Prosecutor to drop Kobe Bryant charges

[roguevalley]

DENVER (Reuters) - Prosecutors in the Kobe Bryant (news) rape case will ask a judge on Wednesday to drop the charges against the basketball player, a source close to the case said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=716&e=11&u=/nm/20040901/ts_nm/nba_crime_bryant_dc

[Trajan]

1. Wow ...

Now THAT is a bomb shell ...

[roguevalley]

I don't know if they will, but it sounds interesting. I wonder what MSNBC-

ET AL are going to do with the other 22 hours of their day that they aren't holding the Repug's purses.

[johnfunk]

13. That's a no-brainer: Scott Peterson!

Lord knows, the murder of his wife Laci has so profoundly impacted our national security, economic outlook, professional and personal lives, and hope for a better tomorrow...

[Rhiannon12866]

97. I was just discussing this with a friend of mine

And if we aren't hearing about Scott Peterson, it'll be Michael Jackson. I am just profoundly sick of hearing about all three of them.:puke:

[Catch22Dem]

2. Interesting

Whaddya think that's all about?

[0007]

6. Money, what else?

[eleanor]

14. Still unraveling

Experts and analysts are still trying to find out if it is being dismissed with or without prejudice ("with" means they can never bring charges again). There are also rumors that the alleged victim was unwilling to testify. However, the defense filed a motion yesterday that the prosecution had failed to turn over exculpatory evidence ("exculpatory" means leaning toward Kobe's innocence).

[Kadie]

3. I'm glad so much time and effort was put in by the media to cover

this story.

[wryter2000]

4. Good

Maybe the distraction will go away. Now, if we could get Scott to admit to killing Laci...

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Hmmm our polling reveals he is not good for smokescreen duty

any more

[Mojambo]

7. Money, money, money, money....

MONEY!

I LOVE our judicial system! Yay!

[StandUpGuy]

31. Money ?

What do you mean?

Is Kobe getting off because he has too much money to convict him?

or

Is the prosecution dropping the charges because they don't have enough money to convict him?

or

Are you suggesting that the only thing this girl wants is money and now that the civil suit is under way there is no need to convict him?

[1monster]

64. According to the radio news I heard today, the prosecution is dropping

the charges because Kobe has reached a financial settlement with the woman. If that is the case, the whole thing sounds a lot like extortion.

I don't think I've ever heard of a criminal rape case being dropped by the criminal prosecutor because a finacial settlement had been reached in a civil action...

[lazarus]

84. That's very unusual

And very questionable on everybody's part.

Kobe's liable for charges of witness-tampering if this can be proven.

[Djinn]

92. or maybe it sounds like

the girl is sick of being called a slut in the media and just wants to get on with her life

[sampsonblk]

89. You're right!

This had nothing to do with her being a known lying slut, or bragging to her friends about how big Kobe's tool was. You're right. Yep.

[NicoleM]

8. How many more

posts until the flame war?

[The Sushi Bandit]

9. This will take reporters away from the convention!

Fine with me!

[BayouBengal07]

10. Good.

Maybe then we can stop having to hear about it in the news 24/7.

[DrWeird]

11. OMG. A white woman falsely accusing a black man of rape.

Has anybody ever heard of such a thing?

:shrug:

[AnnInLa]

16. And if a white woman accuses a black man of rape

when he actually raped her, what then? He gets a pass because he is black, and women continue to be victimized. Lesson learned: don't dare accuse the man that rapes you, especially if you have ever had sex before or if he is a sports star.

[DrWeird]

17. But Bryant's innocent.

Presumption of innocence, and all that. Hell, even the prosecutors don't want a trial.

So what makes you think he's guilty? The color of his skin?

[Mojambo]

19. Destroy the victim

Bryant "won" this case with the same tactics the swift boat crew used.

Smear and attack the victim. You have to admit it's a pretty distasteful way to defend yourself.

[radwriter0555]

21. the so-called victim lost her case because she's a nutcase and had

sex with other partners while her poor besmirched psyche was being bruised.

[Mojambo]

23. So it's not possible to rape

someone who might be mentally unstable and has had sex?
Ok.

[Heddi]

28. of course not.

Just like it's impossible for anyone who is rich, powerful, or connected to ever rape someone. Because OBVIOUSLY if anyone ever accuses someone who is rich, powerful, or connected of rape, it's only because they want the MONEY!!!

I mean, it's SO simple and untraumatic to suffer through a rape trial. Especially--ESPECIALLY if you are the one who was raped. Every girl I've known has done it...usually right after they've had their spur-of-the-moment late-term-abortion that was used as birth control because they're too lazy to take the pill.

Us Krazy Wimmen! When will us ever learn??

[sofa king]

55. It's damned difficult to prove rape in the middle of consensual sex.

That was the issue that this entire case turned on. There was no argument that Kobe and the woman were having consensual intercourse.

But in the midst of consensual sex, Kobe went for the brown eye--the big no-no, where the sun don't shine.

Forgive me, but the prosecutor must have been viewing this case as a genuine pain in the ass. Unlike most rape cases, here we have a claimant who quite intentionally and voluntarily bedded her assailant, and she was assailed after they started having sex. Drawing the line between consensual sex and rape in this case is like trying to draw a straight line in beach sand while the tide rolls in.

And that of course is above and beyond questions raised about the plaintiff's ongoing sexual habits and the necessity of explaining the finer points of anal sex to the court, the jury, and the press. It's also given lawyers and paralegals the opportunity to engage in some of the most prurient shop-talk since Monica Lewinsky.

I'm not saying that Kobe didn't do what they say he did, but proving it is damned near impossible.

[Djinn]

95. nice attitude

a woman (or man) who is raped can never have sex again - if she/he does then obviously they weren't raped in the first place. Any chance of you joining us in the 21st century?

[DrWeird]

22. Not at all.

The accuser had injuries on her body that the medical examiner said could have been cause either by rape, or by a large amount of repeated sexual activity. Prosecutors wanted these injuries to be used as evidence of rape. Defense attournies argued that if the prosecution were going to present evidence that these injuries were caused by their client, they had every right to argue that the evidence could have come from another source. And the judge agreed.

You have to admit it's pretty distasteful to want to withhold evidence from the defense.

[Hepburn]

37. The evidence that was uncovered...

...pretty much did the case in for the DA. Apparently the alleged victim after having been raped had consensual sexual intercourse with at least two other guys and when she went for her rape examime, there was the DNA from another man found on her panties.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had been sitting on that jury and I had heard this....that would have been all I needed to say a very loud, "NOT GUILTY!!!"

[Jade Fox]

90. "a distasteful way to defend yourself"--excellent point n/t

[StandUpGuy]

34. Sex after the alleged rape....

Hours after. Not days, weeks, or months.

[liberalcanuck]

65. Thank you -- a voice of reason. n/t

[frylock]

63. and especially if you have another dude's dna sample..

in your panties.

[Kahuna]

25. Actually, yes. If anyone remembers the "College Rape Trial" in MA

a few years back. A white coed accused a black athlete of raping her. Apparently, he forced her to perform oral sex on him frequently by the subliminal power of his outstanding cock. What was shocking to the entire community was that the prosecution brought the charges at all. The girl never detailed any violent acts upon her of any kind. She acknowledged that the followed him around offering her services. Yet she convinced a prosecutor, but luckily for the fellow not the jury, that she was raped. :eyes:

[leftofthedial]

12. get ready for lots of shark attacks this fall

all the overhyped murders and criminal cases are fizzling too early for the Rovian distraction machine.

[hlthe2b]

15. Will he please go far, far away

I don't know if justice is being done or they have simply capitalized on a very inept and inexperienced prosecutor and accusor with some exploitable skeletons in her own closet, but at this point I just want NOT to hear Kobe Bryant's name for at least six months. Just go away-- far, far away.

[takumi]

18. Dropped Kobe Charges

Note: He may still have to face a civil trial!

[Mojambo]

20. Lucky him

He can afford a civil trial.
Unlike most of us.

He couldn't afford playing Basketball in the prison yard and not the Staples center.

[DrWeird]

24. Decidedly unlucky for him.

He didn't do it but now every racist nutjob is going to assume that he did because some white woman said so and he's going to suffer for it.

[Heddi]

27. Yep. And every mysogonisitc nutjob

is going to continue to claim that any woman who claims rape is just a lying crackpot looking to get rich and all women will suffer for that. Just like we've been suffering for it since the begining of time.

[DrWeird]

29. chaps your hide, doesn't it?

Looking for large, adequate trees, perhaps?

[Heddi]

33. huh? Could you explain more?

Are you implying something to do with lynching?

Look--I'm a rape victim. A victim of a repeated child molestor. Things that would make your hair stand on end were done to me and dozens of other children.

As I posted below---rape is the most under reported crime not just in the country, but in the WORLD.

Yes, it is just as injust that every man who is accused of rape is automatically considered guilty by some, but it's just as injust that any woman who claims she is raped is called a whore, a harlot, a kook by some. Usually, though, it's the same people doing the mudslinging for both the victim and the accused.

You know, when I had my first (of many) rape kits done on me in the hospital, a police officer was in the room as a not very sympathetic doctor perfomed the pelvic exam on me. THe police officer actually asked the doctor if I seemed "Loose". Yah, that's an appropriate question to ask while a 12 year old who was just sodomized is sitting in the room. No bias there. No presumption of lies on my part, eh?

The injustice goes BOTH ways. one can have sympathy for the victim and not consider the accused to be guilty.

[DrWeird]

35. Hang on there a minute...

A white woman falsely accusing a black man of rape is no worse than calling that woman a kook?

[Heddi]

61. How do we know she's telling the truth OR lying?

Just like we don't know if Kobe is innocent or guilty, we don't know if she's lying or being truthful.

No where in any thread have I ever, EVER suggested, mentioned, or hinted that Kobe Bryant is guilty or could be guilty of rape. I leave that up to the jury.

And I have never suggested, mentioned or hinted that the woman is telling the truth. That as well is left up to the jury.

What I am addressing is the blanket condemnation by many people, not just on this thread but on EVERY THREAD ABOUT RAPE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, SEXUAL HARASSMENT< ETC that shows up on DU that women are just liars, out to take men's wallets by calling rape when it never happened.

Are there false reports of rape? Of course. Just as there are false reports of arson, kidnapping, murder, robbery, assault. In fact, the percentage of false rape allegations are the same as any other crime--I believe around 2%.

There has been no trial, and the only evidence we, the public, have been privy to is the evidence that was leaked to the press, either to impress one side or the other.

Of course filing a false rape claim is unexcusable. In fact, it totally diminishes the actual pain and trauma that REAL victims suffer. Because of false claims, EVERYONE's claim is suspect.

But because there is no trial, we'll never know if she was lying. or telling the truth. Or something in between.

When I went to court for my rape, the case was thrown out. I was raped alright, but because my perp had used a condom, there was no physical evidence that couldn't be explained away. Sure I had tears on my vagina, but that COULD have been from forceful masturbation, or sex with another person, or a reaction to bubblebath.

Lack of evidence caused the case not to go to trail. Lack of PHYSICAL evidence. So I didn't get to testify. The case was thrown out. In fact, the prosecution, much like in this instance, dropped the case because they knew it would be a hard sell.

Lack of Semen is what let my perp off, only to continue to rape me as well as several other children in the neighborhood. He was finally convicted a few years later when he made the mistake of leaving semen inside one of his victims.

So just because a case was dropped doesn't mean that nothing happened. Equaly, just because a case goes forward doesn't mean that anything happened as well.

I withhold all judgement on all parties in this case because we know NOTHING about what happened. We have bits here and there.

However, as a victim, I am particularly tired of *MY* experience being doubted because some men don't like the idea that yes, virginia, some women are really raped, and no, they really didn't deserve it.

As I said earlier---it's just as much an injustice that some men will be forever judged by the court of public opinion for rapes that they never committed as it is that women will ALWAYS be judged by the court of public opinion as being whores and harlots for rapes that they dared report.

What I don't understand is that if someone even hints that Kobe may be guilty of something, that poster is jumped on, called a racist, man hater, etc etc.

But it's perfectly fine to insinuate that a woman who is mentally ill can't be raped. Or at least can't be BELIEVED that she is raped. It's acceptable to claim that women are money grabbers and love making the false rape charge for no reason. That's just fine and acceptable. But don't dare suggest that Kobe may be guilty or off with your head!

[Djinn]

100. I don't think anyone said that DrWeird

No-one but Bryant and the alleged victim know what happened - and actually it's not impossible for a rape to occur and the rapist not to even "know" or more accurately acknowledge that was what is was, "it was just a bit of persuasion, everyone knows when a woman says no she means yes" - what people object to here is the ridiculous myths propagated: that a woman "cries" rape, that when accusing someone with money it must be about extortion, that if you have sex with anyone else you weren't sufficiently traumatized - NB to those that think that how the FUCK would you know and what the hell gives you the right to judge other people's actions.

I don't normally agree that DU is hotbed of misogyny but in the few "Kobe" threads I've read and a few others concerning rape I get really fucking depressed at some of the posts.

[liberalcanuck]

71. You said, "No bias there. No presumption of lies on my part, eh?"

This case touches on a lot of personal nerves for a lot of people. You obviously have a perspective that I am very sensitive to and I can see why you're angry and frustrated. The sick, depraved criminal behavior you experienced from that molester obviously causes you to have a knee-jerk reaction to probably any rape case. Therefore, you also are biased.

As a black male (currently dating and in love with a white woman) I also bring my own preconceptions and biases. In your post you repeatedly refer to not only yourself as a victim, but you imply Kobe's accuser is a victim also. You obviously are a victim, you are speaking for yourself about a harrowing, personal experience. I had a real personal problem with the media calling this young lady repeatedly a victim before the trial and before all the facts are known.

Thank God Kobe had the means for a great attorney unlike so many African Americans that you've heard being released from prison after sometimes decades of wrongful imprisonment.

[Heddi]

75. I have not called this woman specifically "the victim"

I have spoken of Victims (broad term for all people who have been raped). Any mention of her I have used either "woman" or "alleged victim". If I used the term "Victim" with regards to the woman in this case, that was an error on my part because she is an "alleged victim". To say otherwise would be to imply guilt on the part of Kobe Bryant, which I am not about to do.

I am very outraged at the idea of ANYONE being wrongly accused and imprisoned for a crime they did not commit. I think it's terribly sad that recently over 100 inmates (mostly, if not all, black) were released from Illinois Death Row because of exonneration based on DNA evidence---I don't find their release sad, I find the fact that they were convicted of a capital crime to be inexcusable, and I'm thankful that they were allowed to attempt to resume whatever normal life can be had at this point in time.

I don't think my reaction to rape cases are "knee jerk". I do not assume truth on the part of the accuser, and I do not assume guilt on the part of the accused. That was done to me, but in the opposite way.

I think what many people are getting confused about is my insistence that while we shouldn't automatically think that an accuser is telling the truth, we ALSO shouldn't automatically assume that she's lying either.

That is what I'm seeing in this thread---the assumption of lying on her part. I'd rather people be as neutral about her as they are about Kobe---innocent until proven guilty, but in her case, neutral until proven truthful/lying.

I don't know how long you've been on DU---I've been here close to 3 years, and I have seen in Every single rape thread that is posted, posters who make the following comments about rape victims:

we're lying
exaggerating
misunderstanding the situation
he said/she said
wearing our emotions on our sleeve
mentally unbalanced
"typical hysterical rape victim" (that was directed towards me)
money-grabbing lying bitches

etc.

And it's not that all the rape threads on DU have to do with Kobe Bryant's case. No, not at all. Any germaine, innocent topic regarding rape always turns into the men against the women. We're the liars and they're the persecuted.

That's not having a knee-jerk reaction. That's having a documented history of this kind of conversation on DU and reacting to it.

[shanti]

59. yeah lucky for kobe

he just signed a $126 mil contract! no problem, man. :eyes: but the story states that prosecution plans to drop the civil case as well.

[radwriter0555]

26. Interestingly the 'victim' is only asking for $70,000 which isn't much at

all.

A strange number, a low number, for a supposedly shocking crime, or one could consider it a high fee for a whore. Not including of course his millions spent on lawyers, and then his pending divorce which will cost him... what? 30 million?

Hell of a price to pay for 10 minutes of sex.

[DrWeird]

30. Wait for the book deal.

And the movie on Fox.

[Heddi]

32. what an absolutely sickening post

First you call her a 'nutjob' because she has mental health issues. Now you call her a whore?

Boy oh boy......


BTW---I was raped as a child by my mother's boyfriend. I wasn't the only one he sexually abused, and was in prison for a long time because of it (not my assualt---another assault on another child in another state at another time). I wasn't the first. I wasn't the last.

His family knew about his problems and continuously harassed his victims calling them (and me) dirty whores. A twelve year old who was raped is a dirty whore. We were asking for it. OF course, according to many DU'ers, simply having a vagina implies 'asking for it'.

I hope that you or anyone you love is ever put through the humiliating experience of having a sexual assault happen to them. It's not just insulting to have doctors doing vaginal and rectal exams on you while the police watch. It's not just insulting to be asked how many times you've masturbated, how many times you've done this or that (remember, i was TWELVE). But then to be considered a whore---not just by the family of a pedophile, but by the police, members of your own family, and the community at large.

And people wonder why rape is the most underreported crime in the WORLD? Maybe because we get really tired of hearing the "Mentally Ill Whore" tag thrown at us every time someone accuses another of rape.

[Ripley]

38. This thread is incredibly offensive.

I swear there must be some rapists posting here. Because they sure sound like they have an axe to grind.

And the fact that they defend this scummy rich ass Bryant who admits he had sex with a maid in a hotel he just met, while his beautiful wife sits at home with their months old baby.

Nice guy. Of course he'd never force himself on anyone! And of course if she had sex with other guys she's a whore!

I wonder why this board doesn't delete such vile posts?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tomee450]

43. I think you

are being unfair. Why mention Bryant's wealth? Wealthy people can be falsely accused. In fact it is because of their wealth that they are sometimes accused. This is a he said she said case since there were no other people in that room. Yes, he was a married man who had sex with a hotel worker but she was a young woman who voluntarily went to a room with a man she had just met and by her own admission began to flirt with him. She knew he was married, but did not care. Yet despite this, you call only Bryant scummy. And yes, there are plenty of athletes who do not force themselves on women and for all we know Bryant could be one of them. I know this, many women would not dare go into a strange man's hotel room.

I've just read that the prosecution withheld evidence. Forensic expert Michael Baden told them that the injuries may have been caused by consensual sex. This information was not given to the defense team.

It's a pity that people continue to believe that black men are just waiting to rape a white woman. This attitude in the past has lead to the lynching of many black men.

[Ripley]

44. Yeah, nice turn around.

Call me a racist when I never mentioned his skin color. And as I recall the Defense first leaked all kinds of personal information about her to the media, including her name and address.

So cry me a river for the poor Kobe.

Every time a "rape" thread comes up on DU this happens. Men automatically attack the accuser and defend the guy. Why is that? Do you think rape is fiction and women just make it up, because they're all gold diggers?

[Tomee450]

53. You don't have to mention

skin color,sometimes the tone says it all. You mention his wealth and call him scummy. Both people in this episode have faults. There are many incidents where black men have been falsely accused of rape and other crimes only later to be found not guilty. One such person was released only a few years ago after being convicted of rape and spending ten years in prison. Eyewitnesses identified him as the culprit. Yet DNA, not available at the time he was being convicted, has proven he was not the rapist and the real rapist who is now in prison has confessed. The boys in the Central Park jogger case also were accused of rape,convicted and spent years in prison only later to be discovered not to be guilty.

Just because a person is wealthy, famous, and an adulterer does not mean he has to be a rapist. There are plenty of men of bad character that don't go about raping women.

No one knows what really happened but the two involved yet some or ready to accept her story and eager to convict Bryant.

[NashVegas]

69. The Wealth Is Significant

Because of what it bought (lawyers).

Whether innocent or guilty, the real crime in this (and all such high-publicity trials) is the purposeful poisoning of the potential jury pool and public intimidation of the accuser.

Bringing television into the courtroom has to be one of the worst "advances" in legal history.

[liberalcanuck]

74. Great post! Some of these posts are deeply offensive and I'll attribute

that to people having their own axe to grind for whatever reason. There are a few puritans on this board who have never known anyone to cheat or can't stand the fact that Kobe has money. They don't realize that their bias is so patently obvious with their every post.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

41. Unbelievable.

Who are you guys? Liberals for Rapists or something? You clearly know nothing about the facts of rape and you mock someone trying to educate you.

[DrWeird]

42. Don't forget "terrorists."

We stick up for muslims too.

[StandUpGuy]

45. Liberals for Justice !! and maybe truth !

BTW what facts has anyone presented to educate me on rape?

You want to convict an innocent man of a crime first you have to prove he is guilty of that crime.

You and others are trying to convict this innocent man of crimes committed against other victims by other criminals.

You are also trying to say that he is guilty of this crime because he is an adulterer. Last time I checked that was legal.

[Ripley]

48. Gee, lie much?

I never said he is guilty of rape because he is an adulterer.

I brought it up because some people defend him like he is an innocent, decent man who would never do that. I was pointing out his character. Of course I don't think that makes him a rapist.

How do you know he is innocent? Are all accused rapists innocent?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

52. Until proven guilty.

And since Bryant's charges will be dropped that presumption shifts to assumption.

And quit beating around the bush. You implied that because he was an adulterer that he was a terrible human being that didn't deserve equal protection under the law.

Furthermore, you implied that innocent black men were rapists, and that liberals who stood up for innocent black men were "liberals for rapists" or just plain "rapists" which is pretty much what freepers say in regards to muslims. Hopefully you didn't really mean it and were just being hysterical.

[StandUpGuy]

57. dear mods

Is it OK to say I was raped so all other rape claims must be true and not get the post removed?

Is it OK to repeat a false statement that rape is the most under reported crime in the world several times in bold letters and not get your post removed.

How about a single link to back up that claim.

If you read my posts closely enough to erase them then I would have hoped that you noticed I was asking her to turn her grief into action by suggesting how us women haters be less insensitive.

Instead you remove my posts.

[Moderator]

62. StandUpGuy

Questions about moderator responsibilities and the administration of DU can be addressed to Ask the Administrators:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=120

Thanks,
DU Mod

[Djinn]

110. I don't know what your deleted posts said

but one that remains has you claiming (or at the very least alluding) that if a woman has sex "hours" after being raped she can not have been raped - can you please let us know the acceptable amount of time a woman should wait?

There is actually no "proof" this even happened it was one of many media leaks in this case which helped turn people against the woman (repeating again that I have no idea who is lying in this instance) by labelling her a slut (and antiquated and totally meaningless epithet) However many women (and men) who are raped will have sex (I don't use the term "consensual" as a prefix because if it's not it's rape not sex) afterwards for several different reasons - none of which are relevant to whetehr or not they were raped in the first place.

Oh and some stats/info for you - just to start you off

http://www.aworc.org/bpfa/pub/sec_d/vaw00001.html
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/301/301lect15.htm
http://legallawhelp.com/safety_and_health/sexual_assaults/

These are US based but it is the same in the rest of teh developed world and if you honestly think that in places such as Saudi were one can be JAILED for adultery if one doesn't have 7 male witnesses of good character to back up your claims that rape isn't underreported you're insane

[Djinn]

106. personally I've stated that I have no idea

who lied in this case - but that doesn't change the fact that people have posted here "proof" that the woman was a liar because she "voluntarilly went into his room" - christ I'm glad my male friends over the years havn't had the same attitude, and that she had sex with other people afterwards. That is utter bullshit not to mention sexist (which ISN'T a word I throw around)

[cally]

46. Amazing....

This woman was violated by the justice system. Her personal info was 'mistakenly' released countless times. All of you claiming to know that she had sex afterwards...prove it. It's based on leaks and nothing in the trial. Should any woman accuse a powerful, rich man of rape when the justice system does not protect them. Remember the proven immoral person is Kobe Bryant who cheated on his wife and had 'rough' sex with a woman he just met. Save your biases and apologies for the rich man.

None of us know what exactly happen because there will be no trial. I would have backed out of this trial also after my identity was released 'mistakenly.'

Heddi, I'm sorry for what you experienced. Not all of us dismiss your pain. :hug:

[StandUpGuy]

49. prove he raped her

Prove that 'rough sex' is immoral

Prove anything.

Prove I or anyone here have dismissed a rape victim's pain.

I for one asked her to not wear it on her sleeve and asked her to suggest ways us "misogynists" could determine the validity of a rape claim without offending the victim or women in general.

[cally]

50. I never claimed any of those things you asked me to prove

I do think you are insensitive to a rape victim's pain. She is not wearing it on her sleeve but asking you to show some sensitivity. You dismiss the claims of rape that are not proven in court. You could instead be open to the claim and realize that all has to be proven. Some rapes can never be proven in court but they did actually happen. Talk to any woman who was date raped or raped by her husband. FWIW...I never was but I know way too many women who were and none were proven in court.

[StandUpGuy]

54. Its sad that it is just assumed that I must not know ....

Anything about rape or anyone that has been.

I have worked in crisis counseling actually.

Anyone that tries to use their own experiences with rape publicly like this to defend someone they know nothing about has to consider they might be personalizing this and perhaps should realize they can not be objective and stop throwing insults around.

[cally]

56. You do realize that you just insulted me

and you also personalized all this. :shrug:

[StandUpGuy]

58. How did I insult you ?

Was it the "wearing it on your sleeve"?

Because thats exactly what she was doing. Anybody that has been in therapy will know that.

I was asking her and others to suggest how men can be more understanding and less offensive when trying to determine the validity of an allegation.

Or is the allegation enough?

[Heddi]

68. wearing it on my sleeve, eh?

So I suppose I should just never talk about it, right? Keep it hidden away and never bring up the nasty "r" word lest anyone get offended, or feel uncomfortable.

Fuck that.

I was silent for too many years. I allowed others to judge me based on something I had no control over for too many years. I will NOT be silent now.

You say I wear my rape on my sleeve. Would you rather I be ashamed of it? Flog myself daily for allowing myself to be raped? For asking for it? For not doing enough?

Here's a suggestion on how men can be more understanding regarding rape victims: Don't assume that every woman OR man who claims rape is lying. Because we're not.

Don't assume that because a trial isn't held, or is dropped, or is settled out of court, then that means that there was no rape. That the only guilty party was the woman (or man) for bringing a false rape claim.

Don't assume because there is no physical evidence that no rape occured.

Don't assume that because a woman has had enough of the world telling her that rape is something that you don't talk about, don't tell anyone about, don't mention in polite company, then she is wearing it on her sleeve.

Rape is as much a part of me as ANYTHING I've gone through in my life. It's made me who I am today and is just as formative in my growth as was school, friendships, scraped knees and elbow-maccaroni art.

I will NOT be ashamed anylonger. I will NOT whisper about what happened, using sensitive words like "assault" or "unwarranted touching". What happened to me was RAPE. A penis was forcefully put, against my will, into my vagina. my mouth. my rectum. Repeatedly.

Not just me, but other children. Other adults. My perp wasn't choosy. Child or adult, boy or girl, man or woman, human or animal. He didn't make distinctions.

I came forward and was dismissed by everyone I told. The police, my family, his family, my friends. Do you even begin to know the pain of having EVERYONE that you love call you a liar to your face? Suggest...no, outright SAY that you're exaggerating things? Misunderstanding the situation?

I went to my mother and told her. Know what she said? "You're lying. He loves me and you're jealous of my love" SHe allowed him to continue living with us, knowing that he had already served 2 jail sentences for sexually assaulting other women.

He continued to molest me. Rape me. And other children in the neighbrhood. Perhaps if someone had BELIEVED ME, those other children won't have to share the collective pain that we all now have thanks to that rapist.

No, she didn't believe me. I was a 12 year old whore. Out to steal the best sex she ever had. Her best lover.

Finally, about 6 years later he was caught raping a mentally handicapped boy I went to school with. He was on probation at the time so was sent back to jail. Of course THAT boy was telling the truth. I still wasn't. I still made it all up. I did something to provoke it. Bring it on. That is, if it ever happened to begin with.

Everyone at school knew the rapist lived at my house. Now, I wasn't just shunned by my family, I became a pariah at school. My house was set on fire. I eventually dropped out (an honours student) and attended night school. I was to blame for that boy's terror. It was my fault. I had a hand in it. That's what they said anyways.

You say you worked in crisis counceling---I wonder what reaction you got by telling any woman (or man) coming to you for rape counseling that they were wearing their rape on their sleeve? Did they punch you? OR did they sit in the chair meekly and agree with you because that's what they'd been told so many times before. Maybe different words, maybe different people. Same message though: Don't talk about it. If you don't talk about it, it didn't happen. It won't hurt. You'll forget about it.

Sorry. Not me. I'm not silent anymore. I am the voice for everyone one that was silenced by people who suggested we just sit down and shut up and get over it.

[cally]

72. I'm so sorry, Heddi

Thanks for writing this and telling all of us what happens. You are 'speaking out' for all the victims who can't just yet. :yourock: and a :hug:

[alarimer]

94. I am sorry this happened to you.

I cannot believe some of the posts on this thread. I am horrified and disgusted by some of these posters. The reason rape is underreported is because people are afraid to come forward because they will be treated like crap. They are called names, they have their reputations dragged through the mud. Their sanity and honesty are questioned. It is the only crime where this is so. Most of the time crime victims are given the benefit of the doubt. But rape victims are "asking for it". A lot of times they will not bring charges because of it. Personally I give the victims the benefit of the doubt in these cases, no matter what. That makes me biased and it means I won't sit on a jury in a case like this. But so fucking what.

[DrWeird]

60. Are you going to sue for punitive damages?

:shrug:

[liberalcanuck]

77. Why do you assume she's a victim btw? What if Kobe is the victim?

What if he thought he was just having a little sex on the side? I'm not condoning adultery but there's nothing illegal about that the last time I checked. Imagine your life is turned upside down and you are accused and labeled a rapist for what you thought was consensual sex. That also could be the case here. You presuppose that the accuser is the victim.

[renotyme]

47. 70,000 plus millions in punitive

you gotta pay to play

[Djinn]

104. if he's innocent

if he's guilty (and I have no idea one way or the other) it's very cheap. BTW I'm not gonna sympathise about how much his divorce will cost - at the very least he cheated on his wife and no woman (or man) should stay with a spouse that shows that much disrespect.

[0007]

112. ......and Hal Haldon isn't cheap, he is the best. He does not lose!

He was also John & Pasty Ramsey's attorney.

[drscm]

36. My God! What is the media going to do? eom

eom

[Supply Side Jesus]

66. don't worry, there's still Jacko!

[progressivebydesign]

67. They dropped it because she was unable to continue.

I'd love for any men on here, who are so quick to blame the alleged victim, if ANY of their female loved ones would be able to suffer through the abuse this woman has suffered during the hearings alone. Her name was outed "by mistake", she has received death threats, her life has been dragged through the media, she's been called a whore, they were trying to paint her as having sex with several other men in the same day. I don't know ANY female, personally, that could stand that type of intense pressure. I KNOW I couldn't.

We'll never know if he's guilty or not, because the alleged victim had to stop the proceedings. She was "unable to continue".

[Heddi]

70. Oh pshaw! Don' tyou know she was lying?

Because she had a history of mental illness. THEREFORE, ERGO, she's a lying twat out to ruin the reputation of a very successful basketball star and get alot of money.

Or was it that she's a racist white woman out to put the blame on a black man simply because he's black?

Sorry---I can't remember. There's been so many reasons why she's OBVIOUSLY lying (but don't dare even suggest that she might be telling the truth or you're a racist republican looking to lynch some black butt)

I don't wish rape upon any person, under any circumstances. However, I wish that for just one second...one second...the men on this thread who are so quick to dismiss the pain associated with rape (not necessarily with regards to this case, but rape in general) could feel just 1/100th of the emotions that a rape victim has. Just one second. One tiny second.

I think that their condemnation of walking vaginas looking for a quick payout would rapidly cease.

[ecstatic]

78. Did you believe Tawana Brawley?

Just curious

[Heddi]

82. I was young when that case happened

and didn't watch news at the time. I didn't know it happened when it happened and only became aware of the case many years later, when I was older and more politically and informationally astute than I was as a teenager.

That question, btw, is just as...valid...as asking me if I've stopped beating my husband. ;)

Because if I say "yes", then I believe lying bitches who are just trying to get money and air-time

If I say "no" then I'm guilty of what I'm angry at others on thsi thread for doing--automatically assuming that someone who claims rape is lying.

So I'm fucked with either answer.

PS. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

[opiate69]

87. Head in the sand much?

" THEREFORE, ERGO, she's a lying twat out to ruin the reputation of a very successful basketball star and get alot of money."

Do you accept the fact that there are, as you so eloquently put it, "lying twats out to... get a lot of money"? It would appear not. You seem to think that "he's a lying, raping son-of-a-bitch" just because a woman accused him of it. The fact of the matter is, there are women, and men for that matter, who would think nothing of resorting to even more heinous claims in order to get a big payday.

[Tomee450]

80. She could have

been unable to continue because she knows that had the trial continued more embarrassing information might come out about her. At trial she and wittinesses would have undergone intense cross examination which might have revealed facts she did not wish known. Yes this woman endured negative publicity but Kobe has also suffered. On this very thread he has been called scummy and an adulterer. His reputation is ruined as some people will continue to believe he is a rapist. Certain people seem to reserve all their sympathy for this accuser as if Kobe has not also suffered. Tonight, a reporter on one of the networks said that one of the reasons the prosecutors did not want to continue with the case was because many of the prospective jurors were inclined not to believe the accuser's story.

[ecstatic]

73. Sort of like Tawana Brawley?

Maybe the DA should be outcasted for life because he believed in someone who's story simply didn't add up... (sort of the way Al Sharpton was)

[Tight_rope]

76. This just pisses me off. 2 years of bullshit news and now this.

[roguevalley]

79. the judge should be horsewhipped for allowing her name to go out there.

shit. I personally think Kobe Bryant is an asshole. He's married. He needs to keep it in his pants. Since he didn't, any offense or pain he may feel is his own fault. Zip up or shut the F up, Bryant and all the rest of the men out there who do this.

[liberalcanuck]

81. Oh, I get it. Since he's a philanderer he deserves to go to prison.

I think we oughtta create a morality police squad tasked with catching all dirty philanderers. Zip up or lock 'em up I say!

[Heddi]

83. Where in that thread did the poster say he should go to prison?

They said that he was cheating on his wife. Which he was.

Had he not cheated on his wife, he would not have been accused of rape, rightly or wrongly.

I don't see anything in that post that would suggest jail, or forming a morality police squad tasked with catching dirty philanderers.

Maybe you can help me out by cutting and pasting the part where the poster said that.

Thanks.

[Tomee450]

86. How utterly ridiculous.

You are concerned about the accuser's pain but Kobe deserves what he gets. So the accuser goes up to a married man's room, something happens but it is all Kobe's fault. In your world, the accuser bears no responsible at all for what has happened to her. It does not occur to you that had she not gone into a strange man's room, she would not be in this situation today. I don't know whether Kobe is innocent or guilty. I just don't believe we convict people on what we read in the media. Only two people know what happened that night. I do feel sorry for this young girl though because it seem she is definitely in need of help.

[cally]

103. You can't be serious, can you

Yes in my world if there is forced sex then it's rape! That's the law. If a woman chooses to be alone with a man then she did not agree to sex. Are you serious???

[osaMABUSh]

85. Best news - knocking Cheney and Bush of the front/home pages

This is keeping the RNC out of the headlines tonight. Was to be DICK Cheney's night.

[LisaL]

88. Feast you eyes on this baby:

Braynt says he is sorry about what had happened to the victim.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/kobe_bryant_dismiss_040901-1.html

[Snellius]

96. Isn't that nice of him? : "I'm sorry you thought I raped you"

That should make everything just fine.

[Tomee450]

101. That is not

what he is saying at all.

[Kimber Scott]

91. Good.

.

[Alenne]

93. and they should throw the civil case out also

If she can't testify in the civil case she certainly shouldn't be able to testify in the case where she could be awarded money. If Kobe had been found not guilty in the criminal case it would have been harder for him to be found liable in a civil case. Seems like someone is more concerned with money than justice.

The excuse that she wouldn't testify because her name was released is bull because her name was released last year and her picture was on the cover of a tabloid last year. All the public talk about her not testifying happened after the evidence about semen that didn't belong to Kobe being found inside her and her underwear was allowed into the trial.

How do you pick which one to believe? She lied about having sex with someone else hours after the rape and he had sex with a woman who was not his wife.

[LisaL]

98. Maybe you should

read his apology to her first.

[Tomee450]

99. Oh please

That statement was just a polite statement to lessen some of her embarrassment. I'll bet his attorney asked him to say that. And you are completely overlooking the fact that he still says he believes it was consensual sex but he is accepting the fact that she is saying it was not.

[LisaL]

102. Please what?

Yea, he is just being nice to her. After that "take no prisoners" campaign he had, he is being nice to her.
You must be joking.
Looks to me that he is prepared to pay her instead of going to a civil trial, since he already is apologizing to her.

[Tomee450]

107. I still say that statement is just

politeness, that's all. He still says it was consensual. And many celebrities will settle out of court just to get the case out of the way and get on with their lives. I have heard many lawyers say this. Settling a civil case does not mean the party is guilty.

[LisaL]

108. politeness?

I don't think so.
His apology is actually longer.
This link only has a part of it.

[Tomee450]

111. I find it amazing

that people feel that an accused person has no right to defend himself. Individuals accused of crimes ususally use every means possible to defend against the charges. Some of the errors in this case were not caused by the defense team but by the court. Other information about the accused was given to the media by people know her. The tabloids were out there, as usual, looking for dirt and people obliged them. Why blame Kobe for the actions of others?

[Alenne]

113. I have

That's probably the deal they reached so they can settle the civil suit and she can get her money faster.

Apology or no apology, she won't cooperate with the criminal case but is going forward with the case that might make her a lot of money. If she had gone forward with the criminal case her rapist could possibly go to jail and she could still sue him in civil court. Seems like she is more concerned with money than she is with justice.

I personally feel she should get some kind of punishment for refusing to testify in a case she was responsible for. Any money she receives from a civil case should go back to the state to pay for this huge waste of time. And if she doesn't get any money she should have to pay out of her own pocket.

[Tomee450]

105. Exactly

People want to overlook the fact that much of the known evidence did not support her claim. According to a reporter on CNN, during the questioning of jurors prosecutors discovered that many did not believe the accuser's story and that is one of the reasons why they were willing to drop the case.

[LisaL]

109. So, they discovered

some jurors did not believe her before they even heard the evidence?
Obviously, those people would never make it on the jury.
I am not surprised, though, with all the dirt that was published about her, that people from her hometown wouldn't believe her.

[Tomee450]

114. That is correct.

Many people from her own home town did not believe her. That is a small town and people know of her. I saw several men being interviewed who were acquainted with her and their comments were not flattering. Also that write up in one of the tabloids where she was seen dancing shortly after the rape certainly did nothing to help her case. I am not saying she lied, I say we don't know what happened. Some people, however, want to believe that Kobe is guilty even though there is evidence out there that leads one to believe that he might not be. The prosecution withheld vital exculpatory evidence from the defense. Their own forensic expert was prepared to say the injuries could have been from consensual sex. After he learned what the forensic expert, Dr. Baden would say, the prosecutor decided he would not use him.

[Moderator]

115. Time to lock this thread

This thread has served it's purpose. Now let't go beat up on some Republicans, not each other.