Veterans Favor Bush, Poll Shows (WP)

[Nambe]

Washington Post

Despite Kerry's courting, veterans say they trust President Bush more than Kerry as commander in chief, 56 percent to 38 percent, according to a report released yesterday by the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey. ..

Polling showed some evidence that Kerry's advantage coming out of his party's convention in Boston was blunted by the attacks. But the poll also shows that Kerry did hold onto a significant improvement in the way veterans perceive his anti-Vietnam War activities.

"I don't think the numbers clearly say he was hurt by the swift boat thing,'' said Adam Clymer, political director of the survey. "The fact that Kerry's favorable and unfavorable numbers maintained the bounce out of the convention show the issue hasn't been devastating among veterans."

Before the convention, 30 percent of veterans said they approved of his postwar activities. Just after the convention, until Aug. 5, that jumped to 43 percent. In the latest survey, 40 percent said they still approve, compared with 52 percent who disapprove of his protests. ..

Ride Don’t Drive * * It’s Global Cool

[unblock]

1. 38% for kerry is actually pretty damn good for a democrat

veterans are usually solidly republican.

[WI_DEM]

13. granted that the GOP usually wins veterans

but Dems still get a solid minority of their votes. I think Gore got ini the high 30's in 2000.

[Cha]

14. These veterans must not be paying attention

Because the bushites are doing Nothing for them! Except discarding them.

[Born Free]

38. Many buy into the myth the GOP is "tough"

Many I know, and most I work with are veterans,(as am I), and most that support the bush coward just buy into anything much like the ditto heads. If you challenge them, they just come up with crazy excuses, some still blame Clinton for everything- if Clinton had not got a blow job, the republicans would not have accused him of "wagging the dog" going after Bin Laden and 9/11 could have been prevented - it is therefore Clinton's fault for 9/11. It's crazy twisted logic, it all boiled down to the blow job. It's the newest weapon the terrorists will use. ( sarcasm) It's sad, since 9/11, I know two black Muslims that have been afraid to admit it to others, they are good men, have good values but because of the possibility of hostility they basically are afraid to speak out for their own beliefs, they say they do not belong or follow any particular faith. However, there are many vets that can reason, and see the coward bush for what he is. unfortunately,, they tend to be less vocal so you don't hear them as often.

[Rambis]

43. McGovern said it

"I don't know when or how this happened but the GOP has convinced the American public that Liberals ie Democrats are soft on defense" They have controlled the political language of debate that is how.

[dennis4868]

52. why?

What percentage of the vet vote did Gore get in the 2000 election (the ones that were counted)?

[fearnobush]

2. These are his exact pre-convention vet numbers.

They will grow again as more truth is exposed. I was glad to see Vets at my Kerry Meetup tonight.

[TaleWgnDg]

3. oh, no, NOT Adam Clymer of . . .

the open mike incident -- (Bush to Cheney, "oh, lookit, it's Clymer, that major league ***hole!")

I figure with THAT build-up, anything Clymer has to say must be pretty damn credible.

edited to include this url:

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/09/04/cuss_word/?x

[qanda]

4. Please don't flame me for saying this, but...

If veterans are foolish enough to trust the AWOL idiot over a war hero then they will deserve what they get if they help put Bush back in the White House.

I'll reserve the rest of what I was going to say for my own journal so that it doesn't end up in the Wall Street Journal.

[calimary]

9. I can't fault you, at all, for feeling that way. It completely escapes me

how ANY veteran can support this asshole over Kerry - one of their own brothers-in-arms who volunteered to go to war. And they'd rather have the First Chickenhawk??????????????

[TaleWgnDg]

12. flame flame FLAME !!!

dear gods, may the giant yellow bird rise and spread its toes up yer nose!!

THE COUNTRY CANNOT ENDURE ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF THAT INCOMPETENT NINCOMPOOP.

=======================================
"I'm the commander, I do not need to
explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the President.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me
why they say something, but I don't feel like
I owe anybody an explanation ..."
— GWBush, asserting what seems to be
a messianic complex.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=16802
=======================================

[barb162]

28. they trust him because they see him as commander in chief?

right or wrong? I would love to see a good shrink question a few average vets who are pro-Bush and find out why they go for him over Kerry. Because Bush has been sending people to be killed for a useless war, he has been cutting their benefits, etc. WHat do they really see in Mr. AWOL? I read an interview a while back from 2 pilots who were in that Alabama air base who said they never saw Bush the entire time Bush was assigned there. And the pilots all lived in the same building. They said they would never vote for Bush because Bush never showed. Now these two guys had their heads on straight. What about all of these others.

[dennis4868]

54. 2 pilots who were in that Alabama air base

i wish they would start a Alabama Air National Guard for the Truth campaign....that would be sweet!

[ElectroPrincess]

45. Not the Women Veterans

A few weeks back the Commentator of a poll said that Women Veterans were not "figured in" (what? we don't count?). If we were on THAT poll it would have evened out.

Also the polls have to have an even distribution of newly discharged back up to WWII. I wonder if they controlled for that factor also.

This Woman Army Veteran will vote for John F. Kerry.

George W. Bush = "Miserable Failure" INDEED!!!

[jonnyblitz]

64. I agree and I am a vet. n/t

[grytpype]

5. Who has been worse for vets than Bush?

Who could possibly deserve the veteran vote LESS than Bush? He is destroying the Army and Marine Corps with his insane project in Iraq, he has cut military salary and benefits, he is underfunding the VA, he is attacking the honor and patriotis of a remarkable example of a veteran -- Kerry. How can they like him? I don't get it.

[leftchick]

41. I don't get it at all either....

JK has spent his career in the Senate fighting for Veterans and they want to vote for the asshole who takes everything from them? WTF kind of kool-aid do they drink?

[dennis4868]

56. and in the 1970s....

was no where to be found when they were giving their life for this country....I JUST DONT GET IT!

[alcuno]

6. Are veterans former military or former military in a war?

My dad was drafted and spent two years in Germany cleaning guns. Is he a veteran?

[proactiv]

15. Yes, he is considered a veteran.

[alcuno]

48. Welcome to DU, proactiv.

I asked my dad this summer and he said he didn't know.

[TahitiNut]

19. Someone who was in the military is called a 'veteran.'

If they served in a combat zone and saw combat, they're a 'combat veteran.' (Some of us don't say it, even though we could. Personally, I save it for the guys like Kerry, not someone like me for which actual shoot-back combat was fairly rare.) Someone who served in Vietnam is called a 'Vietnam veteran.' (Those who never crossed Vietnam's borders but served during the Vietnam war call themselves 'Vietnam-era veterans.' Sometimes they misleadingly drop the '-era,')

Your dad's a veteran.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

62. Nice breakdown...

I'm a veteran and my husband is Vietnam-era vet...he was in BAMC during his enlistment, caring for the wounded from that war. I enlisted during the cold war, and the closest I came to any kind of combat was being on 72 hr. alert for Honduras. We are proud of our service and despise the current CIC for his cavalier use of the greatest military in the world.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to see the breakdown of female/male veterans, and their support (or not) of GWB. MKJ

[xray s]

7. what about active duty and their families?

that is where I think Kerry is making real inroads.

[otohara]

8. Vets Won't Be Deciding Factor - Will They?

how big is this group?

[TahitiNut]

20. There are about 27 million veterans in this country today.

That's about 13% of all adults over 18. About 10 million are over 65. About 2 million are women. About 7.5 million are Vietnam-era veterans. Also, about 7.5 million are disabled.

There are 7 states with 1 million or more veterans. These states include California (2.6 million), Florida (1.9 million), Texas (1.8 million), New York (1.4 million), Pennsylvania (1.3 million), Ohio (1.1 million) and Illinois (1.0 million).

[jdj]

25. And of these, they polled exactly 728. (link to actual survey)

everyone needs to go to the Annenberg site and read the study for themselves.

I can't cut and paste it cause it's pdf and I don't know how to get it to work, but the margin of error was +/- 4 percent, and according to them the favorable/unfavorable ratings are not significant for Kerry.

The actual study has a much more positive and neutral lead, this is major spin.Here's the link anyway if any one wants it from the horses mouth.

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/naes/2004_03_veterans-views_%2008-26_pr.pdf

[54anickel]

29. Here' a snip

America’s military veterans, a distinctly Republican chunk of the electorate, think much more highly of George W. Bush than of John Kerry. But the Democratic convention improved veterans’ overall impression of Kerry, and about as many now view him favorably as think of him unfavorably, the University of Pennsylvania’s National
Annenberg Election Survey shows.

Fifty-nine percent of 728 veterans registered to vote and interviewed from August 6 through 24 said they had a favorable opinion of Bush while 32 percent had an unfavorable view. By contrast, 42 percent viewed Kerry favorably and 44 percent unfavorably. The difference between Kerry’s favorable and unfavorable ratings was not statistically significant; the poll’s margin of sampling error was plus or minus four percentage points.

The difference in their opinions of the two candidates reflected veterans’ underlying partisanship. Thirty-seven percent of registered veterans called themselves Republicans and 23 percent said they were Democrats, a sharp contrast to the general public, where 33
percent identified with each major party. Veterans, who made up about 15 percent of this sample, are consistently more Republican than the public generally.

Still, Kerry’s August standing was better than the 37 percent favorable, 45 percent unfavorable rating veterans gave him between July 5 and 25, the day before the Democratic convention began. On several measures, Kerry made modest gains during and immediately after the convention, which concluded on July 29. But most of these
gains washed away in the polling beginning August 6. That was the date when the television advertisement questioning his service in Vietnam began to attract national attention, but renewed assaults by the Bush campaign on his attitudes toward the war in Iraq were another important factor in this period.

[Erika]

10. Kerry Is Doing Great in Stats

In fact, a backlash is developing because of the Bushie partisan attack. America has to once again deal with that our government committed our kids to fighting wars with countries that were never a threat to us.

[WI_DEM]

11. if Vets can't see the truth then I don't know what is wrong with them

[smirkymonkey]

Then they are obviously brain damaged from their participation

in the war.

WHY ON EARTH would you favor an excuse of a man who dodged the war, went AWOL, never worked - let alone served - a day in his life and who is spitting in their faces by cutting benefits and devaluing their contributions.

The reupukes don't care about you guys!! You're nothing more than cannon fodder that has outlived it's purpose to them.

What the hell is wrong with them.

[zmdem]

30. Service in Viet-Nam causes brain damage ?

That would seem to argue in favour of Pres. Bush, since he did not serve in Viet-Nam. Sen. Kerry did. Are you suggesting that the Senator is brain damaged ?

Also, did service in other wars cause brain damage ? Perhaps Washington, Hamilton, and Monroe were brain damaged. How about Th. Roosevelt, Truman, and John F. Kennedy. John Marshall also comes to mind.

[smirkymonkey]

47. Not all.

only the vets who are voting for Chimp.

[onehandle]

16. How 'bout Iraq War Vets and their families?

Let's compare, shall we General Rove?

[ThePhilosopher04]

17. Veteran's votes aren't going to make or break...

this election by a long shot unless one candidate or the other pulls an OVERWHELMING percentage, say more than 80 percent and that isn't going to happen.

[smirkymonkey]

18. dupe

[leesa]

21. Any veteran who can't see through this shit can't be very bright.

[zmdem]

24. Insulting them isn't helpful

The assumption that anyone who holds a different opinion than oneself is an idiot is belied by experience. Would we assume that either Jefferson or Hamilton must be an idiot ? Not likely. Demonstrabley each was very intelligent, patriotic, and thoughtful; yet their political views were greatly at odds, far more than, say, those of Pres. Bush & Sen Kerry.

[Enraged_Ape]

31. F*ing stupid is as f*ing stupid does. They are f*ing stupid.

If a black person were to support the Grand Wizard of the KKK for President, I'd call him or her stupid too. Actually, I'll give these vets the benefit of the doubt and call them fucking crazy.

[zmdem]

36. I agree with your example

An extreme one to be sure. Perhaps so extreme as to be silly ?

Since you were replying to my post, perhaps you could address my comparsion, i.e., Jefferson vs. Hamilton, surely a more relevant one, as we would be discussing real politicians, rather than Grand Wizards of the KKK, etc.

[Enraged_Ape]

42. I find nothing silly about it

I find it quite an apt analogy. Can you name one thing the Bushies have done for veterans in this country? Aside from making lots of new, disabled and/or dead ones to add to their ranks?

And as far as Jefferson vs. Hamilton, as I recall their main differences were oriented around fiscal policy in the new republic. Hamilton even endorsed Jefferson for President, much to the chagrin of his old buddy Aaron Burr, who later killed him.

If Hamilton had such a successful track record of screwing over a segment of society as bad as Bush has screwed over the vets in this country, and if he had run for President (which, if I recall my American history correctly (it's been many years), he didn't), I would have called any of his victim-endorsers stupid and/or crazy as well.

[zmdem]

51. Jefferson /Hamilton debate much bigger than fiscal issues

Question still is: are either Jefferson or Hamilton idiots because they held fundamentally different views of America ? It's possible both were idiots, but they both cannot have been right, if we view politics as a zero sum game.

[Enraged_Ape]

58. I'm sorry. You must be having a discussion with someone else.

I'm talking about people who would support a Presidential candidate who has actively and repeatedly endorsed policies that have caused harm to them and people like them. Those people are idiots and/or crazy.

I am not talking about two high-ranking political figures of yore who had differing (and conflicting) political philosophies. Either could be right and either could be wrong, dependent on many factors and one's point of view. Of course they were not idiots.

Veterans who support Bush for President are crazy and/or idiots. When you want to discuss THAT, or even the broader topic of the sanity/cognitive ability of anyone who would perform an action that is patently against their own best interests, come back.

[progressivebydesign]

37. It's not about thinking they're idiots because we don't agree...

... we think they're idiots because they SUPPORT someone that has actively worked to reduce their benefits, harm their brothers and sisters in arms, and screw over the military for four years now. THAT'S why some of us feel that veterans that would support Bush, who has done all those things, are idiots.

It's like the chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.

[atreides1]

60. I'm A Vet and I Agree With leesa

Blind loyalty to an office isn't the sign of intelligence, some vets I've spoken to don't want to look any further then "he's the President" belief.

A difference of opinion that is based on facts and not believing the talking points is a sign of intelligence. And let's face it the facts are there if you look for them.

Jefferson and Hamilton were intelligent men who looked at information , not blind loyalists who believed what someone else was
telling them was true.

[GaryL]

22. Not exactly the brightest folk.

I listened to two puke friends of mine (both veterans of the clerical type) who bitched and moaned how Kerry cut their benefits. I reminded them it's the Congress, not the Senate that sets the VA budget and BTW, they voted by the narrowest of margins to cut benefits over the next ten years (passed by pukes). Stupid assholes.

[DemMother]

23. Battleground Poll has more positive spin on vet vote

from NewDonkey.com

"Interestingly enough, the poll has Bush winning a big 5 percent of Democrats, as opposed to the 15 percent reported by the LA Times poll. It also shows Kerry up by 5 among households with veterans, and only down 3 among vets themselves."

http://newdonkey.com/

Good information about this poll, which shows Kerry leading 44 to 43, and 49 to 47 when leaners are included.

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. The lingering effects of agent orange and nuclear tests?

Or perhaps vets tend to be less educated than other groups?

[cyr330]

27. Fools

I hate to say it, but if Bush wins with their votes, they're going to get exactly what they deserve. . . .

[whirlygigspin]

33. millitary morons,yes sir yes sir three bags full

you gotta feel bad for any women married to these apes.

They don't give a shit about anything but proving their dicks work,
wow, yeah, i'm impressed.

Great example for the kids.

[TahitiNut]

35. Was there a sale on broad brushes today?

:eyes:

[daleo]

32. A large percentage of this is probably just a gender gap effect

"In the 2000 election, Al Gore won the women's vote by 11 percent."

http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2004/Apr/14-284075.html

If approximately equal numbers of men and women voted, then Bush must have won the men's vote by about 11% as well (as the vote was nearly evenly split). So, 10% or so of the 18% Republican lead among veterans is just a reflection of overall gender trends, given that veterans are overwhelmingly male. A fair bit of the rest may be a reflection of underlying class voting patterns, given that the military draws a lot of working class people into it, which have tended to support Republicans in the recent past. Throw in the tendency of the military to recruit disproportionately from the south, which also tilts Republican and you can explain a bit more of the Republican advantage.

It may not have that much to do with military matters or veteran status, per se.

[drdtroit]

34. How absurd

Veterans backing a coward national guardsman over a decorated war hero.

Akin to a geneticist backing creationism.

[Tight_rope]

39. More lying polls....

:puke:

[RobinA]

46. If You Don't Believe

the poll, go to any military forum.

[oasis]

40. Minorities, elderly and the youth vote will offset the vet deficit.

[Surf Cowboy]

44. I'm just sick of it.

Hard to believe over 60% of our veterans are that stupid, but whaddya gonna do. If they were rocket scientists, they would have got deferments. They will let the repukes do whatever to them and still support the party. What a bunch of fucking dumbasses. I come from a military family by the way, all of whom are Dems--but then again, we have two lawyers and a professor in the bunch, so there you have it--just like in the civilian world, stupid people vote republican.

[Mountainman]

49. How could they get a random sample of vets?

For a poll of vets to be accurate they would have to have taken a random sample of all the vets. That's not possible unless they had the names and phone numbers of all veterans. I doubt that this is a statistically accurate poll.

[dad]

57. .

No shit. I am a vet. Clinton era, so having served under a Democratic administration, I didn't get to fight any wars. Certainly nobody contacted me.

[Corgigal]

50. You also must factor in

all those Veterans that work for the war complex businesses. They will vote Bush because it keeps them employed. Lots of active duty people get the training they need so they can hop over to some of these corporations for some real bucks. My daughter would for Honeywell and all those vets will support bush.

However my father in law and myself, both vets but not working for any war corporate interest are voting Kerry.

[dennis4868]

53. SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLIAN TO ME....

why a vet would vote for Bush?

He cuts their benefits and that is no joke, he lies to the troops to get a war with no plan for after the war and does not give the troops the proper body armor to fight....seriously, why would a vet vote for Bush?

[chromotone]

59. Hmmmm..."Stockholm Syndrome?"

In 1973, four Swedes held in a bank vault for six days during a robbery became attached to their captors, a phenomenon dubbed the Stockholm Syndrome. According to psychologists, the abused bond to their abusers as a means to endure violence.

But then, I'm no psychologist...

[struggle4progress]

55. As combat veterans see it (3 LTTEs)

I am a Vietnam veteran who hasn't voted since coming back from I AM A Vietnam veteran who hasn't voted since coming back from Vietnam (lost faith in our system and felt I could not make a difference). But what President Bush and the swift boat veterans have done makes me sick. Any Vietnam veteran knows that just being there -- just like in Iraq -- even walking down a street where there is no fighting you can get killed. Being on a swift boat makes the odds of getting killed even greater. I admire all who have served in combat and have nothing but shame for those who would question service in any way.

I have no purple hearts or silver stars, but I cannot tell you how many times I was almost killed. This year, this veteran is going to vote.
<snip>

HAS THE WHOLE nation gone mad? Bob Dole included? I'm a Vietnam veteran -- a helicopter pilot, for what little that's worth now. My opinion: as a soldier, it takes nearly as much courage to speak against a war as it does to fight it. Kerry is the proof -- he's still paying the price. Purple Heart, two or three medals, who cares? He served in war and many didn't. The contrast between Bush and Kerry is stark. One exercised his privilege, the other didn't. Hate Kerry if you must, but I think all this latent anger toward him is misplaced. Maybe Dole, as a former senatorial leader, could explain how we slide into misguided wars. Now, that would be courageous. <snip>

WHEN YOU SERVE in the uniform and you take a hit, you get a Purple Heart. When you serve with courage and valor, you receive a Bronze Star. When you serve with gallantry, you receive a Silver Star. Your direct commander makes those recommendations and they flow up the chain for final approval. Cut the carnage and talk about the issues.
<snip>

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2004/08/27/as_combat_veterans_see_it/

[PhuLoi]

61. What are the ratios of vets for * that were in the rear with the gear

versus those that actually saw combat? Back in the late 60's early 70's if you didn't head for Canada, couldn't get a slot in the Guard, weren't well connected or didn't have a relative on the local draft board then those who wanted to stay far from the fighting joined the Air Force, Navy or Coast Guard. It was a quality of life thing.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

63. No to Vets

I don't support vets. Just a bunch of old men talking younger people into the military. Let's face it the military has control of the USA. What a bunch of right wing assholes!

[w4rma]

65. Gender gap. This percentage is mostly gender gap. Are you ruling out all

MEN too, because only a minority of men support Democrats while a slightly larger minority of men support Republicans?