US soldiers in Iraq say 1,000 death toll meaningless

[G_j]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040907/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_toll_troops_040907205153

US soldiers in Iraq say 1,000 death toll meaningless


BAQUBA, Iraq (AFP) - The deaths of 1,000 American troops in Iraq (news - web sites) since the 2003 invasion to topple Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) has only strengthened US resolve to restore security to the strife-torn country, soldiers said.


Dismissing parallels with the 1961-75 war in Vietnam, officers lashed out at the media for playing the grim-reaper over the mounting casualty toll and failing to appreciate the sacrifices made by each soldier.


"It sucks. The newspapers glorify it. Everyday, reporting the numbers going up and up, trying to push a point," said Captain Gregory Wingard, 39, at the 1st Infantry Division's Camp Warhorse near Baquba, north of Baghdad.


<snip>
"There's one word you have to push back at them. Gettsburg: 63,000 killed in a single day," said Sergeant Kimberly Snow, 35, from Ohio, refering to the US civil war battle.

..more..
----

Gettysburg ??? why not compare the death count to Hiroshima?
ONE death is too many!

edit: deleted a bit of harsh language on my part, although it was deserved.

[RevCheesehead]

1. And here I thought it was "Gettysburg."

[Cha]

6. Silly us~

:silly:

[clydefrand]

12. Shows you how wrong you can be for sooooooooooo

many years! They need a proofreader for that article.
Excuse me, that tease was for RevCheesehead. What an interesting name! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[SOS]

97. Strange stuff here

The link indicates AFP, but it's not an AFP story.
After signing in to Yahoo, the link takes you to a completely different AP story on the 1,000 death toll reached yesterday. This article doesn't seem to exist as an AP or AFP story.
Other oddities:
The "Gettsburg" casualty figure is wrong.
Several words are spelled incorrectly including "refering" and "loose" for "lose" which is a common RW misspelling.
Is there a direct link to this article available?
Where did Yahoo get this amateur claptrap?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Not only that, but the actual number of those killed in action during....

...that three-day battle was actually 6,000-7,000...roughly 3,500 for each side. The Confederate dead were buried basically where they fell, or where they later died from their wounds in field hospitals. The Union dead were buried in a military cemetery dedicated by Lincoln during which he gave the famous "Gettysburg Address".

The total number of casualties for the Battle of Gettysburg was a little over 50,000, causing every single structure in the area to become a field hospital. When the Confederates retreated from the Gettysburg area, they were forced to leave behind the most severely wounded.

[Krupskaya]

2. Officers say this, officers say that...

What are the grunts saying? Just curious. I'm sure it doesn't bother them, either. :rolleyes:

[Rose Siding]

16. One more way it's like Vietnam

As I recall, officers were pretty gung ho then.

[Jacobin]

69. Yes they were. The term "fragging" was invented and perfected in

Vietnam.

I wonder how many years it will be before that particular practice returns

[Jacobin]

17. EGGGZACTLY

The officers are all holed up behind blast walls and send the grunts out to get killed.

No skin off their behinds. Oh, btw, what the fuck do you think they'd say? If they said anything different, they'd be court martialed.

(not you, of course, the hypothetical 'you')

:-)

[Texas.45]

22. Actually, officers in the military, especially junior officers

have the highest per capita deaths in the military. Officers lead from the front. I have several friends in Iraq and they also complain about how the media here always portrays the bad and never anything good.

[luaneryder]

26. What's good about 1000 meaningless deaths?

[Texas.45]

43. Nothing

but the soldiers are saying that 1) they dislike how the media is portraying only the negative side of the war and 2) that in perspective that the casulty figures are low for Iraq. I am not saying I agree, this is just what I took from the article.

[yardwork]

44. Feel free to share some good news from Iraq

[luaneryder]

52. Typical

You ask them for some of the much vaunted good news coming out of Iraq and they go suddenly silent or scurry back to where they came from.

[Maeve]

71. Ah, cut him some slack! He can't answer anymore

But he is back under his rock--

[grasswire]

84. well.....

....how odd it is that your friends in Iraq are repeating the talking points Rush Limbaugh lays out in his daily screed. Maybe they ought to listen to Air America for a while to get some balance.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

86. Sure

.45 caliber

What good stuff?

Oh yea building schools, bridges, and mending fences.

Total Bullshit.

Remember what the Russians used to tell their people was going on in Afghanistan in the 80s.

It resulted in the fall of an empire.

Please don't believe the hype it's a sequel.

[LynnTheDem]

36. Who told you this???

"Officers lead from the front"?

Maybe NON-COM officers, yes they do. But commissioned officers such as this captain? NO.

Take a look at the ranks listed on the ICC & compare how many officers to grunts have been killed;

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[Jacobin]

67. Please STOP IT. NO FACTS, PLEASE!!

"It's only the officers getting shot up. They go to the front lines to protect the grunts. All is going well in IraqNam. They love the occupation and soon will have an elected government of Jeffersonian principles. They all have cable TV and will soon have McDonalds"

(whew, I feel better now.)

[LynnTheDem]

68. But but but...

I LIKE FACTS!!!

So THERE!!! pppppppppppppp!

[acmavm]

60. Read this and tell me what the grunts in the midst of all the flying

bullets and schrapnel are saying:

<snip>

I had made the very same trip in February, cutting classes to spend my brother's two weeks' leave from Baghdad with him. Little did I know then that the next time I saw him would be at Arlington National Cemetery. During those days in February, my brother shared with me his fear, his disillusionment, and his anger. "We had all been led to believe that Iraq posed a serious threat to America as well as its surrounding nations," he said. "We invaded expecting to find weapons of mass destruction and a much more prepared and well-trained Republican Guard waiting for us. It is now a year later, and alas, no weapons of mass destruction or any other real threat, for that matter."

Ryan was scheduled to complete his one-year assignment to Iraq on April 25. But on April 11, he emailed me to let me know not to expect him in Atlanta for a May visit, because his tour of duty had been involuntarily extended. "Just do me one big favor, ok?" he wrote. "Don't vote for Bush. No. Just don't do it. I would not be happy with you."

<snip>
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090604A.shtml
FOCUS: Sgt. Campbell's Sister: A Soldiers Last Request

Why is it guys like you can sit here safe and sound and know EXACTLY what those who are doing the fighting feel? Just curious. Because I've read lots of letters written by these guys, and they are not thrilled to be there.

Anyone still have that article from Truthout with the title something about "The Writing on the Shit House Walls". That was one heck of an article about how the troops really feel.

[Ms. Clio]

63. Still waiting for your good news from Iraq (what you hear on Fox

doesn't count).

Ask the people in Fallujah today about all the good news in their city.

Funny how we always have these folks who claim they know people who know people who know how great everything is in Iraq and it's just becoming a veritable paradise under the U.S.'s benevolent guidance, but they can never link to anything, it's always hearsay.

On edit: Never mind, just another tombstoned troll--I really should have known, it's not like we don't get the same shit over and over gain from these people.

[Skittles]

90. LOL

please tell us what is good about invading a country and bombing the f*** out of them, looking for WMD that don't exist. DO TELL.

[independentpiney]

98. Officers have their heads emptied and refilled with propaganda

It takes some a long time to see through it, and some never do. Hence the not so Swifties.

[nolabels]

96. This is one thing that is worst things about the military and enlisting

These smarmy military officers, about half of them or so. These are the mostly college grad punks that didn't live the economic draft of the grunts they are working around. This is one of the weakest links in the modern US military. A lot these guys on top ranks are clueless for the average grunt. Yea, war is hell but some get more hell than others.

If they did an anonymous survey of lower ranks of the enlisted I am sure they would get a much different result to report on for this story

[Texas.45]

24. Here are what the grunts are saying

"There's one word you have to push back at them. Gettsburg: 63,000 killed in a single day," said Sergeant Kimberly Snow, 35, from Ohio, refering to the US civil war battle". See how this was a SGT? SGT's are NCOs and are pretty much the barrometer for how grunts feel.

[RetroLounge]

31. Well, then that grunt should check her facts

and so should you.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/gettysburg/getty4.aspx

Enjoy your stay.

RL

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

32. Harry Truman once accused the Marines of having better propaganda

Than the Russians during the beginnings of the cold war.

"If I was to get killed tomorrow by an IED, I would not regret coming over here," said Captain Michael Adams, 37, from Oregon.

Sorry, that sounds like bluster for his comrades in arms. Hey, anyone stuck over there would be wanting to believe they are there for all the right reasons. It's called group-think. They are hearing nothing but the positives and gung-ho blather from all their higher ups, what else would they be saying?

1000 dead are a lot of people. 12,000 dead Iraqi non-combatant women children and civilian men are even more.

It's a lot of fucking death to free these people who didn't ask to be freed. It's a lot of fucking death to have been caused by greed shrouded in lies of threat and purported humanitarian reasons.

America will hang her head in shame years from now when truth rises from the cesspool this administration has filled.

[LynnTheDem]

38. Sounds like

we have a rightwingnut in our midst, coz no that isn't what the grunts are saying but it sure is what the freepers are saying.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

47. Damn! Ya' got me!

Hehe :toast:

[LynnTheDem]

56. I did???

COOL, a bonus! Coz it wasn't you I was trying to got. LOL! ;)

[Ms. Clio]

66. Uh, I wouldn't take that too seriously, since it's spelled Gettysburg

and it wasn't 63,000 killed.

That's some lame ass propaganda, there.

[deutsey]

95. Here's what one grunt is writing from Iraq in his blog

http://www.optruth.com/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=hear&htmlId=1044

Only The Dead Have Seen the End of War

Below is a post from a soldier currently serving in Iraq. He describes here one of the small tragedies that occurs everyday. His blog has developed a huge following on the internet, as more and more people check in for his honest, well-written perspective on the Iraq war. Make sure to check out all of his posts: http://cbftw.blogspot.com/


Sunday, July 04, 2004


Only The Dead Have Seen The End Of War


I spoke with an Army Captain the other day who was telling me that the Global Security civilian Contractors who work here in Iraq with us are referred to as: "Black Death" by the locals downtown. He was telling me a story about one time they killed like 46 people one time or something. A lot of those guys that do the civilain contracted security work are ex special forces, cops, whatever. You know, action hero job perfessions. They all wear a bullet proof vest over there civilian cloths, a baseball hat, beards, and carry some sort of automatic weapon. I personally think these guys are insane doing the stuff that they do. These guys are always getting fucked up out here as well. Check out globalsecurity.com for more info on them.

I will never forget the time when we were leaving the main gate of our FOB , and I was manning the machine gun out of the back airguard hatch to our vehicle, when a red SUV started honking its horn as it tried to race past us thru the gategate, there was bullet holes all over it, the windshield, the sides. Everywhere. I remember thinking to myself: Holy shit, how can anybody survive an attack like that? I'll never forget the look on that drivers face when he was yelling "GET THE FUCK OUTTA THE WAY!" as they drove past us. I cant explain it. When they got passed us I saw that the back window was completely blown to bits and there was an individual laying down, completely covered in his own blood. He looked alive, but barely. After they passed us, we drove off to go where we had to go, and I kept on thinking, holy shit, I wondered what the fuck happened to them.

Less than 5 minutes after that we were driving down a busy street in mosul when I saw a white SUV parked all crooked up on the middle divide. When we got closer I observed a lifeless body sitting in the drivers seat, with the seatbelt still on him. It was a global security guy. The vehicle, to me, did not look as shot up as the red SUV, but it was still covered in bullet holes, windows blown out, and there was fresh red blood splattered all over the white paint of the vehicle. Fuck. We stopped the vehicle and dismounted to pull local 360 security around the SUV and to stop traffic. I looked around and realized that we were almost in the same location where we got attacked by a RPG several weeks ago.

Our combat medic slapped on his latex gloves and started to begin the process of putting him in a body bag and separating his shit. The guy looked late 20's, maybe early 30's to me. Clean cut, athletic build. There was still fresh blood dripping from his face. Directly across the street was a major gas station, lots of cars lined up to get gas. My team leader ran around frantically with a interprator, to see if anybody saw anything or knows anything about what just happened. Of course, nobody fucking talked. Typical. Helicopters were now hovering overhead. Air support.

What is interesting about all this was when our medic was putting his body in a body bag, and separating this guys personal belongings, he discovered that he had on him, a letter of resignation, and he also had on him a one way airplane ticket back to London, where he was from.

[nolabels]

109. Sounds like a normal gangster stand off to me

The people who know something will never say nothing no matter if they thought it bad or good when conditions are so terrible. Much like many of the people who find solace in supporting GOP. More afraid of what the knowlege of what the truth might bring than the truth its self.



http://nyc.indymedia.org/media/all/display/18147/index.php?limit_start=780

[atreides1]

99. Not Really

I was an NCO and NCO's are not always a barometer for how the grunts feel. When you take into consideration that most grunts are not allowed to express an opinion, and if they do it's usually done under the table.

[rinsd]

107. I don't know if she's a barometer......

I also think she is citing the wrong Civil War battle. Or maybe she was thinking of Verdun in WW1?

[rinsd]

106. Actually if you read the article, it's not all officers....(nt)

[Cha]

3. They didn't interview the Soldiers who

Don't think it's "Meaningless"!!

THis is all Propoganda Bullshit!

Stupid bush followers who don't mind dying for no other than his bushit invasion so he could be a war pres(sic)!!

[luaneryder]

28. You are absolutely correct

I was enlisted and with the Public Affairs Office at Ft. Bragg. Everything that came out of a soldiers mouth was vetted by us first. If a soldier said something without prior approval you can bet your ass they got burned for it.

[daleo]

4. The story sounds like it was written by a Pentagon flack

Out and out propaganda, through and through.

[Inland]

5. Gettysburg. Great example--of idiot, needless bloodletting

for evil causes prettied up with high sounding slogans, leading to defeat and destruction of your side, despite the admanant belief God was on it.

After all, this soldier doesn't think that the south had a cause worth dying for, does he? Doesnt' he realize that there can be a losing side, a wrong side, in every war and Bush has put us on that side?

Gettysburg, indeed. Is that what he is looking forward to? Is that what Bush has in store?

[jumpstart33]

7. These are desparate people who are sincerely trying to find meaning in

violence of which they are a part. they can't come home, they can't not fight so what do you expect from them? I feel so sorry for them. My heart aches and my head does too. I wonder how many soldiers said this? Or is it a quote from one RW Rambo who won't be satisfied until at least 2,000 are killed? Even if he doesn't value his own life and the lives of his comrads, I do. Bring the children home. Please bring them home!

[G_j]

13. my heart also breaks, a thousand times over

those deaths are not "meaningless".
No, I don't think most soldiers in Iraq would say this, if they were allowed to speak the truth.

[clydefrand]

8. Has this man been taking logic lessons from Bush?

"Every single soldier knows the risk. You do the best you can with your day and don't think about it. If I was to get killed tomorrow by an IED, I would not regret coming over here," said Captain Michael Adams, 37, from Oregon.


I dare say he wouldn't regret going over there if he were killed, but I'll bet his loved ones would regret it even though they might not publicly voice that. But you know in their hearts they would regret it; and if they don't, then they don't give a damn about him.

[unslinkychild1]

85. Oregon needs to

outsource this fuck to TEXAS. OREGON SAYS KERRY FOR PRES, NOT * 4 PREZNIT! Damn, I hate this shit.

Veteran from Oregon for Kerry. (Albeit, female noncombatant--85 to 87)

(btw, I have seen NO */go fuck yerself bumpersticker/yardsigns ANYWHERE)

[hatrack]

9. Sergeant Snow doesn't know much about history

Total casualty count for Gettysburg for three days was about 52,000. Of that total, somewhere around 6,000 were killed outright in battle or died soon after of wounds.

[CRK7376]

10. Young SGT Snow got his facts wrong.....

63,000 were not killed in one day at Gettysburg or even during the whole 3 days combined of Gettysburg. Antietam/Sharpsburg was the single most deadly day of combat during the Civil War in September of 1862....

Our 1001 dead in Iraq is a small number unless he or she was your buddy, on your fireteam, drove your vehicle, was your son/daughter/father/mother etc....Thanks for all the pain Georgie Boy!**&&%%##@!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Of note

it is not right to critize your elders, (UCMJ violation) but it is
alright to praise your elders... I wonder if these troops realize though that they are being used.

[dmr]

14. Propaganda

His (Bush's*) comparisons reeks of desparation to say these things.

Futhermore, the media is not glorifying, nor are they playing the grim reaper. The media isn't reporting/discussing this enough!

[qanda]

15. I guess it's easy to talk about it not meaning anything...

While you're still living and talking. It probably means a lot to the families of those who have died in this stupid, unnecessary war. Idiot!

[number6]

18. lame attempt at positive spin ....

.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. Support Wingard==Support Snow

get them yellow ribbons out and support those who hold our children in such contempt and with such disassociation!

Gettysburg? What the hell is wrong with her?

Jesus--I can't believe such idiots are in charge. Gettysburg? I can't believe it. It happened in 1863--and it is to be brought up as a comparison? Howcome she does not compare it to Vietnam?

[David__77]

20. What do the enlisted men have to say, without an overseer present?

Officers are often the mouthpieces for the "party line." This does not surprise me. Speaking against the party line will result in adverse consequences.

[ElectroPrincess]

25. You got that right David_77

Any Military Officer speaking against the party (US public affairs) line will deep 6 their career in a heartbeat. I often wonder how I would react if I were active duty now. Damn, I don't want to consider that horrible scenario.

[stickdog]

23. Sorry, but thousands of meaningless deaths will always be meaningful.

"Sad as it is for those 1,000 families and their friends, they're nothing to the number of Iraqis that get killed trying to defend their own families," he added, smoking a cigar with friends under the stars.

Yep. But do more meaningless deaths on "their" side than "ours" make everything OK?

[ninkasi]

34. How ironic...

Sad as it is for those 1,000 families and their friends, they're nothing to the number of Iraqis that get killed trying to defend their own families," he added, smoking a cigar with friends under the stars.

So our guys get killed by the Iraqis who are trying to defend their families from us? Wouldn't it be much better to just get the hell out? Then we won't kill any more Iraqis, and they won't kill us.

[bluestateguy]

27. 63,000 killed at Gettysburg?

Pure horseshit. The number of casualties (injuries, killed, missing) was about 52,000 combined. The number of killed was well under 10,000.

[TahitiNut]

57. Bingo! Reichbots INVENT numbers to defend lies.

The highest reputable combined (Union and Confederacy) casualty estimates for Gettysburg were 7,655 killed, 27,330 wounded, and 10,615 missing. That's 45,600 total casualties over the 3 days of battle, not even close to the ignorant, deceitful claim of 63,000 killed in one day. It's total bullshit that any paper would publish this bullshit without a fact-check footnote.

[Stone_Spirits]

88. APF

the news service that this came from, never heard of it.

[TahitiNut]

91. Agence France Press has offices and fact-checkers in the US, too.

I view this as a erosion of the publicly-licensed media in general, abdicating their gatekeeper role as journalists in favor of a role as a Public Relations (i.e. self-serving propaganda) conduit.

Any journalist should be far more wary of those military personnel "made available by their command" for interviews. The military is virtually paranoid about such things, usually pretty sure to keep the "bad apples" under wraps and away from the media.

[G_j]

103. and they can't even spell

this was a verbal quote. How completely lame!

[Maeve]

104. Further down, another error--twice

"Obviously when you loose people, its a tragic time. But you don't loose morale. It strengthens your resolve," said Specialist Robert Bybee, 21, deployed in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit

[G_j]

108. that wouldn't cut it an elementary school newspaper LOL -nt

[PurityOfEssence]

81. Worst single day for deaths in North America was 23,000 at Antietam

Those who don't know history are deployed to repeat it...

[Christof]

82. Yep.

Some people need to go re-read their history lessons...

[PurityOfEssence]

112. That's why conservatives love the past so much:

they don't know anything about it.

A cursory understanding of history would show anybody that Iraq was unwinnable except by massive force and complete subjugation for as long as we stayed there.

[angka]

92. correct...

glad people were on this one -- but you do expect these soldiers to be thoroughly propagandized (or demoralized, which is the point of this piece). change 1,000 to 10,000, and you'll get the same answer, with the same anger --

[maveric]

110. More like 6000.

Soon they'll be comparing the Battle for Iraq,as CNN calls it,to Stalingrad.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

115. You're absolutely right - they're playing with the word "casualties"

The horrendous casualties reported about Civil War battles always include total casualties, which has traditionally been exactly as you describe in your post: wounded, kia, mia, and pow. Suddenly, since the Iraq war began, "casualties" have suddenly come to mean only combat deaths in the theater of war as opposed to wounded, etc. I even wonder if a U.S. soldier's death in a U.S. military hospital in Germany from wounds suffered days or weeks before in Iraq is even being counted.

[ItsMyParty]

29. Okay---let me get this straight by this jackass' logic:

If 1,000 pumps up the troops and makes them even more determined, blah, blah, then maybe Bush should arrange for about 10,000 of them to die asap so that the rest get soooooo pumped up that we burn the place to the ground and declare "VICTORY---we done made them free". You can't argue with assholes 'cause an asshole doesn't have an ear or a brain...........

[Disturbed]

37. Stats

Death and maiming stats of the Occupiers and the Occupied have meaning to those that want them to have meaning or to those that are emotionaly effected. The term "body count" has always stirred something regugnant to my emotion.

I have read this book and at times re-read some passages.

Chris Hedges has been a war reporter for the past 15 years, most recently for The New York Times. His book, War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, is one of the most striking analyses and critiques of what happens to people and societies as they go to war to be published in many years. Writing with a clarity and tone reminiscent of Albert Camus, Hedges unravels the myths and dysfunctional nationalism that grip nations heading to war; the intoxicating effect of these causes and rhetoric; and the terrible costs that soldiers, victims and societies pay -- when the realities of war -- not the rhetoric -- are experienced. He spoke to TomPaine.com's Steven Rosenfeld.

TomPaine.com: When a country prepares for war and goes to war, there are changes in that country’s politics and culture. You write that a myth emerges -- a seductive myth as leaders spin out a cause. You write that a patriotism, a "thinly veiled form of self-worship appears." What do you mean by this myth, this cause, this patriotism and what you then say is an intoxicating result?

Chris Hedges: Well myth is always part of the way we understand war within a society. It’s always there. But I think in a peacetime society we are at least open to other ways of looking at war. Just as patriotism is always part of the society. In wartime, the myth becomes ascendant. Patriotism, national self-glorification infects everything, including culture. That’s why you would go to symphony events and people wave flags and play the "Star Spangled Banner." In essence, it’s the destruction of culture, which is always a prerequisite in wartime. Wartime always begins with the destruction of your own culture. Once you enter a conflict, or at the inception of a conflict, you are given a language by which you speak. The state gives you a language to speak and you can’t speak outside that language or it becomes very difficult. There is no communication outside of the clichés and the jingos, "The War on Terror," "Showdown With Iraq," "The Axis of Evil," all of this stuff. So that whatever disquiet we feel, we no longer have the words in which to express it. The myth predominates. The myth, which is a lie, of course, built around glory, heroism, heroic self-sacrifice, the nobility of the nation. And it is a kind of intoxication. People lose individual conscience for this huge communal enterprise.

TP.c: You write there are different war myths -- myths that fuel conflicts. What type of myth do you see animating the discussion today in the United States as it looks at Iraq?

Hedges: Well I think the myth is remarkably similar from war zone to war zone. At least, as it pertains to how the nation that prosecutes a war looks at itself. We become the embodiment of light and goodness. We become the defenders of civilization, of all that is decent. We are more noble than others. We are braver than others. We are kinder and more compassionate than others -- that the enemy at our gate is perfidious, dark, somewhat inhuman. We turn them into two-dimensional figures. I think that’s part of the process of linguistically dehumanizing them. And in wartime, we always turn the other into an object, and often, quite literally, in the form of a corpse.

TP.c: Where are we in the United States, now, in this progression?

Hedges: Well, we’ve come frightenly far in this process. And this has been a long progression. It began at the end of the Vietnam war. The defeat in Vietnam made us a better nation and a better people. We were forced to step outside our own borders and see how other people saw us. We were forced to accept very unpleasant truths about ourselves -- our own capacity for evil. I think that that process, especially during the Reagan years, or at least that state, began to disintegrate. War once again became fun: Grenada; Panama, culminating in the Persian Gulf War. So that we’re now at a process -- Freud argues that all of life, both for the individual and within human society, is a battle between Eros, or love, and Thanatos, or the death instinct. And that one of these instincts is always ascendant, at one time or another. I think after the Vietnam war, because of the terrible costs that we paid, because of the tragedy that Vietnam was, Eros was ascendant. I think after the Persian Gulf war, where we fell in love with war -- and what is war, war is death -- Thanatos is ascendant. It will, unfortunately, take that grim harvest of dead, that ultimately those that are intoxicated with war must always swallow, for us to wake up again.

TP.c: When you say the rush to war is like a drug, how is it addictive? What void does it fill? What needs are fulfilled by this kind of rhetoric and this kind of myth-making, and this kind of political discourse, that are not otherwise accomplished in a peacetime political environment?

Hedges: Well, I think war is probably the supreme drug. War -- first of all, it is a narcotic. You can easily become addicted to it. And that’s why it’s often so hard for people who spend prolonged times in combat to return to peacetime society. There’s a huge alienation, a huge disconnection, often a longing to go back to the subculture of war. War has a very dark beauty, a kind of fascination with the grotesque. The Bible called it "the lust of the eye" and warned believers against it. War has a rush. It has a hallucinogenic quality. It has that sort of stoned-out sense of -- that zombie-like quality that comes with not enough sleep, sort of being shelled too long. I think, in many ways, there is no drug, or there are no combination of drugs that are as potent as war, and one could argue as addictive. It certainly is as addictive as any narcotic.

TomPaine.com: For people who haven’t read your reports in The New York Times, or don’t know what actually goes behind the reporting that’s gone into them, where have you been that has brought you on this course to write about this topic?

Chris Hedges: Well, I went to Seminary -- I didn’t go to journalism school. So this stretches way back to my own education, my own theological education, my study of ethics. I went to war, not because I was a gun nut, or wanted adventure, although to be honest, that was part of it. I did have a longing for that kind of epic battle that could define my life. I grew up reading everything on the Holocaust and on the Spanish Civil War, but I went as an idealist. I went to Latin America in the early ‘80s when most of these countries were ruled by pretty heinous military dictatorships. And I thought this was as close as I was going to come in my lifetime to fighting fascism. I wanted that. Unfortunately, I didn’t understand what war was. And I got caught up in the subculture, and to be honest, the addiction that war was. And I ended up over the next 15 years traveling from war zone to war zone to war zone with that fraternity of dysfunctional war correspondents who became my friends -- some of whom were killed, including my closest friend who was killed in Sierra Leone in May of 2000. So I got sucked into the kind of whirlpool that war is -- into the death instinct.

TP.c: For people here, in the states, who have never been in a war zone, can you just talk about some of the situations you put yourself into and what you saw about war that is completely counterpoint to the rhetoric about the cause.

Hedges: Well, the cause is... is always a lie. If people understood, or individuals or societies understood in sensory way what war was, they’d never do it. War is organized industrial slaughter. The good example is the Vietnam War. It began as a mythic war against communism and this kind of stuff, and -- especially when the middle class began finding their sons coming home in body bags -- people began to look at war in a very different light. It no longer was mythic. It became sensory war, i.e. we began to see war without that film, that mythic film that I think colors our vision of all violent conflicts. And then the war became impossible to prosecute. So the cause, the myth, the notion of glory -- those are lies. They’re always lies. And nations need them. Emperiums need them especially in order to get a populace to support a war. But they’re untrue.

TP.c: So, you’d be sent into the field to cover different conflicts, what would you see that would be fundamentally at odds with this -- what you’re describing as the lie?

Hedges: Well, it takes anyone in combat about 30 seconds to realize that they’ve been lied to. War, combat is nothing like it’s presented -- not only by the entertainment industry, by Hollywood, but by the press, by writers such as Cornelius Ryan or Stephen Ambrose, who just died. These are myth-makers.The press is guilty of this. The press in wartime is always part of the problem. But when you get into combat, it’s venal. It’s dirty. It’s confusing. It’s humiliating, because you feel powerless. The noise is deafening. But, most importantly, you feel fear in a way that you’ve probably never felt fear before. And anyone who spends a lot of time in combat struggles always with this terrible, terrible fear -- this deep, instinctual desire for self-preservation. And there are always times when fear rules you. In wartime, you learn you’re not the person you want to be -- or think you were. You don’t dash out under fire to save your wounded comrade. Occasionally, this happens, but most of the time you’re terrified. And that’s very, very sobering. And it’s a huge wake-up call. It shows you that the images that you’ve been fed, both about war, and that you have created for yourself, are wrong.

TP.c: Well, what do you think reporters can or should be doing that’s different?

Hedges: Well, I think the big thing is you can’t accept the language the state gives you. I mean, this is not a war in any conventional sense -- I’m talking about the "War on Terror" -- nor is it a war on terror. I think we have to dissect the clichés. Clichés are the enemy of bad writing, but also the enemy of clear thought, as George Orwell wrote. I think that’s the first thing, we have to not speak in the language in which the state gives us. Secondly, I think we have to ask the hard questions. And I think The New York Times hasn’t been bad on this. I think the Times has been pretty good, by looking at "what is it?" There was an editorial, I think in yesterday’s Times, that said, "You know, there is no hard intelligence that he has anything that he’s going to use against us, and before we go to war you have to show us." That is the proper response, and I laud the paper for printing that editorial.

TP.c: What’s so interesting is, it doesn’t get much stronger than that. Yet, on the other hand, what you write about in the book, is that a lot of people in the country who aren’t privy to details at that level, or aren’t as politically tuned in -- they want to believe that this cause is good. They trust what the president says. And there’s an appeal, as you say, in society’s march toward war that fills certain needs.

Hedges: Well, I think that’s the problem. There’s a lot that we just don’t really feel like seeing because we’re having too much fun exulting in our own military prowess and our ability to mold and shape the world in ways that we want. There is a kind of suspension of self-criticism, both as a nation and as a person that takes place in wartime. And that’s part of what removes the anxiety of normal daily living. We’re no longer required to make moral choice. Moral choice has been made for us by the state. And to question the decisions of the state is to be branded, not only a traitor, but to be pushed outside that kind of communal entity within a society that war always creates. And that’s a very difficult, lonely and painful experience. So most people, not necessarily because they’re bad people in any way, but most people find it emotionally far more convenient, but also far more pleasurable just to go along. The problem is, under poor leadership, or wandering into a war where we shouldn’t be, we can find ourselves in heaps of trouble.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6657

"The myth, which is a lie, of course, built around glory, heroism, heroic self-sacrifice, the nobility of the nation. And it is a kind of intoxication." Chris Hedges

[G_j]

40. Chris Hedges

is a very important voice. He knows what he is talking about. He understands what war is about. I heard a tape of him speaking before the invasion, he brought tears to my eyes.

[bahrbearian]

30. I love the smell of Napalm in the Morning said...

Captain Gregory Wingard, 39, at the 1st Infantry Division's Camp Warhorse near Baquba, north of Baghdad.

[lovuian]

33. Its gotta hurt to see this!!!

I feel so sorry for the Military Men and Women ....We love you guys and gals

[Crunchy Frog]

35. Wow! 63,000 dead in a single day.

That pretty much renders the 58,000 deaths in Vietnam meaningless. I can't believe people even made such a fuss as to bother with putting up a memorial, the number of deaths was so insignificant.

Now we know that we could lose thousands and thousands and it still won't matter because we lost more in Gettysburg.

What a relief to know that I no longer need to worry about such a minor death toll.

[Merlin]

39. It's a Ring Knockers' Rank Maker

Here we have a typical piece of propaganda sponsored by the lifer officers who need a war to make rank.

I knew a bunch of 'em in Nam. But they sure as hell don't reflect the opinion of the average GI.

[Zerex71]

41. Well, I wonder if those soldiers will feel the same way...

...when their number comes up. Then let's hear them scoff at what's "meaningless".

Mike

[Zynx]

42. Stupid soldier.

>>"There's one word you have to push back at them. Gettsburg: 63,000 killed in a single day," said Sergeant Kimberly Snow, 35, from Ohio, refering to the US civil war battle. <<

Obviously, she flunked history.

[olddad56]

45. meaningless death toll?

I'm wondering if the families of the 1000 soldiers think the toll is meaningless.

[LynnTheDem]

73. Yes.

MANY of the families of the dead soldiers think and speak EXACTLY that.

As do many of the soldiers.

As did and do many of the top military brass.

[G_j]

46. 1000

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multiply this by 20? for Iraqi dead

[leftchick]

50. mutiply by 37.....

last I read.... :(

[ixion]

48. so, don't compare Iraq to Vietnam, compare it to Gettysburg?

These people are really not in touch with reality. :crazy:

[TX-RAT]

94. Then lets compare to Vietnam. 6000 KIAs a month.

US ARMY 69-72

[alcuno]

49. Those officers are in the right place at the right time.

Enjoy your stay in Iraq; perhaps we'll see you in a couple of years.

[MGKrebs]

51. I am reminded that G.W. Bush spent the whole month

of August 2001 at his vacation property (just 6 months after taking office), during which time, mutiple and credible threats were coming in about potential massive terrorist attacks, and then, after the attack did occur within days of his return, GWB arranged a half-hearted and largely unsuccessful counter -attack against the perpatrators, then quickly abandoned that battle to attack another country that had absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing terror threat. THIS is the battle our children are dying in.

[Malva Zebrina]

76. Then made an incredible joke about it, bragging he won the trifecta

Never ever have we had to endure such ignorance and arrogance from a stupid man such as Bush, who did not win an election to begin with. NO one seems to be mentioning that fact, but for certain it will always be included in anyone writing about Georg the stupid after he leaves the WH. He will suffer that little asterisk for the rest of his life in all history books and there is no way that Poppy Bush can stop it.

[hurley]

53. *sigh*

were the deaths that happened on D-day too much? Was that sacrifice useless as well?

Approximate Casualties of the Allied Armies by Sectors, Normandy, 6 June 1944

NATION /
SECTOR
ESTIMATED CASUALTIES

U.S. AIRBORNE 2,499
U.S. / UTAH 197
U.S. / OMAHA 2,000
U.K. / GOLD 413
CAN. / JUNO 1,204
U.K. / SWORD 630
U.K. AIRBORNE 1,500
CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE
8,443

That was one day.

[Downtown Hound]

59. This isn't D-Day

This isn't "Gettsburg," it's not Vietnam and it isn't even Korea. This was a poor, third-world nation that never attacked us and presented no real threat to the region. Those men who died on Normandy died to defeat an army that, along with Japan, had overrun half of the known world and killed millions of innocent people. No matter how hard the right likes to make the comparison, Saddam is not, was not, nor ever would have been anywhere even close to Adolf Hitler.

I'd like to believe that some good will come out of this for the Iraqi people in the long run, but I don't see it happening. We have pushed that country to the edge of an abyss, and as soon as we leave, they're going to fall into civil war. That's what these 1,000 troops died for. They brought misery and death to Iraq when they invaded, and they will bring more misery and death when they leave. It is an insult to their memory that they were used by Bush to create such havoc and destruction. May Bush be damned to hell.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hurley]

100. Why do you make the assumption that I am a rightwing nut?

Are you always in the habit of making blanket statements? What about equality in opinions and beliefs? I don't feel that you have the right nor the necessary information to make this assumption and I find it ridiculous that you would act this way. I have buried friends and comrades. I have seen men die. I have a different opinion than you and I am entitled to that right.

I think that response was a poor choice on your part. I don’t demand an apology by the simple fact that I don’t know you. I wonder if you treat everyone that differs in opinion with the same dignity and courtesy as you have so graciously shown me.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

113. Coming from a guy who insulted a DUer

with "your stupidity has broken the internet". Quite a rant there.

Nice try. :eyes:

[Gyre]

54. Well, they're free to stay there after the rest of the

troops with a life come home.:)

Gyre

[DrWeird]

55. Yes. The death of 1,000 troops was meaningless.

Good to see the soldiers realize that they're dying for no good reason.

[Fovea]

58. Gettysburg?

Why not another stupid pointless war, why not the Battle of the Marne or Gallipoli?

How about another mad fascist war... how about Stalingrad, where civilians had to resort to cannibalism?

If it were up to KBR, so would this Sargeant Snow.

[teryang]

61. Rumsfeld: Americans "willing to suffer casualties..."

...Bizarre statement foreshadowing military and political defeat:

<Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld cited progress on multiple fronts in the Bush administration's global war on terrorism and said U.S. enemies should not underestimate the willingness of the American people and its coalition allies to suffer casualties in Iraq and elsewhere.>

When the focus is on willingness to suffer losses, something is critically wrong.


<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040908/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_040908000729>

[shadu]

62. you are 100 percent correct

this is insane

[agincourt]

64. Well dudes,

Have fun, because if gwbushytail gets another term, there will be plenty of fun to go around.

[flaminbats]

65. how unpatriotic of them..

Are we for the government or against it? Does the media support our troops or not? Will liberals stand up for the homeland or question it?

But in the case of Vietnam, I thought that was just another Democrat war! Does this make the deaths of brave men at Gettysburg Republican or Confederate acts of murder?

Does that make Bush's convention speech today's Gettysburg address? Freedom is wonderful, so long as we don't really have it.

[llmart]

70. Well, Ms. Kimberly Snow.......

using that logic, than what was all the hoopla about over the less than 3,000 deaths in the World Trade Center? Just a blip compared to "Gettsburg." No big deal. They were meaningless.

[LynnTheDem]

74. Exactly

Almost half the number of Americans killed in 911 have now been killed in Iraq.

But rightwingnuts can't don't won't do LOGICAL or RATIONAL thinking. Hell, they can't don't won't do thinking. Period.

[Charlie Brown]

75. This guy has his facts wrong

There were only 53,000 dead at Gettysburg, and only 23,000 of those were Union casualties (I will not count the Army of Northern Virginia as "Americans"). Unless this guy thinks the Confederates were justified in launching an Insurgency against the US government, he's full of it.

[Nordic]

77. I wonder what the dead ones would say??

Too bad they can't interview them, no?

[Thor_MN]

78. 1000 deaths, countless wounded as opposed to NOT INVADING, maybe?

Why do people keep glossing over the fact that Iraq is *'s OPTIONAL war? It belongs to him, he started it, and nothing can change that. There was no good reason to go there. 1000 Americans (not to mention how many Iraqis) are dead because george had a bug up his ass about being better than daddy. Well, that and the Dick is making a ton of money off it.

[WEagle]

79. just think how many lives

would have been saved if they hadn't ridiculed and ignored us.

[The_Casual_Observer]

80. "Camp Warhorse near Baquba"

They stay in that camp all the time, if they leave it they get shot at.

Funny how they psyops this article today. We just don't get enough cheerleading of the war from those guys these days.

[Christof]

83. Who are these idiots????

63,000 people didn't die at Gettysburg! According to www.civilwarhome.com, about the battle of Gettysburg: "Federal losses numbered slightly over 9,000, including some 3,000 captured, compared with Confederate losses of about 6,500." The bloodiest day in war history was during the battle of Antietam, with 26,134 deaths (12,410 Union and 13,724 Confederate).

People need to go back and re-read history. :eyes:

One death was too much in this mess. We didn't even need to go to Iraq in the first place. I'm suprised soldiers like them are saying they support this war.

[JSJ]

87. post-modern troops are so perverted, they love...

..., in equal measure, Bush (and the fascism he represents) and war (for all the easy kills)- the dumbfucking opportunistic volunteers that they are. Don't tell me they're over there just for money for an education- only about 21% of vets ever take advantage of GI education benefits, anyway.

[saigon68]

89. There are a few bums, bullies and psycho killers in the military

In the old days they used to be weeded out. Then apparently the system changed.

[hurley]

111. *ahem*!

I dont think you really meant what you said here.
I am not part of youre grouping thank you very much!

[yellowcanine]

93. Sergeant, take that messenger out and execute him! Until we reach

the bar set at Gettysburg there will be no more reporting of combat deaths! If the press whines about it, tell them to blame General Pickett!"

[74dodgedart]

101. Gee, only 3000 died on 9/11, what are we getting so worked up about ??

It's not the number, its who did the killing and why..

[SoCalDem]

102. "...restore security..."......very odd phrase

We NEVER HAD any security to restore.. The only relative "security" that Iraq has known was under "the other guy"...the one everyone hated..

Right now WE are the "skunk at the picnic"....spraying everything in sight, and pleading for calm...

Ig * had not screwed it all up at the beginning, things woould be very different now..

All those young men who are lobbing grenades and building IEDs would be busily WORKING and getting a paycheck.. Halliburtoin & KBR took the rebuilding money, instead of us giving it to the ones who would have thanked us for it..and would have happily rebuilt their OWN country in the process..

[otohara]

105. Brainwashed & Foolish

to think that order will ever be restored in a country where they will forever fight to get the good ole U.S.A. off Iraqi land.

[saigon68]

114. Its IRAQ-NAM

Its a NO WIN