Armed guards at child 'camp' questioned by state official (TN fundies)

[NashVegas]

where else?

http://tennessean.com/local/archives/04/05/51530767.shtml?Element_ID=51530767

Church fighting efforts to regulate its center

A Nashville church that's fighting to keep from registering its daily child ''camp'' as a state-licensed day-care center posts armed guards on the church grounds, which is raising alarms for state human services officials.

The church also defied a court order yesterday and continued with its day camp, which accommodates more than 150 children up to age 5.

Priest Lake Community Baptist Church officials say that the guards carry their weapons legally and that the state is trying to force an ''atheist'' view on the congregation by requiring it to register as a day-care provider.

It's a lovely day in the neighborhood.

[Spinzonner]

1. Just another one of your every day

faith-based initiatives.

It's a reach, but the movie 'Taps' comes to mind.

[hang a left]

2. Weird.

"Church officials say they are not offering child care; rather, they're holding daily church services 6 a.m.-6 p.m., and they should be exempt from state laws. Children's parents pay weekly fees to attend."

Ah....yeah....right.

[Book Lover]

10. Goddamit! These

people are supposed to be truthful, like their god told them to. "Not offering child care" !!

[Occulus]

12. Paying to hear God's word?

They call themselves 'Christians', I presume?

[DoNotRefill]

28. Every secular summer camp I went to....

charged a weekly or monthly fee.

[struggle4progress]

23. You don't have armed guards at your church services?

[TahitiNut]

46. Gee! Why didn't the Catholic Church claim child abuse was a sacrament?

That would sure solve the problem ... escape all laws and regulations by claiming religious protection! :puke:

These people should be incarceated for their own protection - they're too stupid to breathe.

[DoNotRefill]

54. Tahiti....

that comment isn't very nice.

"These people should be incarceated for their own protection - they're too stupid to breathe."

That's the exact same rationale given by the courts for programs of forced sterilization of social undesireables. As Chief Justice Holmes stated: "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." See Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927).

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=274&invol=200

You're a better person than that, Tahiti....I at least expect better from you.

[TahitiNut]

65. An apparent inability to recognize hyperbole...

... easily invalidates opinions regarding whether or not I'm a "better person." Such unctious comments directed at me personally were neither invited nor welcome.

[DoNotRefill]

66. I'm sorry...I didn't get the memo....

that you should only be called on posting crap when you INVITE comments...although, truthfully, I thought by posting, you WERE inviting comment...

Don't worry....from now on, I'll just lower my expectations.

[TankLV]

69. Just by continuing to post, we know how low you can go.

nt

[TankLV]

68. TahitiNut said it perfectly.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.

The spirit of the statement is spot-on. I would like to think that it's "protected from themselves" - just like the insane, children and dumb animals are not allowed to have control over all things at all times.

But then, considering that it's you who's "offended" by such common sense, I am not surprised.

[donsu]

3. pre-schoolers and guns?

guns to protect the children from atheists? these people are stark raving mad.

[mouse7]

4. Tennessee needs to take custody of those children

Any parent that willingly drops off their kids into a potential fire-fight is a BAD parent and needs to have their kids taken until they learn how not to endanger their children's safety.

[Just Me]

19. I agree. These people have OBVIOUSLY tripped out!!!

I mean, geez,...talk about major paranoia,..."we have to protect ourselves against atheists who want to take over".

W-A-C-K-O!!!!

[rocktivity]

22. W-A-C-K-O?

Here's hoping we don't end up with another W-A-C-O.

Can't they just close the building down after the children have left at 6PM?

:headbang:
rocknation

[DoNotRefill]

29. Hmmmm.....

so, you've never left your kids someplace with armed security?

Have you ever taken your kids into a bank? Most of them have armed security.

Where I used to live, the hospitals had armed security.

Most public schools now have armed security (in the form of a cop stationed on the grounds, they're not called armed security, they're called things like "Public Resource Officers", but they carry guns.)

[robbedvoter]

43. Are you the 2nd Amendment DU-er? One issue posters....

I went throughout the thread and your posts creeped me almost as much as the story

[DoNotRefill]

44. Nah, not a one issue poster...

I frequently post on civil rights issues, including the war on drugs and abortion rights.

For the record: I'm against the war on drugs, and categorically support a woman's reproductive freedoms without restrictions.

It's a rarity that I miss posting on a gun thread, because I see so much disinformation and ignorance out there on the subject. I try to stay out of the Gun Dungeon, because certain posters there are unabashed trolls.

Also, I don't think guns are CATEGORICALLY good. I think their use can be good, it can be bad, or it can be neutral. In and of themselves, they're just inanimate objects, not "Satan Personified", as some people here think.

[DoNotRefill]

37. says who?

"Any parent that willingly drops off their kids into a potential fire-fight is a BAD parent"

So if I drop my kids off at a police station, where there are guns and therefore "the potential for a firefight", for something along the lines of PAL, then I'm a bad parent?

[Bandit]

38. Yes

:shrug: Why would you abandon your child under five years old to any armed camp? We all know how "Godly" the police are and any "Christian" that feels the need to be armed around some under five year old children is sick and any parent who would leave their child there is sick as well. Yes a Bad Parent.

[DoNotRefill]

39. Maybe because guns are NOT necessarily evil.

and I guarantee you that ANY "armed camp" I'd drop our daughter to be off in will have FAR fewer guns in it that our house has in it, INCLUDING the local police station. The only possible exception is the local National Guard Armory, but since that's for a small unit, it's debatable unless we both did an inventory and compared it, which ain't gonna happen. And before you say "handguns can't compare to military weapons", my safes contain everything from small pistols to real, live, crew-served belt-fed squad-automatic machineguns of better quality than the US military issues. All legal. All perfectly safe.

BTW, I'm not even a Christian. I just see guns as tools. They can be used for good, they can be used for bad, or they can just be there and not be used.

Also, I don't think the people are carrying guns to protect themselves from the 5 year olds, I think they're carrying guns to protect themselves and the five year olds from others who come around with evil intent.

I guess by your standards, I'm a bad parent, since I'll allow my child to live with me and my wife, in an "armed camp". Pfffft.

[Politicub]

47. Dude, it's not just the armed guards

It's the fundies wielding them. Guns + kids + fundies almost screams "potential problem here" if you ask me.

[DoNotRefill]

48. So people should be denied their rights...

because they're fundies?

:wtf:

Every man on the planet is a potential gigolo. They have the required equipment. That doesn't mean they're all gigolos.

The article doesn't say ANYTHING about allegations of child abuse. Nothing....Nada....Zip. The presumption MUST BE innocent until proven guilty. In this case, there haven't even been allegations, much less an indictment, much less a trial, much less a conviction.

Or is the goal to not allow fundies to have children?

[Politicub]

49. Fine, let them have their little armed day care church thing

But I don't share your seemingly libertarian views on guns. I don't believe weapons should be in the hands of some people. A gun can be used as the ultimate instrument of intimidation, and some people abuse that power.

But I live in the city. I hear about shootings on the news, and I read about them in the newspaper. Clearly the perpetrators are people who should have not been able to acquire a gun.

So with the church/day care deal, your point is well taken that there hasn't been any abuse reported. I hope someone keeps an eye on this operation.

[DoNotRefill]

50. I don't think everybody should have guns.

There are some people I think should NOT have guns. These include convicted felons, people adjudicated mentally defective (this means they were found to be nuts in a court, with due process, and doesn't include people who are in therapy voluntarily), people with a history (read conviction) of domestic abuse, people with a history (read multiple convictions) of serious substance abuse, and generally people who have done stupid human tricks to the point that they've been stripped of their rights due to a criminal conviction.

ALL of these things are ALREADY illegal, everywhere in the Union. It's Federal law.

Generally, I think people who have a right to vote have a right to have guns. The number of guns doesn't matter, the types of guns doesn't matter. And if they want to carry them and have gone through the process to get a CCW permit, that's good. Even if it means they carry to church. And even if it means around children.

[Politicub]

52. Then we must agree to disagree

Though I do recognize some states do have a strenuous process for gaining a CCW permit. Those people probably do understand guns, for the most part.

So, why not require everyone who wants to acquire or keep guns become trained and licensed? I don't think a thorough background check and waiting period is too much to ask of those who want to own guns.

[DoNotRefill]

53. Why not require mandatory voter "education"?

because you shouldn't need to get a license to exercise a constitutionally protected right.

In order to buy a gun in interstate commerce (ie from a gun dealer), you MUST undergo a criminal background check. Waiting periods have literally killed people. I recall a case in Louisiana a while back where a guy was getting threats at work, went to buy a gun to protect himself, and was murdered before the waiting period expired. He could have been approved instantaneously, but the law at the time said he had to wait.

If you were a battered woman who had fled your abusive husband, and he had sworn to track you down and strangle you, how would a mandatory waiting period make you safer?


"I don't think a thorough background check and waiting period is too much to ask of those who want to own guns."

"I don't think a literacy test is too much to ask of those who want to vote." Would you agree with this statement? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Politicub]

55. Again, we must agree to disagree

"I don't think a literacy test is too much to ask of those who want to vote." Would you agree with this statement? I sure as hell wouldn't.

No, I don't agree with that statement. But I still do believe gun owners should be licensed and weapons serially numbered. I don't equivocate voting and gun rights.

Your example of the battered woman isn't germane to your argument. She's probably more at risk by buying a weapon that she may not fully understand how to use. I can imagine it being used against her by the abusive, controlling boyfriend.

[DoNotRefill]

59. Why not?

Why is the Second Amendment less important than any other constitutionally protected freedom enumerated in the Bill of Rights and other constitutional amendments? Where is this hierarchy of rights spelled out?

One of the good things about guns is that they are generally very simple to operate. As the saying goes, they're "the original point-and-click interface." If the battered woman is already going to be strangled to death by her enraged husband, does it really matter if he takes the gun from her and shoots her instead? Either way, she's still dead, right? But, worst-case scenario, if she shoots him to save herself (which isn't remotely hard to do if somebody is strangling you, you just jab the muzzle into them and pull the trigger, so missing isn't possible), she's saved herself, and is still alive, so she's MUCH better off.

[htuttle]

5. Sounds like more Waco Wackos!

Anyone marrying 12 year olds in there?

[noonwitch]

6. Doesn't TN have some kind of licensing process for camps?

Michigan does-I went to a lot of camps over the years, and never ran into a situation in which there were armed guards. It is unacceptable for them to expect a license and have armed guards around the kids.

On the other side, it is worth their time to get rid of the guards and meet the requirements, because if they are licensed as a day care provider, than people receiving state day care benefits can use their program and they can make more money. If they want state money, they must follow state rules.

[BiggJawn]

9. Licenses are "of the Devil"...

They don't WANT a State License. they don't want licenses for ANYTHING. I have seen looney-tune churches like this before (Indianapolis Baptist Temple). I'd bet the also perform marriages without license, citing that they answer to a "Higher Authority", so they don't have driver's licenses or gun permits, either.

And they don't have "employees" they have "Associate Pastors" who take care of things like the "Child-care Ministry", and the "Toilet-cleaning Ministry" and the "Grass-cutting Ministry", so they avoid paying payroll taxes.

the armed gaurds are NOT for the children, they're for the "Minnions of the Evil State" who might try to sieze church property.

[barbaraann]

13. The "higher authority" of a fundie church is always the penis

of an old man.

[BiggJawn]

14. Sure 'nuff...

Especially the "old man" in the sky.

[NashVegas]

20. All It Would Take is Someone Getting an Eye Poked Out

and a parent could sue the state for allowing an unlicensed day care center to operate.

[BiggJawn]

21. But they wouldn't.

"God's Will", y'know...

[DoNotRefill]

51. Wait....doesn't the article say....

that the armed security folks have valid, state-issued CCW licenses?

Should churches be required to have child care center licenses to conduct Sunday School? Should they be required to be accredited as a school by the State for Sunday School?

At what point does this licensure issue become an issue of religious freedom?

[yellowcanine]

7. Didn't Bob Jones Univ want to arm guards with Uzis?

I believe it was Bob Jones Univ. in SC that applied for a permit to arm its guards with Uzis a while back. I don't remember if the permit was granted. Be prepared. One never knows when the infidels or liberals will attack.

[LastDemocratInSC]

24. Well, now that you mention it ...

I grew up in the shadow of the school, literally. There were newspaper reports here in Greenville in the late 1960s that the school, through the cooperation of former Senator Strom Thurmond, had acquired machine guns to protect its campus. A few years ago, during conversations with a former student who was once a campus cop, I learned that the machine gun thing was true. He had been a cop there as a student during the 1970s and one of his duties was to "inspect the arsenal" weekly. It was located in the basement of one of the buildings. He told me about molding cases of ammunition and a few guns and some training manuals.

So, yes, they did have guns, but not Uzis. They must have been worried about having us Greenville High School geeks from the Science Club scale their fences in the night.

About 3 years ago one of the current campus cops shot out the radiator in the car of another student because he entered campus without first stopping at the gate. It's never boring around here.

Oh, and I also have the distinct pleasure of having been thrown off the campus there a long time ago. It was one of the most sublime experiences of my life.

[DoNotRefill]

30. MOST universities have machineguns in the police station...

at least EVERY ONE with a ROTC program does.

[davidinalameda]

8. figured they were Baptists

the Baptists will be leading the right wing come the revolution

[tom_paine]

11. Sounds like there some serious abuse going on there

probably sexual abuse.

What are these freaks trying to hide?

I'll bet there's some priests who could tell us of the Sexy Punishments they meted out to their victims.

[DoNotRefill]

33. What makes you say that?

A fair number of Synagogues now have armed security. Why? Because racist assholes shot several of them up. They were considered to be "gun free zones", so criminals knew if they went there, nobody could shoot them until the cops showed up. It was considered a much safer way to make a racist political statement than going to the El Al counter at the airport and shooting at them.

You're suggesting that there is sexual abuse taking place there. Do you have ANYTHING factual to back that up, or is it just a hunch?

[maddezmom]

15. sounds like another Waco in the making

:crazy:

[barbaraann]

16. http://www.reformation.com/

n/t
http://www.reformation.com/

[DoNotRefill]

42. Ah. So I guess non-church people don't molest children?

eom

[Trillo]

17. A deep issue

Does a parent have the right to gather in association with other parents, start a school, and keep it out of the purview of the state? Do the parents of these children want their kids in this school?

Isn't the siren call of public school teachers these days that the parents don't take enough responsibility? This issue is that the parents appear to be taking too much responsibility.

Do public schools have security personnel or police on their grounds? Are they ever armed? When they are armed: statistically, is the point of those guns pointed more at the children within, or at outsiders invading?

Do public schools abridge students constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, such as freedom of speech and 4th amendment guarantees?

If the state decides to require regulation through such things as licenses, inspections . . . assigned curricula, censored or metered textbooks. . . , then is the state willing to take financial responsibility for what they've regulated? In the case of regulation, is money flow still toward the state, and financial and legal responsibility toward the parents?

Does the state have an absolute obligation to school all children? If so, why are there any vouchers allowing parents to send their children to any private school? Why are there any private schools?

[DoNotRefill]

32. Answers:

"Do public schools have security personnel or police on their grounds? Are they ever armed? When they are armed: statistically, is the point of those guns pointed more at the children within, or at outsiders invading?"

Yes. You may or may not remember, but at Columbine, there was a police officer in the building when the shooting started. He was armed, and ran away.

"Do public schools abridge students constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, such as freedom of speech and 4th amendment guarantees?"

Debatable, but I certainly think so. For example, if speech is deemed to be "disruptive", it can be banned. Saying "Bush sucks" is deemed to be disruptive in a lot of places.

"Does the state have an absolute obligation to school all children? If so, why are there any vouchers allowing parents to send their children to any private school? Why are there any private schools?"

The State DOES NOT have an obligation to school all children. The State has an obligation to see to it that all children are educated. There's a BIG difference.

[Trillo]

67. More Questions:

"The State DOES NOT have an obligation to school all children. The State has an obligation to see to it that all children are educated. There's a BIG difference."

I understand the difference. Should The State have the obligation to school all children? If not, why?

If the education being given at 'some' private schools is worse than sub-standard: let's say at some schools it teaches children abject lessons of failure, then does The State have any obligation to correct this?

This leads to at least two derivative questions. Does The State have any responsibility for 'the individuals' who were taught ' the wrong lessons?' Does The State have any responsibility to 'others in society' who are affected by those who were taught 'the wrong lessons?'

It would seem there's a pattern here that, at least in my mind, connects to the Iraqi Prisoner Abuse scandal. If The State creates a structure of permissiveness, i.e., it creates no overt rules against what is being or may be taught in a worst case, then why isn't The State responsible for what that particular private educational institution has created?

If The State only has an obligation to see young people educated somewhere, but no responsibility for the quality of education imparted, then what has been created? A State Tyrant who can rule with impunity?

[yellowcanine]

18. "These are our kids; that's the thing that they seem to forget."

Somebody needs to tell this dipshit that contrary to what he thinks, kids are not property and the state does have a legitimate right to insure their safety.

[TacticalPeek]

25. Tax scam.

Call it what it is.

[PartyPooper]

26. Please, somebody call Dolly Parton on this!

Sure as shootin,' she'll get to the bottom of these shenannigans.

Help is on the way!

O8)

[demdave]

27. Get Reno ...

She has experience in this.

[DoNotRefill]

36. Why does this comment remind me of a Dead Milkmen song?

"If you love somebody better set them on fire...."

:evilgrin:

[bobbyboucher]

71. How typically, Rushian stupid. Right on cue,

of course. You never fail to deliver the water.

[DoNotRefill]

31. OK, folks, let me ask y'all this.

Suppose, just suppose, that the armed guards weren't church members and ex-cops, but had been hired from a professional security firm like Wackenhut.

Would y'all still be so outraged?

[donsu]

34. yes - they were hired to protect the kids from atheists

that in itself is insane

[DoNotRefill]

35. That's NOT what the article says...

the article says they were hired to prevent vandalism and to provide security, NOT to keep athiests away from the children. The article also states that their security people frequently stop, question, and escort visitors to the campus. That suggests that it has a fair amount of visitors, which does indeed suggest that security might be a good idea.

[xchrom]

40. not all public schools have armed guards

and certainly few day schools for young children -- there is another agenda at work here -- and one i suspect only the church can fathom.
i don't even want to LIVE next door to some one with a gun because i will never ever know that person well enough to feel safe around them -- let alone drop a very young child of mine at a place where people are roaming around with guns.
now -- i won't dispute it's there right -- it maybe but i will suspect the parenting skills of the participants and the people who run the joint.
humans are way too fallible to mix guns and children like this.

[DoNotRefill]

41. not meaning this as an insult...

I think you're a touch paranoid.

If you live in the US, odds are pretty good that at least one of your neighbors has a gun. Something like HALF of all households in the US contain at least one firearm. There are 80 to 100 million gun owners in the country, and around 300 million guns.

In the last year in which figures are available from the government, there were FEWER THAN 800 ACCIDENTAL DEATHS involving firearms TOTAL, out of a population of almost 300 million. Accidental deaths of children make up a small percentage of those fewer than 800 deaths. LITERALLY, more children die each year by falling into untended 5 gallon plastic pickle buckets than are accidentally shot and killed. There were fewer than 8,000 homicides involving firearms in that year. By far, the most common situation in which a firearm was involved in a death is suicide. That's over double the homicide rate. So, being generous, that's fewer than 30,000 firearms deaths TOTAL (suicide, homicide, accidental deaths) per year, out of a population of how many?

[DoNotRefill]

45. It's a very rare school....

that doesn't have at least a DARE officer there...and DARE officers carry guns.

[KAZ]

58. Did you read the FN story?

You accept this "vandal" crap. Give me a break.

Edit: spelling.

[DoNotRefill]

61. sure did...

and I wonder...is YOUR church State-approved?

[KAZ]

63. OK. I'm hearing some Libertarian thoughts here...

...which I completely empathize with, but please except my opinion that we're way beyond the esoteric arguments of that philosophy. These are folks that would take you out if they had the chance(read American Taliban). They just don't wear a turban.

Edit:spelling

[DoNotRefill]

64. what do you base that on?

"These are folks that would take you out if they had the chance(read American Taliban)."

I've got a long-time friend who is now a VERY fundie Pentecostal. He used to have pretty normal religious beliefs, but went through some terribly trying times, and turned to funamentalist religious ideology to help himself find solace/stay sane.

We used to share the same religious outlook (basically militant agnosticism). We're still friends. The extent of his efforts to "convert" me involved an open invitation to come to his church. My wife and I went one time. It was weird (especially the speaking in tongues bit) but they were nice to me. He introduced me to his pastor as "my heathen friend." We all laughed, and discussed religion for a short while, but everybody was nice, and they didn't freak out when I told them I was pro-choice (a big no-no in their religious structure). I know there were guns there (my friend was armed, both my wife and I were armed as usual, and I know some of the other people were armed too) in the church at the time, and no firefight broke out. The worst part of it was the huge amount of mucus produced by crying people, but that wasn't particularly dangerous, just strange.

Just because somebody has religious beliefs that are strange to you or to everybody doesn't mean that they're mass murderers or child molesters, does it?

[DoNotRefill]

56. Folks...Just because these people are fundies...

doesn't mean that they are a) bad people, b) criminals, or c) have different rights than the rest of us.

If these folks were Wiccan, Muslims, or whatever else, y'all would be enraged about this.

[TankLV]

72. Fundies are fundies - they are ALL bad for humanity.

You haven't been paying attention to all the "good" (yeah, right) these so-called fundies of any denomination have been doing thru-out history.

The world would be a lot better off without ANY fundies.

Oh - I forgot - WACKO FUNDIES - because that is what they all are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Is this the camp

you are referring to:

vacation bible gun camp
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0703/biblecamp.html


:wtf:

[RetroLounge]

60. When all hell breaks out and kids die

remember, guns don't kill, whacked out fundie rednecks with guns kill...

It is an important distinction, after all...

RL

[DoNotRefill]

62. What makes you think all hell is going to break loose?

Here's an update:

http://tennessean.com/local/archives/04/05/51583416.shtml?Element_ID=51583416

They're litigating the matter, and allowed an inspection once htey got a court order.

What ever happened to the separation of Church and State?

What's next, requiring state approval of the church's teachings?

Why is the State inspecting churches?

[bobbyboucher]

70. What? Are you the "Koresh" of that luny bin?

How much defending of that idiot training camp are you going to give?