U.S. Furious at Proposal That Hamm Return His Gold

[Khephra]

ATHENS (Reuters) - U.S. Olympic chiefs reacted furiously Friday to a suggestion gold medallist Paul Hamm should give his medal to a South Korean rival under a plan floated by world gymnastics officials.

In one of the biggest controversies of the Athens Games, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) has said Hamm placed first in the all-round event due to a judging error and bronze medallist Yang Tae-young should have been awarded gold.

The FIG has suspended the three judges involved, saying they incorrectly docked a 10th of a point from Yang's parallel bars routine in the final Wednesday last week. But it has said it has no mechanism to overturn the final standings.

The FIG has now gone a step further and written to Hamm -- one of the highest-profile members of the U.S. Olympic team -- to suggest he could return his medal, according to a letter released by the U.S. Olympic committee Friday.

more................

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-olympics-gymnastics-usa.html

I'm not sure if this should go in BN or the Lounge. I'm sorry if I made the wrong choice.

[MikeG]

1. He should return it when the Russians return the 1972 Gold medals.

[Worst Username Ever]

2. What happened in 72? n/t

[BootinUp]

3. Basketball controversy

The game clock was set back after the US won, The USSR won in OT I guess you could say.

[MikeG]

5. Our basketball team lost the gold to the USSR.

After the last three seconds were replayed three times.

It was a mess. We got robbed.

There's an HBO special on it called :03 from Gold.

[oasis]

19. In protest, every member of that USA team has rejected all attempts

by Olympic officials to give them silver medals.

[FredScuttle]

62. In fact, every member of that team

wrote into their wills that, upon their death, none of their surviving family members may claim the silver medals. Those guys were, and are, PISSED

[LisaL]

67. I don't get it.

The medal isn't even real gold, for crying out loud.
Hamm is refusing to hand his over, but what would happen if he did?
He surely wouldn't loose any of the publicity, and would look gracious.
But no, he just must continue to represent an image of an American as someone who takes something they don't deserve.

[wolfgirl]

95. Please don't

be too hard on the athletes. Paul wasn't/isn't being arrogant. This is something he had dreamed of for 15+ years and it's not the "gold" of the medal, it's the recognition of his hard work. He's still just a kid and is thinking with his heart....

It's not his fault!

[AgadorSparticus]

151. ALL athletes dream of gold and work unbelievably hard--not just

American athletes. Though to listen to NBC's commentators, you'd think it was only American athletes that worked hard and deserved their medals. I get tired of listening to that crap.

But to get a medal out of a technicality is not "earning" it. It is ungracious and unsportsmanlike at its worst. I think Hamm would do more for his image and character if he volunteerily gave up his gold and accepted whatever medal they decide to give him. He would certainly get more respect from athletes and people around the world.

[greenohio]

99. This is about following the rules.

I watched on the tube today someone analyzing South Korea's Yang Tae-young parallel bar routine. Apparently you are limited to 3 holds. You receive a 2/10 points deduction if you have more than 3. Yang had 4, and they showed it. The judges missed it. This 2/10s is greater than the amount they are trying to correct his score by.

There is a time limit to contest a scoring. Without it, someone could come back after finalization and medal award, just to throw doubt on the result. If we did not have a time limit, we would be forever contesting and dissecting, like we are now of Yang's routine. They waited until after scores were reviewed, posted and medals awarded. The rules say that means its final. It is final. Anything after that, is ignoring the rules.

Based on this latest information, Yang didn't even win.

[barb162]

141. yeah, he actually came in fourth

if they would have taken all the proper deductions re the four holds.

[Norquist Nemesis]

121. Oh, puhleeze!

The judges made the mistake. All Hamm did was perform as an athlete. He didn't cheat, fail a drug test, break any rules, etc. It was the judges' fault.

It shouldn't be placed on Hamm's shoulders to make the decision. The officials are wrong to lay it at his feet and try to place blame with him.

[lastliberalintexas]

6. Two wrongs don't make a right

I know that sounds cliched, but I guess I am one of very few Americans who didn't think he deserved the gold the very night that he "won" it. That very night, I told my husband something was wrong, because he certainly didn't outperform the others. But then, I really didn't think he even deserved the silver, which was what he would have received if scored as intended.


But I would rather an Olympic athlete show the world that not all Americans are a--holes, that we don't expect to be handed things on a silver platter, regardless of merit. I would rather an Olympic athlete serve as the ultimate role model for the world's children and give up a medal he never freaking *earned* to begin with. I would rather an Olympic athlete act like a sportsman and champion, instead of just another sports chump.

I am not blaming Hamm for anything other than being a spoiled jerk *post* events. The scoring error was not his fault, and there has been no allegation or evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of the judges. It was all a very unfortunate mistake, apparently.

But that doesn't mean that keeping the medal is right either. Hamm had a "golden" opportunity to show the world a noble gesture in a time when Americans truly need such a thing on the world stage (and this hasn't played well in the rest of the world from what I understand). He would have been world famous as the man who did the right thing and gave up his medal in the name of sportsmanship (hokey, but true). He also wold have made millions in endorsements, might I add, so it certainly woldn't have hurt him personally. But instead, he'll be world famous as the man who holds a gold he didn't earn and that is forever tarnished, and prove to the rest of the world that the Ugly American really does exist. What a missed opportunity, for Hamm AND us.

[BootinUp]

7. good post

I agree he should have returned it once the scoring error was verified. But gestures like that from athletes are rare indeed.

[tabasco]

12. I think they should award two golds, but ...

I agree that the athlete would be doing the right thing by giving up the gold to the real winner. However, a gold medal means big bucks from Wheaties, Nike, etc. There are pecuniary reasons for keeping that gold medal.

[lastliberalintexas]

18. Not really

The goodwill he would have generated from that kind of gesture would have upped his marketing value tremendously. He even had monetary reasons for returning a medal he didn't earn, but was apparently too short-sighted to see that.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

28. maybe he doesn't care about money

maybe he'd rather keep the medal he fairly earned instead of giving in to the whining of South Korea because of a mistake they made themselves. The South Korean gymnast himself said that he had only himself to blame because they did not challenge the start value at the proper time.

[tabasco]

36. Maybe he doesn't care about the dough.

That would be pretty out of character for most Americans though. If he is indeed all about the sport, then he must realize he was beaten in the event. I would hate to be clinging to my medal that I earned through a clerical error.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. "pretty out of character for most Americans"?

Well, at least you're not letting your anti-Americanism influence your opinion.
:eyes:
Incidentally, I'm an American, and I don't consider materialistic. But if you think materialism is a trait limited to Americans, you haven't seen much of the world.

For all the accusations I've seen that any defense of Paul Hamm must be motivated solely by jingoism, it is the Hamm-bashers who seem to be letting own biases influence their opinion on this.

He did not win by a clerical error. I've posted several editorials down below that you might want to consult before making that statement again.

[tabasco]

96. You might want to rethink your claim that I'm anti-America too.

I've spent thirteen years of my life in the infantry, twice in combat, being "anti-American."

If you can't handle adult discussions without hurling insults, you should not participate in a message board.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

128. I don't care if you're Betsy Ross.

I don't need your life story. You should be able to defend your comments without waving your patriotic credentials around. And stop trying to pretend that I was saying anything about your general character. I was referring to one specific comment that you made saying that if Hamm didn't care about the financial aspect that he would be an atypical American.

It's funny how you are so sensitive about having your own motivations questioned. You'll excuse me if I'm a little sensitive myself, but there are many unfounded comments on this thread implying that anyone who supports Hamm must be a jingoistic Bush-lover. (See post 125 for examples.) Meanwhile, I haven't seen anyone on my side of this issue questioning the patriotism of anyone solely because they do not support Hamm. The only time "anti-Americanism" has come up is when someone has dragged politics into this for no reason at all and made unnecessary and irrelevant comments about America, as you just did.

I don't even care what your feelings about the US are. Not every one who posts on DU is even from the US. I only care when those feelings lead you to unfairly portray a young athlete as the embodiment of all of America's sins and when those feelings blind you to the simple facts of the situation, such as the rules gymnastics teams agree to follow regarding when protests of scores can be made.

[tabasco]

136. You should join the Swift Boat Vets For Truth !

They don't care about a person's contributions to the country either. Like you, they just care that people fall in line with their opinion. Very immature. Maybe you should take a break from the internet, friend.

[Cheswick2.0]

133. he wasn't beaten in the event

The judges failed to take 2/10s of a REQUIRED deduction for a mistake he made. Even at the higher start value if those MANDITORY deductions had been taken the Korean would not even have won the bronze.

[scared]

87. Thank you.

Paul Hamm a spoiled jerk? Please. He didn't deserve the gold or silver? Well, he did fall on the vault, but he had outstanding routines on apparatus that the others did not do as well in. Now, if you want to argue that, fine. It is a very subjective thing.

But if you are going to review the merits of the scoring after the fact, keep in mind that they also did not deduct an extra hold position of the South Korean gymnast. That would have been a deduction of 2/10 of a point. You are only allowed three hold positions, and he clearly had 4. That is an automatic deduction, not a subjective ruling.

No, he should not give the medal back, and I'm sure he's as nice a guy as anyone on this board.

[LisaL]

139. I think so too.

It could have been better for his own life if he returned the medal. From now on, he will be introduced as Paul Hamm, the guy who won the gold medal under questionable circumstances. On the other hand, he could have been introduced as Paul Hamm, a guy who won a sliver medal after graciously returning his gold medal. I know that none of this is Hamm's fault, but life is not fair, is it? When life gives you lemons, you could make lemonade. In this situation, Paul could definetly make lemonade if he wanted.

[greenohio]

152. Paul Hamm, the guy smeared for winning the gold

Or he could be introduced as Paul Hamm, 2004 gold medal winner.

[newyawker99]

150. I disagree.

He won the medal and is not responsible
for incompetent judges. Should the officials
go back and review the Korean score and give him
what he really deserved? If yes, he would receive
no medal at all.

I agree with a previous poster. Hamm played by
the rules and his performance was great except
for the vault. He earned his medal and should
be able to keep it. It is the International
Gymnastics Association which will have to find
a way to get judges who are not partial and who
will award points fairly. The US put in many
years of being deprived of the scores they
deserved. Sometimes, what goes around
comes around.

[rastignac5]

8. Give me a break

The FIG are trying to cover their own incompetent asses by scapegoating an innocent athlete.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/24/gymnastics.judging/index.html

I never thought I'd find a sport in which the judging was more suspect than figure skating, but gymnastics takes the prize. It didn't begin or end with the Yang Tae Young fiasco, in which the Korean's start value in the parallel bars of the men's all-around competition was incorrectly set at 9.9, perhaps costing him the gold. Earlier, on the eve of the men's preliminaries, International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) officials informed three Americans, Blaine Wilson, Brett McClure and Jason Gatson that the start values on their high bar routines, which they'd been using for two years in international competition, were being lowered from 10.0 to 9.9. No explanation for why the sudden change. In response, Wilson and Gatson changed their long-rehearsed routines to get the start value back up to 10.0, and in the prelims Wilson fell on his new move.

The kicker, though, was at last night's men's high bar finals, when Alexei Nemov of Russia, the defending Olympic champion, brought the crowd to its feet with a spectacular, crowd-pleasing aerial show. When the judges put up a score that left Nemov out of the medals, 9.725, the packed stadium started booing and whistling with a ferocity I've never seen at a gymnastics competition. It wasn't just Russian fans. Greeks, Americans, Italians -- all were incredulous that two of the six judges could have marked him as low as 9.60 and 9.65. The cacophony wouldn't abate. For more than 10 minutes the booing and whistling continued as Paul Hamm waited to do his routine. Then, incredibly and without explanation, the two judges who'd given Nemov the lowest marks upped their scores to 9.75. (Start value remained at 10.0, the highest possible.) Nemov's total now was 9.762, still shy of a medal. "I've never seen that done before," U.S. assistant coach Myles Avery said afterward. "It's highly, highly unusual. To change scores because of crowd noise? What it says about gymnastics is not very good."

FIG scurried the judges away before anyone could question them, but the impression it left was crystal clear: These officials are flying by the seat of their pants. The gymnasts deserve better.


Hamm is a gymnast and a sportsman, not a politician. Not a rules maker. Not a judge. He's had a fantastic Olympics, two silver medals and the controversial gold. The controversy was not of his making, but some columnists have suggested, quite publicly, that he should solve it by making the grand gesture of returning his medal, as if it were an errant piece of mail. One actually said he should do so in the interest of improving America's image abroad. Brilliant. Let's blame a gymnast for the decline of America's stature in the world.

Yet he has said, and continues to say, if the FIG tells him to give back the gold medal, he'll abide by its ruling. At this point the controversy has already ruined what had been a lifelong dream. His mother, Cecily, has been crying for two days. His father, Sandy, is beyond disillusionment at the sport he introduced his entire family to. Yet the human element remains lost to the sportswriters, whose work has been made so easy as a result of the Hamm's misery. They pick at the bones of this story like jackals, jabbing at the raw nerves of the innocent athlete instead of going after the officials of the FIG and USA Gymnastics, all of whom have hung Hamm out to dry, leaving him to explain their mistakes and perhaps to arrive at a solution.

[DrDan]

14. he wasn't the best - he was second best

he has the gold because of a mistake - not because of his performance

[rastignac5]

24. Hamm did NOT lose on a judging error!

Degree of difficulty only determines the highest score a gymnast can receive- it does NOT determine the score itself.

If the judges felt the South Korean were the better gymnast, they would have given him the score to beat Hamm. There was nothing preventing them from giving the S. Korean a two-hundredths point higher.

[lastliberalintexas]

30. That's not how gymnastics is scored

A gymnast doesn't start with a zero score to which the judges add points. A gymnast begins his/her routine with the start value, and the judges *deduct* points for errors, and that is how they arrive at the final score. Hence, it is VERY important where the judges place your start value.

If errors requiring 2/10ths deductions are found in a performance, the deductions are made from the start value. Ergo, a start value of 10 means you get a 9.8, while a start value of 9.9 means that you get a 9.7. THAT is how gymnastics is scored, and that is why the South Korean actually would have won the gold if the correct start value had been used. So yes, this *was* a scoring technicality that gave Hamm the gold.

[rastignac5]

32. Not true

Yes, points are deducted for mistakes, but judges use their "judgement" to award a final score. If two gymnasts do the same routine on the pommel horse mistake free, the one with the highest hump and strongest spin will get the higher score.

[LisaL]

52. Well, that is just wrong.

They subtract your mistakes from your highest possible value.
So, if two gymnast do the same routine, yes, one with the highest jump gets a better score. But if one has higher difficulty, he would get the better score even if he didn't have the highest jump.

[rastignac5]

55. If two gymnasts do the same routine, then one can't have a higher

degree of difficulty than the other, now can he?

[GreenArrow]

65. try reading # 52 again

you missed something there. It describes two scenarios, not one.

[alarimer]

35. true

Also they would have to revist an earlier mistake by the Korean on the parallel bars which, if the judges had caught it, would have cost him any medal at all. Because this was a judging mistake and not the result of corruption on the part of officials (like in the skating), the results should stand. There did seem to be a lot of scoring errors in this competition.

[lastliberalintexas]

17. I know that

When I was very young, I even competed myself (in local tournies only- I was never very good). I'm not defending or condemning the sport of gymnastics. The last minute revision for the Americans was terrible, the Nemov situation was awful, the Bulgarian dude on the highbar was a bad call, etc. There were a number of areas where the judging was bad, but no others where there was a simple arithmetic error which is objectively correctable.

What I am saying is that Hamm is acting like a poor, shallow person in wanting to keep something he didn't EARN. I don't care if he's an athlete or politician or artist- the point is the same. If he didn't legitimately EARN the medal, then he should have acted like a grown up and given it up. And he hasn't helped himself in his interviews post-the all around competition, where he acted snooty and defensive, alleging that he did EARN the medal.

I don't give a darn if it has been his lifelong dream. That alone doesn't mean that he should be given a medal, rather than being made to earn it.


I don't really understand why there are so many defenders of this man (here or elsewhere). If he wasn't an *American* and was wanting to keep a medal he didn't earn, would you all feel the same way?

[rocktivity]

26. He's just trying to avoid becoming the next Tonya Harding

or even worse, Milli Vanilli.

Hamm knows he should give the gold back. For all we know, he might want to. But he also knows that if he did, he'd become a national pariah (and, of course, an unpatriotic traitor).

:headbang:
rocknation

[chimpy the poopthrower]

29. on the contrary...

It seems to me that the majority in the US want him to give up or at least share the gold. They are wrong.

[mistertrickster]

42. Good point--we don't have any problem arguing that the Soviets should

give back their basketball medals, but because Hamm is one of ours, he deserves to keep it.

He should give it back. He should be made to give it back if he won't do it himself.

And the Olympic committee needs to do a major overhaul of the scoring criteria and how it is applied to gymnastics. It might be simpler and easier if they had "heats" like in track, and just ranked them 1-8 after they were all done performing. More suspenseful too . . .

Meanwhile, is NBC ever going to actually show FREESTYLE WRESTLING (a sport that isn't subject to mathematical errors by judges)?!? Or will it be just another "fencing" that the announcers don't know beans about so we never get to see it?

[rastignac5]

46. It's amazing how many people have such a strong opinion about this

even though they are completely ignorant about how gymnastics is scored and, thus, actually believe Hamm won on a technical error. What's flaming all these uninformed passions?

[barb162]

144. I listened to a detailed explanation

by a guy who was on the US men's gymnastics team from a few years back. He said the Korean would have been fourth if the judges had taken the mandatory deduction for the illegal hold.

[AgadorSparticus]

154. judges will miss mistakes. that is a given. but they are expected to

start deducting from the proper starting point. to say "well if the judges go back and deduct mistakes made by other gymnasts" is missing the point. this is not about catching all the mistakes. it is about proper math. and i think that the FIG needs to compensate the korean gymnast and Hamm should have the grace to give back his medal.

[wolfgirl]

94. Well said...

Paul and all the team members are suffering for something they did not do. There are many wrongs associated with this mess, none of which are the gymnasts fault. The FIG should have stood firm on the rules rather than being so wishy-washy and putting the onus on Paul.

I know from personal experience that these athletes give their heart and souls for an opportunity to be in the Olympics. Each and every one have been hurt (all of 'em, every country) with this situation.

I knew things were bad at the outset of the team competition when the judges changed the rules re: the high bar routines for the Americans. It didn't sound completely right and now I think these
yahoos have tainted the entire competition.

[Scairp]

33. No way, No how

This is not his fault, and besides, I think he made a spectacular comeback from almost certain defeat. And, FIG hasn't corrected the scores of the Korean, and until they do that, they are asking Paul to give his gold medal to a gymnast who scored lower than he did. If they really want to fix this then they can issue another gold medal and have a special ceremony to give it to the Korean. They did this after the figure skating scandal, and they can do it here.

Paul Hamm is no "Ugly American". HE did nothing wrong. I think your idea of sportsmanship in competitions judged by others is DEAD WRONG.

[lastliberalintexas]

39. You're certainly entitled to feel that way

As is anyone else on this thread who feels that Hamm should keep the medal.

I argue technicalities every day of my working life, whether in motions or at the courthouse. I just *personally* don't believe that they have any place in determining whether someone wins or loses an Olympic medal. Maybe I'm just idealistic when it comes to sports and expect too many people to act like Stefan Edberg did when he was playing tennis (and has since had a sportsmanship award named after him).

Yes, the South Koreans should have noticed the incorrect start value. Yes, the South Koreans should have lodged their protest earlier than they did. Yes, the scoring/judging was awful throughout the gymnastics competitions.

Does that mean that Hamm actually earned the highest score, so as to *earn* the gold? Sorry, but it doesn't.

And I do apologize if I said that Hamm *is* an Ugly American, since I don't know him. What I should have said is that he has *acted* like one in his post-event interviews.

[rastignac5]

41. Are you conveniently ignoring the judging error on the S. Korean's

parallel bar routine that gave him a too-high score, without which he wouldn't have even won the bronze?

[LisaL]

60. If you are going to discuss what should have been subtracted for errors

Hamm's should have received a much lower score on his jump, since he completely missed the landing and fell down on it.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

63. Sigh. First, it's called a vault, not a jump.

Second, he did get a huge deduction for falling. That's why he went from first place to, I believe, twelfth after that event. But he did incredibly well enough on the next few events to pull himself back up to first place.

[LisaL]

64. Well, I know that

But other gymnast got much lower scores when they fell off the apparatus.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

71. Then that's because the rest of their routine was weaker

Believe me, no judge failed to notice that Paul Hamm flubbed the landing and almost ended up in their laps.

[susanna]

145. I would venture to say...

That it's because the start value of their vault was lower than that of Hamm's. When a gymnast falls, regardless of apparatus, their score falls relative to the original start value. This, of course, seems to be something that other posters have tried to explain to no avail. Since I enjoy beating my head against brick walls, I'll try. :-)

For example, I can fall on the landing of a vault with a start value of 9.8 and end up with a score of 9.3. If I were to fall on the landing of a different vault, one with a 10.0 start value, my score is instead 9.5. This scenario is somewhat simplistic and assumes that all other vault elements (speed, block, rotation, form, etc.) are done well.

I competed in gymnastics for a long time. I'm torn as to what Hamm should do, personally. It is a very tough call. The rules of the sport for the questioned competition are clear (SK should have protested in the allotted time), and are squarely on Hamm's side. You can't change the rules after the fact. That said, Hamm has to live with a medal that people think he didn't win. It's a terrible situation all around (no pun intended).

[Avalon Sparks]

85. I completely agree with you Lib in Tex!~

I can't believe he'd even want to keep it, he sounded almost delusional when he said deserved it. His score was beat and he won because the scores were added incorrectly.

I think he's a jerkoff.

He should have given the medal back graciously.

Who wants a medal they didn't really win?

[greenohio]

101. I think he is a hero being smeared

Hamm won. The scores were posted, reviewed and the medals awarded. Latest analysis shows South Korea's Yang Tae-young parallel bar routine had mistakes that should have been penalized that the judges missed.

[wellstone_democrat]

97. west texas agrees with you on this attitude

personally, how could you value something won through an error in math? It was an opportunity missed to show that sportsmanlike behavior that is more talked about than shown.

As for 1972? That was something else involving other people.

[barb162]

143. I think Hamm is right in keeping the gold medal

he did NOTHING wrong. Officiating is so subjective and the Korean would have been 4th if all the mandatory deductions would have been taken. DId you watch the Women's? There was a lot of bad officiating there too and can you imagine if everyone would dispute every call? The Olympics wouldn't be done for a month with all the arguing. You'd be hearing every athlete: How come you took a tenth of my performance and not his/hers for the same thing. In every Olympics judges miss things, grade too high/too low, etc. That should not be the athlete's problem and athletes should not be returning medals.

[KamaAina]

22. Or when S. Korean Si Hun Park returns his 1988 boxing gold

which he lost to American Roy Jones Jr.

[Princess Turandot]

91. And when Oksana Baiul..

whose name I no doubt massacred, gives her gold skating medal to Nancy Kerrigan, whose final performance in those games, far surpassed hers. (Although Oksana has probably already hocked hers to pay for her dui tickets after she moved to America.) The stories about her being a poor little orphan and her crocodile tears were the things that barf is made of. Why not demand that every East German 'manly-girl' who won a medal before the fall of the Berlin wall return theirs, since records now show they were pumped up on steroids, although you just needed to look at them to know that was the case.

The IOC set a bad precedent when they awarded the Russian ice dancers and the Canadians duplicate gold medals. There was a reason everyone in the hall was hissing that night: the Canadians had clearly won. Personally, I think that the Russians should have been disqualified,given that their country's judge was involved in the vote swapping. It might make future skating judges a bit more honest if their skaters are the ones who are punished when their judges cheat.

The members of the American men's team who may very well have gotten screwed out of a team gold medal because of a last minute, and non-protestable change approved by a lead Japanese judge, when interviewed after the heat of the moment had passed, said that the Japanese men had performed admirably and that they were happy for them. They didn't keep saying 'we probably would have won'. (Keep in mind that the 2 men affected by the last minute change generally scored extremely well on that apparatus, and if, which no one knows,they had performed as usual, the American team probably would have won, since they did come in second.)

Paul Hamm has no obligation to give back his medal: he was awarded it and is accused of no wrong-doing. If the guy who came in second had been mis-scored on the very last apparatus in the last performance of the meet, people harping for a second gold medal might have a point. However, this 'mishap' occurred before the meet was over, and there is no way to predict what would have happened to the last performers. Once you change any part of the past, you don't know what the future will be. (I think I learned that watching Star Trek.) Hamm might have gotten further demoralized, and not medaled at all. Plus, they concluded that other guy's routine was worth more after viewing the video tape, but chose to ignore the aspects of the performance which would not have given him the lead.

For the people who say that Hamm didn't perform well on the highbar, all I can say is that when he got the gold medal, I didn't hear a whole lot of boos in the crowd. Personally, I thought he did an outstanding routine.

The Rostov situation was an odd one. He clearly performed spectacularly in the air, but then bobbled on his landing. I don't know what that should have meant to the scoring. Everyone was booing the scores, even the ugly Americans. After all the commotion, Hamm & the guy who the gold medal performed extremely well and actually wound up with tied scores. The Italian won because amid his collection of votes, he had more scores from individual judges that were higher than Hamm's. Hamm didn't protest: it's a quirk of how they judge gymnastics.Even Rostov, an experienced celebrated gymnast, kind of just shrugged his shoulders, as if to acknowledge the nature of the sport he is in. (If it was golf, he and the Italian would have had a rematch to determine the winner.And if you want to keep having re-evaluations of sports via video-tape where an individual's judgement call impacts the outcome, the Yankees might be 36 time World Champions, not just twenty-six.)

Paul Hamm is not George Bush. It is not his job to smooth international relations.He is certainly no 'ugly American': he's a 21 year old kid who worked his ass off to get to where he did. The Greeks viewing the 200 meter race yesterday behaved as ill-mannered louts yet few people here are criticizing them. Even knowing the outcome, at 11:30PM EST last night, I was cheering our guys on. I can understand the Greeks' disappointment (altho not their behavior) over the no-show of their favorite athletes: however, no one seems to be suggesting that the Greek spectators be refunded their ticket cost, which supposedly was the highest priced for any event.

[LisaL]

113. First of all

The gymnast's name is Nemov, not Rostov.
And talking of winter Olympics, there is no prove Russian judges have been involved in vote swapping. What would they be even swapping for?

[Princess Turandot]

122. As the post below explained..

I forgot that it involved 2 different events, although it did involve a French and Russian judge. The French judge was said to have admitted what had happened to someone in either the skating federation or the IOC..i.e. that she agreed to put the Russians in the regular pairs' competition in first place, while the Russian agreed to put the French pair in the dance competition in first place. She then claimed that she had made no such statement. My recollection was that she was banned from judging for some period, but appealed that, and my interest in researching in her fate is not great at this point.

I do apologize to calling Mr. Nemov, Rostov, since he was and has been a great performer.

I still believe, the hordes of better informed people not withstanding, that Oksana Bauil did not deserve the gold medal she received in her event.

[amandabeech]

114. The 2002 Oly judging controversy was about pairs figure skating,

not ice dancing. Pairs skaters do side by side multiple revolution jumps, throw jumps and side by side spins. In Pairs lifts, the man's arms are fully extended above his shoulder in holding the lady aloft. Pairs skaters do not have to be touching one another almost all the time, but if they manage to do their choreography close together or touching, they get higher marks in presentation. This was one aspect of presentation that the Russian pair did better than the Canadian pair that night.

In ice dancing, the couple separates only to do side by side step sequences. The lifts are low, and the man cannot extend his arms above his shoulders. The spins are done together and are of short duration. There are no side by side jumps, but occasionally a little hop or twirl off the ice may be seen by one partner. Dancers may use vocal music now.

The French couple won the ice dancing, followed by a Russian couple. The problem in the Pairs competition involved a deal to throw the ice dancing medal to the French.

For the record, knowledgable skating enthusiasts, participants, judges and coaches from many European countries strongly disagree with your views of the Nancy/Oksana and CAnadian/Russian pair judging. I've been following skating for some time as well as participating for several years, and have had the opportunity to discuss the results with high-level skating people from both the U.S. and Europe. I think that each group looks for something quite different in the second, presentation mark, and that the difference often causes judging controversies even when deals and pressure are not part of the picture. Incidentally, there are frequent scandals in figure skating outside the Olympics. I don't think that there are judged sports without them, and participants in those sports have to learn how to shrug off this stuff as best as possible.

[LisaL]

115. since Russians

Had a strong pair team (one that won gold), but French didn't, what would be Russian swiping the votes for?
Russian dance team won silver.
Why would Russian swipe the votes with French since Russian pair skaters and Dance Skaters could have both won gold medals? Why would Russian want their dance team to come in second after the French?
It makes no sense.

[amandabeech]

116. The Russians were alleged to have more interest

in getting that gold medal for their pair team, but thought that it would be more difficult to secure a gold for their dance team.

The year before in pairs, the Canadians presented a very difficult, complex pair routine, similar in style to the one that the Russians presented at the Olympics. The Canadians did not skate clean--jamie singled her double axel, something she has done before--but they won over a cute, but relatively simple Russian routine to Charlie Chaplin music that the Russians skated cleanly. The Russians, who had won silver in 1998 and I believe the world championships in 1999, realized that the relatively new Canadian pair had the real ability to beat them.

At the beginning of the 2002 season, the Canadians came out with another difficult routine, but couldn't skate it cleanly. The Russians came out with their difficult routine and had more luck skating it cleanly. At the Grand Prix finals just before the Olympics, both teams competed two programs. The Canadians competed their new program as well as the more simple in choreography, but very charming, Love Story program that they had used in 1999 when they weren't that used to skating together. By 2002, they skated Love Story perfectly, but not the new one. The U.S., British and Canadian officials encouraged the Canadians to skate Love Story at the Olympics instead of their new program. In my opinion, this was a mistake for the Canadians. They should have returned to the 2001 program that they could skate cleanly. If they had skated that program clean, I think that they would have clearly won because I think that the French judge might not have given her highest marks to the Russians because the Canadians would have given her plenty of what she wanted to see in the second mark with the difficult program. I was never sure that the French judge was completely cowed by the pressure from the Russians and her own federation. I think that she might have gone for the Canadians if they'd used their much better program. But that's just me.

In ice dancing, protocol judging was far too common. The French had won the year before with a terrific program to Carmina Burana, and had been the bronze medalists in 1998. The Russians really weren't much of a threat to the French in 2002 unless the French fell all over the ice. So the Russians really would have had trouble lining up enough votes for an upset. Besides, the French female ice dancer was formerly a Russian citizen and may have had some extra reinforcement from a shadowy Former Soviet ice dancing patron. It was a very strange story.

[LisaL]

117. If French were so good

why would they need to swipe votes with the Russians?
It is a strange story, and I don't think anything was ever prooven.
Russians certainly have denied there were any vote swiping going on.
Their own dance team got a silver medal, so, basically, the allegations are French swiped with Russians so that French vote for a Russian pair skaters in exchange for Russians voting for a French team instead of a Russian team in dancing? I don't think Russians prefer pair skating to dancing all that much. Furthermore, Russian judge actually voted for a Russian team in dancing to be in first place, so, where was the swipe?
Yet Canadians were awarded a second gold medal.
But they don't want to give a second medal to the South Korean athlete, even though they know that mistake was made.

[amandabeech]

147. My point is not that the Russians like pair skating rather than

ice dancing, only that at the 2002 Winter Olympics, the Russians wanted to help their pairs skaters and the French wanted to secure things for their ice dancers. It could easily have been the other way around. Each figure skating federation supports whatever skaters have a chance to medal without regard to discipline. The Russians historically have been strong in pairs and dance, and since the fall of the Soviet Union, have produced very strong singles skaters, particularly in the men's division with Olympic champions in 1994, 1998 and 2002. The top men's competitor now is a Russian, Evgeny Plushenko. World Champion and Olympic silver medalist Irina Slutskaya has also had a first-rate career, although she may be slowing down a little.

For more viewpoints and discussion of figure skating scandals, check the archives of the Yahoo group Skatefans and the website "Figure Skating Universe." I would strongly recommend NOT POSTING on these subjects in those forums, as doing so is regarded as beating a very, very dead horse. If you want to post, check rec.sport.ice.skating.

There have been many controversies involving judging, pressure and even bribes that do not make it beyond insiders and the specialized internet skating sites. Everthing is always denied. I've met people who have also been involved in gymnastics who told me that controversy is frequent there, too.

Sometimes problems arise in Olympic competition and the general public and sports press becomes aware of the problems. In figure skating, it is doubtful that two gold medals would have been awarded if the controversy had happened at a world championships instead of the Olympics.

It seems that the gymnastics and figure skating federations take different tacks in solving these problems, as seemingly, the Olympic governing body. Also, remember that the figure skating controversy did not involve the USOC, but instead the Canadians, who may view things differently.

I respect Tim Daggett's analysis of the start value of the Korean gymnast's routine involving the 4th hold deduction, which would more than offset the reduced start value. Ignoring that hold was itself a mistake. Frankly, it may be possible that the 9.9 valuation was correct and that the 10.0 valuation was too high. It shows that alternative analyses of routines in judged sports often result in different results, and that reopening a finished competition opens repeated worm cans.

The best solution in my mind would be for competitors in those sports to realize, with all the frustration that it entails, that mistakes in judging happen and that protests get fouled up, and accept the situation. I believe that the solution lies in removing permanently judges who make repeated mistakes and have been involved in vote trading and heavy pressuring.

However, I think that those days ended with respect to the Olympics when the second figure skating medals were issues. Now, issuing a second medal in very controversial situations seems like the best solution if the IGF could bring itself to do so. There were no rules in the figure skating rulebook for a second gold to be awarded, but they did it anyway. I think gymnasts should do the same.

[Puglover]

131. Your post

is full of jingoistic bullshit. Please site where you got the info that Baiyul "hocked" her medal. Moronic comments like that invalidate your entire post.

[amandabeech]

148. Bayul has seemingly recovered from her problems.

I believe that she is getting married soon, and has been doing more professional touring and "competing." She also went back to Ukraine, as a visitor, to look for her father and again to help promote Ukrainian figure skating.

Whether she should have won gold or not, I like many aspects of her skating and felt badly for the hard time she had in life as a young teen. What we saw here was a very, very troubled adolescence, and I'm glad to see that she has herself back on track. I wish her the best and look forward to seeing her skate more in the future.

[LisaM]

4. Was that the basketball game with the clock issue?

Either way. Either the Olympics are about sportsmanship or they are not. I thought there was an additional scoring issue beyond the difficulty factor of the Korean's routine. If it was just messed up numbers and the Korean SHOULD have won, then I think Hamm should give the medal back. It's about the routine, not about scoring errors, for goodness' sake.

I also think that Charles White should step forward and admit that the Phantom Touchdown against Michigan should never have counted! Michigan wins!

[ps1074]

9. They should award the Korean with another gold medal

Keep americans happy, keep koreans happy :)

[malachi]

15. Way too logical. Never gonna happen.

[DrDan]

10. I wonder what the "US Olympics Chiefs" would

have said had the tables been reversed.

I am sure they would have asked the South Koreans to take the high road and return the medal.

We are quite simply a greedy lot.

[rastignac5]

20. What a crock

How does it feel hating your own country so much that you have to pull things out of your ass to denigrate it?

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/oly04/aug04/253301.asp

Strangely, it was Hamm's own Olympic committee, the United States Olympic Committee, that announced it had raised the possibility of sharing the gold medal from the all-around with South Korea.

Only a few hours before the Hamms were set to perform, the USOC confirmed that it had been in talks with the South Korean Olympic delegation over the all-around competition. Spokesman Darryl Seibel said Chairman Peter Ueberroth and Chief Executive Jim Sheer had met with the South Koreans and said the USOC was willing "to consider the notion of a second gold medal being awarded" to Yang.

Of the South Koreans, Seibel said: "It's up to them to determine how they want to proceed. They know we are willing to consider that."

Seibel said USOC officials had been in touch with the leadership of USA Gymnastics, the nation's gymnastics governing body, about the matter.

The South Koreans were happy with the plan.

"I think the U.S. proposal is very good for both," said Jae Soon-Yoo, a South Korean Olympic official. "Our plans for fairness and justice will be materialized."

[DrDan]

25. I don't hate my country - why would you imply such a thing

I do hate the greed that has taken over.

I do hate the lack of a sense of fair play

Who do you think you are to state such a thing.

I am a retired veteran - I've given many years to this country. I don't regret any of them - I would do it again. Even to protect pricks like you.

Sharing - what's fair about that - he wasn't the best! He was second best. It's simply a matter of medal count - and these guys are too greedy to admit he doesn't deserve it.

[LisaL]

74. What is he going to loose, for crying out loud?

Why not give a medal, they could have a nice ceremony, he would get ton of publicity.
He would look gracious and probably get his picture on more cereal boxes.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

76. Gymnastics would lose.

It would hurt the sport immensely to set this sort of precedent. It would hurt all Olympic sports.

Secondly, you are pretty casual about the whole thing. Hamm has been training most of his life to earn this medal. I'm sure he has put in many hours of practice every day of his life, missed out on social events to train, performed through the injuries that are so common in gymnastics, not to mention the emotional investment. And now you want this 21-year-old to give up his medal that he fairly won because South Korea is whining? You certainly are generous... with someone else's achievement.

[LisaL]

79. Let me ask you something, and be honest.

What if situation was reversed, and Hamm was the one that wanted the gold medal, and Korean refused to give it back.
Would you feel the same way you do now?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

81. Yes. And I don't know why you need to ask that.

Why are my motives or the motives of anyone taking Hamm's side automatically suspect? If you know me, you'd know I don't have a jingoistic bone in my body. I just don't like seeing a 21-year-old getting railroaded because nobody bothers to learn anything about the sport before spouting off ridiculous pronouncements and because a bunch of columnists like to stir up controversy.

But now I'll turn it on you. Ane be honest. Would YOU feel the same way if Hamm was South Korean and it was the U.S. trying to pressure the IOC to change the rules?

[lastliberalintexas]

84. The reason you were asked that

is that your posts keep referencing a "whining South Korean." Not a gymnast. Not an athlete. Not an Olympian. Not a person. A *South Korean*.


And I *do* know quite a bit about the sport. People here have not considered the proper way in which gymnastics routines are scored, that is, that scores are arrived at by deducting points from start values, not adding. Once you understand that, then you'll understand why there is a problem with Hamm's medal.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

88. You are flat out lying or mistaken.

Many people on this thread on both sides of the issue have referred to the gymnast who was given the incorrect start value as "the Korean" or "the South Korean" (at least I used the country's more complete name). There is absolutely nothing culturally insensitive about that. However, if you look at the posters who actually called Yang by name at some point, you will find only three of us - sidpleasant, rastignac5, and myself (along with the original post). And all three of us side with Hamm. So I guess by your logic that proves those siding with Hamm are the more culturally sensitive ones, right? It seems to me you are trying desperately to make this about jingoism and it's not.

I never said Yang was "whining" - in fact I don't think Yang or any individual gymnast has done anything wrong here. I said it was "South Korea" who was whining -- those who are acting on behalf of the South Korean team in pushing the FIG to change the rules. The original news story referred to them only as "the South Koreans," so I actually think referring to them as "South Korea" is both accurate and an improvement in terminology. I don't know any of their individual names. I don't know whether the pressure is coming from the SK coach(es) or from some other body.

Why don't all of you stop trying to make this about the USA vs the world? It's pathetic and transparent. The only way the US comes into this at all is that they are finally and correctly standing by Hamm. South Korea has displayed a united front all along. The idea that the US is being a bully here is laughable. The US body has been incredibly wimpy and craven and divided, and that's why Hamm is in the position he is in. They left him hanging out there while Yang had the entire SK body behind him.

[DrDan]

82. he was the second best - does not deserve the gold

"Hamm has been training most of his life to earn this medal. I'm sure he has put in many hours of practice every day of his life, missed out on social events to train, performed through the injuries . . . "

Since when are medals based on how much time an individual spends - or how social activity he missed out on, or how many injuries he has.

They are based on performance - and he was second best

[chimpy the poopthrower]

86. He was not second best

From SI: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/23/swift.gym/index.html

"That is not to say Yang would have finished .10 higher at the end of the night, which some are suggesting. Gymnasts don't operate in a vacuum, nor do judges score in a vacuum.

Everyone knows exactly where they stand relative to the other competitors. Yang might have relaxed with the bigger lead; he might have become uptight and choked; or he might have been perfectly brilliant. We will never know. But it's fair to say his mental outlook would have been altered...

Was a mistake made? Yes, they admitted as much. Did it decide the competition? Well, it affected it, no question. But it is flatly untrue to say if they'd had the start value correct at 10.0, then Yang would have won."

And my point was not that he deserves the gold because of how much he's sacrificed to get there. All the athletes have worked hard to get there. My point was that some people are very casual about expecting him to give up or share the gold, and that I'm sure Hamm and the other athletes don't take it so lightly. Some people act like this is a grade school spelling bee and let's just keep everybody happy whether it's fair or not. Sharing the gold might be a feel-good solution in some people's minds, but that doesn't mean it is right. It cheapens the meaning of a gold medal.

[wolfgirl]

100. As the Mom of

a gymnast, I know what these kids go through every day. It's not
just a sport, it's a life altering experience that takes a huge
toll on them. If I had my way, every last one of these athletes would be awarded a gold medal in recognition of the hours and hours of their dedication and hard work. That is why I wouldn't ask Paul to give it back..and I've heard him say that he would do what is asked of him. But again, it's not his or the Korean athlete's fault. And believe me, the Korean athlete is suffering just as much as Paul 'cause history will mark his name with an * as well as Paul's.

[greenohio]

104. Thats right, first place doesn't mean anything anyway

Hamm won. Move on. Its like asking for the Super bowl rings back after they realize that there was a clip on the final touchdown. We can analyze forever but at some point you have to declare a winner. In the Olympics (with the written exception of drugs, or cheating), that occurs when the medal is awarded. Judging disputes do not constitute revoking a medal.

[DrDan]

130. at last - something we can agree on

He won

He wasn't the best, but he won

Which of those is the Gold Medal suppose to symbolize - I think the former, you the latter

[greenohio]

103. Hamm was the best

You can't call for instant replay of 3 and long that happened in the first quarter after the game is over. There is a time limit. They missed it. Medals awarded it's over. Anything outside of that is cheating.

Besides further analysis showed other mistakes the judges missed in South Korea's Yang Tae-young parallel bar routine that show he shouldn't have won.

[AgadorSparticus]

153. no need to do a replay. just take the same deductions and use the

correct starting value. Hamm did not win the gold. I feel bad that hamm has to endure an emotional rollercoaster on the basis of incompetency, but basic math is that he did not win. And all the other gymnasts know it. I think he knows it. It doesn't mean he isn't a world class gymnast. He is probably one of the best. He just wasn't on THAT day.

[alarcojon]

138. VERY poorly put

the "why do you hate your country" bullshit is not worthy of this board.

[DrWeird]

11. The gold medal isn't something you're supposed to get...

on a cheap technicality.

If he were a good sportsman he'd return the medal.

[Nightowl_2004]

13. I dont know why he even wants it....

Had I been in his shoes, Every time I look at my gold medal I'd feel disgusted "I didn't win this, It's only mine because of a scoring error..." I would much rather give it to the man who rightfully won it and then take the silver or bronze medal...THAT I EARNED.

Just my opinion.

[WatchWhatISay]

16. I have to agree with you

He will be compelled to come back in 2008, because it will never really have full meaning to him.

But I'm sure he'll take the endorsement deals meanwhile.

[sidpleasant]

21. Hamm isn't the villain here

I don't know much about gymnastics but it seems to me that if anybody f**ked up big time it was Yang Tae-young's coaches who failed to notice the incorrect starting score and protest it until two days later. They failed him. Especially at the elite level, coaches should know the rules as well or better than the officials and they should be watching for infractions by their competitors and errors by officials.

[Piperay]

66. That's right

I don't see why Hamm should have to suffer when it was someone else's error.

[susanna]

146. I'm with you.

YTY's coaches were horribly incompetent (and that's being generous) for failing to protest the start value in a timely manner.

[KamaAina]

23. Hey! Let's demand that Bush* give up the White House

He clearly didn't earn it.

[cmd]

37. Hamm* will always have an asterisk after his name

just like the resident.

[LisaL]

56. Well, that would be nice, wouldn't it?

None of us would object to that. So, why object to Hamm returning his gold medal?
It would be better for everyone involved.
Furthermore, he can't state he won cleanly, since he fell in the middle of his competition.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

59. Um. Now he doesn't deserve to win because he had an error in one event?

I think some of you are not even bothering to think before you post any more. You are just blindly adhering to your indefensible viewpoint.

[LisaL]

69. Just because my viewpoint is different from yours

Doesn't mean I am blindly adhering to it, or that it is indefensible.
:spank:

[chimpy the poopthrower]

72. It is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say

"Furthermore, he can't state he won cleanly, since he fell in the middle of his competition."

What does "cleanly" mean? Flawlessly? Did any gymnast give a flawless routine? Perfect routines are very rare. How often does an athlete get a 10.0? Or did you mean "cleanly" as in honestly, which would have nothing to do with his fall. There is no evidence or suggestion of corruption here. And Paul is not the one who made the judging error.

[LisaL]

73. Falling in the middle of the competition.

Is hardly flawless, is it?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

75. That's my point.

You seem to be saying that he shouldn't have won because his vault routine was not flawless. But none of his other events were flawless, and neither was any one else's that night. Flawless routines are very, very rare. To say that he doesn't deserve the gold because he didn't have a flawless routine is just crazy, and shows you know absolutely nothing about this topic.

[LisaL]

78. And my point was

His vault routine was nowhere near flawless.
Anyhow, he said he would abide by whatever is decided.
It seems to me they want the gold medal back, but he doesn't want to abide by it.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

83. You said Hamm "can't state he won cleanly, since he fell..."

That sounds like you are saying his win was not deserved because he didn't have a flawless vault routine. But I'm trying to tell you that flawless routines are very rare. I don't know why you keep harping on the fall. Yes, he fell. The fall hurt him badly. But he made a dramatic comeback. What does the fall have to do with anything? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

And he said that he would do what the FIG asked him to do, but since the USOC and IOC both rejected the letter and refused to even give it to Paul, he never actually got that request. He should never have been pressured to do so in the first place. He's a 21-year-old kid put in an unfair position because of everyone else's mistakes and lack of sportsmanship.

[renotyme]

98. i suppose we really have no choice but to invade s korea

i think they're somewhere near the axis of evil, and now they insulted a good ol merrkin boy, hamm sammich.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

124. No one had a flawless routine

Which is part of the reason why Hamm was able to come back and win the gold.

Anyhow, he said he would abide by whatever is decided.
It seems to me they want the gold medal back, but he doesn't want to abide by it.

Hamm said that he would abide by FIG's decision. FIG never made a decision, instead they asked Hamm to make the decision. It was a 'We can't tell you to give it back because that would be breaking our own rules, but it would sure be convenient for us if you did' sort of thing.

FIG screwed up the points. Then the South Korean team screwed up by not contesting it within the allowed time frame. The points were totaled, signed by the head of FIG, and the medals were awarded. It should have been case closed. Anything else is asking for a rule change after the fact. You don't change the rules after medals are awarded and then take them back. Doing so would set a disastrous precedent. At what point does an athlete know that they get to keep their medal? This entire controversy demeans the spirit of the Olympics.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

27. This is not comparable to the '72 basketball controversy

A broken clock is a malfunction. It seems like that could have been easily corrected, although I don't know all the details.

In this case, the judges made an error, which happens all the time. The gymnast who was given the wrong start value was also not given an automatic deduction he should have been given, so it evened out in a way. If both those errors had not been made, Hamm still would have been in first place.

But the bigger issue is that the South Korean coaches had an opportunity to protest the score and missed that opportunity. It's no different than a football coach who neglects to ask to have a play reviewed after the officials make a questionable call. You don't ask the winning team to give back their trophy the next day because the coach of the losing team made an error.

[petronius]

31. Perhaps what the FIG should do

is gather up a big group of the best regarded international judges, those with a reputation for impartiality and not the ones from these Olympics, put them in a room with a video of the entire competition - every competitor - from start to finish, and let them score the entire thing.

[greenohio]

105. Why stop there?

Lets do it for every event. Lets analyze and dissect until the people with the greatest will and best arguers win. It gives us debate team guys a chance to participate in the Olympics.

[sofa king]

34. I propose a solution.

Cut the two damned medals straight down the middle and put 'em back together, each one half gold and half bronze.

About one percent of the total mass of each medal will be lost to cutting, symbolic of the scoring error.

As a result, both competitors will have a unique medal which by its very existence speaks to the idiocy of the fiasco and which will make both medals even more interesting than they were before.

[greenohio]

106. Or we could move on....

and let Hamm have his day in the sun.

[TahitiNut]

38. It's a JUDGED sport. The judges make "errors" ALL THE TIME.

It's part of the sport, just like WIND is part of sailboat racing. I'll bet a dollar to a moldy old horse turd that those three judges who were suspended made "errors" every time they judged a meet. If they'd set the correct starting values for the routine, they'd almost undoubtedly still have come up with the same final scores.

Anyone that whines about the judges in that sport shouldn't "compete."

[fedsron2us]

134. Are these "judged" events really sport at all ?

Why is gymnastics an Olympic sport but not ballet or flower arranging where the same criteria could apply ? All these type of events make a mockery of the Olympic motto, 'Altius, Citius, Fortius'.

[TahitiNut]

137. The line between a 'judge' and a 'referee' is pretty thin ...

... but I'd say it's been crossed by a long ways in gymnastics and figure skating. When Aesthetics assumes such a high priority, it's certainly in a league with ballet and flower-arranging - both of which I happen to appreciate, personally. (I've had some exposure to the basics and nuances of Ikebana and view it with great appreciation.)

[chimpy the poopthrower]

40. a few editorials that might shed some light on this...

Incidentally, it's not just the USOC that is rejecting the FIG suggestion, it is also the IOC.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/23/swift.gym/index.html

"Let me be clear here, since some self-righteous columnists who wouldn't know a handstand from a night stand have entered the fray: Paul Hamm should not give up his gold medal.

Nor is his gold medal tarnished, as the headline writers have suggested. Nor should a second gold medal in the men's all-around competition be awarded to South Korea's unfortunate Yang Tae Young. This is not another Skategate, where judges in the pairs competition in Salt Lake were caught colluding. It's time for the media to back off...

Disputes over start values occur all the time...The two judges charged with determining a start value must do so in real time, and they make their assessment on the basis of what the gymnast actually does: difficulty of elements, grip changes, releases and positions, to name a few. Not what's planned on paper...

Was a mistake made? Yes, they admitted as much. Did it decide the competition? Well, it affected it, no question. But it is flatly untrue to say if they'd had the start value correct at 10.0, then Yang would have won."


http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/opinion/index.php?ntid=9057&ntpid=0

"The unwarranted criticism of Hamm is the product of a myth - the notion that Yang is being denied his rightful medal because of a "technicality." In fact, the "technicality" is an important rule that helps preserve the integrity of the sport.

At stake is a requirement that challenges to scoring errors be filed at the time the errors occur. The South Korean team was well aware of the rule. In fact, the South Koreans had correctly filed a challenge in an earlier event. But the challenge to Hamm's victory was not made until after the event was over.

The rule correctly recognizes that if a mistake is not discovered until after the competition is over, it's too late.

Furthermore, if the competition is reopened to correct one mistake, should it be reopened to correct all mistakes? Video shows that judges missed an error Yang made in his parallel bars routine that would have reduced his score. Where do the corrections stop?"


http://www.heraldandnews.com/articles/2004/08/26/news/sports/sports3.txt

"spend much time in the world of sports and Yang's woe is something that really is not that rare. Mistakes like his happen all the time, in a variety of sports...

Numerous reports, however, no one working the officials' table remembers seeing anyone from South Korea near the judges' table when someone should have...

Even in the National Football League, coaches must challenge a call before the next snap. Those kind of rules are standard operating procedures in almost every sport.

Unfortunately, some South Koreans officials are trying to cover their own brutal mistakes at the expense of Paul Hamm."


EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to bold everything.

[rastignac5]

43. Excellent links n/t

[Javaman]

45. All I know is...

If it was an American that had been short changed by bad judging, every American would be up in arms screaming foul.
The hypocrasy is blinding.

[LisaL]

48. Exactly.

I agree completely.
Why couldn't he return his gold medal, if just to show some class?
I don't think it would hurt him personally, and in fact could help him in the long run because it would show him as a person who doesn't want to take what he doesn't deserve.

[rastignac5]

50. You're throwing accusations of hypocrisy at a what-if?

Hey, if that's all you got...

[chimpy the poopthrower]

51. Not this American.

Not anyone who tries to understand the scoring and who actually is paying attention to the facts rather than just believing what some lazy journalists are spouting because they love the controversy.

Ironically, the reason this fiasco advanced so far in the first place is that South Korea lobbied hard for Yang while the U.S. failed to stand by 21-year-old Hamm and just let him twist in the wind because they're a bunch of cowards.

[LisaL]

54. He fell in the middle of the competition, for crying out loud.

He completely fell on his jump.
How in the world can you win a gold medal in a all around if you completely screw up in the middle of the competition?
A gold all around should be for a person who does cleanly on all of his routines.
How can you claim some sort of high moral ground, if just because of that?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

61. You are talking outta your a**

There are 6 events. Yes, he had a bad error in one of them. It took him from first down to 12th. But then he redeemed himself on the next few events and won. That's like saying a football team doesn't deserve to win because it fumbled the ball at some point!

[susanna]

149. Please consider this, lizzy

You can seriously wipe out in gymnastics and still win. A fall is not an automatic disqualifier. It's all about total points, not one bad routine.

Hamm was given a lot of openings to undo the damage from his vault during the rest of the competition. Had the other contenders performed better, Paul Hamm would probably never have medaled after his fall. The other athletes kept losing a tenth of a point here, a twentieth of a point there. That adds up quickly in gymnastics.

In his defense, Hamm buckled down and gave (IMHO) some personal best performances without any more major errors, amidst a lot of poor-to-average performances from his competitors.

His should be one of the truly great "comeback" stories in the sport. This entire mess has obscured his rightful achievement in fighting his way back to where he wanted to be: on the medal stand.

[Princess Turandot]

123. When the American team participants..

had the point value of their routines taken out from under them at the last minute, which I'm sure the gymnastic 'experts' posting here would acknowledge put them at a huge disadvantage, and was also somewhat surprising, few Americans were screaming foul. The participants were initially angered, but that's understandable. The rule was that the judges could make an arbitrary change like that at the last minute, despite the fact that their routines had been valued at the higher level at the world championships. That was the rule, and the American team abided by it. One of their best performers fell starting his routine because he added something to it to increase its point value. Given his past success on his planned routine, there's a good chance that had the judges not changed their minds two days before the competition started, that he would have performed as usual. The Americans might likely have gotten the team gold medal, since despite that major blunder, they still came in second.

Should the Japanese team feel that they 'lost face' because a Japanese judge approved the last minute change, and give the American team their gold medals? No one is asking for that to be done.

[AgadorSparticus]

157. yup, it is. it's sad that we seem to only value the medal or the "win"

[mistertrickster]

49. Well, that changes things --if it is not clear that the Korean

would have won, then Hamm shouldn't have to relinquish his gold and the Korean shouldn't get one.

I thought it was an open-and-shut case.

[rastignac5]

53. Congratulations- you actually took the time to educate yourself

rather than rely on conflict-loving gutter journalism.

[Cocoa]

47. ok, FIG, you're now in the Axis of Evil

[goforit]

57. LOL!!!!...It would be the honorable thing to do....Hand the Gold over.

And you all think I'm talking about Hamm.....

Well, I am, but Bush Sr. can hand back over his as well!!!

[LisaL]

58. You have to have class

To hand back something you don't deserve.

[greenohio]

107. You have to have nerve...

to demand something that is not yours. I'm talking about Hamm here. Shrub couldn't buy class or nerve.

[rastignac5]

68. Greek fans have no class

As long as we're on the subject of sportsmanship, let's give a big shoutout to Greek fans for booing and delaying for ten minutes Hamm's individual high bar performance.

And let's give them another big shoutout for doing the same to the three American runners in the 200m final because their own runner refused to show up for a drug test.

[LisaL]

70. It had nothing to do with Hamm

They were upset that another gymnast got a low score. And that gymnast wasn't Greek, he was Russian. They were not booing Hamm.
Even commentators were surprised that Russian gymnast got such a low score.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

77. the fans were booing because of the low score that was given

to the precvious athlete.

not everyone in the stands is greek either.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

127. At some point

the booing changes from support of the previous athlete into a hindrance of the next athlete. And that point passed long before Hamm even started his routine. I should also note that the booing continued into the beginning of his routine.

I blame the audience, though, not the Greeks.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

80. One more editorial to add

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_jim_litke_gym_2

"Incompetence may be inconvenient — criminal, even, in a few special cases — but in sports it's a way of life. If bad calls, like bad business deals, were open to review forever, no game would ever end. There would be no winners and losers, only lawyers. George Steinbrenner would own judges, not ballplayers.


If this latest scandal at the Olympics doesn't have you worried, it's only because you haven't been paying attention. Hamm, on the other hand, hasn't had time to think about anything else. He's the only one in this whole mess who didn't do anything wrong...

Maybe that's why the Koreans enlisted the U.S. Olympic Committee in a quest for what came to be called an "equitable solution," which, it turns out, is just a euphemism for "where's mine?"...

The scary thing is that Grandi's feel-good solution is picking up steam. Everybody from pundits to voters on Web site polls have been suggesting Hamm turn the medal over, as though the gesture would somehow make him more noble."

[fishwax]

109. What did Yang Tae-young do wrong?

First, let me say that generally speaking I agree with your position on this. The whole situation is pretty unfortunate, but all the anger should be directed toward administration figures: whether FIG for expecting Paul Hamm to take the heat and responsibility for their foul up, or the US for leaving Hamm out to dry. I think it's pretty absurd for people to expect Hamm to give up a medal that he did earn (though I might not object to the double gold thing).

But anyway, that aside, the thing that troubled me about that editorial when I read it a couple of days ago is that the editorial says Hamm is the only one who did nothing wrong, but I can't figure out what the South Korean did wrong. And I was pretty dismayed at the TV announcer during the event finals, who seemed to (mis)direct a lot of his frustration to wards Yang Tae-young. For example, when Yang screwed up on the high bar, the announcer said, quite vindictively, "well, you can say it's harsh, but all I can say is: Paul Hamm never would have messed up his high bar routine that badly." As if that had anything to do with anything. Yang had been through a pretty hard few days too, not just Paul.

I don't think either Paul Hamm or Yang Tae-young should come under criticism here. Both did exactly what they were supposed to do as athletes. The sports bureaucracy, on the other hand, face planted in a big way.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

126. Yang Tae Young didn't do anything wrong

But he and his coaches missed their chance to have the score corrected within the bounds of the rules. The challenge several days later was likely from a South Korean representative and not Yang himself though.

And I agree that the announcer's comment towards Yang was completely inappropriate.

[Generic Other]

89. If he ever wants to be President of the US, he should return the medal

:)

[PassingFair]

90. The Correct Answer Is:

Who gives a s**t.

[Barkley]

92. If was a 'judging error' that awared Yang Tae-young instead of Hamm

We would have invaded Athens by now.

[TSIDTPIG]

93. What if it was Iraq or France with this dilemma?

Would our response be the same?

[despairing optimist]

102. So this roadshow might hit NYC in 2012?

I'm heading outta town then. I thought sports were supposed to build character. Looks more like character assassination here. The athletes aren't to blame; as usual it's the refs, judges, and similar "nonpartisan" players who harm the spirit of the games.

Where's the marketing guy with the "New, Improved" formula? Olympiads desperately need one.

[fishwax]

110. The marketing people are a huge part of the problem

;)

[lil-petunia]

132. brilliant! and true

I can see two cereal companies having to rethink their whole campaign.

Almost like a Jessica Lynch situation. "Hey. let's make us a hero" Reminds me of Rocky horror.

[greenohio]

108. Move on people

Hamm won. He earned it. Get over it. And quit being so self righteous by demanding that he turn over the gold.

[Owl]

111. If he received it in error,

he should return it graciously. To do likewise is dishonorable.

- Owl

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

129. He did not receive it in error

The judges did their best to score the athletes properly. The athletes and their coaches accepted the scores. The points were tallied up and everyone agreed that Hamm was the winner. Hamm was awarded the gold medal for having the most points.

Later, it was discovered that an error had been made by the judges that could have (not would have) made a difference in the final scores. People are suggesting that Hamm return his medal on a 'what if'. Judges make errors all the time. Sometimes it breaks for you, sometimes against you. That's part of competing. An analogous situation would be taking the Superbowl Trophy away from the winning team because upon reviewing the game footage several days later it was determined that a referee had made an incorrect call that may have changed the outcome.

[SoCalDem]

112. We have digital video..we have computers..What's the rush??

All competitors should compete...then the judges should be shown the videos in slowed down fashion so they can see exactly what was done.. Then they all vote..Results posted the next day..No mad frenzy ..plenty of time to check results for errors..Simple..

[chimpy the poopthrower]

118. Yet another good editorial

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04238/367279.stm

And here's what I'm noticing - most of the editorials supporting Hamm seem to be written by actual sports columnists. Most of the articles sugesting Hamm should give up or share the gold seem to be written by know-nothing busybody journalists. Real athletes know how to follow the rules.

[DaveSZ]

119. They could just give the other guy a gold

How'bout it?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

120. Great. America is happy. South Korea is happy.

The only sacrifice is the integrity of the rules. The only loser is the sport of gymnastics and possibly the Olympics itself. But that's a small price to pay to avoid any unpleasantry, right?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

125. For all of you trying to make this about American imperialism...

Cut it out. Don't make Paul Hamm your poster boy for what's wrong with America the way the Miami "exile" crowd made Elian Gonzalez the poster boy for their own political agenda. I have seen no shortage of comments on this thread and other threads that imply that anyone supporting Paul Hamm must be doing so out of some overdeveloped sense of nationalism. STOP playing that card! This is not 1932 Berlin.

Here are just some -- not all -- of the comments in that vein on this thread alone. This is not one or two individuals posting the same sentiment over and over, but many separate posters:

17 - If (Hamm) wasn't an *American* and was wanting to keep a medal he didn't earn, would you all feel the same way?
42 - we don't have any problem arguing that the Soviets should give back their basketball medals, but because Hamm is one of ours, he deserves to keep it.
10 - I wonder what the "US Olympics Chiefs" would have said had the tables been reversed. I am sure they would have asked the South Koreans to take the high road and return the medal. We are quite simply a greedy lot.
79 - Let me ask you something, and be honest. What if situation was reversed, and Hamm was the one that wanted the gold medal, and Korean refused to give it back. Would you feel the same way you do now?
98 - i suppose we really have no choice but to invade s korea. i think they're somewhere near the axis of evil, and now they insulted a good ol merrkin boy, hamm sammich.
45 - All I know is... If it was an American that had been short changed by bad judging, every American would be up in arms screaming foul. The hypocrasy is blinding.
47 - ok, FIG, you're now in the Axis of Evil
92 - If was a 'judging error' that awared Yang Tae-young instead of Hamm, we would have invaded Athens by now.
93 - What if it was Iraq or France with this dilemma? Would our response be the same?
(And I won't even get into the idiocy of post 84)

Enough already! I'd like to point out that while you may self-righteously think of yourselves as voices in the wilderness crying out for justice for that underdog South Korean gymnast, the fact is that "The results of The USA Today's online poll on what people think about Paul Hamm's receiving a higher score because of a scoring error showed that of the 26,919 people who voted in the poll as of August 22, 11:00 a.m., 84.3 percent said that Yang deserves the gold medal, whereas Hamm should be given the silver." http://english.kbs.co.kr/olympic/news/news/1328048_10678.html

Yang, the South Korean gymnast who was given the wrong starting score, has done nothing dishonorable. But he is no underdog:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/sports/olympics/25gymnastics.html
"By then, a frustrated Hamm had decided to mount his own public relations campaign... 'I felt really horrible that no one was defending me, not USA Gymnastics, not the F.I.G. who caused the whole thing, nobody,' Hamm said. 'So I just wanted to do it for myself.'...

'I don't feel that my medal is tainted, but I guess I have to explain that myself because USA Gymnastics let me down,' he said... '(The president of USA Gymnastics) said to some reporters that I should give my medal back. On TV, he said I should definitely keep it. That's the problem: I don't know where he stands.'

Hamm has tried to stand up for himself, but it has been difficult. He said that no one had told him about the possibility of his sharing the gold medal until he found out from reporters at the gymnastics arena... 'Here is the press asking him to give up the medal, and he doesn't even know anything about it,' (Hamm's father) said. 'Everyone else, USA Gymnastics, the F.I.G., was ducking and hiding. They left him out there alone.'...

'He told me, The Koreans have their entire country behind them, and I can't get one official from my country to stand up for me.' (Hamm's agent) said. 'As a champion, he shouldn't be going through this. He can't wait to get out of Athens.'"

I think this whole fiasco is so sad for Paul Hamm. Far from everyone in the US rallying behind him, the vast majority seem to think he doesn't deserve his medal -- but they are just plain wrong. Columnists who don't know anything about gymnastics are writing that he should give up or share his medal. The USOC was actually considering having the two countries share the medal. It was the IOC that put a stop to that. Hamm is correct that Yang has his entire country behind him. But 21-year-old Hamm is left to fend for himself. The USOC may finally be showing some support for Hamm but it is too little, too late as far as I am concerned.

If you want to disagree about the particulars of this situation, that is one thing. But DO NOT pretend that this has anything to do with the US bullying the rest of the world. If anything, it is South Korea that is the bully in this situation. And DO NOT try dragging the Iraq mess or Bush's illegal selection or the Cold War or any other unrelated business into this matter.

I know a lot of people are sick of this topic, and say "who cares"? But I can't remain silent when I see everyone piling on to some hardworking kid who did nothing wrong and who has had what should be the greatest moment of his life ruined by other people's ignorance and cowardice. Paul Hamm is not the whipping boy sent to atone for George Bush's sins. If people on here would have kept this within the realm of sports, I don't think these threads would have generated so much activity. If you want to see this topic settle down, stop infusing politics into the situation and making this into something more than it is. Stop projecting the shortcomings of the US onto a young athlete who did what he was supposed to do.

[LisaL]

135. An athlete competing in Olympics

represents his country to the world, doesn't he?

[AgadorSparticus]

155. yes, if the shoe was on the other foot, i'd expect the very same

thing from the South Korean athlete. It is about sportsmanship, character, and grace. Winning ISN'T everything.

[barb162]

140. Hamm should not return the medal

For what? If the Olypics Committeee wants to completely review by tape every single athlete's performance for any errors or markdowns, they should have told that to all of the athletes before the games started. The Koreans should have disputed the call in the proper time frame as they were allowed to do under the rules. Hamm won fair and square.

[Algorem]

142. If Hamm returns medal,

Eggggs should also let's face it.

[allalone]

156. I know you're all gonna jump me,

but why would you even want to keep something you know you didn't earn?