Newborn twins found dead in toilet

[Mace]

EAST POINT, Georgia (AP) -- A woman who says she got up in the night to use the bathroom but instead gave birth to twins has been charged with murder after the newborns were found dead in the toilet, police said.

Alainer Warren, 25, was charged last week and jailed without bail.

"She told us initially that she did not know she was pregnant," Detective Robert Gray said.

Later, investigators learned "she saw the babies moving and alive," Gray said. "We're not talking about little embryos. These were small children."

He said the girls were born two months prematurely.

Warren told police that she got up early on June 29 to use the bathroom.

She said she gave birth instead and went to wake her boyfriend, Gregory Crawford, a 30-year-old construction worker.

Police said Crawford told them that by the time he went into the bathroom and lifted the lid to the toilet, the babies were not moving.

The boyfriend was not charged.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/07/07/bathroom.deaths.ap/index.html
--

How odd if she is not lying.

[bleedingheart]

1. having been pregnant I can't imagine how she wouldn't know

unless she was used to having hemorrhoids, swollen feet, having to pee every half hour and not getting a menstrual period for about 8 months...and that is to name just a few symptoms...

[testing123]

8. She probably thought that the kicking was

Indigestion.

[Djinn]

23. it's not all that rare

to find out one is preggars only when giving birth or just before. Some women keep having periods, some women didn't have really regular ones beforehand, some women (particularly women with very strong ab muscles) don't notice much of a change in body shape and may not even put on weight.

It happens to older women and those who've already had kids as well not just ill informed teens

[Pachamama]

28. It's very possible for women to not know they are pregnant....

...I'm not one of them, (hey, I suffered "hyperemesis" from week two which is basically morning sickness out of control, every 15 minutes and had me on IV home nursing care for 7 months) but I do know some women that didn't and its not uncommon for obese/overweight women or women with irregular periods to not know they are pregnant.

Also, most twins born are under 5 lbs each at full term....These babies were born pre-mature by over two months, which could have put them at under atleast 2 lbs each, maybe even less.

Every woman is different in the effects of hormones and pregnancy on their bodies and we don't know what her "physical circumstances" were.

[okoboji]

51. even if she didn't know

She was pregnant ... I would think she could tell the difference between a Bowel movement and giving birth.

Call me crazy, but is a 2 pound turd possible?

[Cats Against Frist]

2. I'm not making light of this situation

but I have a recurring dream where I have a second child (I do have one son, who will be three in August) and while my son is always OK in the dream, this other "ghost child" is either really small, or lost somewhere, or is in any number of precarious positions. Once, the dream found both children in the toilet, the "little ghost one" halfway down the hole, with my real son, ok -- his nose just above the water.

I'm super paranoid and suffer from severe anxiety disorder, and I think this "ghost child" is my nightmare about an accident happening to my real son, while my brain won't let me fully parse or think about something bad happening to my real son -- so it splits off into a second child, that I'm not as attached to.

The brain is an amazing thing.

And unless this woman has given birth to several children, previously, it would be awful hard to have two children come out of you and not know it...also, I've never heard of a case where a person was pregnant with twins and didn't know it. You'd think it would be like WWF in there -- I had one "little swimmer" and if I didn't think I was pregnant, I would have had to have thought an alien was going to jump out of my gut.

[bleedingheart]

3. isn't motherhood grand...?

I was never an anxious person until I had kids...now I am a worrier...but it is most likely some sort of genetic wiring to protect our young....

[frankly_fedup2]

11. I'm with you . . .

I started into a post-partum depression. Very severe but not psychotic. I did have to be hospitalized though. My son is 25 years old and through the years I had several more hospitalizations. My wiring went totally wacky from the experience of the birth alone (the docs say). They told me NEVER, EVER have a another child and I haven't.

I'm 45 now, still unfortunately have my menses (why, I haven't a clue), I am now on disability due to anxiety disorder, panic disorder, chronic depression, CFS, fibromyalgia, chronic epicondylitis, and CTS. The last ones are physical problems that occurred over the years.

Of course, I was 18 when I had my son and thought I knew everything. I did not have a clue and it changed my life. I was an open, fun, fearless person with no anxiety, and never heard of a thing called depression before my son was born. Of course, I do not blame him for anything (just in case some of you think I do). He did not ask to be brought into this world. He, also, did not ask to have a wacky mommy either.

The fact that he is married now and a father (I have a grandson now) who works hard for his wife and child and would give his life for them just goes to show you that a kid can have a wacky mother and still turn out okay.

[DianeG5385]

4. I hate these posts!!!!

I am as pro-choice as the next but the thought of this makes me sick and nauseous. Where was the help for this woman when she needed it!!!! Was she mentally ill? Afraid of her family??? Didn't have HEALTH INSURANCE or otherwise overwhelmed? Bush*s anti-abortion placation of the right has caused great heartbreak...those poor babies!!!

[bleedingheart]

5. of course the article hasn't got enough information

so I think she was either in a severe state of denial or she is mentally ill...but alas we will only get the sensational "Twins drown in toilet" instead of the real story...

[Chicago Democrat]

7. I hate these topics because they are PERSONAL and not NATIONAL NEWS

Its like Weekly World or Jerry Springer territory, not "Democratic Underground" MATERIAL.

[Judi Lynn]

14. I could NOT agree more.

Many of us don't come here to read about and comment upon every damned thing which happens.

It was my opinion for the first year or so that this board concerns news particular to Democratic interests, not simply a bunch of Democrats reading the ENTIRE DAMNED NEWSPAPER together.

Thank you. I agree, Chicago Democrat. You are absolutely right.

On edit:

What IS the point of posting this story? We've heard stories like this for ages. What DOES it have to do with Democrats?

This is stuff for the National Enquirer, or for gossiping about with your next door neighbor when you are OUT of important things to talk about.

[LeighAnn]

26. Why not? There's a lot of political issues at play

We're all Lefties, pretty much, but don't most of us have a "thing", an issue that drives us toward politics?

For a lot women of childbearing age, reproductive issues are often that very thing. It seems entirely topical to me. I guess there's room here for everyone.

[iverglas]

49. hey, me too

I'm fed to the teeth with people's opinions about things they know nothing about, and more particularly about *people* they know nothing about. Jerry Springer, precisely -- what always looks, from the outside, like a national pastime of finger-pointing and blame-laying, with the blame often ending up on the doorstep of victims.

I'm not saying that this woman is a victim of anything.

I'm saying I DON'T KNOW.

And neither does anyone else here. And I simply can't figure out why anyone would bother to have any opinion, let alone express it in public, let alone express a disparaging opinion about another human being, in a matter about which s/he knows nothing.

In all probability there are political issues here -- the woman may well have been a victim of spousal abuse, or poverty, or lack of education and information, or a developmental or emotional disability, or a lack of access to health care, or social isolation, or bad religion and its proponents. There very often is some explanation for the things people do, and without knowing what it is we just aren't in a position to blame anybody for it.

So to the extent that these stories do have political content, they'd be fit subjects for this discussion forum. But without that political content, yup, this is just fodder for either uninformed reactionary right-wing puritanism or uninformed silly bleeding-heart liberalism. The first doesn't belong here, despite how often it's seen, and the second is extremely ill-advised.

[RedEarth]

15. I agree...not LBN

[frankly_fedup2]

9. It's hard to imagine not knowing; however,

if she was a big girl, sometimes they have been known to give birth not knowing they were pregnant. We had one come into the ER with lower abdominal pains. She was a large woman and seemed to be in a lot of pain. She stated she had not missed any periods and told the radiologists that she was on birth control because they wanted to do an abdominal CT. Before that though, the ER doc did an internal exam and discovered she was in end-stage labor. She did not have a clue she was pregnant, per her.

I cannot imagine having two little babies and then shutting the lid of the toilet to get my boyfriend. I would have immediately gotten a towel and wrapped them up and then called 911. Plus, did the afterbirth come out on top of the babies? If not, it would still be inside her which meant she would have had to get help to get it out.

Just from her actions after the birth, she knew she was pregnant and either was afraid to tell her boyfriend or she was in total denial psychologically. Those babies could have had a good chance for survival if she would have reacted appropriately to the situation. I think she should have been charged because these were viable infants who, according to the charges, did breathe outside the womb.

[Momof1]

16. I had a friend a few years ago.

She was a big woman. Had her "normal" periods. (She only has like 4 a year)

She sat straight up in bed one night, and started screaming. She all ready had one child so she knew what the pain was.

She delivered a full term baby a few hours later. She had no idea she was pregnant. I saw her about 3-4 times a week, and I didn't know she was pregnant.

(A little side note...since she hadn't prepared to have a baby, and had no insurance, or wasn't signed up for any other programs the hospital released her within 48 hrs cause they didn't know if they were going to get paid)

[fortyfeetunder]

17. My sentiments exactly

Our stupid chimp and the pro-lifers have made if difficult if not impossible for women to feel as if they had reproductive choice. And the laws for foster parenting, and adoption are equally as pitiful.

Unless we know for sure the babies drowned, we can't say she is culpable of murdering them. Did it ever occur to any of you they could have died from prematurity/lack of pre-natal care?

Yeah, move this off LBN.

[testing123]

6. Two babies come out of you and you don't feel it?

Either she has passed watermelons before or she is lying and i would go with she is lying.

[Ilsa]

10. She wasn't feeling bad from being in labor?

The contractions didn't feel any worse than cramps with no period? Why wouldn't a 25 year old be concerned about her menstrual cycle missing for seven months (two months premature)? No UTI's? Unexplained weight gain? Feeling fetal movement in utero?

32 week gestation babies, even twins, are usually far emough along to make it with good medical care.

This woman needs to be evaluated for mental problems first.

[Pachamama]

45. Not necessarily....

I personally never had severe menstrual cramping, and with one of my labors (all natural, no drugs ever) couldn't feel cramping at all during contractions and instead had the sensation and urge to bear dowmn and have a bowel movement. Most people, including men, have experienced intestinal cramping and that in my experience and many other women's experiences is worse than uterine contractions, so yes, its possible she assumed it was that. Also, if she was obese or on the larger side, she might not have noticed and irregular periods are possible too where she didn't notice it being out of the usual.

We don't know the results of the autopsy yet..its possible for obese women to not feel fetal movement and its possible that these fetuses were delivered premature because of problems in their development making them not move much or why they died.

Mental problems? Who knows, but ignorance, poverty, drugs, poor health and lack of education and heathcare & insurance are more likely contibutors to this than mental health problems...

[Scairp]

12. She's either lying

Or the dumbest person ever to live. No way I will ever believe that a grown woman would be unaware of a single fetus pregnancy, let alone twins. Nope, she knew and just ignored the whole situation.

[TahitiNut]

13. "murder"?? Horseshit.

Negligent manslaughter is the only case I see so far. (IANAL) If that pseudo-preacher can kill a kid by suffocation and only be charged with max 5-year crime, then this ain't murder.

[Eileen]

19. Manslaughter OF ANY KIND is most likely a stretch.

I'm extrapolating here and giving some obvious possibilities to explain some of the apparent discrepancies.

First - if the woman was on a BC pill that was taken continually it is quite possible for an antibiotic to negate the BC effect and allow her to get pregnant. If her BC regimen was such that she only menstruated every six months (not uncommon today) then failure to start menstruation in the seventh month may not cause alarm.

There would be fetal movement usually but these are not infrequently missed by a first time pregnant woman - and especially if she was "on the large side".

We are not told who actually gave an estimate of fetal age but if it is also related to the detective interviewed then the guess may be far off reality. If somehow he could relate it to 28 weeks since her last period (which he divided to make seven months) she would have had at most 26 weeks gestation. 26 Week twins would be SGA (small for gestational age) when compared to a single fetus; they would not have had the benefit of corticosteroids before delivery to help rush lung development; and without immediate access to a level 3 neonatal facility they would have virtually no chance of surviving.

When the case is explored fully - and if she has appropriate legal representation - I suspect we will find that an overly zealous anti abortion DA (who claims to be pro-life although they didn't give a shit about life of the woman) saw an opportunity to further punish her and turned what actually was a dual miscarriage into an opportunity to make a political point.

- Eileen`s always in process page -


Eileen

[TahitiNut]

22. Yup. I buy that.

:thumbsup:

[FlaGranny]

46. I once had a miscarriage of a 4-month

pregnancy. The fetus looked just like a "baby." He had all his parts, but somehow he died in the womb and was miscarried several days later. He was actually delivered into the toilet because I thought I had to go to the bathroom. Fortunately (or unfortunately) he was already dead as evidenced by his macerated and discolored skin and lack of movement in the womb for about a week previously. If he had been born alive, there is the possibility he could have drowned before I would have been able to retrieve him. I was in total shock at delivering this fetus into the toilet (of all places). It was my first pregnancy. I was 18 and I had no idea what was happening at first. In any event, he probably weighed less than 1 pound and could not have survived even if he had been born alive. I still think about him and what could have been.

[Red State Rebel]

48. Sometimes grief goes on doesn't it....

What a sad thing to go thru.

[FlaGranny]

50. Indeed,

and more than 40 years later.

[knitter4democracy]

18. My husband had something similar happen in med school

When he was on his OB/Gyn rotation, he had a patient come in to the hospital in early labor, go to the bathroom and end up delivering while she was on the toilet. Of course, it was her seventh child, and she caught him, but still. It can happen for labor to progress rapidly, especially with her being so early.

Having gone through two natural labors, I can attest that you are in shock afterwards and have to be told what to do. I cannot understand what happened, but I have a hard time judging her.

[FredScuttle]

20. There is only one explanation for this tragedy...

I lay this at the feet of permissive liberalism...liberals killed those babies!

Thank you, now watch me finish this hoagie.

Newt Gingrich

[Swamp Rat]

21. This is tabloid news.

I pity this woman for the undeserved attention she's getting for a PRIVATE matter. Please repost at Freeperville.

[hightime]

24. 2 dead babies in a toilet is a PRIVATE matter? Not today pal.

OK, she is soooo dense that she doesn't realize 2 kids came out of her birth canal and not her ass.......but then she wipes and doesn't notice 2 struggling for life newborns in a toilet????? How deep was this shit pit???

Private matter my ass!! She killed 2 kids.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pachamama]

35. Private Matter is a stretch, but I don't believe that this is a LBN story

...worth posting until there is more info...The CNN blurb is too short on details and we don't know all the facts.

Also, I don't know if you are male or female, but if you are a male (or a woman who hasn't had children), you've never given birth and I have to inform you that when the baby drops down into the birth canal, the pressure has the same sensation as when you are having a bowel movement and the intense urge to push and its often hard to distinguish the sensation of wanting to have a bowel movement.

It's very possible that this woman was obese/overweight, had irregular periods and like (unfortunately) a lot of women in this country, doesn't know her body very well and really didn't know she was pregnant. If then, she went into labor, but didn't know it, and it was late at night and went to the bathroom, and she kept pushing what she thought was a bowel movement, how can you call her a murderer? Assuming she didn't know she was pregnant, there was no pre-meditation. And what if the lights were off? (I've gone to the bathroom in the dark at night many of times). Further more, twins are usually at full term only about 5 lbs, sometimes less, and these babies were born over two months early which puts them at best at between 1.5-2 lbs each.

[Swamp Rat]

37. Kinda makes you wonder as to the PURPOSE of this piece by CNN and the

motive behind posting it here at DU. In a minute, you gave more explanations as to why this "news" piece is inaccurate and uninformative.

This is propaganda.

[Pachamama]

38. It's a weak story...& even when there are more facts & details, its maybe

...more relevant in "General Discussion" rather than LBN...

But the reality is that Fundie Freepers lurk here on DU and love posting this stuff and arguing about it....

I should just ignore it, but its so obvious....

It's so telling too about what America is suffering from....people assume that the second they see something posted on CNN or Yahoo etc. that it's accurate and has all the facts....kinda like the people who bought yesterday's NY Post....

[Swamp Rat]

39. Ha ha! Yeah, the NY Post is a crappy tabloid too, owned by Murdoch.

That's why I think that some folks should do society a favor and get a lobotomy.

[hightime]

42. I'll take her at her own word..."she saw the babies moving and alive,"

[Pachamama]

44. We don't know she said that or in what context..until then, its hearsay

Un unamed investigator is quoted in a brief and incomplete blurb on CNN.com...We don't know if the "investigator" quoting her, her partner, etc... we don't know its timing or context as to when she saw them moving (ie seconds after an unplanned delivery of premature twins and seconds before calling 911)...

Get the facts straight and right now your making assumptions and judging...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hightime]

27. I come here for LBN....this was.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Nope. It is not LBN. This is exploitation.

LBN would be: Ken Lay indicted for fraud, or Bush sent to the Hague for war crimes. A sad story of one woman's plight is NOT LBN just because the article was printed today. Again, this is NOT news. It's the very type of exploitation that one reads at Free Republic and tabloid newspapers. It is low-class, crass, and unethical.

[Pachamama]

30. Maybe this was posted on CNN and is LBN, but the reality is that stories

....like this posted by Newbies is usually what it becomes, which is a whole discussion of pro-life, right to life etc.

I saw this story link...its short with very little detail. I'm willing to bet that an aggressive Fundie prosecutor made quick charges that will be dropped pretty quickly when its revealed she really didn't know she was pregnant and they will have a flimsy case, with negligent manslaughter at best.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hightime]

34. Fuck that, it happens too much. The rapid adaptation of Baby Moses laws

throughout the U.S. IS LBN and deserves our attention and efforts to spread the knowledge. Too many babies are killed when their is this alternative. Too many scared young women don't even know about the law and you are advocating burying our heads in the sand. How progressive is that??

[Swamp Rat]

36. Wrong. It's not LBN. It's exploitation.

Why are you so interested in this trashy "news?"

[Pachamama]

40. What does the Baby Moses Law have to do w/ this story or what I said?

...umm, excuse me, but where did I or anyone in this post advocate burying our heads in the sand on issues and where did the Baby Moses law come in here? And what relevance, assuming the woman didn't know she was pregnant? The Baby Moses law is relevant if a woman KNOWS she is pregnant and wants to give the baby away without risk of prosecution....the Baby Moses law is an important thing to let scared women who have unwanted late term pregnancies and don't know what to do, but this case doesn't apply if one assumes that this woman didn't know as she said. And last I checked, in this country I thought people are presumed innoncent until proven guilty?

You keep talking in your postings about this woman "killing"....you don't have any rights to judging her with so little information on this story....

[hightime]

41. "she saw the babies moving and alive," AND LEFT THEM TO DIE IN A TOILET!!

THAT is why I call her a killer. The Moses law has to do with AFTER the babies are born and the fact that the woman then has an option of leaving the children with a responsible person or agency. It is about taking responsibility AFTER the birth. This woman chose to let 2 children drown in a TOILET.

The fact that this is the second story of this kind, newborn left to die in a toilet, makes it an important story. Why is this happening and what can we do about it...not why should we be reading about it and how can we forget about it. To ignore these stories IS to stick your head.....in the sand.

[Pachamama]

43. Hearsay, and stop attacking me and others on DU personally

Hightime, for a Newbie, your not only not following the spirit of the forum, but your now attacking me and others personally.

If you review this "very skimpy" on info story, you'll see its lacking much info. So what, an unamed investigator says in an unofficial statement that she saw them moving....this until its officially released info is hearsay. Also, how does one not know that after not knowng she was pregnant, delivering unexpectedly into the toilet and then recognizing what happened, that she then ran to tell her partner and saw some slight movements. We don't know what happened...they may have called 911 immediately. We don't know yet from Autopsies that these fetuses were naturally aborted early because there was something wrong with them that they couldn't survive anyway. Also, any fetus born prematurely (especially a twin more than two months early) often couldn't survive without emergency level 1 neonatal care immediately upon delivery. Your assuming they "drowned"....your assuming that she left them for a long period and that she didn't call 911 immediately upon discovering what had happened.

My point is that it is too premature to jump to conclusions on this case; its negligible manslaughter at best, not homicide; and the Baby Moses law has nothing to do with this.

Believe me, I don't ignore things, I find out facts and I live my life as I preach, which is that I am an active supporter of Planned Parenthood and other organizations that provide important pre-natal and post-natal information for women's reproductive health.

How about you? What are you doing in your life to help provide women with reproductive info?

My head in the sand? Hardly....How many children have you birthed?

[Swamp Rat]

31. Thank you. You hit the nail on the head.

:-)

[Teaser]

47. Who cut the umbilical cords?

I'm sorry, but her story doesn't ring true to me.

If she did just drop two babies into a toilet, and if she realized, hard jail time. End of discussion.

[Kat45]

52. The woman has been charged with murder.

http://www.news4jax.com/news4georgia/3506121/detail.html

And the medical examiner's office said the twins were capable of living.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=48896

BTW, this topic also has a thread on freerepublic. (Gee, what a surprise! <end sarcasm>)

[Moderator]

53. Locking...

Normally, we're quite permissive about the discussion we allow in LBN. As long as it's topical - either politically relevant or important on a societal level. But this story is really just depraved and depressing.