that Bush has truly made a blunder, and by the by... Shalikashvilly's warnings that we were headed for a hollow force at the Democratic Conveniton actually make more sense now than ever...

[Aidoneus]

2. These naddering nabobs of negativism..

These Generals should just shut up and leave it to the politicians & media moguls to fight this war!

[BrotherBuzz]

21. That's a plan....

Attack the vicars of vacillation, the pusillanimous pussyfooters, and hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history. Then go after the nattering nabobs of negativism, the ideological eunuchs, the rad-libs, the decadent few, the effete corps of of impudent snobs, and then, once again, go after the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history (my personal favorite). ;)

[tooncesj0nes]

3. military girlie men..

[JoFerret]

4. Excellent article

.

[progressivebydesign]

5. Does it freak you out that other countries are more informed about the US.

than WE are?? Why can't OUR media do these stories?

[Mokito]

26. They CAN, but they WONT!

[Spiffarino]

6. Will Gen. Hoare have to move to England

...to escape the BFEE?

The smear is coming. Can you smell the slime cooking?

[Just Me]

7. Validation is nice but it's not enough,...

,...to win the political war at home.

Why aren't these people making the rounds and opening their big mouths on the front?

If I can do it,...they certainly can!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. This reminds me of an interview with the

Intelligence Vets for truth.... they were asked, "if you had these doubts why didn't you call the press?"

Well aftter about 30 second of silence, (or at least it seemed that way) the guy told the reporter, "we did, you never answered the phone, faxes et al, and by you we mean the Media."

I am paraphrasing, but this is why they are not talking, nobody is answering the fucking phone... and they cannot get their message out

[Spiffarino]

10. Media sources come straight-piped from the WH crapper - n/t

:hurts:

[Just Me]

20. The "media" doesn't control my life,...

,...my activities,...

,...why should it control theirs?

They need to "get out" more *smile*.

I'll arrange for them to spread their message here (can't pay them though,...they'll have to be willing to be as thankless as I *grin*).

This is a "no excuses" commitment to American values and democracy and hopes and dreams.

Otherwise, no bitching allowed *giggle*.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. They have

read the british press, find their site, read it

But still how many Muricans read the Guardian or the Observer?

How many stupid Muricans read anything for that matter

If it is not on teevee it is not real, this is now a truism in
our country

[dolstein]

9. Bullshit

The casualties are nowhere near the levels experienced in Vietnam. Not even close.

[sally343434]

11. You're wrong, my friend

Compare the casuality figures for the first 18 months in Vietnam, then come back when you've finished your homework.

[barb162]

24. Nam in ' 59: 760 US advisers there even then

what year do you start?

[Nevernose]

12. Give it time, Dolstein

Another year or two for organization to occur and supplies to be funneled in. I can easily see us there for the next ten or fifteen years, the body count rising the whole time...

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Look at the rates between 1962 and 1965

and then come back and talk to us...

[dolstein]

19. Look at the rates in Iraq between 2007-and 2010

and then come back and talk to us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Ok mebbe I missed something but

is it 2012 already?

WOW

[yardwork]

14. Also, Iraq will be much more difficult for us in the long run

In Vietnam, we were essentially contributing to a civil war. When we finally had enough we quit and went home. We can't do that in Iraq. We own it. That's what Colin Powell told our president when he decided to invade (after the president got around to telling his secretary of state, long after he brief Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia).

[shadu]

15. don't get those undies in a bundle

Time will tell how the two size up.
This nightmare is only just beginning.

[Leilani]

16. It is not a bigger disaster in terms of casualties

But it is a bigger disaster strategically.

We have lit a match in the Mideast & it is ready to blow. Oil in the region is needed by the world, terrorists will gain a foothold in Iraq, the rest of the world will not trust us again, because of bad intelligence. We have created regional instability in a region that was already beset by huge problems.

And those are just a few problems.

[JoFerret]

29. Strategically far far worse

Bush has declared war on the Muslim world. Made the US almost most-favored pariah status.
But the numbers of the wounded are up there.

[WyLoochka]

17. 6 years, dolstein

We were in Vietnam for six years before hitting the 500 killed in action mark. Of course it got ever so much worse over the long years that followed.

[are_we_united_yet]

25. Hmmmm

disagreeing with a War College professor.

Dolstein, War college professor? Dolstein, War college professor?

Which one do I believe?

[saigon68]

28. Horse shit there aren't 545,000 troops in IRAQ-NAM

And 300,000 in Thailand, offshore in the navy and the Phillipines bombing them day and night.

The British aren't ferrying Russian war materials into Haiphong harbor either.

It will be WORSE THAN VIET-NAM for the cost of this cluster fuck

Also don't forget the HUNDREDS OF MERCENARIES AND HALLIBURTON THUGS KILLED supporting the BUSH CRIMINALS and their Dim Witted CHIMPANZEE

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. American deaths in Iraq are on a more accelerated pace than...

...they were in the early years of Vietnam. It took about eight and a half years of combat in Vietnam to get to where we've gotten in Iraq in much less than two years time.

====================
<http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/vietnam_war_casualty_lists/statistics.html#year>

Year of Death or Declaration of Death - Number of Records
1956-1960 9
1961 16
1962 52
1963 118
1964 206
1965 1,863
=====================

Summary:

1956-1964 = Eight years = 401 total dead
1956-1965 = Nine years = 2,264 total dead

Iraq = March 19, 2003 to present = 18 months = 1020+ American dead

[goforit]

18. And where are those LOUD MOUTH NEOCONs now??????

Hiding some where in a closet????

Richard Perle????

Joe Lieberman?????

William Crytal?????

Kissinger?????

Oliver North?????

Poppy Bush???????

Scowcroft?????

Dick Cheney????

Lynn Cheney?????

Tony Blair????

Rush Limbaugh???

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. With the exception of Lieberman

laughing all the way to the bank

[Barrett808]

31. Fukuyama, at least, has disavowed the snakes n/t

[struggle4progress]

32. kick

:kick: