Churches See an Election Role and Spread the Word on Bush -NYT

[Rose Siding]

T. LOUIS, Aug. 8 - Susanne Jacobsmeyer, a member of the West County Assembly of God in a St. Louis suburb, voted for George W. Bush four years ago, but mostly out of loyalty as a Republican and not with much passion.

This year, Ms. Jacobsmeyer is a "team leader" in the Bush campaign's effort to turn out conservative Christian voters. "This year I am voting for him as a man of faith," she said over breakfast after an early morning service. "He has proven that he will do what is right, and he will look to God first."

Jan Klarich, her friend and another team leader, agreed. "Don't you feel it is a spiritual battle?" she asked to nods around the table.

The Bush campaign is seeking to rally conservative churches and their members across the country to help turn out sympathetic voters this fall, and West County Assembly of God, an evangelical congregation in a Republican district of a pivotal swing state, is on the front lines of the effort.

http://nytimes.com/2004/08/09/politics/campaign/09church.html?hp

[PassingFair]

1. Yuck ! n/t

[Rose Siding]

3. We're the "bad guys"

snip>
...said Kerry K. Messer, a Southern Baptist layperson and founder of the socially conservative Missouri Family Network....These are the bad guys, we are the good guys, why is it that we can't talks about this at our local church?''

Not too judgemental:grr:

[Cha]

10. Because you have it exactly bass ackwards you

ignorant ostrich.

[Kierkegaard]

2. WHAT?!?!?

Is this wretch on crack, or what?

[tlcandie]

6. Nope!!

This is what many do NOT get. To them it is a 'SPIRITUAL BATTLE' against good/evil, black/white. They will fight with everything in them to stand up against any person who opposes this man of God and self-purported special annointed right hand man of God.

There is nothing he can do that will stop them, NOTHING!!!! They are blinded by that and we will never change their minds because we are evil and foul and going to hell. They will never listen to us and might even go so far as to hold up a cross in front of us, plug their ears and speak, "I can't hear you," repeatedly until we go away.

They want no part of us or what we believe in or our caring for other human beings. We can not cross that gap unless we become one of them... period.. end of story.


EDIT: The only way I can see we could possibly ever, if even then, start working around this monumental gap is to stop all this intentional gapping about issues that separate! Then we start focusing on those things that bind us!!

[Rose Siding]

8. I have to believe that something will expose him.

too late maybe...

There are very many of us who are spiritual on the left. A number of Christian church leaders have stood against Bush policy.

There were always the flakey kristian kritters, but there are way less than Falwell thinks. They are scary, that's for sure.

We have to just keep telling the truth. (and taking heart from long rants from people who understand compassion that tell the whole story)

[tlcandie]

15. As I said the only thing I can think of would be to concentrate on

those things that unite us instead of dividing us and to be the ones who reach out without fear of rejection, humiliation...without fear period.

As long as spiritual people focus on differences it will never change. :/

[HawkerHurricane]

13. The difference between Liberals and Conservatives...

Liberals feel that if people knew the truth, they would be liberals. Therefore, people who are not liberals are uninformed, or ignorant, or perhaps stupid.

Conservatives feel that people already know the truth, and that any who oppose the truth (that is to say non-conservatives) are at best poor dupes; more likely though they are evil.

A liberal attempts to educate you, in a effort to make you more informaed and therefore liberal.
A conservative attempts to exorcise you, to make you not evil and therefore a conservative.

[tlcandie]

16. Great observation....

Personally, I would state that I would want to tell them the truth so that they are free from fear. The choice to be conservative, liberal or whatever is their choice to make as long as they can see all facts and then make up their minds.

Additonally, I don't necessarily like nice little words that put us into a box. Maybe that is part of the problem. I've really never called myself a liberal. I don't even really call myself a democrat. I just try to think of myself as being part of the living beings on this planet whose responsibility it is to pass out as much love and light as I can before I pass over into another life.

Again, I don't see anyone as ignorarnt, uninformed or stupid. I see them as people who have been blinded because they chose to see something good in someone and not the reality of the situation. It's not hard to do that. No one is perfect and we can all succumb to this.

HH, none of this is aimed AT you. It is just some insight into who I am versus the generalized observation.

:hi: :hug:

[thebaghwan]

23. Man, you forgot"minions of satan" also.

n/t

[havocmom]

4. Any church activity directly advocating a particular candidate or party

should be reported to the IRS and media. Tax exemption is valid only so long as churches DO NOT advocate for persons or parties. Same is true for any clergy acting/speaking in their professional capacity as a clergyman and advocating for any candidate/party.

Report it when you see it and force the churches to stay out of politics.

Freedom of relegion also demands freedom from religion. They cannot use any tax exempt resources to campaign or advocate for a candidate or party.

[Rose Siding]

5. The state of Missouri wouldn't even discount their postage...

because their mailings are too political.

[Classical_Liberal]

7. Where do you go to report them?

? Is there a hotline or something?

[calimary]

14. I'd start at their rectory office first, or maybe the diocese or whatever

the corresponding head querters-type local executive office for protestant churches is. Tell them your NEXT call will be to the IRS. Follow it up IN WRITING if you're so inclined. Put the fear of God into these mercenary manipulators, pardon the pun!

[Dem2theMax]

18. Here is the IRS link

Where Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.

(Link provides all the above information)

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

[markus]

28. But it's not churches, it's members

You can't stop that.

Hell, I've used Church Directories before in legislative campaigns, to get a letter out from some promiment members saying "Please support Joe/Jane from our church."

What pisses me off is when the credentialed clergy jumps in, as the Catholic church as with both feet in this election. The entire gay marriage amendment drive is pure GOP, GOTV, and North Dakota Catholic Church is all over it.

This really pisses me off, as I'm supposed to confirm my two chilren this year (aged 12 and 9). The bishop (who's too lazy to go to as many confirmations as his predecessor) has been arranging these huge cattle call confirmations, so my 9-year old is sucked into it.

I think my 12-year old is mature enough to understand why her father is leaving the church she is being confirmed into, but my nine-year-old son is going to be confused as hell.


Which pisses me off to no end.

But I'm going to have to tell them, "the church says you are old enough to be an adult in the church, so you're going to have to listen to me while I explain that many times the church is wrong. They are so wrong, in fact, that I'm leaving it. But now that you're confirmed, you have to make your own decisions about what is right and what is wrong about this church, or any other church."

I shouldn't have to be having this conversation with a nine-year-old, but I fell like the local bishop has pretty much forced my hand.

I'm going to give my 12-year old daughter the rosary my mother made for my father to take to WWII for her confirmation gift, and explain that he took it off to a war to eradicate from the earth people our bishop would clearly support.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

9. Why do they buy this BUllSHit???

"He has proven that he will do what is right, and he will look to God first."

Why???? Because the idiot SAYS SO????? Did Jesus not warn of false prophets??? He says he looks to God first, but his actions CERTAINLY DO NOT prove it. Jesus warned of people who basically 'wear their religion on their sleeve', too.

These people who buy Bush's garbage about looking to God for guidance are as rediculous as the idiots who believed David Koresh was God.

[salin]

11. as spoketh at a local politicized pulpit near you

and echoed on all those tv and radio shows that cloak themselves in religiousness and are also endorsed by the politicized pulpit.

Very strong confluence of indoctrination. End result is, sadly, not that surprising.

[Cha]

12. Don't forget the "Amish vote" that the repukes are

coveting. How's that for Orwellian..the peaceful Amish?

Boy, have they been sold a bill of rotten goods.

[goforit]

17. This is pathetic!!!....It is the typical Ashcroft jungleville/no surprise

[opihimoimoi]

19. The Fall of America begins with the embracing of DELUSION/Fantasy

He may or may not be a man of Faith but he has shown to be a DOLT UNFIT for this HIGH OFFICE

[Democat]

20. Bush is even dividing people in churches!

Religious people, families, Americans, that is who Bush is trying to turn against each other.

Kerry needs to hammer Bush relentlessly on the fact that he has divided America so much!

[The Zanti Regent]

21. Screw all churches. Tax them all!

If they want to play, they got to pay!

[yellowcanine]

25. Actually I think churches should pay property tax - and I am a church

member. Churches have the benefit of fire and police protection so why shouldn't they pay for it? Not only that but some large churches actually require extra transportation infrastructure to handle the traffic around their facilities - and it is not just Sunday morning - many of the megachurches have 7 day a week programs.

[progressivebydesign]

22. Yeah, lady, killing thousands of innocent children is what Jesus wants..

Are people TRULY that stupid and easily led? I'm still trying to figure out how these morans decided that Bush was a "man of God", there is NOTHING Godly about that asshole. He's sham, and they're just too deluded to see it. He's one of those fake christians in D.C. that attended the Bible bootcamp for republicans... he's a fraud.

[Khephra]

24. kick

[Walt Starr]

26. Time to kill tax exemption status for these churches

End of story.

[kwolf68]

27. Bla bla bla

For some reason, the media is reporting the fact these Fundie-Nuts are going to be active this year like it is something new. They have always been active, especially since the early 1990s when “Culture War” was declared. Robertson, Falwell and other right-wing Christian fascists have been pouring millions of dollars into the promotion and election of right-wing politicians. And what did it get them? Defeated in 1992 and 1996, and 2000. In the past 3 Presidential elections more people in this nation have voted Democrat than Repuke.

So they are going to get active this year? I say, GOOD. Get your extremist hair-brained mush brain asses out there. Declare Culture War…tell the world how “God” speaks through Bush…and then I can sit back and watch the returns roll in for John Kerry’s election on November 2nd.

[Joanne98]

29. I hate these bastards

the preachers around here are going all out. i'm in ohio and they're telling people dependant on their food banks to vote bush. which means voting themselves into deeper poverty. they have no shame. what a bunch of frauds.

[Corkey Mineola]

30. Goose-Stepping for Jesus

On behalf of the true followers of Jesus Christ (liberator of the downtroddend and oppressed and humble servant of humankind par excellent) I apologize for the faithlessness of these shit heads.

I, for one, intend to follow the Lord (and John Kerry) on November 2.

[young_at_heart]

31. To them, the "spiritual battle" is what it's all about

Never mind war, poverty, job loss, etc. He's a man of faith and that's all that matters. I'd like to know how they can be so certain that he actually has such a special relationship with the almighty.

[Joy Anne]

32. man of faith

Ha. He never goes to church unless his daddy makes him. That's the only time we ever see or hear about him in church. We used to see Clinton holding forth with reporters on the churchsteps every Sunday. Supposedly, Shrub couldn't find a satisfactory Methodist church anywhere near DC, especially not the one the Clintons joined.

[yardwork]

33. BushCo has given millions of dollars in grants to faith-based groups

Some of this is pay-back. The church leaders may tell their congregations that Bush* is a godly man, but in many ways this is just another example of how BushCo operates like organized crime. The godfather took care of you, now you get your people to vote for the godfather, got that?

What scares me is this - a lot of Americans are brainwashed into believing that God wants America to become a fundamentalist Christian nation. People have actually told me this. They think that all our problems are a sign from God that He is angry with us for allowing abortions, homosexuality, etc. Until the fundies wrestle control of American and "return" it to the Christian roots they are convinced our Founders had in mind, the bad stuff will keep happening.

How do we begin to argue with people who believe this crap? No amount of pointing out BushCo's errors or lies has any impact. They're going to vote for W because they think God is telling them to do it or else!

I'm losing friends over this. I've started pointing out that Jesus talked about love and forgiveness, not stem cell research. I've gone so far as to tell them that their blood-thirsty thoughts about nuking the middle east are unchristian.

Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

[moobu2]

34. Transformation from Secular to Religious Government

TheocracyWatch.org is a great site that documents and studies the religous-right-wings effects, motives and intentions on the U.S. and how sucessfull they've been in the last few years. this page is about "faith based initiatives" , but on the right of this page, you can navigate the site and read about other related subjects...very important site, check it out.


http://www.theocracywatch.org/faith_base.htm

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. "Beware the false prophets...

Matthew 7:15-16
"Beware the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves, you will know them by their fruits...”


The "fruits" of this misadministration include the destruction of the earth, the suppression of humanity, and the uplifting of the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

Ms. Jacobsmeyer, you really ought to rethink this.