Fewer foreigners enrolling in grad school

[dArKeR]

U.S. graduate schools this year saw a 28% decline in applications from international students and an 18% drop in admissions, a finding that some experts say threatens higher education's ability to maintain its reputation for offering high-quality programs

Several factors contribute to the drops, council president Debra Stewart says. Those include changes to the visa application process after 9/11, a perception that the USA has grown less welcoming of foreigners and increased competition from universities abroad. Secretary of State Colin Powell, speaking in May, acknowledged that "procedural frustrations" could prevent more foreign students from enrolling in U.S. programs. "We have to do a better job of attracting them here."


U.S. institutions like to enroll foreign students for several reasons: Undergraduates typically pay higher tuition and aren't eligible for most financial aid, and many universities depend on foreign graduate students to teach classes and staff research labs.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-09-07-grad-schools-foreigners_x.htm

1. I told you I told you! More than two years ago I posted that this would be the result of l Butcher aWo Bush! Witness the destrution of America by the hands of Jesus aWol Bush and Republican Fascist Christian Wrong!

2. I question the financial aid part above. Six out of ten Taiwanese students I talked to going to US colleges had from full to half tuition grants, (NOT LOANS!)

3. Does the above "18% drop in admissions" means foreign students or total students?

[poliguru]

1. I'm not surprised

A huge percentage of foreign students coming to the US to study are from the Middle East and Asia, both areas that have been labeled likely places for terrorists to come from. Increased screening and the general bad reputation the US has earned itself in those areas bound to have an effect.

Unfortunately, I don't think our C-student-in-chief is going to care to much about what universities have to say. They're all liberals, after all.

[lebkuchen]

2. Yep

If there is a chance one might get sent to Syria to be tortured just for entering a country (the US) to receive an education, why bother attempting to enter that country?

Tourism must really be down.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

3. The USCIS has become a bigger mess than ever

going from name changes of INS, to BCIS, and now to USCIS, from the U.S. Department of Justice to the new Department Of Homeland Security. Everything has slowed down with the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service. They have provided more convenient 1-800 numbers for people to check on their cases. Yet, these numbers ring only at a centralized office in the U.S. where the USCIS Information Officers do not have the file, have only a bare bones description of the case on their computers, can't generally answer questions, and it is impossible to contact anyone at one of the four regional service centers. They've completely done away with the ombudsmen programs whereby attorneys used to be able to take care of glitches in the system by calling a special officer inside the service centers. And now for the cases filed at USCIS District Offices, they move the files around from one department to another. The problem with this is that THEY DO NOT LOG IN THE INTENDED DESTINATION OF A CASE ONCE IT HAS LEFT A DEPARTMENT! Therefore, they do not know where a case has gone until the receiving department decides to act on it. I had a client's case in limbo for a year and a half after a final interview (which took 3 years to reach in itself) and finally, after conducting 7 inquiries that sometimes took all day, I finally got them to find the file. It had been mistakenly dismissed and placed in an inactive archive. The level of competency has definitely dropped at the USCIS.

And the individuals who are moving US science and engineering forward, the foreign students from China, Taiwan, Japan, India and Europe, who are writing the bulk of scientific papers, are running into a wall at the USCIS. Cases that previously went through with no problems are now being challenged left and right for trivial reasons. Immigration petitions that have already been adjudicated once and approved, with the alien awaiting final adjudication of permanent residence, are now going through second rounds of re-evaluation for no specific reason. The current immigration laws for such important immigration categories as aliens with extraordinary ability, outstanding professors or researchers, aliens with exceptional ability with national interest waivers are written in terms that are far too vague and that allow too much discretion in the USCIS Adjudicating Officer. If the Officers were better trained in the law and required to remain in one adjudicating function for longer periods, they would make more consistent and wiser decisions. But currently, the immigration service is having a meltdown like never before. If the U.S. no longer represents the country of choice for foreign scholars in the sciences and engineering, we are in deep trouble. How many American born students want to major in such fields as metallurgical engineering? I have been told by Deans from Engineering Departments of some of the universities I have represented that their programs might end if the flow of foreign students was significantly diminished.

[CHIMO]

4. U.S. Revokes Visa to One of Europe's Most Influential Islamic Thinkers

AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us. Your response to the attacks on you and to the U.S. government withdrawing the visa for you to teach at the University of Notre Dame.

TARIQ RAMADAN: Yes. You know, when I went first to the American embassy in Switzerland, I gave my file and everything was okay. I went through a two-month clearance procedure. Nothing was on my files. So, to come now with very old allegations, I heard before, you know, ten years ago and saying that this is why now the visa has been revoked is inconsistent, because, you know, to say for example, he is the grandson of Hassan Al Bana. I was the grandson of Hassan al Bana last May when I received the first visa. So I think there is nothing new in all of this. What I am saying to all of the directors, I'm telling them, look if you have something to say or allegations, come with the evidence. Because if you don't have evidence, I'm not going to follow you in a very, very bad way, you know. You are acting against the dignity of your mind, and you're acting against the dignity of my person. So if you don't have evidences, I'm not going to waste my time with this. And I know that I have nothing to do with terrorists. I criticize and I condemn every kind of terrorist from the very beginning, and this was 15 years ago I started to be very critical towards all of the radical movements. There is nothing new in my file. So up to now, so far, we have no explanation why I was denied entering the United States.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/08/1423209

[barb162]

5. on number 2

is the US giving grants or Taiwan giving the grants. If we are giving the grants, WHY? Taiwan is not some poverty-stricken country.

[dArKeR]

6. US colleges are giving US money to foreign students. You didn't know this?

[barb162]

7. no, uh, that does not make me happy

there are a lot of poor people in this country and maybe
their kids should get the grants.

[poliguru]

8. They do

Those grants are the same kind of grant any college student gets as part of their aid package. Typically, if a student is accepted to a school, the school will do everything they can to make sure the tuition is taken care of. They start with federal grants, then state grants, then federal loans, then college money. Since foreign students aren't eligible for the federal and state programs, most of their aid comes from college money. It basically amounts to the college saying, "You can pay this much? OK - we'll take care of the rest." Colleges do this for everyone, and the vast majority of aid money is need-based.

BTW, foreign students often get aid from their home countries as well - sometimes a significant amount. Those countries figure it's a good investment.

[Bill McBlueState]

9. besides

Besides, how many Americans even *apply* to grad school in the sciences? Quite a few, but certainly not enough to give departments the teaching and research support they need. It's not like Americans are being turned away in droves from top-quality programs.

[barb162]

10. yeah, BUT

shouldn't we make sure a poor kid in this country gets a shot at grad school BEFORE giving it to others. Especially with what is going on with layoffs, unemployment , underemployment, etc. (and pain resulting from that) going on in our own economy? This just isn't sounding right to me at all. Don't even get me going on the subject of losing out scientific edge either.

[poliguru]

12. This isn't even an issue

There aren't poor, qualified Americans being turned away or underfunded from grad programs. It just isn't happening, and for a couple reasons. First, poor people don't apply to grad school, because poor people generally don't have an undergrad degree. And everyone can have a shot at a decent undergrad degree these days. As far as the more selective grad programs go, there are still enough that anyone qualified for grad studies can get into a program. Universities have expanded programs based on demand - so there are plenty of spots for Americans AND foreign services. And pretty much every grad student but the rich gets some form of aid. Admitting foreign students and giving them money does not affect American students in any way except positively.

[MUSTANG_2004]

33. I agree, but don't see a problem cutting back now

While most of the foreign students in my grad school were Chinese with limited English who stayed apart from the rest of us, the ones who didn't were "Americanized" to some extent. They were likable, worked hard and generally contributed positively. I think it's a good idea to bring in foreign students.

That said, considering the extent of the Sept 11 terrorist attack, and that it was conducted by foreigners here on student visas, I think it wise to curtail the practice somewhat for the moment.

[kutastha]

56. Similar experience

I had a similar experience when I was in graduate school. Representatives from my department used to go to China for the express purpose of recruiting Chinese students to enroll in the PhD-level biochemistry program at my school. I entered into a class of 12 students, 9 of whom arrived from China a week before. Indeed, they were all of outstanding intelligence, though as you mentioned, of limited English. My main problem with this is that, once most of them graduated with a PhD and an excellent education paid for by NIH funding, they returned to China to continue their research, I found this quite unfortunate.

[sadiesworld]

14. Read the actual article.

It states that foreign students are NOT eligible for most types of financial aid. Not sure what people are arguing on this thread, or why.

[Bill McBlueState]

18. undergrads vs grads

Undergraduate international students aren't generally eligible for aid, I don't think. But graduate students from other countries typically get the same tuition waivers, assistantships and benefit packages as domestic graduate students. In fact at, UMass, the graduate employees' collective bargaining agreement explicitly forbids discrimination based on national origin.

Aid from the school should be distinguished from federal aid, however. National funding agencies (the NSF and NASA in astronomy for example) typically restrict eligibility for direct aid to US citizens. Of course, a non-citizen can work for a faculty member who has a grant from one of those organizations.

The difference is that, unlike undergraduates, graduate students are considered employable "talent" because of their teaching and research skills, and schools want to do whatever they can to attract the best talent regardless of national origin.

[barb162]

15. okay, for the sake of argument

( whatever that's worth) whatever money is available for these grants, still use them for people here in some way rather than giving it away to people from other countries, especially countries that are not poverty-stricken. As the middle class here is getting squeezed, slammed, broken, laid off, use this to buy books for undergrad kids here whose parents are laid off, whose houses are being foreclosed, etc. Make the grants available to kids whose parents once worked at Lucent, the airlines, anywhere in Ohio, etc.

[sadiesworld]

17. I assume you are responding to my post.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I'm one of those old-fashioned dems who believe that our government's first priority is the citizens of the US.

My point was simply that I don't think there is that much aid going to foreign students. In fact, the article points to the loss of foreign tuition revenue as being one of the problems with this trend.

[poliguru]

20. They already have all those grants for US kids

You underestimate how much money universities have to play with. When I was a single mom in college, I got everything I needed, believe me.

[DulceDecorum]

16. Foreign exchange

Many countries have restrictions on how much money someone can take out of the country in a month or a year.

If you come from such a country you may find that you are only allowed say, to take out 100,000 currency units per year. This is a lot of money in your country UNTIL you change it into US dollars when it miraculously shrinks down to $1,000.

As you well know, $1,000 is nowhere near enough to pay for one years worth of college. So the foreigner is given a scholarship. The feds feeling is that they have screwed that nation pretty badly as is so they give one guy a break and hope he becomes a US citizen and keeps his educated self over here.

When these visa restrictions first went into play, college administrators and casino owners went ballistic. Colleges are shutting down programs like you would not believe and hotels are closing like there is no tomorrow.

The whole thing is very shortsighted.
Suppose one insisted that women stay at home and not go out on the street. Well, you might just get your June Cleaver/Donna Reed heaven, but who the heck is going to buy groceries or pick up the kids from school?
You just screwed yourself. Like the Bushniks did when they cracked down on foreign students.

[struggle4progress]

58. And many stay here and are very productive after earning degrees. eom

[yellowcanine]

11. Who is going to teach all the labs and discussion sections?

If it weren't for foreign grad students, a lot of math and science sections would have to be closed at major universities - meaning fewer students could sign up per class - meaning the students are going to get pissed and go elsewhere.

[MUSTANG_2004]

13. Professors?

Instead of abdicating their teaching responsibilities for the freshmen/sophomore classes, maybe the professors could actually do some teaching for a change.

As a former grad student TA one of the things I didn't like to see was that the freshmen's first exposure to college math and science was from a 23 year old grad student for whom teaching was the lowest priority.

[silverpatronus]

21. the majority of professors at my school (howard u)...

are internationals. ESPECIALLY in the maths and science departments, but also in departments like history and sociology. it's a running joke on campus that there isn't a single professor in the maths department for whom english is a first language. it's true that without internationals, a lot of the maths/science programs are the first thing to go.

i also resent the implication that internationals aren't worthy of college money. i'm an international student, and i earned my scholarship from howard u. i would not have been able to afford to go to college ANYWHERE without some kind of scholarship. the federal and state money goes to the citizens and permanent residents, which is as it should be. the schools can give their money to whomever they think most deserves it.

[DrWeird]

28. Better hire more professors.

Because a single professor might be able to lecture 500 students per class, but it'd be a bit of a stretch for him to do all the recitations, grading, and handle all the labs by himself.

[MUSTANG_2004]

29. How about have them teach full time?

When I was in college and grad school, I never saw a professor teach more than three classes a semester. While that number's fine if they're all senior-level or grad classes, for those teaching the first/second year courses, they should be able to handle more.

[DrWeird]

30. How many classes do you teach per semester?

That's a pretty full load.

[MUSTANG_2004]

31. None.

Since I'm not a professor. But I've worked 60+ hours a week while teaching a night class at a local college and can say that three such classes would not have compared to my regular work-load.

Teaching is a lot of work, but much less so after you've taught the class. I was a TA and found that the prep-work is 90% of the battle. Once you've taught a class a few times, it's much easier. That's why I differentiated between the senior level/grad classes and the 1st/2nd year classes.

[Bill McBlueState]

35. more than three 1st or 2nd year courses?

It's the first and second year courses that suck up all your time. Upper-level classes often have only a handful of people taking them, and those students are pretty self-motivated already. It's dealing with sections of 300 freshmen that takes hours of prep, grading, and meetings with students.

At large state colleges, the professors are expected to spend equal amounts of time on research and teaching. When you're teaching three huge classes at a time, there really isn't any time for research. And since (at least in the sciences) the professors' training is in research, not teaching, it's sort of a waste of resources to have them doing nothing but teaching.

Having said that, it also sucks to have unexperienced TAs teaching important classes. The "A" stands for "assistant," after all. What they really need to do is to create an atmosphere where professors who are good at teaching are encouraged to teach, and those who are good at research are encouraged to do research, meeting their teaching requirement by mentoring student researchers rather than by handling huge lecture classes. The 50/50 requirement doesn't fit any individual very well.

[struggle4progress]

59. The idea behind having faculty do original research is that ...

... the students will then learn modern cutting-edge ideas. People who "teach full time" can't keep up with the field and in fact can't do much except repeat antique notions year after year.

In my experience, many of the people who "teach full time" at the university level are simply punching the clock for forty hour weeks, while the researchers are working sixty or eighty hours a week trying to keep up.

[lovuian]

19. I think its about time the US Colleges started

teaching Americans because we are teaching our competitors

Because we are teaching our competitors...

Its reality

[Bridget Burke]

23. US Colleges teach plenty of Americans.

It would be good if undergraduate education was more affordable for qualified Americans. But that's not the issue here.

The issue is graduate school in the "hard" subjects--sciences, math, etc. Many American students would rather get their MBA's. But the foreign students are not afraid of those subjects, & they pay their way by teaching & doing research. Although many of them return to their home countries, others remain to become intelligent, educated American citizens.

[barb162]

27. not only that we are helping them along

by firing our own highly educated techies and sending work elsewhere. Our techies are working Home Depot part-time.We are basically giving away our technology.

[Bridget Burke]

39. How many microbiologists are working at Home Depot?

Physicists?

These students are not Java Programmers. (Actually, some of them are; but their profession is in the sciences.)

[barb162]

41. I know a fair number of people with masters and doctorates

in tech (like programming, systems) who are now working at Home Depot, the grocery, etc., part-time. Their jobs went to Asia.

[barb162]

42. and I forgot to mention the engineering fields

[demoman123]

22. Meanwhile, Britain is making grad school more attractive for foreigners

"The Observer investigation has also revealed that university staff are being put under increasing pressure to pass foreign students studying for masters' degrees because the income is keeping many universities afloat.

"Since the mid-1990s, the number of foreign graduates coming to Britain has risen from nearly 7,000 to more then 33,000. The income from non-EU foreign students is estimated at £600 million."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1273840,00.html

[silverpatronus]

24. that's because non-EU students in the UK...

pay TEN TIMES AS MUCH IN TUITION! i was looking into UK schools for my degree, and got into 3 of my 4 picks, but had to abandon the idea because while tuition for UK/EU nationals was like 1,000 per term, for non-UK/EU nationals it was 10,000! the pound sterling is worth almost 11 trinidad and tobago dollars, and UK schools don't give scholarships like US schools do.

i understand that yes, foreigners should pay more, but TEN TIMES AS MUCH IN THE STRONGEST CURRENCY ON THE PLANET? you've got to be kidding me...

[demoman123]

26. Wow! n/t

[Bhaisahab]

25. I advise anybody who is sitting for GMAT/GRE

to consider Europe instead of the USA. The US has become a real scary, Orwellian state. Maybe that's the way Bush/Cheney like it. Too bad they are men of shitty intellect.

[lovuian]

32. I suggest Foreign Students go to Germany England but not US

Its a matter of our education system has gotten to dependant on them
and as a result has discouraged US kids...if they don't have these students they are going to HAVE to start recruiting better and give US kids incentives to do this......

Its about TIme as for as I'm concern

[silverpatronus]

34. foreign students...

provide an expanded worldview and international competition. we bring different viewpoints and perspectives to the table. i believe that we hold value for institutions of learning, which is why we are welcomed there. if US kids are discouraged, don't blame it on foreign students.

[struggle4progress]

60. What a terrible attitude! Foreign students are great for the US.

Many stay and bring real intellectual gifts to our country. Others go home, creating overseas friendships, international understanding, and good public relations for the US.

[Bill McBlueState]

36. Good news for those of you who appreciate

Good news for those of you who appreciate international students' contribution to our academic institutions:

---

AMHERST - The University of Massachusetts will comply with an arbitrator's decision and eliminate the $65 international student fee the Graduate Employee Organization has been fighting since the fall.

An arbitrator with the American Arbitration Association ruled two weeks ago the fee was discriminatory and ordered the university to stop charging the fee to graduate student employees and to refund the per-semester fee to students who had already paid it. The university announced yesterday it has decided not to appeal the ruling.

"While we disagree with the conclusion reached by the arbitrator, we respect the process of arbitration and will comply with the arbitrator's decision," said Chancellor John V. Lombardi in a prepared statement. "As a matter of fairness, we also decided that we should take an additional step and end the fee for all international students."

---

more at http://www.masslive.com/hampfrank/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-5/109307449380412.xml

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

47. Thanks for the update

It's a little strange getting the UMass news first from DU.

Hi from another UMass Grad (Computer Science) :hi:

[GizDog]

37. great

Now more Americans can attend.

[Bridget Burke]

40. Nothing is preventing Americans from going out for the hard sciences....

Except their wish to study something a little more, you know, easier.

[DrWeird]

43. Yeah, if they weren't busy watching Buffy.

The reason there are so many international students in grad schools is because there aren't enough Americans who want to do it. Because they're either lazy or stupid or both.

And I'm an American grad student in a hard science.

[poliguru]

45. A caveat...

I would like to point out that not ALL grad students who study things other than science are stupid, lazy, or both. Some of us just enjoy other things, like the social sciences. I would also like to point out that grad studies in the social sciences isn't necessarily "easy." My husband, who is in med school, took a class in religion and ethics that kicked his butt. He said it was one of the hardest classes he's ever taken. And he's an extremely intelligent med student who has studied and researched both hard science and qualitative studies.

I think a lot of times the social sciences get a bad rap as "soft." I just had to defend myself and my brethren. I chose social sciences not because I couldn't do the science, but because I like it more. The US is more of a social science/liberal arts society - the sciences are emphasized much more in some other countries.

[Piltdown13]

48. Thank you!!

One of my pet peeves is folks who believe that social science researchers are just those who "couldn't hack it" in the natural sciences. I'm an anthropologist not because I'm too stupid to be a biochemist, for instance, but because the questions asked in anthropology just happen to interest me more. And as far as "lazy," I have to say -- no lazy person is going to be happy in any of the social sciences I've had any experience with, at least not if they hope to practice the science successfully.

Oddly, as an anthropologist of the archaeological flavor (and a human origins specialist to boot, with a foot in both camps) I find that certain individuals on both sides of the (admittedly somewhat artificial) "hard/soft" science divide are equally shortsighted and intolerant of those on the other side. Some hard-science types denigrate archaeology for not being sufficiently scientific, while some "pure" social science folks attack us for being "too scientific about things that really can't be adequately measured in a quantitative sense" (i.e., human behavior). Fortunately, this sort of attitude is becoming less prevalent with the increasing emphasis on more interdisciplinary studies. Ultimately, the only way to eradicate those ideas completely, IMHO, is for us social scientists to open dialogues with our natural science colleagues (and vice versa), thereby allowing those with open minds on both sides to gain some understanding of the rigors and value of the research being done throughout the sciences. Geologists and archaeologists have been doing this for decades, so there's a model ready to be emulated! :-)

[silverpatronus]

49. i have never gotten the feeling...

from any of my peers or colleagues that there is a natural-science-is-harder-than-social-science view. i've taken classes in both that whupped my butt equally, just different sides of my butt. i don't think that any TRULY intelligent person would malign any social science in that way.

[Piltdown13]

50. Perhaps not from most academic colleagues...

But hell, there are even comments on this thread that imply that natural sciences are harder than social sciences! It's true, most people are beyond that mindset, but my anecdotal experience has been that there are still some who cling to it. And it only takes a few to create headaches for everyone.

Edited for clarity.

[MountainLaurel]

53. In college

I started a flame war as a columnist in the student newspaper when I wrote an editorial about the extent to which people assumed you were less intelligent if you weren't in a hard science. (My school had a very strong engineering program.) Two events spurred my writing this column. One was a neighbor, after my telling her that I had decided to major in journalism, telling me "But you're so smart, why would you waste it like that." The other was an argument between two coworkers in which one insisted that the A in his engineering course was worth more than her A in sculpture.

Afterward, at least 10 friends from the music program came up to tell me that they had sent my column to their parents, because they'd been hearing for years that music was a waste of their brain power.

[Piltdown13]

54. Oh, that bias is definitely out there

It's not quite as prevalent once you hit the grad level (or maybe the biases mutate into more sophisticated/subtle forms), but it's quite noticeable among undergrads (and the general population as well). Every semester I've taught, I've encountered students who signed up for my class because they thought it would be easy, and are almost offended to discover that study and hard work are required to succeed -- "I signed up because anthro sounded easier than <insert alternative here>, etc." And my own father informed me that my planned undergrad major in journalism was, and I quote, "a waste of your intellect," as if somehow intelligent people have a duty to become engineers or physicians.

[DrWeird]

51. Of course.

There are plenty of people in the "hard sciences" who would denegrate social sciences and other fields of study, but I am not one of them; my mother, in fact, is a tenured professor of Classical Studies. I cannot speak for these fields, but there is a real shortage of grad student applicants for the hard sciences from the US as compared to overseas, and I have no doubt it's tied to the fact that science and math is neglected and underappreciated by schools and the public in general. I am not upset that people would seek more liberal arts, but that not enough people choose hard sciences instead of not going to grad school at all.

[amazona]

52. i resent this

I was an American grad student in a hard science (physics). I did not finish because the conditions were unsupportable -- pay, for instance, was $3,000 a year. OK, this was the 80s but what is it up to now? $10K a year? Americans can't live on that. Maybe a foreign student with a foreign gov't bankrolling him can, but how do I compete with that and still maintain my health? I have to sleep. I was a magnum cum laude as an undergrad so I suspect that I am not lazy or stupid although you are always free to disagree without knowing anything about me.

It seems to me we make a point of turning American citizens away from science for whatever reason. Indeed, there is now short-term profit in state gov'ts not teaching even basic math, since so many of them rely on lottery to fund education.

I realize there is a small proportion of people who can work 18 hours a day and sleep 4 hours a night and survive, but as I am not Martha Stewart and only a tiny proportion of Americans are, I don't think it's quite fair to call people lazy/stupid for not doing what is physically impossible for most to do.

[Piltdown13]

55. The pay is a little more than that now, but hardly a princely sum

And it's definitely especially tough on folks who have a family to support. I don't have the exact numbers, but from what I've heard, even the natural science grads at my institution make less than $13k a year for AI (teaching assistant) and other academic appointee positions; in the social sciences, it's generally somewhere between $10 and $11k. It's theoretically possible to live on that amount, but it's tough, at least in my town, where the rental market is almost predatory, among other things (the expenses in my town are somewhat out of line with what I've seen of costs in the rest of the state, but the pay doesn't exactly reflect that). I've found that even as a single person, I've often ended up with more credit card debt than I'm comfortable with -- it only takes one or two unexpected expenses to overextend you. Given such issues, it's hardly surprising how many students are unable to finish their degrees.

I could go on and on, but maybe it's better to stop ranting now. :-)

[varun]

38. Most foreign grad students in Sciences / Engineering

get some financial aid from U.S. Universities in the form of T.A. (teaching assistantships) or R.A. (Research Assistantships). These are paid positions, and they have to work, and show results. These positions are also competitive. In some schools, only 15-20% of the students who apply for these assitantships get them.

Foreign students doing MBA usually do not get these assistantships.

Why?

Because there are enough Americans applying for MBAs, and not enough applying for grad school in Sciences / Engineering.

[tom_paine]

44. The 800 lb. elephant in the room

Now that Amerika is not a Free Country, anymore, and less and less of the Old Nation remains every day, the numbers of foreigners coming here seeking freedom has diminished because more and more are seeing it is a LIE or seeing the degrees of seperation dropping between Amerika and Commie China or wherever they happen to live, it probably isn't worth it anymore.

So for more and more simple avarice is the reason, and I would imagine immigration especially from Free World nations is dropping fast, too.

Because unless there were other rewards, why move to a Tyrannical Nation (or in our case, rapidly trending towards it) from a Free Nation.

THAT is the 800 lb. elephant in the room and as Amerika continues to become more of a Sovietized Third-World sham with a Third-World Justice System, a Third-World Voting System, and a Thrid-World Media, it will get worse.

And the Pravda Whores will have to stretch further to come up with rationalizations as to why it is happening.

[lovuian]

46. I agree Tom.....America isn't the Open place it use to be

and foreign students probably know this

America needs to start getting incentives for Americans to get involved in the Sciences...

and I'm tired of Hearing how American students are lazy and dumb

thats Bull

They can compete with any student in the world if they were given a fair playing field

But they haven't been

Bush wants Dumb Americans

I'm totally ready for Americans to take back their colleges and Let these colleges in America start educating Our children

We are creating our own monster here....

[struggle4progress]

61. It's not that American students are dumb: it's that any young person ...

... who transports himself/herself overseas to study is probably more energetic, organized, and motivated than the typical student.

[struggle4progress]

57. This will cost US much intellectual capital in coming years. eom