Breaking News: Al Qaeda militants behead U.S. hostage Paul Johnson

[tandot]

BREAKING NEWS Al Arabiya TV: Al Qaeda militants behead U.S. hostage Paul Johnson. CNN working to confirm

www.cnn.com

no text yet...just breaking...

[molly]

1. JEEZ!!!

[Red State Rebel]

5. You just beat me on the post....what a shame.

But, as I said - at least he wasn't made to stand naked with a dog barking at him.

Some people consider that to be a much worse offense.

[stopthegop]

10. do you?

do you think it's worse to have a dog bark at a naked man than to cut the man's head off?...just asking...

[Red State Rebel]

19. I think these animals are going to do what they do regardless

of what we do.

I'm just frustrated that some people like to act like what happened at Abu Graib is so horrible when the people we are at war with do 10 times worse.

I tend to place the blame where it lies - on the terrorists.

[DenverDem]

25. Yes, the terrorists in the PNAC.

I agree.

[Commendatori]

So do I.

I'm speechless. My boss just came in and told us all to go home.

[ZR2]

107. Why

did you get sent home ?

[Commendatori]

118. Everyone in the office

is in shock over Johnson, and it's Friday. The boss said he clearly wasn't going to get work out of us anyway, so he sent all of us home except for one who has to be here until 5:00 to answer the phone is anyone calls. I'm the only single person in the office, so I volunteered.

[treepig]

198. wow, if you and your co-workers had has as much empathy

for the 500,000 iraqi kids clinton killed, your company would have been completely kaput during the 90's!

[Citizen Daryl]

246. You work for Lockheed?

[Skittles]

30. stop COMPARING TORTURE

it is ALL F***ING DISGUSTING and WHY THE F*** ARE WE IN IRAQ, ANYWAY ???????????????????????????

[Carl Brennan]

45. We are not at war with anybody.

[SKKY]

214. Maybe not Carl...

...but there are a butt-ton of Islamic extremists who think they're at war with us. Just because we don't look doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Carl Brennan]

225. Well why don't we declare war?

If there are a "butt-ton" of them it should be easy enough to get Congress to declare war.

This whole terror war is BS.

[goforit]

249. Absolute BS!!!!.......You're damn right.

And they think they're better than Hollywood.

[Carl Brennan]

265. The part about declaring war is not because I personally

feel that we should declare war. If I was a politician I would vote against a declaration of war. But what requiring a declaration of war would do is force the issue onto the Floor for discussion, analysis, etc. BEFORE the war starts. This would stop Presidential wars and expose bullshit enemies like Al Qaeda.

[leesa]

52. The terrorists are in the White House. How do you know who did this?

You don't even know who did it. You were TOLD by our lying government and our lying media that so-and-so did it and you swallow it without question. WHO benefits from this? The right wingers??? Isn't this what Bush needs to save his ass? THINK!

[goforit]

251. "Right wingers???" Yep...Preaching to the chior!!!

[hlthe2b]

60. So, you believe in propagating a cycle of retribution?

Soon Americans will not be safe to travel ANYWHERE (ignoring for the moment any relative change in our domestic safety).

Is Abu Graib totally defensible in your book, just because there are others out there cruel enough to commit such horror?

While use of dogs and nudity to abuse or torture clearly does not equate to a beheading, there has already been evidence that we have killed in the name of interrogation. So, is our beating someone to death defensible?

Frankly the need to equate horror for horror misses the point, IMO. The fact is that our actions and policies (especially those which so overtly contrast with our supposed honorable intent)have consequences. I think it is time to systematically and dispassionately look at those consequences.

[robbob]

127. Good point

I've lost count. We've killed (tortured to death?) how many Iraqi prisoners now? 45? 65? That is somewhere in the range of suspicious deaths while in our custody. And yet people still make excuses for our conduct; "Oh well, having a dog bark at you isn't as bad as having your head cut off". People have died in our custody. Women and children have been raped. Men have been sodomized with various impliments.

The outrage isn't just about "barking dogs". Get a clue (not you, hlthe2b, the poster above).

[BlueEyedSon]

62. Gee, I don't remember any beheadings before the War.

[treepig]

67. apparently you're not familiar with the saudi "justice" system

:freak:

[DenverDem]

73. Yes, beheading is much worse than electrocution.

It's all state sponsored murder.

[Roaming]

142. I've read that some doctors believe a beheading victim may

remain conscious for up to seven seconds ... It most certainly is a horrible way to die.

[DenverDem]

148. And electrocution is not a horrible way to die?

It is amazing what we humans can justify.

[Roaming]

193. What does electrocution have to do with Paul Johnson?

Did they torture him too?

[Just Me]

207. DEATH SENTENCE.

And many innocents have died by our DEATH SENTENCE.

Our DEATH SENTENCE has failed to prove to be

- an effective prevention measure

- an effective psychological relief for the victim

- an effective psychological relief for the victim's family/friends

- a proven punitive measure (since death may very well be better than living in a cell for the rest of one's natural life).

[DenverDem]

211. Thank you.

This sub thread was comparing Saudi justice with American justice. Hence the reason for the electrocution discussion as related to Saudi capital punishment.

[Roaming]

217. You call what happened to this man JUSTICE? Did he have a

trial? What was he accused of? The comparison is ridiculous, IMHO.

[BlueEyedSon]

77. I mean of Americans by "terrorists" in the middle east.

ya big dummy!

[treepig]

84. so that's worse than the state-sponsored beheading

uk citizens for adultery?

oh well, to each his own.

[BlueEyedSon]

120. I'm sorry, what crime did Paul Johnson commit?

[treepig]

164. you become part of the usa's war machine

you become a target

i suppose whether or not the brutal military enforcement of a our god-given oil rights is a crime or not is open to debate.

to me, it's just a tad worse than executing people over their sexual behavior. but then, that's just me.

[ACLYouth]

188. Woah woah woah, hold on a second.

Because a man works for Lockheed Martin as a tech for Apache helicopter optics means he is a legitimate target? Allowing our helicopter pilots to better protect our troops is by no means "brutal". The only brutes here are the executioners, whoever they are.

You have some serious issues, buddy.

No one deserves to be murdered.

Ever.

[treepig]

197. did i say he deserved to be murdered?

can't remember doing that.

in any event, you don't seem to think so. but if you had had your family slaughtered by an apache attack helicopter while they slept, or during a wedding celebration - maybe, just maybe, you'd feel differently.

[ACLYouth]

232. No

I wouldn't. And do you want to know why?

Because I have the brains to separate pilot from mechanic.

[Supply Side Jesus]

236. no mechanic=no operating vehicle

in a "war" you just don't go after soldiers, you go after their support services. I hope you have the brains to see how war is waged.

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nedley]

240. Yup

Just add another to the * body count

[Dardi]

266. You become part of the war machine

The minute the first tax dollar is taken out of your paycheck. After that it's just a matter of degree.

[Carolina]

172. exactly, there's a place in Riyadh

called chop-chop square because of all the beheadings. This IS Saudi justice and despite the coziness of the Bushes with the Saudi royals, the situation is out of control. It's them versus us (remember W's famous words, well that's a 2-way street), it's the world against the U.S., it's Arab/Muslim against Americans of all religious persuasions. It's you reap what you sow and all's fair in love and war.

I am really sorry for Mr. Johnson's family; if only the West Wingnuts were actually over there facing the horror(s) of their actions. But that ain't gonna happen so surrogates pay the price, ultimate and otherwise. Therefore ANY AMERICAN is fair game.

[Justice]

71. Sadly, That Is Necessary to Say

because it is true.

[StopThief]

100. Do you remember Daniel Pearl?

Just asking.

[demon67]

128. Actually

the journalist, Richard Pearle, was beheaded before the war in Iraq. Also, it is pretty clear that horrific terrorism against the United States and its citizens by Islamic extremists is not a new phenomenon.

[BlueEyedSon]

156. Horrific? Be more specific.

Then compare it to US state-sponsored terrorism.

[markses]

168. The journalist who was killed in Pakistan was named

Daniel Pearl. Not "Richard Pearle", O Mighty Corrector. You are correct that these Islamic extremists have long practiced asymmetrical warfare against the West and the United States in particular. And vice versa.

http://www.danielpearl.org/

Richard Perle, by the way, is one of the murderers who engineered the brutal deaths of thousands of Iraqis.

[smirkymonkey]

200. It was wishful thinking...

If only.

[CBHagman]

169. Correction, please.

You're referring to Daniel Pearl, who was kidnapped and murdered in Pakistan, if I recall correctly. A horrific, tragic day.

He must not be confused with Richard Perle, though. Please don't go there.

[demon67]

186. Thank you for the correction.

My bad.

[markses]

203. What's funny is that

You were all haughty correcting somebody else, and you're the one who got it wrong!

[Mnemosyne]

231. Nazi Germany, many sent to guillotine

[hackwriter]

75. So where does it stop?

Terrorists behead the Americans they kidnap.

We retaliate with more atrocities.

They retaliate with more kidnappings and murders

We retaliate with more atrocities.

Doesn't it seem that at some point, SOMEONE ought to start behaving in a civilized manner? Isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

[StopThief]

101. Just so I'm clear here. . . .

when exactly did we RETALIATE with more atrocities?

[Just Me]

119. You forgot your <sarcasm> thingy. Oops!!!! *eom*

[Career Prole]

163. Right off the top of my head I'd have to say Fallujah

when we killed hundreds of innocent civilians over four mercenaries...
...or go even farther back when we invaded and kiled tens of thousands of innocent civilians over three thousand civilians. That shit's all apples and oranges though, since al Qaeda and Iraq aren't the same entity.
Which begs the question, just what the f**k are we doing in Iraq anyway? Oh yeah, fighting the terrorists...but wait! Now they're in Saudi Arabia! No...Madrid! No...Afghanistan! No...they're in America!
Fuggit! Just bomb the whole world! That'll teach the bastards who hate us for our freedoms!
War on Terra...what a bunch of morons it took to dream that one up.
To say nothing of the morons who think our fearless leader's brilliant for waging it.

[NickB79]

185. Um, Fallujah was a pretty damn big retaliation

They killed 4 US "contractors", we killed 700+ civilians. I'd call that a pretty big retaliation, and I'd say 700 dead civilians is a pretty big atrocity.

[Carolina]

174. apparently not

look at Israel and what was once know as Palestine. Vicious, never-ending cycle.

[ACLYouth]

189. It dosen't stop.

Just look at Israel.

[SKKY]

219. It all stops...

...when we pull our resources together, hire the absolute best engineers, and find something else to power the internal combustion engine. Forget about planes, heating fuels, etc. We get 50% of the cars in this country running on something other than gas/oil, then and only then will we be able to effect change. That's why we need Kerry so very badly. That will never, ever happen with Bush. He can't see the forest from the trees.

[MajorFlaw]

229. I'm afraid you are correct. As long as we must engage in that

part of the world because we need oil, we will never see the end of trouble. Once we are able to provide our own energy, these people will be free to settle their religious and cultural issues on camel back in the middle of the desert.

[Wink]

90. What?

Terrorists aren't signatories to the Geneva Convention. They are not bound by the same laws we (supposedly) are. In our country the accused has rights. So this silly argument about how we abuse our prisoners less has no bearing on how we should be conducting ourselves as a country. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be arrested for human rights violations. Just as the terrorists should be arrested for murder.

[arcane1]

91. the people we are at war with are in Iraq

and are not the people who just killed this man. He was killed by Saudis, our REAL ENEMY

learn to distinguish. The victims in Abu Ghraib were 70-90% Iraqi civilians innocent of any crime, much less being terrorists...

[Cheswick2.0]

92. what war

when did congress declare war?

[Tomee450]

115. I don't

think there were any beheadings of Americans before we entered Iraq. I think this horrific act may be the result of the abuse at Abu Ghraib and other prisons. Iraqi and Afghani have died while in the custody of the United States. When we mistreat Arab and Muslim prisoners, those who capture Americans are likely to do mete out the same kind of treatment.

I feel great sympathy for his family. I don't understand why anyone would take a job in Iraq or Saudi Arabia at this time. Americans are hated in that part of the world. Still, the other day in Houston, people were lining up to become employees of Haliburton working in Iraq.

[kayell]

137. Can you conceive of the idea that both are horrible?

Abu Ghraib does not excuse what was done to this poor man, AND the fate of these Americans does not excuse what was done at Abu Graib.

Blame the terrorists for what they did all you want. They have earned the blame. But don't use it to excuse what was done at Abu Ghraib, to people who may not have had anything to do with terror.

One thing to consider though, is that we do have some responsibility for what is done by our own country. Are we going to base our actions solely on not being quite as bad as the worst that humanity has to offer?

[Roaming]

140. Agreed; this is horrible.

[jukes]

145. EXACTLY

SaidFred. that doesn't excuse for a minute our military becoming barbarians.

and you say animals, like it's a bad thing. we're ALL animals; i eat, breathe, defecate, urinate and fornicate, so do my cats (Xept the "f" word). i don't mean to insult you or call you out, but the term sounds racist in your posts. i find it offensive. others probably do to.

[TryingToWarnYou]

178. Thats fine...

I blame the terrorists too. I blame the ones terrorizing and torturing the detainees. The chickens always come home to roost and this is just par for the course we have established for ourselves in Iraq with the treatment of those people.

Torture, terror and appropriate behavior are not the sole hallmarks of terrorists, but also of those pretending to be there helping the Iraqis.

Just because some 'terrarists' do something worse doesnt mean we have to keep being fuckheads. Its not a goddamn competition to see which culture can be the most despicable.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

179. Abu Graib was horrible

Americans are supposed to be a shining example for the world so the fact that what "they" do is 10 or 20 or 30 times worse is not a justification for Abu Graib.

Also we might keep in mind the distinction between the War on Terror and the War in Iraq.

[movonne]

144. To some people it might be...

[gp]

21. Or do you mean the rapes, the beating of prisoners to death,...?

These dispicable actions shouldnt be compared anyway.
The outrage at 'making a man stand naked with a dog barking at him'
isnt less justified because of this...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

50. I keep a list,...and check it thrice :^) n/t

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Red State Rebel]

76. First, I am a female, Second, just because I differ in my opinion

doesn't mean I'm a trouble maker.

I am more pro military because I have family over there and more going in the fall. There have been so many negative military threads I finally had my fill and started fighting back.

Plenty of people in DU have family in military - do you know how much it hurts to hear people on here say the things they have? My nephew works in a medical facility over there and writes letters of all the wonderful things they are doing - including helping the Iraqi people.

My brother-in-law flys C130's in with supplies for our soldiers and for Iraqi's. Medicine, medical equipment, all kinds of things.

Then I come in hear and read that what is going on over there is horrible and the soldiers at Abu Graib have made people curse all the military over there. It is not fair. If you disagree with the purpose of the military, that is one thing, to expand that anger to include the many wonderful men and women serving over there is wrong.

I've never been one to just go along with the crowd like a lemming. I thought this was a place for the free exchange of ideas. Not a cult where I must swear my allegiance to every popular opinion. I have always been a more moderate Democrat and that makes it difficult in here sometimes. More often than not, I just hold my posts and ignore it when I disagree with people. When it comes to defending my relatives in Iraq, I just got tired of it.

[Demonaut]

95. good for you, debate and argument are healthy

kowtowing is not. We may not agree with everyone here but we can debate the issues sensibly, I argued that Reagan was not as bad as many here portrayed but Skittles amd many others here gave instances and policies, links and quotes which made me reconsider his legacy.

[StopThief]

104. Well said.

And thank you and your family for their service to the nation.

[ElectroPrincess]

124. The vast majority of us here respect the military ...

Please do not assume when one or two folks make a negative remark, that it applies to all of DU. That's freeperland tactics. There are many military veterans who are members here - proud of our service and honor the men and women serving today.

You're blowing one or two harsh reactions out of proportion. The vast majority of folks here empathize with the military, of prior service and/or have friends or loved one's on Active Duty.

Again, please hesitate giving attention to folks who are the outliers and generalizing to DU. There are as many patriotic members here as anywhere else.

We just don't have the corporate media on our side. :-)

[papau]

146. Well said - and Amen :-)

:-)

[Dhalgren]

125. You are right in that your opinion is to be respected.

It doesn't make any difference whether you have family in Iraq or not, our invasion and subsequent oppression of the Iraqis are wrong, period. I'm sure that in every criminal, military venture in history, there were individual soldiers who were good persons and did some good. But that does not negate the murder, rape, and brutality that the organization as a whole perpetrates. It is regretable that "good" soldiers get tarred with the same brush as the "bad" ones, but when the military is murdering civilians, that is to be exspected.

[saigon68]

There are a lot of thugs, liars and hoodlums in the military

Some people can't take that being pointed out to them.

There are currently 7,000 or so military members serving sentences for murder, rape robbery etc.

I agree with your supporting the military I disagree with people who feel that somehow the average military person is some how morally better just because they are serving war criminals like the Chimpanzee and Cheney

[ElectroPrincess]

141. Agreed!

In my four year active duty service in the Army, I've met all kinds of folks. I think some folks who have family but have NOT served on active duty may tend to idolize the military.

Don't get me wrong. If it wasn't for the veterans' educational benefit from my active duty service, I could not have attended and graduated with my Masters. I love the military, however, I'm also able to see it's faults in a more objective member than those on the outside looking in. And yes, especially those of us who have friends and family in Iraq, want to hear good reports about our military.

BTW At this time I have two close friends (USMC) serving in the Sunni Triangle of Iraq. My cousin just returned a few months ago. I see the threads and/or negative comments. If anything, I only encourage people not to generalize without proof.

I don't think anyone would argue that one or two of the troops accused of torture are not the kind of people you'd like to hang out with, i.e., not empathetic and upstanding - NOT "good people."

[saigon68]

153. Good Point EP my only Nephew is the the 3rd ID

He is getting ready to go back next year. I want him the hell out of there.

The troops are by and large good people being used for a number of immoral purposes---

by a coterie of Chicken Hawk (not serving, never served, cowardly) War Criminals. Like the chimp cheney, wolfie perle et al

[Just Me]

160. You two represent the honor/courage/loyalty faction of the military.

And I am certainly proud of that,...I acknowledge and support THAT!!!

[ACLYouth]

191. Uh...

7,000 out of an armed service of hundreds of thousands. I would say that's a pretty normal ratio of psychos to normal people.

Calm down.

[saigon68]

243. I'm not going to CALM DOWN

That's a lot of Psychos running around with M-60's and M-16 A4s

If Saddam had done this to USA POWs the DEATH PENALTY would be in play

But Pray tell, How could Saddam top this ???

When the POW had a PLASTIC FLASHLIGHT RAMMED UP HIS RECTUM ???

When a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG BIT HIM IN THE TESTICLES ???

When the POW had a 220 Volt wire attached with a clip to the TIP OF HIS PENIS ???

When Lynndie England was encouraged to help the POWs obtain erections so they could performORAL SEX ACTS ON EACH OTHER and the PERKY PRINCESS OF ABU GHRAIB PRISON COULD SHOUT "HE'S GETTING HARD"???

When a POW was beaten to death, HIS BODY PACKED IN ICE and TAKEN OUT IN THEDESERT AND DUMPED Or the Photos of Graner and Lynndie’s sidekick the Lovely Sabrina Harman smiling over the dead corpse.

When Lynndie apparently on Orders collected a number of Dirty Used KOTEX MAXI-PADS to be worn and tied to the Heads of POWs, Or when Graner made POW??s eat food thrown in Toilets and then commented that the Prison Guard part of him said he loved to see them “PISS THEMSELVES”

When Four U.S. soldiers from the 3rd Brigade Combat Team will be reprimanded for forcing two Iraqi detainees to jump off a bridge into the Tigris River killing one of them.

How about interrogators torturing children and the presenting them to the parents to get them to reveal WHATEVER?

When soldiers themselves admit dogs were used and when Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, recalled for Army investigators an episode "when two dogs were brought into 1A to scare an inmate. He was naked against the wall, when they let the dogs corner him. They pulled them backenough, and the prisoner ran . . . straight across the floor. . . . The prisoner was cornered and the dog bit his leg. A couple seconds later, he started to move again, and the dog bit his other leg."







When photos show a Naked man covered in Feces beaten in the head by a THUG holding a police Baton?



When a Civilian Interrogator ANALLY RAPED A 15 YEAR OLD BOY IN FRONT OF GI
WITNESSES ( who apparently used a camcorder to memorialize the child’s screams as his ANUS was savagely attacked) and the RAPIST is going to get a free pass because he was under NO ONES JURISDICTION ???

I'm not going to Calm Down

[ACLYouth]

248. Lovely speech.

But you absolutely missed my point. You said SERVING SENTENCES. That means that they are NOT running around with M-60's and, actually, M-4 Carbines.

You act like I said anything in my post admonishing Abu-Ghraib.

So.

Once again.

Calm down.

Think thoughts completely and logically like a reasonable human being.

[tandot]

173. Most of the DUers respect the soldiers serving over there

What we disagree on is WHY they are in Iraq in the first place. There was ZERO reason to invade Iraq. Those soldiers should be at home, with their families.

This is none of their fault. They are doing their duty and I don't doubt that they are trying their best to improve the lives of Iraqis (while trying to stay alive). And I think of them every day, hoping they make it back to their families in good health.

[SKKY]

223. Thanks SaidFred...

We have such short memories in this country. People forget that the vast majority of the military is involved in things like rebuilding in the Dominican Republic, continuing the clean up from the Prestige in Spain, helping rebuild Afghanistan. We've always done way, way more humanitarian missions than combat. But then again, if you've never served, you wouldn't know that because the media never talks about it. We're not all killers and rapists like some in the forum tend to believe. Some of us are pretty good people. We should start our own website. www.moderatedemocratunderground.com. Has a nice ring, huh? ;)

[Puglover]

259. Actually Scottknapper

I agree with you totally. Please do start your own website....I think that's a wonderful idea.

[Mnemosyne]

235. Thanks to your family and all that must be there, pray

for them and worry about health with depleted uranium, could effect so many generations. very sad.

[saigon68]

105. ACTUALLY THE DOG ENDED UP BITING HIS SCROTUM

aah the famous DOGGY picture

[DenverDem]

22. Right, this justifies American torture.

At least we didn't cut anybody's head off, right?

Tell that to the thousands of civilians who had hands, arms, legs and heads blown off as a result of "collateral damage".

[StopThief]

106. Mens Rea

nfm

[DenverDem]

122. And how is invading a country any less criminal intent?

War crimes are still crimes.

[Bandit]

27. I suspect the two are related

I guess you really want to go get them now. Show them what Amerika can really do. They want to talk atrocity then we will really show them. In true American style. Should we kill every single Arab? Is that the "final solution"?

[bagnana]

40. What are you talking about

That is an incredibly stupid statement. No one thinks being made to stand naked with dogs barking at you is worse than being beheaded. But when you have to start justifying yourself by saying "at least we don't behead people" what the fuck is the point? Why are we there? So that we can be the heroes who just beat and humiliate our prisoners (70-90% of whom were guilty of NOTHING), and do not behead people?I would expect that statement on Free Republic. Not here.

[funky_bug]

I wonder

How you made it to 900+ posts with comments like that.

Tell ya what... let's ask Johnson's son, who has been pleading for his dad's life for the last 72hrs if he'd rather his dad be beheaded, or stripped naked in front of Cujo for a photo op.

Your comments disgust me.

[impe]

110. Ummmm

it seems to me that would be an easy answer. I don't get your gist...

[funky_bug]

58. dup n/t

[leftynyc]

59. Name one - any link would do.

n/t

[frylock]

93. you think all those dogs were doing was barking?!!

ever been attacked by a trained dog? I haven't, but I imagine the reason that guy has his dick clamped between his legs is for fear of losing it to that BARKING dog.



Here's a fellow suffering from multiple dog barks.

[NickB79]

183. Dead is dead, by the US or Al Queda

They beheaded their hostage. We beat ours to death in Abu Ghraib. What's the difference? Honestly, I think the beheading would be a more humane way to die than being beaten to death, if I absolutely had to make a choice.

If you think all that took place at Abu Ghraib was dogs barking and prisoners walking naked, you are sadly mistaken. Last I read, there was still an ongoing investigation into at least 30 suspicious deaths of prisoners under US custody in Iraq, and a few more in Afghanistan. In comparison, Al Queda has beheaded what, 2 Americans?

[Astarho]

242. Yes, beheading is much worse then being ripped apart by dogs

/sarcasm

:eyes:

[Vladimir]

262. 30,000 dead Iraqis is what's worse

[Skittles]

2. another victim of the BFEE

my sympathy to his family and friends.

[berner59]

4. that poor family...

This wouldn't have happened if we didn't go through this bogus war!!! Disgusting...

[Proud2BAmurkin]

8. Yup. Lived in Saudi Arabia happily for years before Bush

nt

[Justice]

13. How Much Press Will That Get?

All you will hear is see it is us versus them. You won't hear that this man lived in SA freely for 10 years, loved it etc etc -- and b/c of Bush* he was no longer safe.

[Just Me]

68. I want to know why it is being reported OUT OF IRAQ. n/t

[Zhade]

132. You know why.

And you know "who", too.

Same M.O. as the Berg killing.

Think about it. *wink*

[Just Me]

154. I just want others to,..."think". n/t

[hightime]

14. Maintaining U.S.-built Apache helicopter gunships for a Lockheed Martin Co

Johnson, 49, a Lockheed Martin Corp. employee, was kidnapped Saturday in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. He helps maintain U.S.-built Apache helicopter gunships for the Saudi military.

[tandot]

33. I agree, without the war in Iraq, he still would be alive

I think he worked over there for 12 years.

[Mike Daniels]

29. Last I heard people still have free will

The murderers didn't have to chop off this guy's head much less kill him at all.

How many people did the Iranians kill during the Iran hostage crisis?

[candy]

199. And how many were killed on 9-11?

Death to anyone is nasty business and we haven't seen the last of it,I'm afraid.

[Pachamama]

244. Well, Bush had free will not to invade Iraq, Paul Johnson had free will ..

...to leave Saudi Arabia when the gov't of the US and Saudi Arabia warned all Americans to leave..

I'm not justifying any of this, but I think if your going to talk about "Free will" be across the board...

The world is in a cycle of violence and "an eye for an eye" won't solve anything...

[Fenris]

3. Oh Jesus Christ.

:cry:

Poor man.

[rfranklin]

6. George Bush hit the trifecta....again!

What a lucky ducky!

[lancdem]

20. The Nick Berg beheading didn't help him

neither will this.

I pray for his family.

[DenverDem]

70. It depends on how well the video was produced.

The Berg vid was an obvious psyops plant.

[Walt Starr]

7. Another body added to Bush's count

It's directly Bush's fault.

[Beetwasher]

9. Another Beheading Courtesy of Bushco.

Feel safer yet?

[Just Me]

11. Why are reports being issued out of Bagdad when he was captured

,...in Saudi Arabia?

:wtf:

<on edit - no videotape this time?>

[ACLYouth]

194. Because

Because at the moment we have markedly more reporters in Baghdad than in Riyadh, although reports are coming from there, too.

[mountainvue]

12. Oh God.

Please make it stop.:cry:

[bluedog]

15. more BLOOD on bushs' hands

that god damn son of a bitch.he causes death all over..this man lived there for years until this bastard came into office and threw the world into total chaos

[Mike Daniels]

35. Please

You know, I'm against this war but nothing forced the kidnappers to kill the hostage.

The Iranians seemed to manage to avoid deliberating killing any of the embassy hostages during Carter's term.

The kidnappers are directly responsible for the death of this man, not Bush.

(Edited for spelling)

[leftynyc]

65. I agree

The fault lies with the kidnappers. If they didn't have Abu Ghraib as an excuse, they'd find another.

[Bandit]

99. Evidently they don't want Americans over there taking their oil

What do you suggest we do about this? Kill us a bunch of "ragheads". We'll show them how to really commit an atrocity, right????

[pnb]

143. So that excuses beheading this man then?!?

By that logic, YOU evidently think that it's OK to "kill us a bunch of ragheads."

[otohara]

16. RIP - Condolences To Family

[indigobusiness]

17. More "collateral damage"

RIP

[Lefta Dissenter]

18. I actually had had a glimmer of hope

after seeing his wife's appeal and the fact that their Muslim friend had written an appeal, as well.

DAMN, this just breaks my heart. What unimaginable sadness and grief that family must be feeling.

I am so, SO sorry about this.

Does anyone know if there's a contact for the family - someplace to send a letter of sympathy?

[hadrons]

23. from Yahoo.com ....

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda militants beheaded an American engineer they had held hostage since last week, Al Arabiya television reported Friday.

The network was quoting its correspondent in Saudi Arabia and gave no further details. Al Qaeda had given the Saudi government a Friday deadline to free jailed militants or it would kill Paul Johnson.

[givemebackmycountry]

53. Now what happens?

What are we to do?

It's as if the world has been besieged by poisonous vipers who hide in the dark and strike at their convenience.
Now what happens?

These are W's homeboys over there.
He's cashed their checks.
He's had them down at the ranch for sleep-overs.
He's coddled them and kissed their ass and ignored the fact that 19 of them killed 3000 Americans.

If it wasn't for the oil, we would be treating them like the Sudan.

This poor man and his widow.
I feel so bad for them.
I saw her this morning (in Islamic headdress) pleading for his life.
And they did him anyway.

Look, we can't kill them all.
They ain't going to sit down and negotiate.
They want what they want and they will kill innocent people to try and force the issues.

They want us all dead.
They want every Israeli dead.
They want it all.

What do we do?
Does Kerry have the answers?
We know that the un-elected fraud doesn't.
What do we do?

[rumguy]

208. AQ are savage animalistic cowards

It takes some real tough guys to tie a man up and cut off his head. Yeah you go guys!!! I'm sure your god is doing handstands and summersaults over the beheading of a tied up man!

AQ deserves to be mocked, ridiculed, more than feared. They are cowards. Pathetic..

[calimary]

24. Yeah, george. Your "war on terr" sure HAS made us all safer.

Certainly worked out well for THIS poor soul.

Dear God. Happy Father's Day. I remember hearing his son pleading for his dad's release for Father's Day.

DAMN! Not the kind of "release" his son had in mind. Keep his family in mind and in prayers this weekend, folks.

[vivalarev]

31. pictures?

cnn said there were pictures on the internet...did anyone find them?

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

26. It will get a lot worse

Before it ever gets any better and that's the optimistic view. Since Bu$h is just determined to keep pouring gasoline on the world's hatred of us.

[Justice]

28. It is sick

These two posts are next to each other on LBN. I am sick to look at them:


Breaking News: Al Qaeda militants behead U.S. hostage Paul Johnson"


Americans more upbeat about Iraq, poll shows

[Auntie Bush]

32. Now George can make another notch in his gun.

Good for you George...responsible for another grisly death.

All America thanks you for making us safer. We should all send him a thank you note.

How can he look all our soldiers in the eye?
Does this man who is directly responsible for cold blooded killings feel remorse? How can that man sleep at night? No wonder he has to take Ambien. Does he feel their pain when they are tortured and killed?

[DakotaDemocrat]

34. Prayers...

to the family, my prayers for comfort and peace.

To Bush...










...they're bringing it on.

[chelsea0011]

36. So, is Bush going to invade Saudia Arabia?

This death goes right to the feet of GW.

[chelsea0011]

37. So, is Bush going to invade Saudia Arabia?

This death goes right to the feet of GW.

[tandot]

61. Actually, the freepers are all for it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1156016/posts

To: M. Peach
I pray dear Lord that you will be with his family.

Pres Bush should order right now the take over of Saudi Arabia, the government, oil fields etc. and exterminate the vermin in that country!


46 posted on 06/18/2004 10:34:26 AM PDT by Babsig


Those f*cking idiots are so ignorant. "kill all muslims" that is their f*cking mentality. I hope those freepers would just all go to HELL.

[Zhade]

135. Advocating genocide.

And we shouldn't compare their hero to Hitler - why?

[Just Me]

63. Since "resources" are high on the neocon agenda, replacing Iran with,...

,...Saudi Arabia (particularly since SA is militarily weak) is a profound possibility.

[Red State Rebel]

38. Reality Check.....Do you really believe

that if we packed up everything in Iraq tomorrow and came home that there would be no more terror?

There were kidnappings and terror long before we went into Iraq and there will be long after.

Have you forgotten the USS Cole? The Khobar Towers? The Iranian Hostages?

If we are going to truly battle this problem, we HAVE to get our heads out of the sand and see it for what it is. Terrorism was, is, and will be. The argument is how we battle it. If we continue to politicize it, it does us no good. If John Kerry took office tomorrow it wouldn't change. These people are battling us because of their extremist religious views, they don't care who is president.

I have no idea how to stop it, apparently the powers that be haven't either, but to try to tack everything as the fault of a leader we dislike is denial.

Don't waste your hatred on Bush for this, hate the ones that are doing it.

[geek tragedy]

44. I agree.

I hate Bush, but the proper place for my anger is the actual perpetrators of the crime (with all due respect to the MIHOP folks). I hope to God there isn't another video.

That said, comparing this to Abu Ghraib is worthless at best and dishonest at worst.

[Longhorn79]

46. Al Arabiya said there is a video

[geek tragedy]

51. Please, for all that is good, folks

DON'T WATCH THE VIDEO. THAT ONLY ENCOURAGES THESE BARBARIANS TO MAKE MORE DEATH PORN.

[Just Me]

79. It may give clues as to who those barbarians are,...

,...where they are operating, what resources they have, where they are from, etc.

In honor of this man's death,...I will study the video to try and identify WHO took his life!!!

I assume NOTHING and question EVERYTHING,...for damned good reasons!!!!

[jukes]

167. you're so right

Just Me. there has been so much lying, killing, & lying about the killing. the 1st video, + the various discussions cleared up many things for me. there may be conspiracy theories; there's also conspiracy fact.

[gp]

47. Bullshit

Terrorists didnt just pop up out of nowhere.

The arrogance of the US administration is what is feeding these 'terrorists'.

Did you not notice that because of this Iraq war, terrorists attacks have surged?

[leftynyc]

74. And what was feeding the terrorists when

Iran kidnapped the embassy personnel (Carter was President)
American embassies were bombed in Africa (Clinton was President)
Cole as attacked (Clinton was President)
WTC was bombed (Clinton was President)

You're right, they didn't pop up out of nowhere - they've been attacking Americans for years.

[Just Me]

82. WE HAVE 23X MORE DOMESTIC ACTS OF TERROR AGAINST

AMERICANS THAN INTERNATIONAL ACTS!!!

Them's the FACTS, for Christ's sake!!!! Do we go around bombing states within our own country?!?!?!

I get sick of hearing this same ole' psychological warfare bullshit!!!!

[leftynyc]

102. What does domestic terrorism have to do with this?

We caught Timothy McVeigh - tried him and killed him.

The facts are that fanatics are targeting Americans, have been targeting Americans for over 20 years. I don't give a shit what their reasons are.

My anger for * stems from forgetting all about Al Quaida and bombing the crap out of country that was of no threat to us. Saudi Arabia has been financing these people and they are considered our allies. That's what sick.

[Just Me]

123. It has to do with "perspective" and "priorities". Get it? n/t

[leftynyc]

149. No idea what you are talking about

whose perspectives and priorities are in question?

I've got to go to an appointment now so it'll be a few hours before I can log back on.

[gp]

83. Clinton and Carter are not exempt from foreign policy 'blunders'

It just happens to be that the current administration has taken this foreign policy to a whole new level of incompetence.

[leftynyc]

111. My point is that it seems that some people here would

rather blame * than the people who kidnapping and killing Americans. His decisions on foreign policy suck but let's not forget that American citizens have long been the target of fanatics. Put the blame where it belongs.

[Just Me]

139. Fanatics. Fanatics!!!! Why don't we start cleaning up our own "fanatics"

We're doing a pretty piss-poor job of taking care of our own.

What makes any of us think we can do better at cleaning up other's problems or issues when we have so goddamn many of our own!!!!!

Bullshit!!!!

We have one of the highest rates of violent crimes in the world, we are one of the only so-called "civilized" nations that fails to provide adequate health care to our citizens, we have ridiculously high rates of domestic abuse, our freakin' corrupt cronies and corruptists are totally out of control and they never see a bar, mental illness is at nearly 1 in 3 of our citizens (and if they doesn't tell you we are failing to take adequate care of ourselves I don't know what the fuck will convince you).

WE HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS TO SOLVE WITHOUT "PRETENDING" WE CAN FIX THE REST OF THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS. WHAT DOESN'T ANYONE GET ABOUT THAT!!!!

<My rant for the day - please take none of it personally - I just believe we can do much better and that, until we take care of our own problems, we have no business pretending that we can somehow "fix" everyone elses. Besides, this war was always about money,...not "values" or "humanity".>

[leftynyc]

150. Do you honestly think that if we pulled every soldier we

have out of the Middle EAst, that this would stop? Are you really that naive?

[Just Me]

165. Who the fuck are you to call me, "naive"?

List your qualifications, in full,...before you pull that bullshit out!!!

[Just Me]

204. C'mon. Let's compare credentials, education and experience!!!!

[saigon68]

241. They don't want to argue with you

If they do--- they will also have to argue with me.

I don't understand why they are here anyway-- they can't debate.

They can't even construct a decent argument.

[Just Me]

261. 8 ^ )

:yourock:

[Dhalgren]

158. Because the American Corporate Empire

(along with its trusty military) has been oppressing people all over the world for years! The US also backs Israel with billions of dollars a year to (as the Arab world sees it) oppress the Palestinians! The US is too powerful to fight in a straight up, conventional war, so they use other tactics to combat the oppressors. Terrorism is just a military tactic, it isn't some sort of deviant evil force out in the world. People use terror tactics to advance their agendas the way the US uses carpet bambing.

[treepig]

176. have you heard of the "carter doctrine?"

have you heard of the 500,000 iraqi kids killed by clinton's sanctions?

but yet, the only reason they hate us is for our freedoms!

here's the peace-loving, jimmy carter's take on the middle east

Carter Doctrine (1980): in an attempt to protect Middle-East oil interests, Carter announces that the U.S. would intervene unilaterally in any Middle-East country under a Soviet Communist threat.

of course, today it is necessary to replace "Soviet Communist" with the new boogeyman "terrorist" - but other than that, what's the difference with today's policy?

maybe, just maybe, it's time to stop the cycle of violence. nuking saudi arabia ain't the answer here!!

[Longhorn79]

78. When I was in the World Trade Center in 1992 the day it was bombed,

I became keenly aware of just how much the insane terrorists hated America. I wasn't able to blame that on George Bush.

[tandot]

177. well, Bush has done everything in his power to piss them even

more off by conquering Iraq, supporting Israel, and the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal, and his arrogant "bring it on" and "my God is better than your God" attitude.

Of course, we had terrorism before 9/11. But we haven't seen the end of it. Bush is the best recruitment tool for terrorists.

[Forkboy]

255. 2-26-93

You'd think being there and all that you'd get the date right :shrug:

[Longhorn79]

264. That's my mistake, but I was certainly there

[chelsea0011]

48. No, but why Iraq? $$$$$$$$$wasted on the fight against terrorism

for an illeagal costly war

[DenverDem]

49. Who is doing it?

bushlolini inc. and their power elite overlords give both sides their orders.

It's a Hegelian scam.

[Bridget Burke]

55. We'll blame Bush as much as we like.

Surely the ones who did this deed bear the ultimate responsibility. But allowing the terrorist attacks of 9/11 and using them as an excuse to invade Iraq have made the world a much more violent place.

We can't get rid of all the terrorists, but we can get rid of Bush. Let's start there.

[ElectroPrincess]

69. That's the point ...

How to *battle* terrorism. The only way to ease the occurrences to terrorism is not through battle. It requires a multi-prong approach: raising the standard of living for the masses; talking with (not at) the dissenting elements; and using community outreach and public affairs in a POSITIVE way that encourages cooperation and building up of communities. Not destruction.

Unfortunately, it is valid to be angry with the Bush Administration because all they do is swagger, invade and threaten to invade or sanction other countries. It's as if they believe that diplomacy and consensus building is too *girly* for their macho image.

[Red State Rebel]

86. I agree with what you say, it hasn't helped...

and the macho posturing does make us look worse.

That said, we have to be realistic that terror didn't begin and won't end with them.

[ElectroPrincess]

151. Yes, that point is obvious to most ... go tell BushCo.?

Please tell George W. Bush that we can't hunt um' down and kill them all? ... if you have access to right wingers, that's a great place to start. <curtsy>

[Just Me]

117. True. We have 26K+/- incidences of violent crimes in our own country,...

,...and we have obviously failed to adequately address and invest and solve whatever are the causes. Yet, this administration takes any single violent international incident and funnels hundreds of billions of dollars to attempt to control/colonialize other nations.

Where the freak are our priorities?

Well, I know where this power-hungry, arrogant, greedy administration's priorities lie,...and it has nothing to do with "American Values". They couldn't give a rat's ass!!!!!

[BlueEyedSon]

72. And how did wasting $200 billion in Iraq help end terrorism?

I can hate Bush for lying to congress, misappropriating huge sums of money and not making us any safer. You should too. I dislike Bush for his actions, not vice-versa.

[Red State Rebel]

96. We are talking apples and oranges...

I don't think there are many if any people who like the politics of what happened with Iraq, what I am saying is terror was happening before and will happen when we are out of there.

If we are going to truly battle terror, we have to put the blame where it belongs - on the terrorists and figure out how to fight them.

[ElectroPrincess]

222. how to *fight* them ...

Again, you don't fight fire with fire unless you want Iraq to turn into a mirror of the Israeli Occupation. You cannot profoundly lessen the frequency of terrorist attacks with a purely military and/or law enforcement perspectives (best case scenario). We actually have to address the question "Why do they hate us?" fully.

The biggest "core" reasons that spawn young men to join radical (terrorist) groups = poverty and hopelessness. Again, we have to help the Iraqi leaders raise their people's standard of living before a significant part of Iraq's insurgency don't evolve into those known as "home grown" terrorists.

[Sal316]

81. We do hold those who need be responsible.

Yes, they beheaded him.
Yes, they are responsible.
Yes, I hope they are caught and brought to justice.


That said....

You (in the royal 'we' sense) cannot defeat "Terrorism". Cannot be done. Fighting a 'war' against an ideology is madness and will only lead to an endless, spiraling circle of violence.

There were always be 'bad people' in the world. However, we (royal) should know better than smacking the hornet's nest, antagonizing and exponentially multiplying the violence.

May the family of Paul Johnson find peace.

[RaRa]

87. Not to nitpick but,

why does the USS Cole always get lumped into terror? It wasn't terrorism. Terrorism can only occur against civilians. That was an act of war if you will. Not that it was right, but it wasn't terrorism.

[Red State Rebel]

98. Technically, that makes sense...

But it wasn't done by any country's army - does that make it still an act of war or terrorism? Not arguing, just asking. I had never really made that distinction before.

[RaRa]

109. I don't have the link

but I have read our State Department's definition of terrorism and it's explicit that the acts must be committed against civilians. So the military is I guess, exempt from falling "victim" to terrorism, so to speak. Plus, Al Qaeda may not represent a country, but I'd stretch it and say they could be a nation, not that that matters. I don't see a huge difference between the USS Cole and our invasion of Iraq: aggressive warfare.

[Auntie Bush]

94. Sorry Fred...It's Bush's fault. Terror already existed before

Bush...but it is going to be 1000 times worse because of him. He and his bloody administration and his prison torturers are directly responsible. God Damn George Bush! What has he done?

And Fred...the whole Islamic world won't hate us quite as much if we get rid of Bush! There will be less killing and every one counts...especially if it was your loved one.

[buff2]

112. Sorry......

Most of us in DU aren't bu$h ass lickers. I hate that bastard.....he has caused more countries turning on us than any President in US history.That lying SOB claimed to be a "uniter" not a divider....and we all know what a huge lie THAT is. Another beheading when his poll numbers are in the tank....and the whore media keeps telling us over and over and over about how the American people approve of that idiot and his war on "terrer". Good God, man.....get YOUR head out of the sand. It's politics as usual for this gang of Nazis in the WH. Then that phuckin moron will come out in front of a camera with that "I feel so bad" look on his ugly face and tout God then run back in the WH high fiveing KKKarl Rove and all the rest of those demons...relieved once again he'll get a bump in the polls.....again. That God damn bastard needs to suffer the same demise as our innocent Americans are suffering.No amount of suffering could be enough for that evil horrible man who thinks he was elected President. :argh:

[Bandit]

114. Have you forgotten the USS Cole? The Khobar Towers? The Iranian Hostages?

Where did those things happen? Do you think if we weren't there they would have still happened? Why is it only happening in the Arab nations where we are taking their oil? Why isn't Canada terrorizing us? Do you think they just woke up one day and said I feel like terrorizing someone and Americans seem like the easiest target? Do you really feel we have no fault at all in any of this. We are totally blameless and jusy can't understand why they don't like us? I say if America is truly a great nation then we will wake up and address some of these issues in some other way than raping, pillaging, and murdering Arabs.

[Magleetis]

133. Sorry

but I refuse to believe that these people hate us for no reason. I think our policy toward people in the Arab world has failed. It is our nations hubris and ethnocentrism that has contributed to this problem. We must accept some of the blame and take a hard look at the way we treat others. The war in Iraq has only made things worse.

[Sushi-Lover]

147. I don't hate Bush

I think he made some decisions that were not in the best interest of the country and he has put us in a dangerous position by doing so. This makes me dislike him and the decisions he has made. I agree with you on the following points. The Iraq war is not the cause of terrorism and pulling out will not cause it to go away.

However, we have used a lot of resources in invading Iraq that could have been used in a more efficient and affective way to combat the problem. I think using funds to improve our security (searches, airplane design etc) would have had a better result. I think using funds to increase support and manpower in our anti-terrorism intelligence efforts would have had a better result. I think that targeted military/police efforts on several fronts, cooperating with the countries involved, would have had a better result. In any case, because I believe that our current team is taking the wrong approach and it is costing us changing that team, in my opinion, will improve our fight against terrorism.

Note: I don't support pulling out of Iraq. I think there is a huge chance that if we do so there will be a civil war in that country which isn't good for us and certainly not good for Iraq.

[Vladimir]

263. Its 'these people' is it? n/t

[wicket]

39. Oh god :(

This is horrible :( :cry:

[Longhorn79]

41. Savages

Did the pieces of filth who did this claim they did it in the name of their God?

[Cheswick2.0]

161. you mean like our president claims our "war on terrorism" is in the name

of God?

[Bake]

42. Why the fuck do they BEHEAD everybody???

If it was al-Qaeda or whoever the fuck it was -- they are fucking inhuman bastards who need to be hunted down like fucking dogs and executed publicly.

I'm a dove who is getting pretty damn pissed off about this.

Bake

[chelsea0011]

66. It's off point but the History Channel

did a story I saw last week about David vs. Goliath and is there any truth to the story. What the History Channel pointed out is that after David killed Goliath he beheaded him. It was common for warriors to behead their enemy and carry the head around as a trophy. As barbaric as it can be, it may have thousands of years of history surrounding it.

[LandOLincoln]

89. Up until relatively recently, beheading was the preferred

method of execution in most of the world.

The English used an axe--the name Anne Boleyn ring a bell?--and the French used the guillotine.

The Saudis still behead for capital crimes, but they use a razor-sharp sword and kill with one swift and relatively merciful stroke. Let's hope that's how Paul Johnson died.

[Magleetis]

136. Same reason

we bomb everybody.

[Piperay]

234. Cause it is bloody and disgusting

probably one of the most mentally repulsive ways to go in the mind of Americans. :shrug: I know I find it to be one of the most nightmarish ways of dying, guess I read too much French and British history when I was a kid. :scared:

[Algomas]

253. Colorful old world tradition? (nt)

[jus_the_facts]

54. Dupe...de...Dupe Dupe.....

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1544211,00.html
US firm spread hostage video - Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated


Berlin - Video images of a US engineer taken hostage in Saudi Arabia, possibly by the al-Qaeda network, could have been put on the internet via a US firm based in California, Der Spiegel magazine reported on Thursday.

The video was released on Tuesday and shows relatively high-quality film of hostage Paul Johnson, who kidnappers from a group called "al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula" have threatened to kill by Friday.

The origin of the video was traced to Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated, a California land surveying and mapping company, said Spiegel online, the internet service for the respected German weekly.


......just don't know what to believe or not to anymore. :shrug:

[jus_the_facts]

56. Is this really REAL...or just propaganda?

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1544211,00.html
US firm spread hostage video - Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated


Berlin - Video images of a US engineer taken hostage in Saudi Arabia, possibly by the al-Qaeda network, could have been put on the internet via a US firm based in California, Der Spiegel magazine reported on Thursday.

The video was released on Tuesday and shows relatively high-quality film of hostage Paul Johnson, who kidnappers from a group called "al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula" have threatened to kill by Friday.

The origin of the video was traced to Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated, a California land surveying and mapping company, said Spiegel online, the internet service for the respected German weekly.


......just don't know what to believe or not to anymore. :shrug:

[Just Me]

88. Whoah,...now, that is some crazy shitzka!!!! n/t

Who is in charge of Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated?

[jus_the_facts]

108. yet another BILLION $$$$$ ????????

....makes ya wonder don't it? :tinfoilhat: :(

[Just Me]

121. Makes me sick,...and angry,....this game played with peoples' lives.n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

116. It's a subsidiary of the BFEE with ties to Dick Cheney I think.

I don't know for sure but I think it's as safe a guess as any.

[Just Me]

130. Tim Redd ring a bell?

These guys say that the site was "hijacked".

<snip>

The network usually spreads its message through Islamist sites but this time, Spiegel maintains, hackers created a special file at the company's web address at least an hour before global news agencies broke word of the video.

The magazine said that company chief Tim Redd had refused to comment.

<more at>

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1544211,00.html

[GermanDJ]

126. I read this Spiegel-article yesterday

It did not imply that the video was put on the the Internet by Silicon Valley Land Surveying Incorporated (I know that you don't say this either, but some people could nevertheless get that impression).

The author of the article describes that the webserver that hosts the company's website was hacked. The islamists then uploaded several propaganda videos into a subdirectory on the server. This hacking method is called "Subdirectory Defacement".

The link to the original article is http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,304473,00.html

(Sorry, only in German).


It's a sick world and a sad day.

[jus_the_facts]

134. ....or so somebody would have us believe.....

.....that it was *hacked* :tinfoilhat: I know...I know...but I don't trust these bush* bastards as far as I could throw 'em...they've proved time and time again they'll do ANYTHING to further their agenda. :evilfrown:

[bluestateguy]

57. This should re-direct our efforts against Al Qaeda

We are fighting the wrong war in the wrong place (Iraq), while Al Qaeda is at war with us. Saudi Arabia is a cesspool of Islamic extremism, the Royal family is twiddling their thums and the Bush family calls these people their friends.

[trav5787]

80. So

Should we attack Saudi Arabia? Would you support that?

[vivalarev]

85. the website

what the hell is the website these monkeys keep referring to?

[tandot]

97. Only f*cking freepers support that

see post 61 ...

[F.Gordon]

103. Was it the "Al-Qaeda" that did this?

This group is calling itself: the Al Falluja Squadron that "claims" to have ties to Al-Qaeda. Of course instead of just using the generic term..."terrorist"....."Al-Qaeda" has recognition power and seems to have become a propaganda buzzword.

Curious. Does anyone know the arabic word for "squadron". Odd name for a "terrorist group".

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/18/saudi.kidnap/index.html

[bushisanidiot]

113. Quick! Let's Bomb a Defenseless Country In Response!!

cue the knee-jerk reaction to a clear set-up

[sniffa]

157. retaLiate by invading yemen

[pinto]

129. my understanding is the the Saudi Wahibi, strict fundamentalists, were the

original ideological home of bin Laden. Wahibi sect opposes the Saudi Royal family for their "western habits" and are violently opposed to the US military support for the regime and our presence in Saudi Arabia.

This militancy against US citizens specifically started in Saudi Arabia.

Where do we go from here?

I think Bush's "spreading democracy throughout the Middle East" jingoism, backed by our obvious willingness to use our military, is extremely dangerous....

There are moderate Islamic factions being marginalized by the growing polarity between the US hard line and the fundamentalist Islamic hard line. This course will produce more polarity, more militancy, more American military action and more executions.

I'm so sorry for Mr. Johnson's family.

[saigon68]

162. Good analysis Pinto I agree

I can't believe Bill Clinton would have handled it like this. I think right after 9-11 he would have put together a true multinational force and gone after Al Quaida. Saddam might still be around but he would be a shell of his former self and thousands of young Iraqis and Americans would be alive today.

[pinto]

180. Yep. Saddam campaign infuriates me. He WAS a shell of his former

self, as you say. The money trail and the military trail would have had al Qaeda, and bin Laden, what two years ago? And we wouldn't have a line at the Islamic Militant recruiting office in Baghdad. Ahhhhhh!

[Just Me]

170. Yup. I agree. The neocons have created an extreme polarization.

I actually believe,...they have done so,...ON PURPOSE.

Perle pretty much spelled out this extremist faction's "world view": wage all-out-war and our children will sing or some such armageddon wacko creepiness. These extremists within our own country, in charge of our country,...were willing from the beginning to incite a third world war. They are very sick cookies who must be "treated".

[pinto]

182. Bush's "liberation" theology is getting frightening.....n/t

[Algomas]

254. I have read...

The unholy alliance between Wahabi Islam and the Saudi family has reached critical mass. Supposedly a relatively small force of Al Quaeda could topple the regime because the vast majority of unhappy citizens would either help them or stand back and let it happen.
Corporate greed has corrupted their country and created this monster. The only solution Bu$hco has is to respond with Full Spectrum Dominance.
Of course this is just throwing gasoline on a fire that will take generations of peace-makers to put out.

[Gregorian]

131. Very sad. The war on terror will be self perpetuating

It will be just like the war on drugs. They need customers.
They can fool half of the people all of the time, but they can't fool the other half at all.
None of this would be happening if we didn't have crazed ideologues. That goes for both sides of this mess.

Thanks Don, Dick, George, etc. You got what you wanted. But the mess will take more than it was worth.

[DakotaDemocrat]

152. Bingo...

The War on Terrorism cannot be won. We don't make "war" in a such a nuanced way. It crosses borders, it flows into neighborhoods, it transcends cultures.

What we are seeing here is something we cannot control. That's why we want to "get rid of them all."

We must:

1) Create change in Saudi. They must be our right hand man in this. When they think of wars, everyone thinks England is tailing behind the USA like a puppy. This must be Saudi Arabia.
2) Fix the Israel/Palestine conflict. Embrace Arabs.
3) Stop the money. See number 2.

My most radical thought right now:

4) Lean on Islamic leaders - whoever they might be. Make them realize the error of those who think they represent its religion. Create in these leaders' mind, with no doubt, that this is not the way to advance their cause.

[Judi Lynn]

159. Really good post. Thanks.

Welcome to DU, Gregorian. :hi:

[Just Me]

210. Gregorian, take "war" out of the challenge,...and perhaps, peace,...

,...is possible. "War" are the words of power-mongers and profiteers.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[Gregorian]

216. Yes. And thank you!

I've been the victim of these so-called wars. Sure I wanted to smoke pot when I was younger. But what a way to grow up. That had more of an effect of alienation than they would care to find out. And all that when tobacco, a highly addictive and deadly substance was free to buy and use.
And thanks all for the warm welcome. I can't tell you how good it feels. Even in these times, I feel so much less alone than I did during the 80's and early 90's.
By the way, I keep saying that when people get power, they experiment with it to find out what makes humans tick. And invariably, those humans suffer. Love is just too simple. But it is the only thing that works. Even I have to curb my desire to hate these goons. Excuse the diatribe. We have a lot on our minds.

[lumpy]

138. Killing and maiming by bombs/bullets

vs. beheading ? This strikes home because it is an American and it is heavily publicized. Bush will most likely get a boost in the polls. Revenge is a powerfull force.

[many a good man]

155. Torture techniques: Ancient vs. Modern

This is clearly retribution for the ongoing torture scandals at US-run prisons. "Public" beheadings prior to Abu Ghraib were almost unheard of.

This is asymmetric warfare taken to its next level. We use smart bombs they use knives. We apply modern psychological torture techniques and they use a classic one from the ancient era. Beheading somebody on camera is meant to torture all Americans. It brings into sharper focus the asymmetry between the forces involved in this battle.

I refuse to call one side better or worse than the other. Its all barbaric.

[RedEarth]

166. LINK to Yahoo story.....U.S. Hostage Beheaded, Terror Group Says

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040618/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_kidnapped_american

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - An al-Qaida group said Friday it killed American hostage Paul M. Johnson Jr, posting an Internet message that showed three photographs of a severed head that appeared to be his.


The message, in the name of Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, appeared as a 72-hour deadline set by the group ended.


"In answer to what we promised ... to kill the hostage Paul Marshall (Johnson) after the period is over ... the infidel got his fair treatment," the statement said.


"Let him taste something of what Muslims have long tasted from Apache helicopter fire and missiles," the statement said.


Johnson, 49, who worked on Apache attack helicopter systems for Lockheed Martin, was kidnapped last weekend by militants who threatened to kill him by Friday if the kingdom did not release its al-Qaida prisoners. The Saudi government rejected the demands.


As the deadline approached, Saudi security forces launched an all-out search, going door-to-door in some Riyadh neighborhoods, as Johnson's wife went on Arab television Friday pleading for his release.


After Johnson's death was reported, his family was in seclusion at a town house in Galloway Township, N.J., where they have been holding a vigil.


A man standing in front of the house identified himself only as "Bill" and said the family did not want to talk to reporters.


One of the three photographs posted on the Web site showed a man's head, face toward the camera, being held by a hand. The other two showed a beheaded body lying prone on a bed, with the severed head placed in the small of his back, the clothes underneath bloodied.


The face looked like Johnson's.


more.......

[geniph]

171. The whole point of the Geneva Convention

is to protect our armed forces. If we engage in torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners, then the same will be visited on our captured troops. The whole point of making a compact like the Geneva Convention is to STOP it. "We won't torture captured prisoners if you won't." The second we started mistreated captured prisoners, we put our troops and civilian personnel in these regions in the gravest danger.

It is disgusting for any wingnut to try to justify any violations of the Geneva Convention and then try to claim they support our troops. Anyone who actually supports our troops understands that you cannot break the cycle of prisoner abuse by STARTING it.

[glitch]

187. well said nt

[saigon68]

233. These disrupters here ignore your logic

They have never fought in or for anything -- they only type bullshit and look at dirty pictures on their monitors.

[RebelOne]

175. Photos are on Drudge Report and also

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com

[rawstory]

213. Don't see them on Homeland security, which is surprising

but we have them at http://bluelemur.com/uncutarchive.htm

[Politicub]

181. Hey Bush, I'm just brimming with feelings of security

Yeah, of course your unjust war makes the US safer. /sarcasm

I don't even know what to say about Paul Johnson. My heart is broken for his family. His son was on Aaron Brown on CNN and I can't even imagine what it must have been like to see his father and to know he was beheaded.

And for what? For the Right's folly and Bush's kicks.

I hate war. It only begets more violence.

As Kerry said, the US should never fight a war because we want to, we fight them because we *have* to.

[former conservative]

184. I am angry

Oh God, that is sick. I am starting to get angry at these people.

[treepig]

201. which people?

these?

A documentary film by Jamie Doran, "Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death," contains several videotaped testimonies of witnesses to the massacre. One of these witnesses, claims that prisoners were stuffed into stiflingly hot containers and driven for hours in the sun. When the prisoners begged for air, Northern Alliance soldiers stopped the convoy and made air holes by firing into the crates, blood pouring from the holes afterwards. Upon reaching their destination, the containers were opened, and bodies tumbled to the ground. Several US Special Forces soldiers then searched the survivors for key prisoners who would be useful for interrogation, and then watched as the rest were shot. Though members of the American team deny this, a Northern Alliance soldier claims that the US forces demanded the soldiers dispose of the bodies with bulldozers before satellite photos could be taken.

http://irvineprogressive.com/vol1issue1/news3.htm

or these?

an American AC-130 gunship killed and injured more than 100 civilians in the small Afghan village of Kakarak, US military officials have refused to admit that the raid was a mistake or to rule out similar actions in the future. The massacre and the dismissive attitude of US officials have added to the mounting anger among ethnic Pashtuns in Uruzgan and neighbouring provinces in the country’s south and east.

Comments by US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz in Afghanistan last week simply underscore the callous indifference of the Bush administration to the rising civilian toll caused by American bombing and military operations. Speaking to reporters at the Bagram air base north of Kabul, Wolfowitz said the US had “no regrets . . .

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/afgh-j22.shtml

[Wednesdays]

190. Was there even a serious effort to save this man's life???

I mean, everybody's running around like ants after the anthill's been knocked over NOW, but what, if anything has been done by the government to try to bring him home alive?

If there was any effort, they certainly didn't make any noise about it.

Yeah, yeah, I know we don't negotiate with terrorists, but does that mean they should sit around and do nothing?

Something just doesn't smell right here.

[GarySeven]

192. Why do they always do their beheadings ....

in time for Rush Limbaugh?

Hmmmm.

[gatlingforme]

195. R.I.P.

[Anon]

196. Just like to interject

That I don't believe that there is anything that US could do that would appease radical Muslims that join Al-Quaeda or any other terrorist organization, short of eliminating all support of Israel. Even if we did this and Israel was destroyed and all the Jewish inhabitants killed. What then? They're still would be Muslims who would still want to kill us simply because we are 'infidels'.

[The Blue Knight]

205. This makes me sick.

[Just Me]

212. I don't appease corporatists who betray their "followers",...

,...and contribute to mass murder for purposes of profit.

I don't appease any radical. I abhor the power-mongers who exploit not only our people, but people around the globe,...as they are now doing,...not for anyone's freedom or benefit,...other than their own.

[0007]

258. Your right on target , Just Me.

I believe we must look within before going forward. Fighting for the rights of humanity is a worldly effort.

[daleo]

226. Sure there would be some left, who would still hate the west

Just, not many, and they wouldn't have much influence. Once we quit exploiting people, and just leave them be, they usually start to ignore us quite quickly. They have other things to get on with, then.

Look at Viet Nam.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vogon_Glory]

202. Abu Ghraib Torturers Do Not Have Monopoly on Barbarism

I guess that the al Quaeda terrorists were trying to demonstrate the inherent "superiority" of Islamic civilization over the "decadent" West as well as prove that the US taxpayer-funded torturers at Abu Ghraib prison don't have a monopoly on barbarism.

[Disturbed]

220. Violence vs Violence

"Allowing our helicopter pilots to better protect our troops is by no means "brutal".

Not that it justifies the execution but this person was working on helicopters for Saudi forces, not American forces. Just correcting the statement.

It is real unfortunate that 60Min2 picked out the actual least violent images to show because now most Americans use the excuse that what occured in Abu Graib was not "that bad". The fact is that the US has over 24 secret detainee camps where torture is a policy. Now, most Americans believe that only a "few bad apples" went overboard at only one location. I believe that the Media purposely sent out this falacy and the Govt. is milking it for all they can.

Does this excuse any terrorist org. or group that commit acts of barbarism? Of course not!

This issue is a tangled web and this "War On Terrorism" is a misperception. A war cannot be waged upon a tactic. The Bush Admin. is incompetent and mis-directed in this so called "War On Terrorism". Sadly, the violence will continue.

TERRORISM!
What are the Solutions?
Before reacting in anger to the horrible attack by terrorists on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon, the people of the United States and others need to reflect carefully on what are the real causes of terrorism and what are the best solutions to this difficult problem. To answer a devastating terrorist attack with more terrorism will likely cause continuing terrorism. Certainly mass murderers must be brought to justice, and the entire world should unite in that effort. The intelligent question is how that justice can be brought about without making the problem worse. The statement by President Bush that no distinction will be made between the terrorists and those who harbor them may resonate with angered people, but it indicates at best a lack of subtlety and at worst a dangerous escalation that could punish innocent people who were in no way responsible for the crimes. Certainly the question of complicity must be examined; but surely there is a different response warranted for murderers or for those who have passively tolerated their existence. Let us not repeat the mistake of punishing an entire country for the crimes of individual criminals as the United States has done recently in Iraq and Yugoslavia on many occasions.

Talking of war is a dangerous escalation of rhetoric. We need to examine the terrorism of our own government as well as that of others. The United States has been supplying Israel with weapons in its continuing attacks against Palestinians fighting for their rights and homeland. Both the Palestinians and the Jews are using criminal methods, which are not to be condoned; but we must examine our complicity that makes many people, especially Muslims, hate the United States with such vehemence. If the United States truly believes in freedom and democracy, as its leaders so often state, then we should support the efforts for an international court of law for the world. The faulty election process in the United States has made many people realize that this society has lost much of its democracy, which is increasingly controlled by the wealthy corporations that dominate the media and the corrupt elections. The latest attempt at world government, the United Nations, is dominated by the five original nuclear powers, does not represent the people of the world but only the national governments, and is not democratic since the Security Council can be blocked from acting by any one of those five nuclear powers.

In the short-term the important principle here is justice. If President Bush truly wants to bring the criminals to justice, then he will support fair trials for individuals rather than a lynch-mob mentality that would punish not only individuals but innocent bystanders as well by military means. Justice is best achieved by enforcing individual responsibility by an unbiased judicial process under the constitutional guarantees of law. No nation or group of nations has the sovereign right to arrogate to themselves the punishment of human beings outside their borders without any legitimate judicial process.

The best long-term solutions are a democratically elected world government in a constitutional and federal system that will preserve the rights of all while bringing effective law enforcement everywhere in the world based on universal laws rather than by the military force of the most powerful nation-states. If we go on failing to work for real justice of all people, then the terrorism is likely to continue, because the people who feel oppressed by the super-powerful United States and its ally Israel will use whatever means they can, including suicidal missions, to fight back. At a tremendous military disadvantage, a handful of daring people used only knives and their adversary's jetliners to destroy thousands of innocent people and part of the infrastructure of world trade. Will police-state methods of searching at airports be able to prevent all such acts in the future? Perhaps the next terrorists will use martial arts with no weapons at all, or they might use chemical or biological weapons.

Ultimately we need to learn how to make peace and establish justice, not by adopting the terrorist methods of the criminals, but by protecting everyone's rights, learning how to share our wealth rather than merely exploit people, and trust in democratic institutions that recognize the votes of all. We need a steady process of disarmament with very careful inspection so that no individual, group, or state can terrorize other people. Finally, we need world democracy that can enforce law fairly for all, not a group of powerful nations imposing their selfish will with national military forces.

Copyright © 2001 by Sanderson Beck

[Heyo]

206. There is no justification for that...

And the people who did at are savages.....

.. the culture they subscribe to is one of murder and death.

I wonder if we will here any moderate Muslims speak out against this. I hope so, so that the stink of these savage beasts doesn't rub off on the decent people who follow Allah, whoa re the majority by the way although you wouldn't know it because they stay so silent. Probably because they are affraid they will get their heads sawed off by these murders also.

Heyo

[rawstory]

209. PHOTOS (without Drudge)

Not for the faint of heart:

http://bluelemur.com/uncutarchive.htm

[SKKY]

218. IMHO...

That kinda makes the dog and nudity thing from Abu Ghraib seem like an episode of Pee Wee's Playhouse. I keep having to remind myself why we're different from the cowards that did this because I'm getting extremely nonplussed about this. I wonder if the wives of the prisoners in the Abu Ghraib photos felt as bad as Paul Johnson's wife must feel right now?

[ElectroPrincess]

224. When push comes to shove ...

We're all human and I doubt we'd act different if we were raised in such an environment. Please be careful NOT to classify "the enemy" as "animals", less than human and in need of killing. Remember all the horrible names we called the Vietnamese people? They are human, just like us ... humans who did horrible deeds. Responding in kind will only escalate the violence.

But no ONE party can validly claim the moral high ground. Murder is murder.

[daleo]

227. There were plenty of deaths in the prison

It wasn't just fun and games with dogs. Upwards of 50 Iraqis died during confinement, definitely some during interrogation (a 'contractor' is being charged in one death right now). This beheading is brutal, but so were all those deaths in the prisons. Just because the body still has a head attached doesn't mean it's not just as dead.

The wives of the dead prisoners must certainly feel just as bad as Mrs. Johnson.

The difference between the U.S. military and Al-Queda (or whatever terrorist group you name) is supposed to be that one is the military force of a civilized nation of laws, and the other is an international criminal conspiracy. That is the theory anyway.

[saigon68]

230. I wonder if the wives of the prisoners in the Abu Ghraib

You got all the answers sporty -----------why don't you write this dead guys wife ----------and tell her your sorry the AMERIKANS beat this man, her husband to DEATH !!!!!

[parasim]

238. Yes, I'm sure a lot of them did...

I would imagine the relatives of these unfortunate souls feel perhaps as bad as Mr. Johnson's wife, as well:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

and I'm sorry, but I just can't see how terror by vicious dog and sodomy by lightstick (not to mention untold deaths) compare to Pee Wee's Playhouse...

[Manix]

215. ..I'm sure glad the dimwit has made the world safer for Americans.

[agincourt]

237. I know this is off subject,

But I would not work in Saudi Arabia now. I think one of their last polls showed nearly 50% approval rating for Osama Bin Laden. If I worked in Saudi I'd either get out or get a black market AK-47.

[saigon68]

239. Its a good analysis spot on

And totally ON THE SUBKJECT. This guy played the field, made megabucks, paid no taxes and got caught up in a civil war ---as a hired "CONTRACTOR" THE OTHER SIDE ELIMINATED.

Its sad for his family-- but not unexpected.

[Royd]

245. People's Front of Judea

I have been watching with growing disbelief the exchanges going back and forth regarding the tragic murder of Johnson, and instead of focusing on the real enemy which is the Wahabi fundamentalists (sic Al Qaeda) I am dismayed to note that many have chosen to act out Monty Pythons Life of Brian.

How the terrorists must just love this!!!.

Royd

BRIAN:
Are you the Judean People's Front?
REG:
Fuck off!
BRIAN:
What?
REG:
Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS:
Wankers.
BRIAN:
Can I... join your group?

REG:
No. Piss off.
BRIAN:
I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA:
Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG:
Schtum.
JUDITH:
Are you sure?
BRIAN:
Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
REG:
Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.
BRIAN:
I do!
REG:
Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN:
A lot!
REG:
Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah...
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters...
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
LORETTA:
And the People's Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We're the People's Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People's Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He's over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!

[saigon68]

257. Welcome to DU Royd

Glad to have you here :-) :-)

Jump right in !!!!!!!

Its never dull

[treepig]

260. the problem with your characterization of the "real enemy"

is that we have created and nurtured this enemy, and continue to do so.

a silly analogy may help illustrate - let's say an annoying neighborhood cat continually comes and does her business in your flowerbed next to your frontdoor. a tiny thistle plant begins to grow there, and you notice that the cat avoids it so you water the thistle plant, give it miracle grow, weed out competing plants, etc. sure enough, the thistle flourishes and keeps the cat away. but soon enough, it grows to a monstrous size and blocks access to your front door so that everytime you come and go, it snags your clothes and scratches your flesh. but yet you keep nourishing it and blaming everything on the cat, long gone by now.

so yes, the thistle plant (if this analogy is too tortured to be obvious, think "al qaida") is a problem, but so are you (think "u.s. gov't policy")!! in fact, the argument could easily be made that you're the greater problem - but thanks for trying to divert our attention by showing us a cat-fight over in the next county.

[mountainvue]

247. What is the

tatoo pictured on Mr. Johnson's arm?

[pinniped]

252. It looked like an eagle.

n/t

[saigon68]

256. kicking